The Gospel of John 

The highest Christology

“Low Christology”/ “High Christology”

“Christology” – the theological understanding of “the Christ” – what Messiahship means.
“Low Christology” – a Christology “from below”: based on the understanding of the historical Jesus’ earliest followers.
Titles: messiah, rabbi, prophet, son of man, lord, son of God (the latter two without theological definition).
Characteristics of Jesus: a charismatic teacher, healer, worker of miracles, messiah, raised from death by God.
“Low Christology” is characteristic of the Synoptic tradition.

Matthew and Luke add a divine origin to Jesus’ birth: son of God from his conception – his virginal conception -- (but still without theological definition).

“High Christology” – a Christology “from above”: based on visions, personal revelations, less (or not at all) on historical testimony.
Titles: Savior, Lord, Son of God, Word of God, Lamb of God, Equal to the Father, and finally, God.
Characteristics: divine figure in human form (incarnate God), absolute knowledge of others, power over life and death.
“High Christology” is characteristic of Paul and of Gospel of John.


The Fourth Gospel
A very different Jesus from the Synoptic gospels.
Written in opposition to the Synoptics?
Last written of the canonical gospels.
From perspective of Gospel of John, did the Synoptics get Jesus wrong?
Written in a culture with different philosophical, cultural expectations.
But also written in opposition to Gnosticism and gnostic Christology.
Jesus is human, has human flesh, but is essentially God.
Instead of pericopés of teaching that go back to the historical Jesus, long theological discourses --
-- mainly centering on Jesus’ identity and nature.



John and the Synoptics
About 90 percent different from Synoptics.
Most of that 10 percent overlap centers on Passion narrative (but even here significant differences).
Portrays overlapping ministries of Jesus and John the Baptist.
Chasing money changers from Temple happens at beginning of Jesus’ ministry.
Portrays three Passovers.
Gives Jesus a ministry in Judea (around Jerusalem) -- synoptics see Jesus centered in Galilee.
Puts the Last Supper before Passover.
Contains very few of the Synoptic miracles.
And hardly any of the Synoptic sayings.
Instead a different set of miracles.
And long discourses.
 

Least historical of the gospels

Because of its rejection of the Synoptic tradition, scholars are generally suspicious of its historical character.
The discourses don’t address the culture and context of the Jewish world of Jesus and disciples.
It seems rather a late and highly theologized account.
But there are some independent Palestinian traditions.
And it’s fairly accurate in its Palestinian geography.
So it may come from Syrian or northern Palestinian traditions.
And it may contain some historical traditions about the historical Jesus – may not be just a late and highly theologized account.
But it is a late and highly theologized account.
In effect, a “channeling” of the risen Jesus; the writer is giving us what he believes is the essential nature of Jesus
 
Who wrote John, and when?
Gospel not mentioned by anyone before 180 C.E.
Earlier biblical scholarship assumed it was written mid-second century.
But papyrus fragments of gospel dated 125-150 C.E. discovered in Egypt.
So gospel must have been written before this time.
Gospel is aware of the expulsion of Christians from synagogues, 85 to 90 C.E.
Written perhaps 90 to 100 C.E.
Irenaeus, c. 180 C.E. says gospel written by John, son of Zebedee – on the authority of Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna.
But does Mark 10: 39 imply John would be martyred, along with his brother James? (James, son of Zebedee, killed by Herod, around 44 – Acts 12: 1).


Who? 
There’s another John, John the Elder at Ephesus, circa 100 C.E., who is mention by Papias.
Gospel nowhere mentions authorship by a “John,” but at the end claims connection to “the beloved disciple”: “This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true.”
So the gospel (or an editorial appendix) connects the gospel in some way with the authority of “the beloved disciple.”
Who would have been extremely old in 90 to 100 CE, presumably too old in any case for literary endeavor.
Gospel wants to claim connection to the unnamed “beloved disciple.”
But the rejection of the Synoptic tradition makes this puzzling.
And the mystical character of the gospel makes authorship puzzling.
Writer seems to have more a mystical than historical connection with Jesus.
A writer with a visionary sense of the “real” Jesus, the Jesus whom the merely historical Synoptics got wrong?
In this sense someone like Paul, but two generations later, who links his mystical Christ to Palestinian traditions?
So, finally, an anonymous writer whom the text connects with “the beloved disciple.”


Narrative character of John

Another “reader challenging” gospel, like Mark (though otherwise very different from Mark).
No actual parables, but stories to be interpreted as parables, puzzles for the reader.
All centered on the identity, nature of Jesus.
Full of symbolic language: “light,” “truth,” “water,” “vine,” “spirit,” “flesh.”
Longer speeches, discourses by Jesus.
Punctuated by an essentially new set of miracles, arranged in ascending order.
Culminating in the raising of Lazarus.
And the puzzle of how one ingests, takes in, this divine figure.




