AutoElectNG:


The bolded did not apply to voltage tests, but to continuity checks. if you don't you get flawed results, can even destroy delicate electronics.

Your ECM is working so far, that is why it has gone into fail-safe mode, its self-test checks still run, we want to change the test conditions so that the ECM can give the oxygen sensor sub-systems a pass instead of a fail, that is the whole essence of what we have been doing about the P1135,P1155 and P0161

Awesome. I think continuity tests for the oxygen sensors will not destroy delicate electronics because the sensor connector is disconnected from the battery supply, sensor is hooked only to the CAT, so it's almost like bench testing. The continuity test for the wire harness also from the FSM directives will not destroy any electronic components since you also need to disconnect the wire harness connector to the ECM that supplies it battery voltage. Also note for continuity test you don't have the ignition ON, so I suppose there will be no battery voltage powering any sub-system or components that are designed to have power only when the ignition is ON. I hope I am making some sense, if not kindly give your opinion.

As for the ECM working or not, when I wanted to test for voltage and pulled out E10 connector and then put the ignition ON, the 2 radiator fans come on without starting the engine. When I put the E10 connector back the fans don't come on with the ignition on ON position, so I am thinking if connecting and disconnecting the E10 connector from the ECM can put the radiator fans ON/OFF doesn't that mean the ECM and that specific connector is doing its job. It's one of the connectors for the downstream sensor. So if it can control the fan properly, it should control the sensor since they are both on the same 'plug in' but of course different pins/terminals.

I hope the ECM is only in a fail safe mode and not destroyed. Changing ECM seem to be another ball game entirely as regards to VIN, keys and and other vital car information stored in the car's ECM.

olaboy1:


Awesome. I think continuity tests for the oxygen sensors will not destroy delicate electronics because the sensor connector is disconnected from the battery supply, sensor is hooked only to the CAT, so it's almost like bench testing.

Correct but to avoid voltage spikes and attendant consequences,good practice dictates disconnect battery before any work on vehicle circuits, example disconnecting the oxygen sensor connector from the oxygen sensor itself

The continuity test for the wire harness also from the FSM directives will not destroy any electronic components since you also need to disconnect the wire harness connector to the ECM that supplies it battery voltage.

Correct, but see note above.

Also note for continuity test you don't have the ignition ON, so I suppose there will be no battery voltage powering any sub-system or components that are designed to have power only when the ignition is ON. I hope I am making some sense, if not kindly give your opinion.

making sense but many systems have what is called Keep Alive Memory, also it is not entirely true that because the ignition is not on that there is no battery voltage!

In some cars, without the ignition being turned on the radio works!

Follow best practice in note 1 above if you want to be safe not sorry.

As for the ECM working or not, when I wanted to test for voltage and pulled out E10 connector and then put the ignition ON, the 2 radiator fans come on without starting the engine. When I put the E10 connector back the fans don't come on with the ignition on ON position, so I am thinking if connecting and disconnecting the E10 connector from the ECM can put the radiator fans ON/OFF doesn't that mean the ECM and that specific connector is doing its job. It's one of the connectors for the downstream sensor. So if it can control the fan properly, it should control the sensor since they are both on the same 'plug in' but of course different pins/terminals.

The thing about the fans is normal! Experienced same before more than once! To prove it, reconnect the connector and turn on the ignition, and the fans will not turn on!

Guess you did not disconnect the battery hence this, that is not correct protocol!

I hope the ECM is only in a fail safe mode and not destroyed. Changing ECM seem to be another ball game entirely as regards to VIN, keys and and other vital car information stored in the car's ECM.

a component in the ECM can fail and yet the car can run, if it not an absolute must component for the ride to drive.

Gotten great difficulty obtaining the part numbers for your ride, but still searching.

Worst case scenario, you might have to contact the dealer for the part numbers

Thanks for the clarification. I have now done the voltage test correctly at the ECM connector using back probe pins and ignition ON, I have 11.9v in all the FSM directives for P1135/P1155/P0141/P0161.FSM requirement is 9-14v
So I guess we can rule out a bad ECM at this stage.
Within first 1-2 mins of starting my car, I had so much water gushing out from the exhaust like you are trying to wet some flowers with a hose and then it stops after engine is properly warmed up with just drops of water and not gushing of water.

olaboy1:
Thanks for the clarification. I have now done the voltage test correctly at the ECM connector using back probe pins and ignition ON, I have 11.9v in all the FSM directives for P1135/P1155/P0141/P0161.FSM requirement is 9-14v
So I guess we can rule out a bad ECM at this stage.
Within first 1-2 mins of starting my car, I had so much water gushing out from the exhaust like you are trying to wet some flowers with a hose and then it stops after engine is properly warmed up with just drops of water and not gushing of water.

