I just want to start a new topic based on a post I saw on another thread from Tudor. Lets assume that the bible is true. Why did Yahweh create anything at all since the story of the bible consists mostly of god trying to correct his own mistakes, punishing Adam and Eve, the flood, sodom and gomorrha, fighting with men. killing them for disobedience, regretting that he created men, sending Jesus(Himself to die) for the sins of men etc. Christians mostly say that people were created for Yahweh's pleasure but what we see around is very contrary to that claim. according to the theory  humans are said to be created in "His image" hence we can comfortly use our "god-given" morals to judge Yahweh assuming he is our maker as well. Also the bible states Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowlage, the fruit of which is supposedly meant to give us some insight into what God himself considers good and evil, right? I think that would place me in quite a safe standing from which to judge the actions of God, by his own morals.

This really does not make any sense at all. Why did Yahweh make Adam knowing that Adam was going to screw-up then? And then going on blaming us, the supposed Adam's descendants for it. according to the story Yahweh created Adam with the ability to sin, and knowing he created Adam with this ability, he placed a "forbidden garden" in his presence  and allowed his enemy to go inside the garden and tempt eve without her having any knowledge of what is right or what is wrong? Isn't that a bit like giving children gasoline and matches and telling them, "you are forbidden to play with those" and sending your enemy whom they do not know about to tell them other wise? I'm not omniscient, but even I can predict the outcome of that little experiment, so why blame humans if this ridiculous theory is true? He should blame himself, as he could have changed it no?   
Personally this hypothesis just points to some story made up by some desperately unhappy people who need hope for happiness in a fairytale future away from this earth but I just want to hear from the mouth of Christians and I want them to tell me why Yahweh created the universe If we are to go by what we see around and what the bible really says.

Toney - stop fixating on the Abrahamic legends. Every tribe has its legends and we needn't presume Jewish legends to be any truer than Yoruba or Igbo legends.

As to why God would create, you need to first understand what God is.

I will be doing some extensive posts on this thread on that question.

But let me first give you the summarized answer i gave Tudor on that thread -

In my view, creation is nothing but the intrinsic self-expression of the mind of the creator. I believe that the natural outward radiation of the substance of divinity is what emerges as creation.

God being a compound element, comprises an infinite mind that contains infinite permutations of existence.

This infinite mind being self-existent continuously pulsates in the reality of its live nature and that emitts steady streams of creation which is nothing but the replica of the infinite permutations of existence contained in the universal mind.

Accordingly i do not subscribe to the belief that man was created for the purpose of worshipping God per se.

I think that man is a natural manifestation of the mind of God, and in living (and living fully), God's thoughts reach expression and reality through man (and through everything else in existence).

Deep sight isn't it obvious Tony is trying to seek the perspective of the adherents of the abrahamic faiths?

I'm also interested in hearing them out.

Deep Sight:

Toney - stop fixating on the Abrahamic legends. Every tribe has its legends and we needn't presume Jewish legends to be any truer than Yoruba or Igbo legends.

I am here talking about the Judea-Christian  God because most of the Christians here believe in that god hypothesis and that is the concept of god that I was brought up to believe in since childhood. I was in Nigeria in October after a very long time and the way people that I interacted with believe in these things is way beyond belief. That's why I am asking.  

As to why God would create, you need to first understand what God is.

What is your own god? Oneness of infinity?

I will be doing some extensive posts on this thread on that question.

But let me first give you the summarized answer i gave Tudor on that thread -

In my view, creation is nothing but intrinsic self-expression of the mind of the creator. I believe that the natural outward radiation of the substance of divinity is what emerges as creation.

God being a compound element, comprises an infinite mind that contains all and infinite permutations of existence.

This infinite mind being self-existent continuously pulsates in the reality of its live nature and that emitts steady streams of creation which is nothing but the replica of the infinite permutations of existence contained in the universal mind.

Accordingly i do not subscribe to the belief that man was created for the purpose of worshipping God per se.

I think that man is a natural manifestation of the mind of God, and in living (and living fully), God's thoughts reach expression and reality through man (and through everything else in existence).