John’s mystical prologue
Beginning of John: no infancy gospel.
Matthew and Luke begin with J’s birth, then through genealogies to Abraham (Matt.) and to Adam (Luke).
John pushes J’s origin back even further, “In the beginning” – echoing Genesis!
“Word” – Logos – Gk. means something like Reason, Speech, Thought.
So the true origin of the Christ is the pre-existent Logos of God; Jesus is the enfleshment (incarnation) of that Logos in human form.
All very philosophical, very Greek.
But relates to the idea of God’s Wisdom in Hebrew Scriptures.




Proverbs 8:22-31: the Wisdom of God

The Lord created me [Wisdom ] at the beginning of his work,

    The first of his acts of long ago.

Ages ago I was set up,

    At the first, before the beginning of the earth.

When there were no depths I was brought forth,

    When there were no springs abounding with water.

Before the mountains had been shaped,

    Before the hills, I was brought forth –

When he had not yet made earth and fields,

    Or the world’s first bits of soil.





When he established the heavens, I was there,

    When he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

When he made firm the skies above,

    When he established the fountains of the deep,

When he assigned the sea its limit,

    So that the waters might not transgress his command,

When he marked out the foundations of the earth,

    Then I was beside him, like a master worker;

And I was daily his delight,

    Rejoicing before him always,

Rejoicing in his inhabited world

    And delighting in the human race. 





The idea of Wisdom (Sophia in Greek) is also developed in the Book of Wisdom in the Apocrypha.
John takes this Hebraic idea of Wisdom and translates it into the Greek philosophical terminology of Logos.
Then asserts that the human person of Jesus was the enfleshment of that divine principle.
It’s a long distance from the Synoptic “son of Man,” “Son of God.”
But see the Pauline letter to Colossians (1: 15-17):
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him all things in the heaven and in the earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions, or rulers or powers – all things have been created through him and for him.  He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together . . .”





John the Baptist
Interesting that the gospel begins by insisting that John the Baptist is not the Christ, but only bears witness to the Christ.
Why still a concern late in the first century?
Remember Acts 19 mentions the existence of a group that still followed John the Baptist's teachings in Ephesus.
All the gospels are concerned to show John the Baptist in a subordinate role to Jesus.
The first episode in John enacts the turn from John the Baptist and his teaching to Jesus as true light.
Note the conclusion in the two disciples of John leaving him and following Jesus.
One turns out to be Andrew, the brother of Peter, who becomes the link between Peter and Jesus.
Then the calling of Philip and Nathanael (who is not mentioned in the synoptics).
Jesus' first prediction here is not of suffering and death, as in Mark, but in a divine glorification (1:51)

Deep Sight:

Altogether you will agree that these things read similar to some psuedo oriental myth. But the force of history is such that these things are cherished as inviolable truth. A few days ago i told my colleague that the Bible does not teach that Jesus is God. She glared at me with wide eyed consternation and asked me to keep my distance, for such heresy. This same person will scoff at the claims of Olumba Olumba Obu to be God, forgetting that if a foreign nation invaded Nigeria today, and adopetd Olumba Obu's sect as its state religion, hundreds of years down the line many millions of people influenced by that foreign power would believe unconditionlly and dogmatocally that Olumba Olumba Obu is God.

KunleOshob:

You see what brainwashiing causes. Yet if you ask the girl to show you one single scripture in the bible where Jesus claims to be God she would start adding 2+2 to get 10.

Deep Sight:

The truth is that no amount of intellectualism can save anyone, if anything at all i am certain that it stands in the way. That simple rural person stands a much better chance of finding and understanding Truth in all its great simplicity than any erudition can muster.

That's why i despise the sort of christianity that requires people to accept dogma they know nothing about.

Why should anyone for eaxample have to know anything about ANY of the following rituals -

  1. Supposed Adamic sin, via which the entire human race is labelled "guilty."

  2. Animal Sacrifices (OT) for temporary freedom from that supposed guilt

  3. The supposed incarnation of the Almighty GOD on earth as a Jewish man. . . (Olumba Olumba Obu. .  . Guru Maharaji. . . similar claims. . .)

  4. The supposed immaculate conception via which the said Jewish man entered the world without any prior act of copulation on the part of his supposed parents

  5. The judicial murder of that Jewish man along with some criminals and the supposition that the murder in question amounts to "salvation" for the whole world

  6. The paganistic Trinity Doctrine

Altogether you will agree that these things read similar to some psuedo oriental myth. But the force of history is such that these things are cherished as inviolable truth. A few days ago i told my colleague that the Bible does not teach that Jesus is God. She glared at me with wide eyed consternation and asked me to keep my distance, for such heresy. This same person will scoff at the claims of Olumba Olumba Obu to be God, forgetting that if a foreign nation invaded Nigeria today, and adopetd Olumba Obu's sect as its state religion, hundreds of years down the line many millions of people influenced by that foreign power would believe unconditionlly and dogmatocally that Olumba Olumba Obu is God.

