nferyn, remind me of which church you said you attended briefly before this delusion befell you, because you are really cracking me up...howbeit, your questions need addressing...only we will approach it not by answering your questions but id like you to be God for one day and reign over the earth and maybe the answer will be clearer to you...but to my question, which church did you ever attend?

Both my parents were raised as Roman Catholics, but they left the church and both are weak atheists. I have never been raised in a religious home and never felt the need for any origin story that is not firmly rooted in evidence. I'm absolutely puzzled by the fact that intelligent human beings can believe in a supreme being as described in any of the holy books by the 3 main monotheistic religions. You can logicly arrive at the possible existence of a first mover (deistic position), but a theistic deity is a logical and scientifical impossibility.

How come you assume that I'm delusional. What evidence do you have that you are not the one deluding yourself? Have you ever honestly pondered on that possibility?

I take the only possible logical position by assuming that before believing in a God, I need firm, conclusive evidence of his existence.

Gods' definition of "fool"

Ps 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

God even said it twice so you would hear:

Ps 53:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good

Ps 92:5-6
O LORD, how great are thy works! and thy thoughts are very deep.

A brutish man knoweth not; neither doth a fool understand this.

Need I say more...

RhodaRose

That was David talking not GOD, Rhoda

You're at insulting people again and thinking you're doing God's work?

RhodaRose:

Gods' definition of "fool"

Ps 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

1. How do you decide that God said that?
2. How are they corrupt? Define corrupt and point to the instances at which they are corrupt
3. What abominable works? Describe them. Why are these works abominable?
4. How do you know that they did no good? What do you define as good and how do you conclude that none doeth good?

RhodaRose:

God even said it twice so you would hear:

Ps 53:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good

Ps 92:5-6
O LORD, how great are thy works! and thy thoughts are very deep.

A brutish man knoweth not; neither doth a fool understand this.

Need I say more...

RhodaRose

5. brutish: how so? Describe the instances of being brutish?

Your debating style is not conductive of intelligent discourse. It's a lot of assertions, backed up by no real evidence, wrapped in insults and refusing any questioning of it's basic premises. It is the debating style of an ignorant biggot.

@ RhodaRose

You know what I find remarkable. I can have an honest, open, courteous and friendly debate with layi, who is also a strong believer, while you have to use the lowest of rhetorical tricks to approach my debating points. I would very much like to get to know [i]layi [/i]personally when I will be visiting Nigeria, as we - despite our differences - can probably be friends. I have no illusions of the venom you would throw at me if we were to meet

Think about is, who personifies the spirit of Jesus more, [i]layi [/i]or you?

Layi,

That was David talking not GOD

That was God talking, by the Holy Spirit, through David....

**************************
nferyn,

Your debating style is not conductive of intelligent discourse. It's a lot of assertions, backed up by no real evidence, wrapped in insults and refusing any questioning of it's basic premises. It is the debating style of an ignorant biggot.

American Heritage Dictionary:

Bigots may have more in common with God than one might think. Legend has it that Rollo, the first duke of Normandy, refused to kiss the foot of the French king Charles III, uttering the phrase "bi got", his borrowing of the assumed Old English equivalent of our expression "by God"

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Joh 17:14
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

I have no illusions of the venom you would throw at me if we were to meet

Joh 15:18
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
Joh 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Joh 15:24
If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
Joh 15:25
But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Mr 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Fight the "sword" with the Sword, it is the only winning combination...

It does not "tickle the ears" because it is the Truth for all men...

RhodaRose

@ RhodaRose

Apparently you have no problem being a bigot or am I misreading you?

Please indicate to me where I have shown any hate? Why do you have to respond to my [i]perceived hate [/i]with real hate yourself?
Time after time again true believers need to call anyone who does not agree with their position as hating God or Jesus. I do not hate God, just as I do not hate the tooth fairy. Both are imaginary creatures from my point of view and even mentioning the word hate is ridiculous, hate is nowhere to be found in my mind.

"Surely the Almighty changes not the condition of a people unless they change that which is in themselves." Quran Chapter 13:11

Your quest to believe in God can only be met by first admitting that you have no knowledge of the hereafter. From there, i would advise you to pick up religious books (Islam, Christianity) and see what they say about life after death.

