true2god:
This is an auto-response without any logical input.

I ask you once again, what are the circumstances that led to Paul writing this letter to brother Timothy? If you believe in the premise of cause and effect, you will understand that Paul's advise to Timothy is not a random letter to him. What brought about that scenario?

My second question, are all Paul's letter inspired?

Now, what logical input have you made. Let's see the logical input.

JMAN05:


If I list just one watchtower or awake without a Christian bashing, will you accept to be an idiot and a fool? Ur answer.

If you claim to know 95% of our theology, this is a small request. Am waiting...

If you fail to produce any in the next 24 hours will you accept that you are a fool and equally deceptive?

JMAN05:


For once, you ve said something reasonable. Although ur KJV presents it as if teaching was among the error, this is not likely the case.

However, it still doesn't help to support that women can properly/divinely authorised to teach in a church service. It doesn't support the notion that women are authorised to feed the flock. 1pet 5:1,2.

We wouldn't expect that she went to the podium and shouts "brethren, we have a topic titled fornication. God said it is OK to commit immorality". If that's what you think, sorry. Her misleading must have been done when church service is over. Or she may even have followers who dines in her recommended avenue and still attends xten meetings without her being expelled.

At any rate, she isn't a good example to reference.

Can you really 'hear' yourself here? How can you take assumptions as facts in order to present your view? The phrases 'must have been' and 'she may have even' are still guess works by you which hold no water.

She is not a good reference of course, but does not mean there are not thousands of women that are good reference. For the fact that JW held a stereotype view about women, using Paul's letter as an excuse, is not reasonable on the part of JW. And I'm 100% sure that if JW governing body change their view on this issue (especially if the light gets 'brighter') you will comply immediately.

You should learn how to reason independently without always waiting for the 'spiritual meals' from the JW authorities in Brooklyn New York, whose cookings (the doctrines they have shunned out) is subject to changes and modifications anytime, as soon as the 'light becomes brighter'.

Women Pastors are Big Time Witches.

true2god:
But a woman can give you injection at the hospital, in your buttock. Hypocrite!

Why don't you reject a female nurse giving you injection on your buttock, while you smile in pain? Go and read the genesis why Paul gave that instruction to the early church then you will understand better. If you are familiar with Paul's epistles, he, in various occasions, let us understand that some instructions he gave, to the early church, are his personal advise/opinion without the leading of the Holy Spirit.

You need to understand that there was a great controversy concerning the role of women, in the early church, that made Paul to come up with that epistle. While I never condemned apostle Paul's advise on this matter, you have to understand the circumstances behind every epistle. In Saudi Arabia, they hire only women as midwives but in Europe most midwives are men, why? That's cultural and social differences and that does not make Saudi Arabia or Europe better.

What is the spiritual consequence of a woman leading a Christian congregation? Can you state some? Are you saying God wil never answer a prayer session led by a woman?

A woman can be appointed by a man to teach in the church in the absence of a capable man but a woman cannot be the General Overseer of a ministry. Thanks.

Martinez19:
*facepalms * women are not permitted to teach in A CHURCH GATHERING o. they are to remain silent and if they have any question they are to ask their spouse at home. It seems you are hell bent on supporting women preachers rather than open mindedness. 1 corinthians 14 :34-35 and 1 corinthians 14:37-38 are not rocket sciences, just say you no wan accept. Explain those verses without insulting my intelligence.

The point is that a woman should not be in charge of a Congregation. However, a woman can be appointed by a man to lead in songs/praise worship, lead in prayers, moderate or teach as the case may be especially where there is no capable man available. Thanks.

Hairyrapunzel:

Cherry picking ke. You said preaching and teaching are different things your said bible said teach. So I asked also where bible said women preaching or being pastors is a sin?
Women are free people in Christ and there is only one body in Christ so why will Christ give better privileges to men then abandon women. A woman teaching in churches does not mean she is exercising authority over any man.

Your last sentence is the main point: a woman should not be in charge of a Congregation but can lead in prayers, teach or preach as directed by a man.

Jhaytee4all:
I don't detest to women teaching in churches. But this is why I should...

Rev.2:20-21; Notwithstanding I have a few things against you, because you suffer that woman Jezebel, which calls herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols. 21. And I gave her space repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

You see, it's not a crime or sin 4 them to teach in churches, provided they arey are not in seductive apparels. some women teachers in churches today are very carnal. They way they dress and walk etc. They are very sensual and not morally accepted by Jesus.

Such women you referred to are either not born again or backsliders. A true Christian woman can teach or preach under the directive of a man who should be the superior officer in the Church. Thanks.

JMAN05:
What here do you not understand?

It's me who should have a long time ago asked you this ''What here do you not understand?'' question
Forgive me.
I continue to underestimate the depth of your ignorance on this subject matter

JMAN05:
You are contending that only Jesus is called "pastor" (noun), and that saints have pastor applied to them as a verb. This is wrong.

I will make this easier for both of us
Produce a list of saint/believers in the NT, explicitly and specifically addressed as pastor/shepherd

JMAN05:
Didnt you see that my comment is dealing with the WORD "Pastor" itself?
Or didnt you see the pastor in quotation marks?

This more the reason, why I asked you to produce where in the NT is the WORD "Pastor" itself

Its common knowledge that there is no ''pastor'' in NT,
and that's why I warned you not to interchange "Pastor" with ''shepherd''
but you still went ahead using ''shepherd'', knowing well that you will look in vain for the word ''pastor'' in NT

JMAN05:
I am faulting your claim of using the word pastor as noun for Jesus and verb for some saints. The word was never a verb for saints. And that even the word TRANSLATED pastor is never a verb. You see me bold-face "word translated" in my reply.