I am beginning to believe that you are a pantheist not a deist, If god is the universe in generally as you are trying to assert then why it says is that you are just taking the word "universe" and replacing it with "God" for no reason beyond the desire to pointlessly include a god in there. If you believe the universe is conscious (as you seem to indicate sometimes), that's one thing. But if you don't believe there's some divine, unifying force, what's the point of calling it God?

toneyb:

I just want to start a new topic based on a post I saw on another thread from Tudor. Lets assume that the bible is true. Why did Yahweh create anything at all since the story of the bible consists mostly of god trying to correct his own mistakes, punishing Adam and Eve, the flood, sodom and gomorrha, fighting with men. killing them for disobedience, regretting that he created men, sending Jesus(Himself to die) for the sins of men etc. Christians mostly say that people were created for Yahweh's pleasure but what we see around is very contrary to that claim. according to the theory  humans are said to be created in "His image" hence we can comfortly use our "god-given" morals to judge Yahweh assuming he is our maker as well. Also the bible states Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowlage, the fruit of which is supposedly meant to give us some insight into what God himself considers good and evil, right? I think that would place me in quite a safe standing from which to judge the actions of God, by his own morals.

This really does not make any sense at all. Why did Yahweh make Adam knowing that Adam was going to screw-up then? And then going on blaming us, the supposed Adam's descendants for it. according to the story Yahweh created Adam with the ability to sin, and knowing he created Adam with this ability, he placed a "forbidden garden" in his presence  and allowed his enemy to go inside the garden and tempt eve without her having any knowledge of what is right or what is wrong? Isn't that a bit like giving children gasoline and matches and telling them, "you are forbidden to play with those" and sending your enemy whom they do not know about to tell them other wise? I'm not omniscient, but even I can predict the outcome of that little experiment, so why blame humans if this ridiculous theory is true? He should blame himself, as he could have changed it no?   
Personally this hypothesis just points to some story made up by some desperately unhappy people who need hope for happiness in a fairytale future away from this earth but I just want to hear from the mouth of Christians and I want them to tell me why Yahweh created the universe If we are to go by what we see around and what the bible really says.

Your beginning point shows that you are not really looking for answers.

It is clear that you have already reached your conclusions, which would hardly shift even if verses from the bible showed you that your position is very wrong. I have been there myself, so can empathise with your position. After i lost my 'religion' it took me close to 10 years to 'retrieve my paths from the land of wandering.' So i will not give you any answers. You already have answers that you are 'comfortable' with. Most men, myself inclusive, may actually be in error about the truth of the living God. But i have learnt that the answers that i found in my days of wandering are much further from the truth than the ones i have come to know since i regained the 'innocence' to believe again.

The answers that bring peace do not come in places like this. They come in the quiet place of meditation.

beneli:

Your beginning point shows that you are not really looking for answers.

It is clear that you have already reached your conclusions, which would hardly shift even if verses from the bible showed you that your position is very wrong. I have been there myself, so can empathise with your position. After i lost my 'religion' it took me close to 10 years to 'retrieve my paths from the land of wandering.' So i will not give you any answers. You already have answers that you are 'comfortable' with. Most men, myself inclusive, may actually be in error about the truth of the living God. But i have learnt that the answers that i found in my days of wandering are much further from the truth than the ones i have come to know since i regained the 'innocence' to believe again.

This is true just by reading the OP, I have stated that I want to know why I am wrong, Do you believe in the bible? I made my assertions based on what is written in the bible, so I will like you to correct me if I am wrong. Belief has nothing to do with innocence.

The answers that bring peace do not come in places like this. They come in the quiet place of meditation.

What peace are you referring to? And what has reality got to do with your personal meditations? To meditate you will first of all have to believe that your deeply held beliefs are true and then try to rationalize your beliefs in the process of "meditating". When you meditate what really happens?

toneyb:

This is true just by reading the OP, I have stated that I want to know why I am wrong,

The story of the bible doesn't 'consist mostly of god trying to correct his own mistakes'.

toneyb:

Do you believe in the bible? I made my assertions based on what is written in the bible, so I will like you to correct me if I am wrong. ,

You made your assertions based on your own interpretation of what is written in the bible

toneyb:

Belief has nothing to do with innocence. ,

Correct

toneyb:

What peace are you referring to?And what has reality got to do with your personal meditations? To meditate you will first of all have to believe that your deeply held beliefs are true and then try to rationalize your beliefs in the process of "meditating". When you meditate what really happens?

I am referring to a 'peace' that comes from the understanding that there is one greater than me who is in ultimate control.