"We have shown man the path of truth and the path of falsehood; he may choose either the path of guidance and offer the thanks, or choose the path of ingratitude." Quran chapter 76:3

Kismat, I must say that I always appreciated the input of the few muslims on this board. At least you bring the debate on an intellectual level and do not have to use insults to bring your point of view to the table. I am currently reading an introductory book on the history and doctrines of Islam to increase my knowledge of your religion.

May peace be upon you

Nfery,

God loves u so much that is why he has put this kind of topic in ur mind to say it out and to hear (His) peoples opinions.
My people up there have told u so many things,i will advice u to Just take ur time and think about it and allow God to convince u Himself that He really do exist.If u have a Bible close to u,open it and read,u will understand.
Ok!!! the evolution u so much believe (with proves)what makes u believe it is really true!Were u there with those scientists that claim they discovered it.U only believe probably because u read it in a book or maybe(should i say) studied about it.
Do not be mad at RhodaRose, he is just trying to find a way to prove to u that "God exists"Which is really a true fact.

It is not the will of God that any man will perish but that all will come to the knowledge of Him.Just think about it!

God do exist!!!!!!!

i find it hard to difficult to understand why people say there is no God. of course, there is an answer-the devil.

do u believe u just happened to be?

evolution itself is a theory and therefore cannot be accepted wholeheartedly. Science justifies the existence of God.

@ wendytilda

Hey, countrywoman

I am not saying there is no possibility of a God, only it is not the God described in the Bible. If there is a God, he/she would never be so wicked and limited. The Bible is written to give the feeble minds of humans an understanding of the divine and is written, rewritten, translated, ... in human language, it cannot possibly be the word of God. It would be arrogance to the highest degree to even assume that our minds can understand the divine.

The divine is in the mere existence, in the relationships we have with each other and with this planet.

Vongauche:

i find it hard to difficult to understand why people say there is no God. of course, there is an answer-the devil.

Your frame of reference is your religion. Step outside these boundaries, leave your passion and feelings for the subject behind. Only use logic to approach the evidence and you will understand.
Bringing in the devil is using a scapegoat for the failings of your own religion. The concept is just as meaningless as God, you only need it to reinforce your worldview. Otherwise God could not possibly be good.

Vongauche:

do u believe u just happened to be?

What are you trying to say here?

Vongauche:

evolution itself is a theory and therefore cannot be accepted wholeheartedly. Science justifies the existence of God.

Evolution is both a fact and a theory. It is a fact because populations of species changed over time. There is plenty of evidence for that.
A scientific theory is something very different from a theory as we use it in every day language. It is not a hunch in the least.

Stephen Jay Gould put it much more eloquently than I ever could:

n the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science--that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."

Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.

Vongauche:

Science justifies the existence of God.

How so?

That is your problem, God is still God...whether u believe in Him or not.

thx for your contribution, Donnie. You really helped the debate forward. Assertion is no evidence

It is the fool who says there is no God. God's definition of the fool is 'one who despises Godly councel'.

I remember the testimony of Jessy Duplanatis. He said he was on board a plane some time  ago and happened to be sitting next to an etheist. He tried sharing the gospel with him and he just wouldnt accept  saying,"i dont believe in God"

Anyway, not too long after, the wings of the aircraft caught fire and there was consternation in the plane. Suddenly the etheist guy began to shout "oh God!". Jessy turned to Him and said, "shhh, dont call him, he dosnt exist; just relax and enjoy your death."

donnie:

It is the fool who says there is no God. God's definition of the fool is 'one who despises Godly councel'.

Putting a claim on the definition of the word [i]fool [/i]in the name of the Lord, are you? I do not despise Godly council. I do not and cannot despise what I do not believe to exist.

donnie:

I remember the testimony of Jessy Duplanatis. He said he was on board a plane some time ago and happened to be sitting next to an etheist. He tried sharing the gospel with him and he just wouldnt accept saying,"i don't believe in God"

Anyway, not too long after, the wings of the aircraft caught fire and there was consternation in the plane. Suddenly the etheist guy began to shout "oh God!". Jessy turned to Him and said, "shhh, don't call him, he dosnt exist; just relax and enjoy your death."