Yes and that's why I've been pointing out that, the word ''Pastor or pastor'' is reserved only for Jesus, as a title and especially so when used as a noun

Saints/believers when gifted with ''how to feed'' the flock (e.g. pastors and teachers)
are carrying out function as in pastoring/shepherding verb wise and not given titles
The noun and at title is for Jesus

PMSL. Surely you cant be serious refuting pastor used as noun for Jesus
and pastoring/shepherding used as verb in relation to saints/believers

If you are, then clearly, I am no match for the level of ignorance you've so far doggedly pursued and all along been displaying

The below is your 18 pitiful attempts in listing where pastor (i.e. in singular) is mentioned in NT

1/ Matthew 9:36 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - About without Jesus
2/ Matthew 25:32 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
3/ Matthew 26:31 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
4/ Mark 6:34 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of when without Jesus
5/ Mark 14:27 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus

6/ Luke 2:8 Greek poimenes, English shepherds. Noun - Before Jesus' birth
7/ Luke 2:15 Greek poimenes, English shepherds. Noun - Leave to Jesus' birthplace
8/ Luke 2:18 Greek poimenes, English shepherds. Noun - Talked of Jesus' birth
9/ Luke 2:20 Greek poimenes, English shepherds. Noun - Back from Jesus' birthplace

10/ John 10:2 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
11/ John 10:11a Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
12/ John 10:11b Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
13/ John 10:12 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
14/ John 10:14 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
15/ John 10:16 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus

16/ Ephesians 4:11 Latin pastoris, English pastors/shepherds. Noun - Figuratives, feeding human souls

17/ Hebrews 13:20 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
18/ 1 Peter 2:25 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus

The less people know of a subject matter, the more stubbornly they think they know it
Take this as an unexpected learning opportunity
See, no pastor (i.e. as in verbatim and in singular) mentioned in NT

JMAN05:
The word translated pastor is poimen, it occurred 18 times. I ve given you all the occurrences. Or you think that since KJV used "pastors" in that verse, that all translation translated "poimen" as pastors?

I dont care what KJV, all I cared about and asked you was to give me where in NT the word pastor (i.e. in singular) is used
and specifically warned you in advance not to interchange the word pastor (i.e. in singular) with the word shepherd

JMAN05:
Psalm 23 stated that Jehovah/Yahweh is my shepherd, not Jesus. Of course, the term was still applied to Jesus in John 10:11 as I gave above

What else can I do here
than to just laugh this off

JMAN05:
Your analogy doesnt fit, since the bible itself applied the word shepherd (noun) to elders. (1Pet 5:1,2; Acts 20:28). Granted, Jehovah is the Supreme Shepherd, while Jesus is a shepherd of higher sort than human shepherds, but human shepherds were not called shepherd in the verbal sense as you claim. You have given no good proof for this.

I cant believe you wrote this
You must be working really hard to remain ignorant

Go over 1 Peter 5:2 and Acts 20:28 again for proof,
You'll find out that it is poimaino (i.e. verb) that's used
and not poimena, (i.e. noun) that's used concerning the elders

For He is our God, and we are the people of His pasture, the sheep under His care.
Today, if you hear His voice:
- Psalm 95:7

And you are my sheep, human sheep of my pasture,
and I am your God, declares the Lord GOD.”
- Ezekiel 34:31

The One and Only Shepherd (i.e. the One and Only Pastor) of souls is the self-existing all-powerful authority influence known as God
I wont go further than this on God, if I do, it'll leave you squirming

JMAN05:
That Ephesians mentioned pastors/shepherds which the lord has given to the church. Since we see that elders are thus designated in other scriptures as spiritual shepherds, this part of the scripture is still referring to the elders as gift given to feed Gods sheep. No one is instructed to feed Gods sheep, only the elders.

Your scholars understand this well, only that some under the influence of satan is setting a standard different from the one Jesus himself set. May they be accursed. I repeat, may all of them be accursed for raising commandment different from the one Jesus set. In fact, they are already disregarded. (1cor 14:37, 38; gal 1:8, 9)

Vine's Expository Dictionary, although not a JW says:

poimen >, NT:4166), "a shepherd, one who tends herds or flocks" (not merely one who feeds them), is used metaphorically of Christian "pastors," Eph 4:11. "Pastors" guide as well as feed the flock, cf. Acts 20:28, which with v. 17, indicates that this was the service committed to elders (overseers or bishops) (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

Like a fluttering sparrow or a darting swallow,
an undeserved curse does not come to rest
- Proverbs 26:2

You're not only now making this personal
but also already gone grumpy on me
and having a fit of the sulks too

JMAN05:
Goodness! Oga,
"They" is not a singular pronoun. You don pass this abeg

Wetin, wetin
Ko ara e da soun. Hold on to your knickers jor.
Ki la ngbe gan, ti oun yedi?