It would have been comical if it were not so sad. The sad bit being that millions of people actually feel free to lead thoroughly sinful lives on the presupposition that Christ "has saved them" already on the cross.

Love, and only love is the way.

Deep Sight:

Chris - Your thoughts are entirely valid.

And indeed it must make the thoughtful person wonder what exactly GOD would require of mankind. And by mankind i mean the WHOLE of mankind.

Methinks sincerity of heart and earnestness are the best that could be required.

Not subscription to improbable and outlandish foreign legends.

VALIDATOR:

Well,whether we like it or not we must from the early years of our lives subscribe to some dogma. A little child learns only by listening to adults. But if when you are grown up and equipped with analytical abilities you still wish to believe in a talking snake in a fictitious garden its up to you.

[b]One of the most silly thing is the claim of being led by a single perfect omniscient holy spirit and yet contradictory interpretations. [/b]RRRRRRUBBISH

VALIDATOR:

Well,whether we like it or not we must from the early years of our lives subscribe to some dogma. A little child learns only by listening to adults. But if when you are grown up and equipped with analytical abilities you still wish to believe in a talking snake in a fictitious garden its up to you.

noetic15:

u should simply ask urself. . .how does the holy spirit speak? and what does he say?. . .how then can there be numerous interpretations of what he says?

stop celebrating your ignorance.

VALIDATOR:

Well,whether we like it or not we must from the early years of our lives subscribe to some dogma. A little child learns only by listening to adults. But if when you are grown up and equipped with analytical abilities you still wish to believe in a talking snake in a fictitious garden its up to you.

One of the most silly thing is the claim of being led by a single perfect omniscient holy spirit and yet contradictory interpretations. RRRRRRUBBISH

noetic15:

u should simply ask urself. . .how does the holy spirit speak? and what does he say?. . .how then can there be numerous interpretations of what he says?

stop celebrating your ignorance.

VALIDATOR:

You tell me brother. He speaks to you.

You tell us how the holy spirit speaks, If your holy spirit actually enables you guys to understand the bible why are their so many brands of christians and christianity? Shouldn\'t the holy spirit be sending the same signal and communicating the same message to all of you? The YEC says that it is the holy spirit that tells him that the earth is 6000 years old, The OEC also says that it is the same holy spirit that tells him that the earth is millions of years old. Why are there so many versions of Christianity that hardly agree on any thing? The many different sects and versions of Christianity stand as pretty strong evidence against an \"inspired understanding\" that comes from a single source. There is no such thing. If we grant the hypothetical of a holy ghost or holy spirit existing, then this entity is doing a really shitty job and should have been fired centuries ago.

You tell me brother. He speaks to you.

2Co 3:16  But whenever a person turns [in repentance] to the Lord, the veil is stripped off and taken away.
2Co 3:17  Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty (emancipation from bondage, freedom). [Isa. 61:1, 2.]
2Co 3:18  And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord [Who is] the Spirit.

Jas 1:21  So get rid of all uncleanness and the rampant outgrowth of wickedness, and in a humble (gentle, modest) spirit receive and welcome the Word which implanted and rooted [in your hearts] contains the power to save your souls.
Jas 1:22  But be doers of the Word [obey the message], and not merely listeners to it, betraying yourselves [into deception by reasoning contrary to the Truth].
Jas 1:23  For if anyone only listens to the Word without obeying it and being a doer of it, he is like a man who looks carefully at his [own] natural face in a mirror;
Jas 1:24  For he thoughtfully observes himself, and then goes off and promptly forgets what he was like.
Jas 1:25  But he who looks carefully into the faultless law, the [law] of liberty, and is faithful to it and perseveres in looking into it, being not a heedless listener who forgets but an active doer [who obeys], he shall be blessed in his doing (his life of obedience).
Jas 1:26  If anyone thinks himself to be religious (piously observant of the external duties of his faith) and does not bridle his tongue but deludes his own heart, this person's religious service is worthless (futile, barren).
Jas 1:27  External religious worship [religion as it is expressed in outward acts] that is pure and unblemished in the sight of God the Father is this: to visit and help and care for the orphans and widows in their affliction and need, and to keep oneself unspotted and uncontaminated from the world.