'RealitY' is what we make of it, my good friend. In my reality there is a role for personal meditation. And i do believe that my deeply held beliefs are true. Honest to God, i do.

When i meditate i experience even more illumination that gladens my heart. And in those moments i know that the one who shepherds my soul is indeed Lord!  In those moments, understanding dawns on me that though i am not even near to being 'righteous', i shall not 'want' anymore because the needs of my soul are continuously nourished. No more for me the existential angst that plagued my soul in the days of my rebellion and of my wandering in the parched deserts of searching. That's my reality. What's yours?

beneli:

The story of the bible doesn't 'consist mostly of god trying to correct his own mistakes'.

It does, If we are to go by what the bible says and assume that it is true then we have god creating Adam and Eve and then after he allowed satan to come and decieve them with out them knowing the difference between right and wrong, He then decided to drive them out of his garden. But, if God is omniscient, he knew that they would eat the fruit. He knew that, even before he created them. And, in possession of that knowledge, he created them, in such a way that, not only could they eat it, but they definitely would eat it. He could have created them otherwise. He chose not to. He needn't have put the fruit there. He chose to. Who's the responsible party here? They had offspring who became rebellious and God according regreted why he created men so he decided to kill all humans on earth and begin again with Noah and his family, That again failed so God according to the bible had to come ones in a while to fight or kill people to show them that he is God, That again did not work so God had to come down in human form to correct that again, Now its still not working because Sin and the devil whom God supossedly created and are making God angry.

You made your assertions based on your own interpretation of what is written in the bible

I made my deductions based on what is actually written in the bible.

Correct

I am referring to a 'peace' that comes from the understanding that there is one greater than me who is in ultimate control.

'RealitY' is what we make of it, my good friend. In my reality there is a role for personal meditation. And i do believe that my deeply held beliefs are true. Honest to God, i do.

When i meditate i experience even more illumination that gladens my heart. And in those moments i know that the one who shepherds my soul is indeed Lord!  In those moments, understanding dawns on me that though i am not even near to being 'righteous', i shall not 'want' anymore because the needs of my soul are continuously nourished. No more for me the existential angst that plagued my soul in the days of my rebellion and of my wandering in the parched deserts of searching. That's my reality. What's yours?

All these are your subjective reality. Soul, spirit etc are all subjective assumptions that have no evidence at all in any reality.

toneyb:

It does, If we are to go by what the bible says and assume that it is true then we have god creating Adam and Eve and then after he allowed satan to come and decieve them with out them knowing the difference between right and wrong, He then decided to drive them out of his garden. But, if God is omniscient, he knew that they would eat the fruit. He knew that, even before he created them. And, in possession of that knowledge, he created them, in such a way that, not only could they eat it, but they definitely would eat it. He could have created them otherwise. He chose not to. He needn't have put the fruit there. He chose to. Who's the responsible party here? They had offspring who became rebellious and God according regreted why he created men so he decided to kill all humans on earth and begin again with Noah and his family, That again failed so God according to the bible had to come ones in a while to fight or kill people to show them that he is God, That again did not work so God had to come down in human form to correct that again, Now its still not working because Sin and the devil whom God supossedly created and are making God angry.

I made my deductions based on what is actually written in the bible.

Correct

All these are your subjective reality. Soul, spirit etc are all subjective assumptions that have no evidence at all in any reality.

As you wish, my brother!

PS: What is 'subjective reality' anyway?

beneli:

As you wish, my brother!

PS: What is 'subjective reality' anyway?

Ok, Subjective reality means relating to properties or specific conditions of the mind as distinguished from general or universal experience.

toneyb:

Ok, Subjective reality means relating to properties or specific conditions of the mind as distinguished from general or universal experience.

The subjective realities' of more people on earth make room for such things as 'soul, spirit etc'. So, my friend, you are wrong when you say that they 'have no evidence at all in any reality'. You are very wrong!

beneli:

The subjective realities' of more people on earth make room for such things as 'soul, spirit etc'. So, my friend, you are wrong when you say that they 'have no evidence at all in any reality'. You are very wrong!