"They" is a singular pronoun
OK, tell. Is couple singular or plural?
Couple is a singular noun
and so therefore the "they" referring to the anonymous, one couple, in 1 Timothy 2: 11-12,14-15 is a singular pronoun

JMAN05:
If you dont understand why plural pronoun was employed, let this commentary help you. It is from your scholars:

Calvin's commentary:
"1 Timothy 2:15
In consequence of the old translation having used the expression, "the birth of children," it has been commonly thought that this clause refers to the children. But the term used by Paul to denote "child-bearing" is a single word, and therefore it must refer to the women."
(from Calvin's Commentaries)

Here we go again making this personal
What have I to do with Calvin?
Rather than facing reality and recognise the truth, you're palming me off to Calvin.
What are you trying to insinuate or achieve with the ''It is from your scholars'' remark? SMH

Your ignorance is seriously cramping any worthwhile contribution I try putting out
Just put Calvin aside, if you really want to understand 1 Timothy 2:15
or know the true and proper gist behind Paul's ''she will be saved through childbearing'' remark
(i.e. the saved during the process of giving birth to children remark)

I am not keen on going into details about the ''she will be saved through childbearing'' remark
as it will not only take pages trying to explain but will also take a lot of time
I will however advise, you look up who and what Artemis of the Ephesians (i.e. Acts 19:1-37) is
Look into the alleged role she performs during child bearing
(i.e. sparing, saving and protecting women from death during childbirth)
and/or of her strong connection with childbirth in Ephesus

There always is a point that you cross
You have to move beyond a dot
2 dots at random might give you a line or pattern
3 dots joined together however will make a picture
so, my friend, why not connect dots then
You'll get the picture, bro, after simply joining the goddess, Artemis of the Ephesians, Genesis 3:16 and Genesis 4:1 dots together

JMAN05:
The logical conclusion is that Paul gave the advise, one for men and another for women. It appears you are saying the same thing.

however, i dont agree that an anonymous couple is implied in verse 11-15. The "they" refers to women as a whole.

Yes, of course, I am saying the same thing that Paul in his layered advices, switched from the use ''men'' and ''rich or privileged women'' (i.e. he used plurals) in 1 Timothy 2:8-10 to deliberately and decidedly using ''woman'', ''man'' and ''she'' (i.e. these are singulars) in 1 Timothy 2: 11-12,14-15.

You do see, accept and agree that there is a switch from plural to singular, dont you?

JMAN05:
The "they" refers to women as a whole

Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing,
if they continue in faith and love and holiness with sobriety.
- 1 Timothy 2:15

How is it possible you say, that ''they'' refers to women as a whole?
Your assertion that ''they'' refers to women as a whole is disjointed
because you arent just not following through the different and changing pronouns in 1 Timothy 2: 11-12,14-15.
but also not closely connecting the switches from singular to plural as they should be

''she'' (i.e. the anonymous woman in 1 Timothy 2:11-12) will be saved . . .
provided they (i.e. the anonymous man and woman couple, in 1 Timothy 2:11-12) continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control (i.e. soundness of mind)

1 Timothy 2:15's ''she shall be saved'' is a singular verb, referring to one woman that she will be saved
''if they continue'', on the other hand, is a plural verb and singular pronoun/singular they,
saying if the anonymous man and woman couple of 1 Timothy 2:11-12
continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control (i.e. soundness of mind) then the woman will be saved

Why didn't Paul just use ''they'' on both ocassions, if he really was writing about/ to women as a whole? Hmm?

''she'' and “they” (i.e. the singular and plural verbs) cant both refer to women as a whole.
It'll be grammatically incorrect if it did

MuttleyLaff:
Wetin, wetin
Ko ara e da soun. Hold on to your knickers jor.
Ki la ngbe gan, ti oun yedi?

"They" is a singular pronoun
OK, tell. Is couple singular or plural?
Couple is a singular noun
and so therefore the "they" referring to the anonymous, one couple, in 1 Timothy 2: 11-12,14-15 is a singular pronoun

You have issues with parts of speech. That's glaring.

There isn't any anonymous couple in that chapter. Whether you are also seeing vision, I don't know.

Here we go again making this personal
What have I to do with Calvin?
Rather than facing reality and recognise the truth, you're palming me off to Calvin.
What are you trying to insinuate or achieve with the ''It is from your scholars'' remark? SMH

Your ignorance is seriously cramping any worthwhile contribution I try putting out
Just put Calvin aside, if you really want to understand 1 Timothy 2:15
or know the true and proper gist behind Paul's ''she will be saved through childbearing'' remark
(i.e. the saved during the process of giving birth to children remark)

I am not keen on going into details about the ''she will be saved through childbearing'' remark
as it will not only take pages trying to explain but will also take a lot of time
I will however advise, you look up who and what Artemis of the Ephesians (i.e. Acts 19:1-37) is
Look into the alleged role she performs during child bearing
(i.e. sparing, saving and protecting women from death during childbirth)
and/or of her strong connection with childbirth in Ephesus

I will look that up for knowledge sake. however, it doesn't have any connection to the discussion.

There always is a point that you cross
You have to move beyond a dot
2 dots at random might give you a line or pattern
3 dots joined together however will make a picture
so, my friend, why not connect dots then
You'll get the picture, bro, after simply joining the goddess, Artemis of the Ephesians, Genesis 3:16 and Genesis 4:1 dots together

There is no connection to the discussion I find there.

Yes, of course, I am saying the same thing that Paul in his layered advices, switched from the use ''men'' and ''rich or privileged women'' (i.e. he used plurals) in 1 Timothy 2:8-10 to deliberately and decidedly using ''woman'', ''man'' and ''she'' (i.e. these are singulars) in 1 Timothy 2: 11-12,14-15.

You do see, accept and agree that there is a switch from plural to singular, dont you?

I do.

Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing,
if they continue in faith and love and holiness with sobriety.
- 1 Timothy 2:15

How is it possible you say, that ''they'' refers to women as a whole?
Your assertion that ''they'' refers to women as a whole is disjointed
because you arent just not following through the different and changing pronouns in 1 Timothy 2: 11-12,14-15.
but also not closely connecting the switches from singular to plural as they should be

''she'' (i.e. the anonymous woman in 1 Timothy 2:11-12) will be saved . . .
provided they (i.e. the anonymous man and woman couple, in 1 Timothy 2:11-12) continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control (i.e. soundness of mind)

Where did you get this anonymous couple from?

1 Timothy 2:15's ''she shall be saved'' is a singular verb, referring to one woman that she will be saved

What are you referring to as a singular verb there?

''if they continue'', on the other hand, is a plural verb and singular pronoun/singular they,
saying if the anonymous man and woman couple of 1 Timothy 2:11-12
continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control (i.e. soundness of mind) then the woman will be saved

Continue is plural verb, but "they" is plural pronoun. If you don't want to tell yourself the truth, I ll withdraw from this discussion.

Why didn't Paul just use ''they'' on both ocassions, if he really was writing about/ to women as a whole? Hmm?

The "they" is informing you that what he said immediately above doesn't refer to one woman, but women.

His subject was role of men and women in the congregation. So, in discussing women, he used they to show that what he said above apply to all women.

Some translations worded it in a way it came clearly:

An American Translation says "but they will be saved through motherhood, if they continue to have faith..."

A New Translation of The Bible by Moffatt says "However, women will be safely through childbirth, f they continue to be faithful..."

The New Testament A Translation in the Language of the people reads: "But women will be saved through motherhood..."

So that place is referring to women as a whole. If these and the commentary doesn't convince you, then let it slide.

''she'' and “they” (i.e. the singular and plural verbs) cant both refer to women as a whole.
It'll be grammatically incorrect if it did

You have issues with parts of speech. It helps to consult ones note you know.

MuttleyLaff:

It's me who should have a long time ago asked you this ''What here do you not understand?'' question
Forgive me.
I continue to underestimate the depth of your ignorance on this subject matter

I will make this easier for both of us
Produce a list of saint/believers in the NT, explicitly and specifically addressed as pastor/shepherd

This more the reason, why I asked you to produce where in the NT is the WORD "Pastor" itself

Its common knowledge that there is no ''pastor'' in NT,
and that's why I warned you not to interchange "Pastor" with ''shepherd''
but you still went ahead using ''shepherd'', knowing well that you will look in vain for the word ''pastor'' in NT



Yes and that's why I've been pointing out that, the word ''Pastor or pastor'' is reserved only for Jesus, as a title and especially so when used as a noun

Saints/believers when gifted with ''how to feed'' the flock (e.g. pastors and teachers)
are carrying out function as in pastoring/shepherding verb wise and not given titles
The noun and at title is for Jesus

PMSL. Surely you cant be serious refuting pastor used as noun for Jesus
and pastoring/shepherding used as verb in relation to saints/believers

If you are, then clearly, I am no match for the level of ignorance you've so far doggedly pursued and all along been displaying

The below is your 18 pitiful attempts in listing where pastor (i.e. in singular) is mentioned in NT

1/ Matthew 9:36 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - About without Jesus
2/ Matthew 25:32 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
3/ Matthew 26:31 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
4/ Mark 6:34 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of when without Jesus
5/ Mark 14:27 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus

6/ Luke 2:8 Greek poimenes, English shepherds. Noun - Before Jesus' birth
7/ Luke 2:15 Greek poimenes, English shepherds. Noun - Leave to Jesus' birthplace
8/ Luke 2:18 Greek poimenes, English shepherds. Noun - Talked of Jesus' birth
9/ Luke 2:20 Greek poimenes, English shepherds. Noun - Back from Jesus' birthplace

10/ John 10:2 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
11/ John 10:11a Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
12/ John 10:11b Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
13/ John 10:12 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
14/ John 10:14 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
15/ John 10:16 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus

16/ Ephesians 4:11 Latin pastoris, English pastors/shepherds. Noun - Figuratives, feeding human souls

17/ Hebrews 13:20 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
18. 1 Peter 2:25 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus

The less people know of a subject matter, the more stubbornly they think they know it
Take this as an unexpected learning opportunity
See, no pastor (i.e. as in verbatim and in singular) mentioned in NT

I dont care what KJV, all I cared about and asked you was to give me where in NT the word pastor (i.e. in singular) is used
and specifically warned you in advance not to interchange the word pastor (i.e. in singular) with the word shepherd

The fact is, you didnt read my comment well. Thats why you think we were saying the same thing. I bolded what i meant and you were still reading what you mean inside what i meant. Its not my fault. Read well next time.

The issue am after is "pastor" as a noun and not whether it is singular or plural. Your position is that the word is not applied to any other person than Christ. Although i made some error above, yet your point is not proven yet, as in, that Jesus alone has the title "pastor".

There is no " pastor/shepherd" (singular) applied to a saint as you posit. You were right on that. I was wrong. That is, if we are discussing "pastor/shepherd" specifically in singular.

However, stating that "pastor/shepherd" (noun) as a title is not applied to saints is wrong.

Why? Eph 4:11 where you know the title pastors applied to some saints, it would be wrong to say such title is not applied to any saint because it occurred in the plural. That is very wrong. I ve seen no proof for that.