What a show of compassion. This is really metaphorically turning the other cheek, isn't it.
Anyway, I regularly use Jesus and God as an exclamation for surprise when I speak English, that does not make me a believer.
By the way, it's atheist, not etheist.

I actually gave you the Word- definition of 'fool'. If you want further explation, clarification, or references, simply say so.

You had better look for another exclamation to use before you get into trouble for calling God's name in vain. He is no respecter of persons.

donnie:

I actually gave you the Word- definition of 'fool'. If you want further explation, clarification, or references, simply say so.

You indeed gave your particular definition. This definition is not universally accepted, though.

donnie:

You had better look for another exclamation to use before you get into trouble for calling God's name in vain. He is no respecter of persons.

I shall see then. But as I have no bad or evil intent in what I'm doing, I need not fear.

You do not have to have 'bad or evil' intent to incure the wrath of God.

These are spiritual laws that have been set. That name of Jesus is powerful. In all of heaven, earth and beneath the earth it is the greatest. It must be called with reveerence.

In your ignorance, God may overlook, but now, you have heard my warning.

Acts 17:30
God overlooked people's former ignorance about these things, but now he commands everyone everywhere to turn away from idols and turn to him. [ Greek everywhere to repent.]

So yours is a religion of fear?

I love topics like this.

Nferyn, I don't blame Vongauche for mentioning the devil. It's actually true. The devil has succeeded in making many believe that there's no God so that everyone may perish with him in hell. I have read books about the devil and his exploits and I actually have no doubts that he's succeeded in deceiving the whole world. The Bible refers to him as the god of this age (or world).

Seven years ago, my dad and sister were involved in a ghastly motor accident. Of all 19 passengers, only both of them survived. My sister sustained no single injury while my dad was rushed to the hospital. That evening, he was moved on a wheel chair and was doctorally confirmed to have had broken spinal cords. My mum was in tears. Few hours later, my dad stood up on his own and asked for where the toilet was. Everyone was amazed, including the doctors and nurses.

Now, u expect me to believe that all that happened by chance?? Definitely, there was a divine intervention during the hours he was lying down, while his spinal cord was "broken".

However, as someone said earlier, you only believe what you choose to believe, no matter the number of evidences you have before you.

God is real. He exists.

Goodguy, my burden of evidence is simple and clear. Give me evidence that can withstand scientifical scrutiny and I will believe. If your story is true, then this is a miraculous healing. I'm not aware of anyone that healed from a broken spinal cord. How did those doctors confirm his spinal cord was broken. Have there been X-rays of his spinal cord to prove this?

Anyway, I am not telling anyone they should not believe. It obviously gives you people a lot of comfort and as long as you do not want to impose your belief on others, all is well. I am happy for you that you can believe, because that belief has got a lot of explanatory power for things that have no natural explanation. I can only say that I don't know in face of these things.

nferyn,

Apparently you have no problem being a bigot or am I misreading you?

Bigot is associated with "by God" and "intolerance" which is a characteristic of God so I would be in good company...

Please indicate to me where I have shown any hate? Why do you have to respond to my perceived hate with real hate yourself?

I mostly responded with Scripture and I am sorry if it sounded hateful to you, it was not my intention. Please accept my sincere apology.
You have shown no hate toward me but toward my Creator and Father. I try always to honor my Father and defend His good Name, which I can't apologize for...

I do not hate God, just as I do not hate the tooth fairy. Both are imaginary creatures from my point of view and even mentioning the word hate is ridiculous, hate is nowhere to be found in my mind.

My God is not imaginary in my mind but very real.
Yes, you are correct that you can not hate something you think is imaginary.

You wrote to wendytilda:

The Bible is written to give the feeble minds of humans an understanding of the divine ...

Yes! Exactly!!

...and is written, rewritten, translated, ... in human language, it cannot possibly be the word of God.

Why couldn't it be the Word of God just because it is rewritten and translated in "human" language?

It would be arrogance to the highest degree to even assume that our minds can understand the divine.

No, our minds of flesh can not understand the divine, that is why the Holy Spirit of Truth was sent, as out Teacher of the Divine Truth of our Creator.

The divine is in the mere existence, in the relationships we have with each other and with this planet.

You have low expectations if you think this is "all there is" and there "ain't no more"...