Let me come in here. . . . So what is a soul? In what part of the human body does it reside? Belief is very different from reality hope you know? Over a billion people believe that mohammed once divided the moon into two and made it bow down to him, About a billion people believe in Hinduism and the Hindu gods as the creator of the universe, Over a billion people believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead. . . .That is not reality that people believe in all these things does not make them true. . .Reality has nothing to do with people personal and subjective beliefs. . . .

mazaje:

Let me come in here. . . . So what is a soul? In what part of the human body does it reside? Belief is very different from reality hope you know? Over a billion people believe that mohammed once divided the moon into two and made it bow down to him, About a billion people believe in Hinduism and the Hindu gods as the creator of the universe, Over a billion people believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead. . . .That is not reality that people believe in all these things does not make them true. . .Reality has nothing to do with people personal and subjective beliefs. . . .

The issue is that nobody is sure what 'reality' is. When Tonyb talked about 'subjective reality', I just wanted to indulge him a bit. Most of what we consider 'reality' is afterall 'subjective'.
What is a 'soul'? you ask? Nobody knows. Just like nobody knows what constitutes the 'mind'. The field of Psychiatry, where by the way you find specialists in things relating to the mind, understands that 'science' itself is unable to unravel fully the mysteries of the mind. That's why there is an increasing interest in 'Spirituality' among Psychiatrists. I should know, because i am actually a member of the Royal College of Psychiatrists. Not that it's of any significance.

I don't know how much exposure to the unfolding field of particle physics you have, but if you are following some of the developments in that field, you will agree with me that our previously held notions of what constitutes 'reality' is changing. You may also have gathered that 'belief' is actually a lot more powerful than previously thought. It has the power to make things happen. So, my friend, let's agree that we are all trying to understand the mysteries of life and death. Some of us believe that there is more to life than 'corporeal'  and time-bound' existence. Those, like you, who don't accept this are at liberty to do so. But discoveries in science are pointing to the fact that we may be more right than you.

For me, the extratemporal and extracorporal realm, is the spirit realm. The one that holds everything together i call God. 'Scientists' in the know are at liberty to call Him the God particle. It doesn't matter. What matters is that there is 'something' out there.

Unfortunately it doesn't stop at just knowing about that 'something' people now feel the need to characterize that 'something' however they see fit with several crap like having sons and daughters, answering prayers., intelligent, alive e.t.c and expect us to accept it as truth and rule our lives by it. . .that is unacceptable.

Tudór:

Unfortunately it doesn't stop at just knowing about that 'something' people now feel the need to characterize that 'something' however they see fit with several crap like having sons and daughters, answering prayers., intelligent, alive e.t.c and expect us to accept it as truth and rule our lives by it. . .that is unacceptable.

You are right in a way but not completely. Having said that it's important that the truth of 'God' is separated from the traditions and prejudiced interpretaions of man.

'He whom I bow to only knows to whom I bow
When I attempt the ineffable Name, murmuring Thou,
And dream of Pheidian fancies and embrace in heart
Symbols (I know) which cannot be the thing Thou art.

Thus always, taken at their word, all prayers blaspheme
Worshiping with frail images a folk-lore dream,
And all men in their praying, self-deceived, address
The coinage of their own unquiet thoughts, unless

Thou in magnetic mercy to Thyself divert
Our arrows, aimed unskillfully, beyond desert;
And all men are idolaters, crying unheard
To a deaf idol, if Thou take them at their word.

Take not, O Lord, our literal sense. Lord, in thy great
Unbroken speech our limping metaphor translate'

Footnote to all Prayers by C.S.Lewis

Tudór:

Unfortunately it doesn't stop at just knowing about that 'something' people now feel the need to characterize that 'something' however they see fit with several crap like having sons and daughters, answering prayers., intelligent, alive e.t.c and expect us to accept it as truth and rule our lives by it. . .that is unacceptable.

O please scoff off: are you not the same clown who admitted in the other thread just yesterday that there are "elements of intelligence" in the first cause and you come here declaring that beliveing in an intelligent God is "unnaceptable."

What the hell do we know about existence to qualify us to go about pompously declaring that although we ourselves are intelligent, whatever brought us here could not possibly be intelligent.

You must be Omniscient to know that, and since you have no shred of evidence for that belief you are just as dogmatically deluded as any one else.

Joker.

beneli:

The issue is that nobody is sure what 'reality' is. When Tonyb talked about 'subjective reality', I just wanted to indulge him a bit. Most of what we consider 'reality' is afterall 'subjective'.

That may or may not be true. . . .The point I was trying to make is that subjective claims don't really amount to any evidence. . . .