Go over 1 Peter 5:2 and Acts 20:28 again for proof,
You'll find out that it is poimaino (i.e. verb) that's used
and not poimena, (i.e. noun) that's used concerning the elders

You are right. Its verb. I was wrong.

For He is our God, and we are the people of His pasture, the sheep under His care.
Today, if you hear His voice:
- Psalm 95:7

And you are my sheep, human sheep of my pasture,
and I am your God, declares the Lord GOD.”
- Ezekiel 34:31

The One and Only Shepherd (i.e. the One and Only Pastor) of souls is the self-existing all-powerful authority influence known as God
I wont go further than this on God, if I do, it'll leave you squirming

Like a fluttering sparrow or a darting swallow,
an undeserved curse does not come to rest
- Proverbs 26:2

There is no doubt that Jehovah is the Supreme Shepherd. However, he has also instructed some humans to shepherd His sheep. Although it occurred as a verb, one who shepherds a sheep is a shepherd.

Secondly, Eph 4:11 identifies humans as such.

true2god:
Can you really 'hear' yourself here? How can you take assumptions as facts in order to present your view? The phrases 'must have been' and 'she may have even' are still guess works by you which hold no water.

They are not guess works, they are reasonable possibilities. She is not authorised to teach jna church service, so there are other areas in which she can teach that are not church service. No one can say which type was what she did, but what I have given are possibilities. That she taught in a church service isn't part of the options. Jesus commandment with regards to women is clear. No demon can restate that.

She is not a good reference of course, but does not mean there are not thousands of women that are good reference. For the fact that JW held a stereotype view about women, using Paul's letter as an excuse, is not reasonable on the part of JW. And I'm 100% sure that if JW governing body change their view on this issue (especially if the light gets 'brighter') you will comply immediately.

No gov body changes are without sound reason. If you present good proofs for your claim, my dear I will accept it, Gov Body or no Gov Body. I didn't dedicate my life to a GB. That being said, get to work and stop laziness. Give me scriptural proofs.

You should learn how to reason independently without always waiting for the 'spiritual meals' from the JW authorities in Brooklyn New York, whose cookings (the doctrines they have shunned out) is subject to changes and modifications anytime, as soon as the 'light becomes brighter'.

This is a logical fallacy called Ad hominem (circumstantial). The claim holds no water in a logical discussion. So grow up and learn to offer reasons for your stand instead of appealing to motives.

You have your church, I can equally accuse you that what you say stems from your religious affiliation. Excuse from lazy people who can't prove there point.

JMAN05:
You have issues with parts of speech. That's glaring.

There isn't any anonymous couple in that chapter. Whether you are also seeing vision, I don't know

Seeing visions? My man got jokes

JMAN05:
I will look that up for knowledge sake. however, it doesn't have any connection to the discussion

Dont be too hasty to make dismissive remarks before doing your looking that up for knowledge sake

JMAN05:
There is no connection to the discussion I find there.

You will eat these words
Personally I would've dropped a comment after looking up for knowledge sake

JMAN05:
I do

Good

JMAN05:
Where did you get this anonymous couple from?

You scoop petroleum from the surface
Pick up diamonds on the ground. Pearls float on water surface isnt it
You've fallen victim to surface level bible reading and studying

Remember particular letter Paul wrote to Timothy started at 1 Timothy 1 and not 1 Timothy 2
Paul began 1 Timothy 1, by first reminding Timothy of how he told Timothy to stay at Ephesus
so Timothy can stop men teaching strange doctrines (i.e. false teaching)
Fast forward 1 Timothy 1 to 1 Timothy 2, things have gone from bad to worse

I'll leave you after your knowledge quest to draw in the line to the goddess (i.e. Artemis of the Ephesians), Genesis 3:16 and Genesis 4:1 dots

JMAN05:
What are you referring to as a singular verb there?

What is a verb?
- a word used to describe an action, condition, experience, state, occurrence
and forming the main part of the predicate of a sentence
such as hear, become, happen, shall be saved

When a singular subject (i.e. she) gives you singular verb ''she shall be saved''
It is that singular subject, one woman, who is, will be saved

JMAN05:
Continue is plural verb,
but "they" is plural pronoun.
If you don't want to tell yourself the truth, I ll withdraw from this discussion.

What gender is ''couple''?
Please give me an answer now

"They" is a singular pronoun
OK, tell. Is couple singular or plural?
Couple is a singular noun, firstly, because ''couple'' has no gender
Secondly, because ''couple'' here is one
and so therefore the "they" referring to the anonymous, one couple, in 1 Timothy 2: 11-12,14-15 is a singular pronoun

JMAN05:
The "they" is informing you that what he said immediately above doesn't refer to one woman, but women

Why arent I surprised you're sticking to your unloaded guns

JMAN05:
His subject was role of men and women in the congregation. So, in discussing women, he used they to show that what he said above apply to all women.
Some translations worded it in a way it came clearly:

An American Translation says "but they will be saved through motherhood, if they continue to have faith..."

A New Translation of The Bible by Moffatt says "However, women will be safely through childbirth, f they continue to be faithful..."

The New Testament A Translation in the Language of the people reads: "But women will be saved through motherhood..."
So that place is referring to women as a whole. If these and the commentary doesn't convince you, then let it slide.

You have issues with parts of speech. It helps to consult ones note you know.