This is just the "proving ground", this "planet", and the mere existence here is but a grain of salt in all the oceans of this earth compared to eternity.
The most important relationship we can have while on this earth is with our Father, the one and Only Creator of All.

You as GoodGuy:

...my burden of evidence is simple and clear. Give me evidence that can withstand scientific scrutiny and I will believe.

Jesus said:

Joh 20:29
... because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

I have seen many miracles and many I have not seen but I am Blessed knowing they happen without my seeing them... HalleluYAH

Anyway, I am not telling anyone they should not believe. It obviously gives you people a lot of comfort and as long as you do not want to impose your belief on others, all is well.

How can we discuss without imposing our belief on others?
and what is wrong with imposing our comfort on others?
This is love to comfort others...

I am happy for you that you can believe, because that belief has got a lot of explanatory power for things that have no natural explanation.

Yes, believing does have a lot of explanatory power to explain things that have no natural explaination...so why do you expect us to explain and prove to you things that have no natural explanation? You won't believe until we prove it to you but there is no way to prove it to you because it defies natural explanations, therefore "Only Believe"

RhodaRose

RhodaRose:

nferyn,

Bigot is associated with "by God" and "intolerance" which is a characteristic of God so I would be in good company...

I would not want to associate with anything intolerant. I tolerate all behaviour, as long as it is not harmful to anyone else.

RhodaRose:

I mostly responded with Scripture and I am sorry if it sounded hateful to you, it was not my intention. Please accept my sincere apology.
You have shown no hate toward me but toward my Creator and Father. I try always to honor my Father and defend His good Name, which I can't apologize for...

I accept your graceful apology. And I still do not understand how I have shown any hate toward God. You contradict yourself when you say:

RhodaRose:

My God is not imaginary in my mind but very real.
Yes, you are correct that you can not hate something you think is imaginary.

As for the fact that I believe, if there were a supreme being, it would be impossible to picture or understand for us with our limited cognitive capabilities (we already have big problems thinking in more than 4 dimension).

RhodaRose:

Why couldn't it be the Word of God just because it is rewritten and translated in "human" language?

Humans could not possibly understand the divine if there would be a supreme being. Even if you say:

RhodaRose:

No, our minds of flesh can not understand the divine, that is why the Holy Spirit of Truth was sent, as out Teacher of the Divine Truth of our Creator.

You are unfortunately engaging in self serving projection. How can we, with our limited abilities even think that the spirit (as a manifestation of the divine) is real. there is no way for us to know, except by relying on our own limited abilities

RhodaRose:

You have low expectations if you think this is "all there is" and there "ain't no more"...

No, there is just nothing that concretely points me to anything else. The divine is in the mere existence, which is already wonderfully improbable, we absolutely do not need to resort to anything else. When I meditate in a natural surrounding (e.g. on a mountain) , I can reach a state of absolute peace and tranquility that is immensely fulfilling. I become one with my surroundings and feel the divine (that's why I do have a pantheistic religious feeling, although it does not include an entity external from the natural world, it is [/b]the natural world)

RhodaRose:

This is just the "proving ground", this "planet", and the mere existence here is but a grain of salt in all the oceans of this earth compared to eternity.
The most important relationship we can have while on this earth is with our Father, the one and Only Creator of All.

Isn't that realisation wonderful enough in itself? Where's the need for an external force?

RhodaRose:

Jesus said:

Joh 20:29
... because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: [b]blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

I have seen many miracles and many I have not seen but I am Blessed knowing they happen without my seeing them... HalleluYAH

That's exactly my problem. Following God as [i]revealed [/i]in the Bible would mean that I have to suspend my critical thinking, logic and cognitive abilities. I cannot in good conscience do that. If God gave me free will and he is all powerful, all seeing and perfectly good, he would damn me, even though I live a good and conscientious life, this is contrary to his properties.
In short: either God is all of the above and will accept me or he is not all of the above.

RhodaRose:

How can we discuss without imposing our belief on others?
and what is wrong with imposing our comfort on others?
This is love to comfort others...

You can, very easily. [i]layi [/i]for example does not impose anything on others. He defends his beliefs with vigour, but I have not ever seen him unappreciative of others or looking down on others. He has even shown me where I was almost descending to the level of insults and graciously accepted my apology. Since then I try to package my understanding in a non aggressive way.