Good job, we are getting there!

We have now confirmed that the ECM can indeed control the control the heater circuit, but when it attempts to, it encounters and abnormality!

To troubleshoot P1135/P1155, the next step is to investigate the sensor for this abnormality.

Remember that our analysis pointed to a bad heater circuit

This video will help you check the sensor to determine if it is good, if it is not good, then it has to be replaced! And then the monitors will give it a pass!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Kr-c8eBl5E

Do the same thing for Bank 1 sensor 1 and Bank 2 sensor 1

There are 4 stages of this troubleshooting.
1. ECM
2. Sensor
3. Wire harness
4. Relay

I have done 1, I want to skip 2 for now because I want to take all the sensors out from the CAT to check if I can find the part numbers and manufacturers names on them, just to 100% ascertain that I have the right sensors installed on this car.
So I am thinking of checking all the 4 wire harnesses for continuity. Do I need a voltage test at the connector side of the wire harness that plugs into the sensor connector (by voltage test on the wire harnesses I mean when it's connected to the ECM with the ignition ON). I want to know if indeed the 11.9v coming from the ECM under the pigeon hole actually travels through the wire harness up to its connector in the engine bay.

Once I am able to eliminate 1 and 3, I can then go ahead and take out the oxygen sensors of course I already know one of the upstream sensors is the wrong one. I don't know the history of the oxygen sensors in this car, so pulling them out and making sure they are manufacturer's spec will help me to move in the right direction to the next culprit. I am going to see a dealer and ask about the part numbers.

I have been looking at our local used parts website when I did a google search for this car make, model and year, and two part numbers kept popping up. Although I plan on buying brand new OEM sensors if mine are bad or not manufacturers spec
89465-44050
89465-44060

What's your take on this. I am particular on taking the sensors out because I have seen several videos of people stuck because they didn't realize they have the wrong sensors in the car. It's difficult to do any visual inspection of the sensors without taking them out.

olaboy1:
There are 4 stages of this troubleshooting.
1. ECM
2. Sensor
3. Wire harness
4. Relay

According to the FSM, for the downstream that is true.

It appears not to be true for the upstream.

I have done 1, I want to skip 2 for now because I want to take all the sensors out from the CAT to check if I can find the part numbers and manufacturers names on them, just to 100% ascertain that I have the right sensors installed on this car.

Good move. But proper organization is a must so you don't mix them up

So I am thinking of checking all the 4 wire harnesses for continuity. Do I need a voltage test at the connector side of the wire harness that plugs into the sensor connector (by voltage test on the wire harnesses I mean when it's connected to the ECM with the ignition ON). I want to know if indeed the 11.9v coming from the ECM under the pigeon hole actually travels through the wire harness up to its connector in the engine bay.

What you need if you want to check the wire harnesses for continuity is a resistance test, remember continuity means current flows, if current can flow, forget voltage test, you are already covered, guess why? Study the relationship between current and voltage!

You don't want to fry the ECM, so you must disconnect the battery, and disconnect the harness from the ECM. If it passes the continuity test between the sensor connector and the ECM connector, the ECM can command the sensor. Since a fault at the ECM end has been ruled out.

Electronics are delicate, please don't try this test with the ignition on and the battery connected!


Better be safe than sorry!

You might have to take some notes to map each of the 4 wires of the oxygen sensor to the respective pins at the ECM and we can bet your multi-meter pins are not long enough, so you will need extensions.

Remember to disconnect the battery when doing this test!

Once I am able to eliminate 1 and 3, I can then go ahead and take out the oxygen sensors of course I already know one of the upstream sensors is the wrong one. I don't know the history of the oxygen sensors in this car, so pulling them out and making sure they are manufacturer's spec will help me to move in the right direction to the next culprit. I am going to see a dealer and ask about the part numbers.
[/qoute]
Cool
[quote]
I have been looking at our local used parts website for this car make, model and year, and two part numbers kept popping up.
89465-44050
89465-44060

What's your take on this. I am particular on taking the sensors out because I have seen several videos of people stuck because they didn't realize they have the wrong sensors in the car. It's difficult to do any visual inspection of the sensors without taking them out.