SMH
It really is true that theology does influence our translation

JMAN05:
The fact is, you didnt read my comment well. Thats why you think we were saying the same thing. I bolded what i meant and you were still reading what you mean inside what i meant. Its not my fault.
Read well next time

You might pride yourself
but I never thought, think or say we were saying the same thing

JMAN05:
The issue am after is "pastor" as a noun and not whether it is singular or plural

And I am telling the issue you're after is a non issue
because there is no pastor (i.e. verbatim like that) in the New Testament

JMAN05:
Your position is that the word is not applied to any other person than Christ

110% bible correct

JMAN05:
Although i made some error above, yet your point is not proven yet, as in, that Jesus alone has the title "pastor"

I hear you.
Continue upadan be calling yourselves pastor(s) then

JMAN05:
There is no " pastor/shepherd" (singular) applied to a saint as you posit. You were right on that. I was wrong. That is, if we are discussing "pastor/shepherd" specifically in singular

Learning is never done without errors Thank you for being gracious. Your honesty is admirable.
but hey anytime you read saints concerning "pastor/shepherd" it's mostly, if not all, in the singular and usage is a verb
(i.e. doing, action thing) not as a noun (i.e. title, office things)

JMAN05:
However, stating that "pastor/shepherd" (noun) as a title is not applied to saints is wrong.

Why? Eph 4:11 where you know the title pastors applied to some saints, it would be wrong to say such title is not applied to any saint because it occurred in the plural. That is very wrong. I ve seen no proof for that.

My brother, if you want to be called and prepend your names with Pastor, that's fine.
You arent answerable to me.
You wont be giving account and explaining yourself to me

JMAN05:
You are right. Its verb. I was wrong

Well...

JMAN05:
There is no doubt that Jehovah is the Supreme Shepherd.
However, he has also instructed some humans to shepherd His sheep.
Although it occurred as a verb, one who shepherds a sheep is a shepherd.

Secondly, Eph 4:11 identifies humans as such.

Just because the Shepherd asked you to feed His flock in absentia,
then that automatically and officially makes you a shepherd
Yeah right.

MuttleyLaff:
You might pride yourself
but I never thought, think or say we were saying the same thing

And I am telling the issue you're after is a non issue
because there is no pastor (i.e. verbatim like that) in the New Testament

110% bible correct

I hear you.
Continue upadan be calling yourselves pastor(s) then

Learning is never done without errors Thank you for being gracious. Your honesty is admirable.
but hey anytime you read saints concerning "pastor/shepherd" it's mostly, if not all, in the singular and usage is a verb
(i.e. doing, action thing) not as a noun (i.e. title, office things)

My brother, if you want to be called and prepend your names with Pastor, that's fine.
You arent answerable to me.
You wont be giving account and explaining yourself to me

Well...

Just because the Shepherd asked you to feed His flock in absentia,
then that automatically and officially makes you a shepherd
Yeah right.

I don't think we have anything here again to discuss. You don't posit that elders cant be called shepherds. Yes, no human should be given such as a title. But eph4:11 occurs as a noun. If you don't object to this, the discussion is done with.

MuttleyLaff:
Seeing visions? My man got jokes

Dont be too hasty to make dismissive remarks before doing your looking that up for knowledge sake

You will eat these words
Personally I would've dropped a comment after looking up for knowledge sake

Good

You scoop petroleum from the surface
Pick up diamonds on the ground. Pearls float on water surface isnt it
You've fallen victim to surface level bible reading and studying

Remember particular letter Paul wrote to Timothy started at 1 Timothy 1 and not 1 Timothy 2
Paul began 1 Timothy 1, by first reminding Timothy of how he told Timothy to stay at Ephesus
so Timothy can stop men teaching strange doctrines (i.e. false teaching)
Fast forward 1 Timothy 1 to 1 Timothy 2, things have gone from bad to worse

I'll leave you after your knowledge quest to draw in the line to the goddess (i.e. Artemis of the Ephesians), Genesis 3:16 and Genesis 4:1 dots

What is a verb?
- a word used to describe an action, condition, experience, state, occurrence
and forming the main part of the predicate of a sentence
such as hear, become, happen, shall be saved

When a singular subject (i.e. she) gives you singular verb ''she shall be saved''
It is that singular subject, one woman, who is, will be saved

What gender is ''couple''?
Please give me an answer now

"They" is a singular pronoun
OK, tell. Is couple singular or plural?
Couple is a singular noun, firstly, because ''couple'' has no gender
Secondly, because ''couple'' here is one
and so therefore the "they" referring to the anonymous, one couple, in 1 Timothy 2: 11-12,14-15 is a singular pronoun

Why arent I surprised you're sticking to your unloaded guns

SMH
It really is true that theology does influence our translation

You haven't given any prove yet. No anonymous couple occur in the place we are discussing. I don't see the role of Artemis on what we are discussing. Only if you give relevance of your point to the issue being disccused can I reply your comments.

If can't show its relevance, then the discussion is over. I can't reply to what I don't know its relevance. Check the purpose of the thread and reply accordingly.

JMAN05:
I don't think we have anything here again to discuss.
You don't posit that elders cant be called shepherds.

Imagine if my hands werent gloved
I have continually posited that elders CANT be called shepherds

Elders are called to shepherd the flock, isnt same as, elders are called shepherds
The former is whats expected of elders and not the latter

JMAN05:
Yes, no human should be given such as a title.

Good you accept this.
Not even Shepherd, right?
At least you're consistent, in keeping slowly coming around

JMAN05:
But Eph 4:11 occurs as a noun.