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against you trying to spread your message, as long as it is not force fed to others who are unable or unwilling to accept it. I am in no need of your comfort, but I do appreciate your concern. Just try to accept that fact and focus on the ones that are receptive. But do not tell me that I should not express my understanding or refrain from engaging in a debate.

RhodaRose:

Yes, believing does have a lot of explanatory power to explain things that have no natural explanation...so why do you expect us to explain and prove to you things that have no natural explanation? You won't believe until we prove it to you but there is no way to prove it to you because it defies natural explanations, therefore "Only Believe"

RhodaRose

I was talking about the psychological comfort the belief in a supreme being can offer. People ultimately need focus and purpose to get on with life. The fact the there ultimately is no such thing in the universe is discomforting and troubling to many. For these people, belief can help them keep sane. It can be hard for children to hear that Santa Clause does not exist and that there are no elves on the North Pole. I have the same feeling regarding theistic beliefs as parents have for their children's beliefs in Santa Clause.

nferyn,

I would not want to associate with anything intolerant. I tolerate all behavior, as long as it is not harmful to anyone else.

Our Creator is Holy. In order to enter His presence we must be Holy.
Any behavior effects someone, even if it is only the person presenting the behavior.

And I still do not understand how I have shown any hate toward God. You contradict yourself ...

Yes, it seems I did...but you say:

When I meditate in a natural surrounding (e.g. on a mountain) , I can reach a state of absolute peace and tranquility that is immensely fulfilling. I become one with my surroundings and feel the divine (that's why I do have a pantheistic religious feeling, although it does not include an entity external from the natural world, it is the natural world)

The Creator made this for you to enjoy and find peace and tranquility in. When you "feel the divine" this is His Love you feel and whether you know it or not this does "include an entity external from the natural world". If it didn't then you could meditate and find peace and tranquility on the streets of a busy, bustling city.
This is not a "religious" feeling but one of Relationship with your Creator who Loves you.

I believe, if there were a supreme being, it would be impossible to picture or understand for us with our limited cognitive capabilities

Yes, you believe correctly. God is Spirit and it would be hard to "picture" Him but you can understand Him because He sent His Holy Spirit to Teach us of Him.

You are unfortunately engaging in self serving projection. How can we, with our limited abilities even think that the spirit (as a manifestation of the divine) is real. there is no way for us to know, except by relying on our own limited abilities

God does not limit our abilities when it comes to knowing Him.
A[/b]sk [b] S[/b]eek [b]K[/b]nock and He will open to you.
He wants Relationship and not "religion"

Isn't that realization wonderful enough in itself? Where's the need for an external force?

If "this world is a proving ground" Who do you think is "proving" us? and for what?
...our Creator!!

De 13:3
Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: [b]for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
De 13:4
Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

That's exactly my problem. Following God as revealed in the Bible would mean that I have to suspend my critical thinking, logic and cognitive abilities. I cannot in good conscience do that.

Yes Exactly !!! "I have to suspend my critical thinking, logic and cognitive abilities"
"I cannot in good conscience do that" Yes, you can because that "good conscience" is of the "world and flesh"...and you mention "our free will" that God gave us...He gave us this for only one purpose...to choose that His Will be done in our lives. There are really only two choices: Life or death, Choose LIFE!!!

I was talking about the psychological comfort the belief in a supreme being can offer. People ultimately need focus and purpose to get on with life. The fact the there ultimately is no such thing in the universe is discomforting and troubling to many. For these people, belief can help them keep sane.

...and this is bad?...having comfort in this uncomforting world?
"The fact the there ultimately is no such thing in the universe is discomforting and troubling to many"

Then they should read this:

Mt 11:28-30
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Joh 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed

Joh 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

God is Good, All the Time

RhodaRose

Lack of knowledge, seek for the truth the truth shall set you free. Go round the globe in any aspect of life you will still agree with me that there is a power which you can call any name. You all saw the picture sent in from MARS from man made object. Man who created you?

kenflavour, what picture from mars?

goodguy:

kenflavour, what picture from mars?

Methinks ..u mean Hnd holder not ken...aiight?