Good move!

Alright I will skip the continuity test for the wire harness for now since if I follow the FSM I might need very long wires to get the DMM to reach.
I have been to Toyota company now service department and I now have the sensor manufacturer's spec and requirements.
They told me it's not possible to have all my sensors go bad at once, but I am curious to find out what the real problem is with this car.

Upstream A/F sensors Denso OEM
89465-42020 ---------->89465-44030
Downstream oxygen sensors
89465-44050 ----------->89465-44060

One of my upstream sensors bought by my old mechanic is reading Denso 89465-20790, this is why it's very good to take control of the management of your stuffs. Imagine if this was an aircraft and a poor mechanic judgment and call on spare parts would be a colossal loss of lives.

So I am moving on to step 2 to do 100% sensor checks. You can see this is an eye opener that even though the upstream sensor is Toyota and Denso and has the proper ohms reading for a downstream sensor, putting it in my car as a downstream sensor would still not work.
Hence why I need to check the sensor part numbers, correct readings don't equal right sensors.

olaboy1:
Alright I will skip the continuity test for the wire harness for now since if I follow the FSM I might need very long wires to get the DMM to reach.
I have been to Toyota company now service department and I now have the sensor manufacturer's spec and requirements.
They told me it's not possible to have all my sensors go bad at once, but I am curious to find out what the real problem is with this car.

Upstream A/F sensors Denso OEM
89465-42020 ---------->89465-44030
Downstream oxygen sensors
89465-44050 ----------->89465-44060

One of my upstream sensors bought by my old mechanic is reading Denso 89465-20790, this is why it's very good to take control of the management of your stuffs. Imagine if this was an aircraft and a poor mechanic judgment and call on spare parts would be a colossal loss of lives.

So I am moving on to step 2 to do 100% sensor checks. You can see this is an eye opener that even though the upstream sensor is Toyota and Denso and has the proper ohms reading for a downstream sensor, putting it in my car as a downstream sensor would still not work.
Hence why I need to check the sensor part numbers, correct readings don't equal right sensors.

Awaiting feedback!

AutoElectNG:


The monitors have to run before you can absolutely declare that the codes are gone!

how do u mean?
pls explain in layman terms.

tunde783:


how do u mean?
pls explain in layman terms.

https://www.nairaland.com/3661728/on-board-diagnostics-obd-ii-questions/3#54612233 Explains monitors

Applying the concept to your problem P0016
https://www.nairaland.com/3661728/on-board-diagnostics-obd-ii-questions/5

I have the sensors now.
Upstream sensors
Bank 1 sensor 1: 89465-20790
Bank 2 sensor 1: 89467-42020
Downstream sensors
Bank 1 sensor 2: 89465-44050
Bank 2 sensor 2: 89465-44060

Toyota manufacturer's specification
Upstream sensors 1 (89465-42020 |-| 89465-44030)
Downstream sensors 2 (89465-44050 |-| 89465-44060)

All the 4 sensors I pulled out from my car have electrical black tape they have used to connect the sensors to the connectors, I thought the sensors are supposed to be plug and play if they are manufacturer's spec for this car. I need to find out from the old mechanic what exactly happened.
Also remember I told you my car runs on a petrol engine and the engine Idles like a Diesel engine. When the two upstream sensors were taken off and I started the car, that Diesel engine sound increased by 25%, and finally when the 2 downstream sensors were taken off the Diesel engine sound increased by 50% more like a car without an exhaust. This makes me to feel my car is suffering from sensor problems.
How do we proceed.

See pixs

The sensor wires were actually cut to replace them with the brand new sensors that didn't come with any connectors.
One of the wrongly replaced upstream sensors 89465-20790 had a wrong Volvo sensor with part number 8202209 CEN523310 there before.

So it looks like we have two wrong upstream sensors.
The downstream sensors seem to be the spec for my car and maybe that's why I didn't get DTC P0141 Bank 1 sensor 2, but I got DTC P0161 for Bank 2 sensor 2.

Let me know if you need more information

apply the test conducted in the last video and paste the results here

AutoElectNG:
apply the test conducted in the last video and paste the results here

Are the downstream sensors part number specific, what I mean is I have two part numbers 89465-44050 and 89465-44060 for the 2 downstream sensors, are they bank specific or it doesn't matter which banks I put them as long as they are installed after the CAT.