1Jn 3:14  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jn 3:15  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 3:16  Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1Jn 3:17  But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18  My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

1Co 8:1  NOW ABOUT food offered to idols: of course we know that all of us possess knowledge [concerning these matters. Yet mere] knowledge causes people to be puffed up (to bear themselves loftily and be proud), but love (affection and goodwill and benevolence) edifies and builds up and encourages one to grow [to his full stature].
1Co 8:2  If anyone imagines that he has come to know and understand much [of divine things, without love], he does not yet perceive and recognize and understand as strongly and clearly, nor has he become as intimately acquainted with anything as he ought or as is necessary.
1Co 8:3  But if one loves God truly [with affectionate reverence, prompt obedience, and grateful recognition of His blessing], he is known by God [recognized as worthy of His intimacy and love, and he is owned by Him].

2Co 3:16 But whenever a person turns [in repentance] to the Lord, the veil is stripped off and taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty (emancipation from bondage, freedom). [Isa. 61:1, 2.]
2Co 3:18 And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord [Who is] the Spirit.

Jas 1:21 So get rid of all uncleanness and the rampant outgrowth of wickedness, and in a humble (gentle, modest) spirit receive and welcome the Word which implanted and rooted [in your hearts] contains the power to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be doers of the Word [obey the message], and not merely listeners to it, betraying yourselves [into deception by reasoning contrary to the Truth].
Jas 1:23 For if anyone only listens to the Word without obeying it and being a doer of it, he is like a man who looks carefully at his [own] natural face in a mirror;
Jas 1:24 For he thoughtfully observes himself, and then goes off and promptly forgets what he was like.
Jas 1:25 But he who looks carefully into the faultless law, the [law] of liberty, and is faithful to it and perseveres in looking into it, being not a heedless listener who forgets but an active doer [who obeys], he shall be blessed in his doing (his life of obedience).
Jas 1:26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious (piously observant of the external duties of his faith) and does not bridle his tongue but deludes his own heart, this person's religious service is worthless (futile, barren).
Jas 1:27 External religious worship [religion as it is expressed in outward acts] that is pure and unblemished in the sight of God the Father is this: to visit and help and care for the orphans and widows in their affliction and need, and to keep oneself unspotted and uncontaminated from the world.

1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

1Co 8:1 NOW ABOUT food offered to idols: of course we know that all of us possess knowledge [concerning these matters. Yet mere] knowledge causes people to be puffed up (to bear themselves loftily and be proud), but love (affection and goodwill and benevolence) edifies and builds up and encourages one to grow [to his full stature].
1Co 8:2 If anyone imagines that he has come to know and understand much [of divine things, without love], he does not yet perceive and recognize and understand as strongly and clearly, nor has he become as intimately acquainted with anything as he ought or as is necessary.
1Co 8:3 But if one loves God truly [with affectionate reverence, prompt obedience, and grateful recognition of His blessing], he is known by God [recognized as worthy of His intimacy and love, and he is owned by Him].

noetic15 link=topic=368196.msg5143879#msg51
43879 date=1261179079:

1. I dont have to tell u how the spirit speaks since u also can experience it urself. All u have to do is get saved . . . , . the rest will follow.

2. Toneyb, u are conveniently ignoring the point here. where did the YEC or OEC claim that they heard from the holy spirit? why are u so certain that everyone hears from the holy spirit? what are the chances they could be lying?

3. The numerous sects and denomination in xtianity have no connection with the words of the spirit or the true intent of the gospel. The gospel is centered around salvation, the gift of eternity and the establishment of God\'s kingdom. This is a universal doctrine in xtiandom.
The spirit asks a person to start a ministry. . .he/she is given a message. . . he/she\'s ability to interpret the message is what we see manifest.

4. what is it the xtians do not agree on?

Let me come in here. . . .If the holy spirit truly communicates to people as you are claiming then why are you unable to tell us how he communicates to you personally? You should be able to do that no?  Or only are is the person that is making the claim about the holy spirit the only person that is able to understand the \\\"deeper\\\" truths christians claim exist within the holy spirit entity?

Have you read any of OLAADEGBU\\\'s post? He even makes the claim that accepting that the earth and the universe are both 6000 years old gives a person a proper foundation for believing in Jesus. . .He makes reference to the holy spirit and claims it is the one that is communicating to him with regards to this things on so many occasions. . . .Have you watch any of Ken Ham\\\'s debates? He evokes the holy spirit as his source of inspiration with regards to the age of the earth as 6000 all the time. . . . .

The numerous sects of christianity is an evidence that shows that the holy spirit is non existent. . . .The so called road to salvation is not even accepted by all christians, some believe that grace alone will save, some believe that grace and work will save, some believe that it is only god\\\'s will that can save a person etc. . . there is NO universal christian doctrine with regards to salvation every sect has his or her own interpretation and opinion. . . .Why does the holy spirit tell people to start different ministries?. . . .

The nature of Jesus is still in dispute. . . some believe he is the same person as god while others believe that he is not. .

Tudór:

Your Posts are unnecessarily long and boring. . . .conduct a poll and you'd find out most pple think so too. . .