RhodaRose:

The Creator made this for you to enjoy and find peace and tranquility in. When you "feel the divine" this is His Love you feel and whether you know it or not this does "include an entity external from the natural world". If it didn't then you could meditate and find peace and tranquility on the streets of a busy, bustling city.
This is not a "religious" feeling but one of Relationship with your Creator who Loves you.

You may call it what you want. I do not believe in a creator. Only in an environment where you can deprive your senses of too much input can you reach such a state, so this will never (for me at least) be possible on a busy street. Some people can also reach that state by fasting or prayer.

RhodaRose:

Yes, you believe correctly. God is Spirit and it would be hard to "picture" Him but you can understand Him because He sent His Holy Spirit to Teach us of Him.

I don't really understand what you mean by spirit. This has no real meaning for me.

RhodaRose:

God does not limit our abilities when it comes to knowing Him.
A[/b]sk [b] S[/b]eek [b]K[/b]nock and He will open to you.
He wants Relationship and not "religion"

Again, this is very confusing. How do you know that relationship is real?

If a man believes the situation to be real,it is real in its consequences. (W.I. Thomas)

RhodaRose:

If "this world is a proving ground" Who do you think is "proving" us? and for what?
...our Creator!!

De 13:3
Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: [b]for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
De 13:4
Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

RhodaRose:

Yes Exactly !!! "I have to suspend my critical thinking, logic and cognitive abilities"
"I cannot in good conscience do that" Yes, you can because that "good conscience" is of the "world and flesh"...and you mention "our free will" that God gave us...He gave us this for only one purpose...to choose that His Will be done in our lives. There are really only two choices: Life or death, Choose LIFE!!!

If God truly exist and if God is truly good, then your actions will determine what becomes of you, not your mind, over which you have no control.

RhodaRose:

...and this is bad?...having comfort in this uncomforting world?

No, it isn't bad, absolutely not. It's just not for me.

RhodaRose:

"The fact the there ultimately is no such thing in the universe is discomforting and troubling to many"

Then they should read this:

Mt 11:28-30
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Joh 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed

Joh 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

God is Good, All the Time

RhodaRose

Again, I am happy that they can find what they seek in their belief. It is just not for me. As I said before: Following God as revealed in the Bible would mean that I have to suspend my critical thinking, logic and cognitive abilities. I cannot in good conscience do that.

nferyn,

I don't really understand what you mean by spirit. This has no real meaning for me.

We have a body (vessel) of flesh to "carry" our soul, which is our mind and 5 senses and also our spirit which is the breath of life. All of these are of the "flesh" and of the earth.

Our spirit is the "life" that makes it possible to use our "soul" of the mind and the 5 senses.

If we "die" to our flesh, this spirit of flesh, and receive the Spirit of Life and Truth then our mind and 5 senses are run by a higher power. A Power that will teach you that there is more to this life than just death of the flesh. The total of that flesh is body, soul and spirit but with the Holy Spirit entering and "reigning" in your flesh, this Spirit is unable to die because it is Life and continues on long after your flesh has returned to the dust it was taken from.

This is why Jesus said:

Joh 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Joh 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

"though he WERE dead", God sees us as dead without the Spirit of Life.
Believing brings the Spirit of Life and "yet shall he Live"

"whosoever Liveth" and continues to Believe will never die (God counts this "dying to the flesh" to receive the Spirit of Life as the only "death" you need to go through and THIS gives you the Victory over the death that satan offers you, which is only the death of the spirit of life in the flesh, which you no longer are, but you are alive in Spirit which no one can take from you.

Again, this is very confusing. How do you know that relationship is real?

The same way you know any relationship is real. You spend time together and communicate with each other. Without the other person it would feel like a part of you was missing...

If God truly exist and if God is truly good, then your actions will determine what becomes of you, not your mind, over which you have no control.

Your mind controls your actions and sure you have control of your mind, through your spirit.
If your flesh spirit is in control your mind will hear "flesh" things and be controlled by that but if the Holy Spirit is control of your mind you will hear the Spirit of Truth guiding your actions.

"...and this is bad?...having comfort in this uncomforting world?"

No, it isn't bad, absolutely not. It's just not for me.

Comfort in this world is "not for you" ?

Then by all means do not give up your "critical thinking, logic and cognitive abilities" which apparently bring you comfort and a clear conscience.

RhodaRose