Downstream sensors (89465-44050 and 89465-44060)
Bank 1 sensor 2: 13.9ohms and I got beep for continuity
Bank 2 sensor 2: 13.2ohms and I got beep for continuity

I will do a voltage test for them later by using kitchen gas to heat them up and watch how voltage drops and go up with introduction and removal of heat.

Do I still need to test the upstream sensors since they don't meet manufacturer's part number spec.

olaboy1:
The sensor wires were actually cut to replace them with the brand new sensors that didn't come with any connectors.
One of the wrongly replaced upstream sensors 89465-20790 had a wrong Volvo sensor with part number 8202209 CEN523310 there before.

So it looks like we have two wrong upstream sensors.
The downstream sensors seem to be the spec for my car and maybe that's why I didn't get DTC P0141 Bank 1 sensor 2, but I got DTC P0161 for Bank 2 sensor 2.

Let me know if you need more information

That is because those were not an exact fit.

Right now it is clear that you need to purchase two upstream sensors with the right part numbers.

So the only test you need to conduct as shown in that video is on the sensor responsible for P0161, but given the age of the vehicle and a lack of knowledge as to previous maintenance practices, and the need to start on a clean slate, it is highly recommended that you consider purchasing all four and replacing all four but you can keep the sensor that would otherwise have caused a P0141 DTC to be set if it were bad, but that isn't.

All the same can you please conduct that test on the sensor responsible for P0161, so we have be conclusive on the state/status of that sensor?

olaboy1:
I have the sensors now.
Upstream sensors
Bank 1 sensor 1: 89465-20790
Bank 2 sensor 1: 89467-42020
Downstream sensors
Bank 1 sensor 2: 89465-44050
Bank 2 sensor 2: 89465-44060

Toyota manufacturer's specification
Upstream sensors 1 (89465-42020 |-| 89465-44030)
Downstream sensors 2 (89465-44050 |-| 89465-44060)

All the 4 sensors I pulled out from my car have electrical black tape they have used to connect the sensors to the connectors, I thought the sensors are supposed to be plug and play if they are manufacturer's spec for this car. I need to find out from the old mechanic what exactly happened.
Also remember I told you my car runs on a petrol engine and the engine Idles like a Diesel engine. When the two upstream sensors were taken off and I started the car, that Diesel engine sound increased by 25%, and finally when the 2 downstream sensors were taken off the Diesel engine sound increased by 50% more like a car without an exhaust. This makes me to feel my car is suffering from sensor problems.
How do we proceed.

For every application, we have exact fit and universal, universal involves wire splicing. Sadly, in your case, the wrong sensors were used so they are not even a fit, so must be replaced.

Are you sure you don't have an exhaust leak or exhaust manifolds improperly tightened?

No point starting the car with the sensors off!

olaboy1:


Are the downstream sensors part number specific, what I mean is I have two part numbers 89465-44050 and 89465-44060 for the 2 downstream sensors, are they bank specific or it doesn't matter which banks I put them as long as they are installed after the CAT.

Downstream sensors (89465-44050 and 89465-44060)
Bank 1 sensor 2: 13.9ohms and I got beep for continuity
Bank 2 sensor 2: 13.2ohms and I got beep for continuity

I will do a voltage test for them later by using kitchen gas to heat them up and watch how voltage drops and go up with introduction and removal of heat.

Do I still need to test the upstream sensors since they don't meet manufacturer's part number spec.

Yes they tend to be application specific. So we don't recommend switching them.

How do the results you have obtained compare to what the manual states the outcome ought to be?

No need to test the upstream sensors, all you need to do is to replace them!

The earlier response to test all 4 was hurriedly drafted, after taking time to check out your responses, it is unnecessary.

olaboy1:
How do we proceed.

Provide results of tests 2 - 4 of the m_05_0057 file

AutoElectNG:

For every application, we have exact fit and universal, universal involves wire splicing. Sadly, in your case, the wrong sensors were used so they are not even a fit, so must be replaced.

Are you sure you don't have an exhaust leak or exhaust manifolds improperly tightened?

No point starting the car with the sensors off!

They needed to roll some cars into the service bay, so I had to drive mine out to the parking lot outside. They only took the car in to put it on the hydraulic lifter just to pull the downstream sensors out. The two upstream were taken out outside in the parking lot and I had to drive the car into the service bay like that and that was when I noticed the changes in engine sound.
I inspected the entire exhaust system when the car was on the hydraulic lift and no leakage whatsoever. Exhaust leakages are very easy to spot when you are under the car, as you see black carbon.