What is a 'soul'? you ask? Nobody knows. Just like nobody knows what constitutes the 'mind'. The field of Psychiatry, where by the way you find specialists in things relating to the mind, understands that 'science' itself is unable to unravel fully the mysteries of the mind. That's why there is an increasing interest in 'Spirituality' among Psychiatrists. I should know, because i am actually a member of the Royal College of Psychiatrists. Not that it's of any significance.

What is the mind? These are just expressions people attribute to the brain. . .All thoughts weather known or unknown are generated from the brain and that has been explained in detail with empirical evidence to show for it. . OBEs (out-of-body experiences) have been pretty much debunked.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6960612.stm

This article explains how they've recreated the experiences. So basically, if you're having a near-death experience, you're not "seeing the other side". Your brain is just being fried.

I don't know how much exposure to the unfolding field of particle physics you have, but if you are following some of the developments in that field, you will agree with me that our previously held notions of what constitutes 'reality' is changing. You may also have gathered that 'belief' is actually a lot more powerful than previously thought.

Of course I know very well how belief affects reality and how beliefs themselves are constantly changing and evolving. . .

It has the power to make things happen. So, my friend, let's agree that we are all trying to understand the mysteries of life and death. Some of us believe that there is more to life than 'corporeal'  and time-bound' existence. Those, like you, who don't accept this are at liberty to do so. [b]But discoveries in science are pointing to the fact that we may be more right than you[/b].

What are the discoveries in science that support your hypothesis? So Far there is NON what so ever. . .Most situations like this can be attributed to neurological or psychological events. Or even chemical. It's not evidence for a soul at all. It's just that our bodies (and brains) aren't nearly as fine-tuned as a lot of people seem to believe.

For me, the extratemporal and extracorporal realm, is the spirit realm. The one that holds everything together i call God. 'Scientists' in the know are at liberty to call Him the God particle. It doesn't matter. What matters is that there is 'something' out there.

And your evidence for this extratemporal and extracororal realm is?. . . . .Because you believe that there is something out there does not mean that there is something out there. . .That's why I said that reality has nothing to do with people's beliefs. . . .And your evidence to show that there is something that holds everything together is?. . . .

Mazaje what is a thought.

I ask my question carefully: i do not ask where thoughts come from, which you will assert to be the brain. I ask what the thought itself is.

Is it a physical thing?

I repeat for emphasis: i do not ask where thoughts come from: i ask what thoughts are.

Deep Sight:

O please scoff off: are you not the same clown who admitted in the other thread just yesterday that there are "elements of intelligence" in the first cause and you come here declaring that beliveing in an intelligent God is "unnaceptable."

What the hell do we know about existence to qualify us to go about pompously declaring that although we ourselves are intelligent, whatever brought us here could not possibly be intelligent.

You must be Omniscient to know that, and since you have no shred of evidence for that belief you are just as dogmatically deluded as any one else.

Joker.

Go and learn how to read freak.

Elements of intelligence, Elements for intelligence and Intelligence are THREE different things. Mumu

Deep Sight:

Mazaje what is a thought.

I ask my question carefully: i do not ask where thoughts come from, which you will assert to be the brain. I ask reasoning, imagining[b]what the thought itself is.[/b]reasoning, imagining

Is it a physical thing?

I repeat for emphasis: i do not ask where thoughts come from: i ask what thoughts are.

Thoughts are the product of mental activity they are that(idea or notion) which one thinks. Thoughts could be imaginations, reasoning, consideration or reflection, meditation, contemplation, or recollection, intention, design, or purpose, anticipations or expectations etc. . . .And no, thoughts are not physical things. . .

The mind is not just 'expressions people attribute to the brain'.  

In fact the discussions about what consitutes the 'mind' is ongoing in a lot of informed circles such as this one for instance http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/SIG%20Website%20April%203rd%2009%20Programme.pdf. The truth is that we don't know!

I agree with you that OBE is not about 'seeing the other side'. But it's not about your brain being 'fried'. What is going on there is still being investigated. We understand that the experiences are subject to different interpretations but some of the findings do not quite fit into the box of brain hypoxia and gradual brain death (leading to increased 'fronto-temporal stimulation) and the subsequent experiences. Some of these findings are exciting the curiosity of those that are increasingly interested in the issues of Spirituality and Mental Health. Because they are not solely explained by neurophysiology.

mazaje:

no, thoughts are not physical things. . .