There is neither Jew nor Greek,
there is neither slave nor free,
there is neither male and female;
for you are all one in Christ Jesus
- Galatians 3:28

But Eph 4:11 occurs as a noun is a specious argument
Pity its in plural though
but then I guess that's your one and only lifeline.
and no where else would you find this repeated
PSML, a drowning man will clutch at a straw

JMAN05:
If you don't object to this, the discussion is done with

We are here to feed the sheep, not to entertain the goats
but if you, now, feel like leaving, I am not going to stop you
Soon you'll find that running away or hiding was futile
because someday, you'll look back
and suddenly know exactly all that's discussed so far

JMAN05:
You haven't given any prove yet.

The change from using plural to using singular, is the proof, that Paul is addressing an unnamed woman in 1 Timothy 2:11-12

JMAN05:
No anonymous couple occur in the place we are discussing.
I don't see the role of Artemis on what we are discussing

You're in denial
and, unwilling, though harsh it maybe, to accept reality

No, not just any ordinary Artemis
but talking of this particular goddess, called, Artemis of the Ephesians
(i.e. this goddess, known as Artemis of the Ephesians, is that prominent enough, to be actually mentioned, at least 5 times, in Acts 19)

Things are never as straightforward as we might at first imagined my friend
When you put the pieces together, you will see the role of the goddess, Artemis of the Ephesians on what's being discussed
Paul is debunking the woman's teaching and refusing to allow this woman a platform to spread & promote her false teaching(s)

JMAN05:
Only if you give relevance of your point to the issue being disccused can I reply your comments.

If you can't show its relevance, then the discussion is over.
I can't reply to what I don't know its relevance

Unfortunately I am not big into spoon feeding grown ups

You have no choice than to back out because you've ran out of steam.
You're unable to piece the story together.

You're in water, too deep to stand in
and to make matters worse, you havent got a lifebuoy
So swim back to shore, whilst you still can, before the undercurrent overwhelms you

JMAN05:
Check the purpose of the thread and reply accordingly

A pastor is a Shepherd,
and women are not reckoned as such in the bible

So why do some churches have female pastors.
Does it mean that they don't read the bible?
1 Tim 2:11-12
- © JMAN05

The above is your intro sentence
It is repeated here to highlight, there is no purpose to a thread that begins with a tautology
On several fronts, the thread is DOA (i.e. dead on arrival)
and shouldnt have warranted being accorded any replies

Aside you starting off on the wrong foot with the tautology thing, women and men are not Shepherd
The proper case Shepherd, you used in the sentence after your tautology, is used only for God
and not used for humans (i.e. Shepherd is not and never used for any man or woman)

You mentioned: ''some churches have female pastors''
then asked: ''Does it mean that they don't read the bible''
and ended with: quoting 1 Tim 2:11-12,
obviously referrring to 1 Tim 2:12's ''I do not permit a woman to teach...'' to make a point

That last sentence, above, from your intro post, too, has another faux pas
So please, here is a question, I am extremely anxious for you to reply to:
Do women sing songs in ekklessia, ''church'', congregation
or sing songs in Jehovah Witness gatherings, where men are present?

Everything is done by Faith.

MuttleyLaff:
The change from using plural to using singular, is the proof, that Paul is addressing an unnamed woman in 1 Timothy 2:11-12

Such a weak point. The context is about the role of men and women in the church. No prove of your anonymous couple. I have given different translations of the bible and a commentary that shows "they" refers to women, but no, you still see vision.

You're in denial
and, unwilling, though harsh it maybe, to accept reality

No you are the one in denial to accept the truth. You are still in a phantasm, seeing what doesn't exist.

I have given different biblntranslati

No, not just any ordinary Artemis
but talking of this particular goddess, called, Artemis of the Ephesians
(i.e. this goddess, known as Artemis of the Ephesians, is that prominent enough, to be actually mentioned, at least 5 times, in Acts 19)

Things are never as straightforward as we might at first imagined my friend
When you put the pieces together, you will see the role of the goddess, Artemis of the Ephesians on what's being discussed
Paul is debunking the woman's teaching and refusing to allow this woman a platform to spread & promote her false teaching(s)

There isn't any prove that this is what Paul was doing. Artemis isn't a living woman in Ephesus during Paul's day. So what are you saying?

A pastor is a Shepherd,
and women are not reckoned as such in the bible

So why do some churches have female pastors.
Does it mean that they don't read the bible?
1 Tim 2:11-12
- © JMAN05

The above is your intro sentence
It is repeated here to highlight, there is no purpose to a thread that begins with a tautology
On several fronts, the thread is DOA (i.e. dead on arrival)
and shouldnt have warranted being accorded any replies

Aside you starting off on the wrong foot with the tautology thing, women and men are not Shepherd
The proper case Shepherd, you used in the sentence after your tautology, is used only for God
and not used for humans (i.e. Shepherd is not and never used for any man or woman)

Instead of you to go straight to the point, and offer proves, you are here exposing your ignorance. How can you use "men and women" and also used "are" and now accompany it with a singular noun?

'Shepherd is not used for any man or woman?' My op used "pastors". You agree that " pastors" refers to some saints, yet you call the op tautology. Even after quoting a phrase, you still don't see clearly. Keep shooting yourself.

When Eph 4:11 used it. It was used for animals, not humans? Or you think that when the word is used for more than one human, it should appear in the singular?

When someone's work is to Shepherd a sheep, that person is not the same as a shepherd? Haughtiness is blinding you. It appears that when I admitted to a mistake, you allowed that to increase your ego.