AutoElectNG:

Yes they tend to be application specific. So we don't recommend switching them.

How do the results you have obtained compare to what the manual states the outcome ought to be?

No need to test the upstream sensors, all you need to do is to replace them!

The earlier response to test all 4 was hurriedly drafted, after taking time to check out your responses, it is unnecessary.

The results for the downstream sensors came out within the manual spec of 11-16ohms

P0141: 13.9ohms with continuity (P/n 89465-44050)
P0161: 13.2ohms with continuity (P/n 89465-44060)

In other news.

Why should the car owner care about OBD II?

We are going to cut and paste some material here to help answer that question!

All material posted courtesy The Vector Congress Stuttgart,Germany

No electricals/electronics - no modern day vehicle!

Figure 1 and 2 referenced in earlier posts

I really want to make sure the downstream sensors are in good working condition because they are the most expensive quotation I got from Toyota.
The upstream sensors no doubt I'm gonna shop for those brand new OEM from Toyota. Everything costs almost 2 times here in Europe compared to USA. My 4 sensors are like $1150 where as in the states they probably cost around $600 for the 4.

My downstream sensors passed the test in the video you posted.

Do I need a propane gas or kitchen gas voltage tests for the downstream sensors?
I read the voltage for the downstream sensor doesn't oscillates, it stays stable
I am still interested in the FSM that specifically shows and explains changing of sensors in this car. Just like it shows in the body repairs, it's so explanatory.

olaboy1:
See pixs

Carefully unwrap the electrical tape and check for any of two wires making contact with each other and repair such an abnormality

AutoElectNG:
According to the manual

All three DTCs cause the PCM/ECU to turn off the heater circuit in which there is an abnormality. The circuit will be turned on again once the ignition switch is off

DTC No.
P0161/29
P1135/21
P1155/28

You may notice that there are two more digits after the 5 digit DTC.

The first of the two characters in the symptom code is the category number. This pertains to general category of the fault.

What does the 2 stand for? 2 is for frequency pulse width modulated failure.

The second of the two-character code is the subtype character.

21 and 28 Stands for Oxygen sensor signal/oxygen sensor heater signal open or short in oxygen sensor or oxygen sensor signal

Could not find a reference to 29, so the question is was 29 a mistake, should it have been 28?

P0161 ends with 27 and not 29 from m_05_0018
P0141 ends with 27 also from m_05_0018
What do we make out of this.

olaboy1:


P0161 ends with 27 and not 29 from m_05_0018
P0141 ends with 27 also from m_05_0018
What do we make out of this.

Non-issue - unwrap and check wire connections as above

olaboy1:
I really want to make sure the downstream sensors are in good working condition because they are the most expensive quotation I got from Toyota.
The upstream sensors no doubt I'm gonna shop for those brand new OEM from Toyota. Everything costs almost 2 times here in Europe compared to USA. My 4 sensors are like $1150 where as in the states they probably cost around $600 for the 4.

My downstream sensors passed the test in the video you posted.

Do I need a propane gas or kitchen gas voltage tests for the downstream sensors?
I read the voltage for the downstream sensor doesn't oscillates, it stays stable
I am still interested in the FSM that specifically shows and explains changing of sensors in this car. Just like it shows in the body repairs, it's so explanatory.

Buy them from America, they will be cheaper, freight inclusive. Unless your calculations prove otherwise, then you are stuck.

We want to assume that the upstream sensors had been changed but the downstream are stock from factory, if that is the case, they are tired. Oxygen sensors don't last forever.

Even if it reads well, but it has become less sensitive, it can give the ECM information that it considers suspect and so it still sets up a code or might be sluggish.

At over 200,000 kilometers, you should seriously consider replacing them all

Infographic source: http://www.buyautoparts.com/howto/oxygen-sensor-life-expectancy.htm

Here is a second opinion: http://www.ngkplugpro.ca/content/contentfiles/pdf/NTKO2-0308-1LifeExpectancyofOxygenSensors.pdf

Please, where in Lagos I can one be trained in Mechatronics (How to diagnose all cars)
Pls, "good trainers" in the house can contact me via the following telephone numbers: 07039368271, 08078337714.
Thanks to you all.

I am getting a conflicting report on the ohms for the downstream sensors.
FSM m_05_0092 is saying the specified ohms condition reading should be 5 to 10 ohms for P0141, and m_05_0057 for P0161 is saying 11-16ohms.