Great. So non-physical things exist.

You will therefore agree with me that a diatribe against theism on account of the fact that it centres around a non-physical factor is moot.

Deep Sight:

Great. So non-physical things exist.

You will therefore agree with me that a diatribe against theism on account of the fact that it centres around a non-physical factor is moot.

The problem is that theist say that their various deities are physical beings that can be seen sometimes. . .

mazaje:

The problem is that theist say that their various deities are physical beings that can be seen sometimes. . .

The last time i checked, most deists, including Christians, see their gods as 'spiritual beings'.

beneli:

The last time i checked, most deists, including Christians, see their gods as 'spiritual beings'.

They say such things because they have no other option. . .Read the bible and you will see that the god talked about in there is both a physical and a spiritual being. . . .He can be seen or his voice can be heard addressing people through public address etc. . . Now that same god has been relagated to the realm of the unknown and the undefined. . .how convenient. . .

@mazaje,
Have you had a look at the link i gave you on the discussions about the mind? I don't want you to keep silent about it. Note the discussions there represent the latest understanding concerning the 'mind'. And yes, it's all science Not religion!

beneli:

The mind is not just 'expressions people attribute to the brain'.  

In fact the discussions about what consitutes the 'mind' is ongoing in a lot of informed circles such as this one for instance http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/SIG%20Website%20April%203rd%2009%20Programme.pdf. The truth is that we don't know!

I agree with you that OBE is not about 'seeing the other side'. But it's not about your brain being 'fried'. What is going on there is still being investigated. We understand that the experiences are subject to different interpretations but some of the findings do not quite fit into the box of brain hypoxia and gradual brain death (leading to increased 'fronto-temporal stimulation) and the subsequent experiences. Some of these findings are exciting the curiosity of those that are increasingly interested in the issues of Spirituality and Mental Health. Because they are not solely explained by neurophysiology.

But what of natural processes?
They surround us; every moment of our lives is encased by them. We are entirely subject to them. They account for all the brute facts we must negotiate in our lives, from the daily dawning of the sun to its setting.

Commonsense dictates (to me) that they account for the universe and all that we observe, and therefore it is sensible to conclude that Life has progressed to its present state of incomprehensible complexity via natural processes that have layered complexity upon complexity in billions upon billions upon billions of incremental steps. Even the actions of what you call the mind are all part of the natural process no?

Because we don't understand them is no reason to attribute them to an unseen, non-physical god is it? A god which the mind alone thinks it detects.

mazaje:

But what of natural processes?
They surround us; every moment of our lives is encased by them. We are entirely subject to them. They account for all the brute facts we must negotiate in our lives, from the daily dawning of the sun to its setting.

Commonsense dictates (to me) that they account for the universe and all that we observe, and therefore it is sensible to conclude that Life has progressed to its present state of incomprehensible complexity via natural processes that have layered complexity upon complexity in billions upon billions upon billions of incremental steps. Even the actions of what you call the mind are all part of the natural process no?

Because we don't understand them is no reason to attribute them to an unseen, non-physical god is it? A god which the mind alone thinks it detects.

The problem is that we no longer know what 'natural' processes are.

Who would have ever thought that 'Scientists' would be discussing the 'extended mind' and 'consciousness' that continues beyond death?! Our understanding of 'Life' is changing. Discoveries are telling us that man may not be just 'biology' and that  'evolution' may not be it afterall! The quantum collapse theory and the uncertainty principle in quantum mechanics are other cogs in the wheel of so called 'natural processes'.

Our not understanding these things is not a license to make external attributions to an unseen god. The 'attribution' is a choice thing that has little to do with a better intelligence, which a lot of 'atheists' claim. The problem i have, reading some of the posts by 'atheist, is that a lot of them assume that they have more information than those of us who believe in God. The truth is that you don't.

beneli:

The problem is that we no longer know what 'natural' processes are.

According to who? This statement is false. . .We now know that all what we used to ascribe to supernatural like lightining, rainbow, thunder, storms, diseases are all natural processes caused by mindless natural agents. . .So what do you mean that we do not know what is natural any more. . . We now know what nature is and how it works more than any period of human civilization through out human existence

Who would have ever thought that 'Scientists' would be discussing the 'extended mind' and 'consciousness' that continues beyond death?! Our understanding of 'Life' is changing. Discoveries are telling us that man may not be just 'biology' and that  'evolution' may not be it afterall! The quantum collapse theory and the uncertainty principle in quantum mechanics are other cogs in the wheel of so called 'natural processes'.

Scientist are only trying to see if those claims are true. . . .And so far they have found out that there is NO evidence at all to show that any part of human existence survives bodily death. . . .Which discoveries are telling us that we may no be just boilogy? Care to show us those discoveries so far all the conventional scientific papers peer reviewed documents that are mainstream have shown that we are just biology and that man evolved over time. . .Your scientific peer reviewed papers that say other wise are?

Our not understanding these things is not a license to make external attributions to an unseen god. The 'attribution' is a choice thing that has little to do with a better intelligence, which a lot of 'atheists' claim. The problem i have, reading some of the posts by 'atheist, is that a lot of them assume that they have more information than those of us who believe in God. The truth is that you don't.

The problem is that all theist attribute everything to their various gods, When they discover that their scientific understanding goes against their religious inclinations they try to castigate science in other to uphold their beliefs. . . .We do not claim to have more information than you guys we just point out to where the available information points to. . .So far ALL the empirical and scientific discoveries have shown that all the religious books and their theories are false. . .Geology disproves the Noah's flood. . . Astronomy shows that the moon was Never divided by mohammed. . .Astronomy disproves so many biblical assertions. . .Science has continued to show that this primitive religious Ideas and stories are out dated and were merely thoughts of men nothing more. . .Belief is not a choice, it is a result. And for people like me, it has to be a result of observation, study, and evidence, Belief can be the result of mental deception, of simply wanting to believe something is true because of indoctrination through emotional attachments. . . That is why I believe in empirically verifiable assertions not wishful thoughts, hypothesis,traditions and mere fantasies that have been shown to be FALSE over and over again. . . . And that is what you have with religion. . .

@mazaje
How body na, and how is our pdp voting going, you must win oh!

mazaje:



According to who? This statement is false. . .We now know that all what we used to ascribe to supernatural like lightining, rainbow, thunder, storms, diseases are all natural processes caused by mindless natural agents. . .So what do you mean that we do not know what is natural any more. . . We now know what nature is and how it works more than any period of human civilization through out human existence

Scientist are only trying to see if those claims are true. . . .And so far they have found out that there is NO evidence at all to show that any part of human existence survives bodily death. . . .Which discoveries are telling us that we may no be just boilogy? Care to show us those discoveries so far all the conventional scientific papers peer reviewed documents that are mainstream have shown that we are just biology and that man evolved over time. . .Your scientific peer reviewed papers that say other wise are?

The problem is that all theist attribute everything to their various gods, When they discover that their scientific understanding goes against their religious inclinations they try to castigate science in other to uphold their beliefs. . . .We do not claim to have more information than you guys we just point out to where the available information points to. . .So far ALL the empirical and scientific discoveries have shown that all the religious books and their theories are false. . .Geology disproves the Noah's flood. . . Astronomy shows that the moon was Never divided by mohammed. . .Astronomy disproves so many biblical assertions. . .Science has continued to show that this primitive religious Ideas and stories are out dated and were merely thoughts of men nothing more. . .Belief is not a choice, it is a result. And for people like me, it has to be a result of observation, study, and evidence, Belief can be the result of mental deception, of simply wanting to believe something is true because of indoctrination through emotional attachments. . . That is why I believe in empirically verifiable assertions not wishful thoughts, hypothesis,traditions and mere fantasies that have been shown to be FALSE over and over again. . . . And that is what you have with religion. . .

This discussion can continue ad nauseatum!

It's been going on for thousands of years already and has not been resolved. Scientific 'debates', numerous critically appraised academic papers etc, have been thrashing these issues for ages so i doubt you and I will shed any new light that would make people to start revising what they already believe (or don't believe) in!

The bottom line is that i believe that God created and you believe that creation is a random occurence. Fine. Now back to  the topic of this particular thread: Why did God create?

beneli:


The bottom line is that i believe that God created and you believe that creation is a random occurence. Fine. Now back to the topic of this particular thread: Why did God create?

"Creation" being a random occurence already presupposes things to be existing in order for them to then take preceise form as a consequence of randomness.