You mentioned: ''some churches have female pastors''
then asked: ''Does it mean that they don't read the bible''
and ended with: quoting 1 Tim 2:11-12,
obviously referrring to 1 Tim 2:12's ''I do not permit a woman to teach...'' to make a point

That last sentence, above, from your intro post, too, has another faux pas
So please, here is a question, I am extremely anxious for you to reply to:
Do women sing songs in ekklessia, ''church'', congregation
or sing songs in Jehovah Witness gatherings, where men are present?

Women are not permitted to teach in a church service, such feeding is left for men. You are here asking about singing. Don't see the connection.

MuttleyLaff:
Imagine if my hands werent gloved
I have continually posited that elders CANT be called shepherds

Elders are called to shepherd the flock, isnt same as, elders are called shepherds
The former is whats expected of elders and not the latter

If ones work is to feed the flock, he is a shepherd. Agreed?

Good you accept this.
Not even Shepherd, right?
At least you're consistent, in keeping slowly coming around

Yap because Jesus condemn religious titles for his followers. (Matt 23:1-12) However, they do work as shepherds.

There is neither Jew nor Greek,
there is neither slave nor free,
there is neither male and female;
for you are all one in Christ Jesus
- Galatians 3:28

But Eph 4:11 occurs as a noun is a specious argument
Pity its in plural though

Being in plural doesn't make any difference.

We are here to feed the sheep, not to entertain the goats
but if you, now, feel like leaving, I am not going to stop you
Soon you'll find that running away or hiding was futile
because someday, you'll look back
and suddenly know exactly all that's discussed so far

Not only will you acknowledge your inability to prove that women should feed the flock, but others following the thread will see that Satan is shamed, he has fought in vain to change the commandment of the lord. 1cor 14:37,38.

JMAN05:
Such a weak point. The context is about the role of men and women in the church. No prove of your anonymous couple. I have given different translations of the bible and a commentary that shows "they" refers to women, but no, you still see vision

PSML

JMAN05:
No you are the one in denial to accept the truth. You are still in a phantasm, seeing what doesn't exist.

I hear you

JMAN05:
I have given different bible translations

I know you've read me post that, it's true that theology does influence our translation
especially theology centred around deeply held prejudices

JMAN05:
There isn't any prove that this is what Paul was doing.
Artemis isn't a living woman in Ephesus during Paul's day. So what are you saying?

PSML.
Did anyone say Artemis is/was a living woman in Ephesus during Paul's day?
O ma se oo. You really havent a clue

JMAN05:
Instead of you to go straight to the point, and offer proves, you are here exposing your ignorance. How can you use "men and women" and also used "are" and now accompany it with a singular noun?

You're out of your depth mate

JMAN05:
Shepherd is not used for any man or woman?' My op used "pastors". You agree that "pastors" refers to some saints, yet you call the op tautology. Even after quoting a phrase, you still don't see clearly. Keep shooting yourself.

I agreed to no such thing
Quote me verbatim where I did so, if not then retract this statement

JMAN05:
When Eph 4:11 used it. It was used for animals, not humans? Or you think that when the word is used for more than one human, it should appear in the singular?

Did I not warn you in advance against using plurals?
Did I not warn you in advance not to interchange shepherd with pastor?

JMAN05:
When someone's work is to Shepherd a sheep, that person is not the same as a shepherd? Haughtiness is blinding you.
It appears that when I admitted to a mistake, you allowed that to increase your ego

You wouldnt like me take you on and respond to that question
Someone's work? SMH.

I do some many works at home,
yet no one thinks I am same as a doctor, mechanic, plumber, chef, chauffeur, dry-cleaner etcetera

PSML. Haughtiness ke?
The truth is way more important than ego to me

JMAN05:
Women are not permitted to teach in a church service, such feeding is left for men. You are here asking about singing. Don't see the connection.

PMSL
Just answer the question now. You will see the connection if you had answered
So, here is the question again, that I am extremely anxious for you to reply to:
Do women sing songs in ekklessia, ''church'', congregation
or sing songs in Jehovah Witness gatherings, where men are present?
Is it Yes or No?

JMAN05:
If ones work is to feed the flock, he is a shepherd. Agreed?

I would have gladly agreed if there is one, just one saint in the NT called a shepherd (i.e. as in a noun form)

JMAN05:
Yap because Jesus condemn religious titles for his followers. (Matt 23:1-12) However, they do work as shepherds

So if you know that Jesus condemns religious titles for saints
why then are you fariga fixated on giving saints shepherd titles or calling them shepherds

JMAN05:
Being in plural doesn't make any difference

It does make a difference, whole lot for that matter
because preemptively, I did warn you not to bring forwards plurals

Nothing spoilt. Maybe, another time or day, I'll share why the significance of Eph 4:11's pastor plurality
and why when concerning saints, we always have plural shepherds and/or plural pastors (i.e. in verb form)
Its the same reason why, by divine providence, there isnt a biblical NT recorded, singular noun pastor/shepherd used for saints

JMAN05:
Not only will you acknowledge your inability to prove that women should feed the flock, but others following the thread will see that Satan is shamed, he has fought in vain to change the commandment of the Lord. 1 Cor 14:37, 38.

PSML. I bet women really dont speak in ekklesia except when they get home
Out of curiousty, please do indulge
Give us inexhaustible examples of how the flock is fed

MuttleyLaff:
PSML

I hear you

I know you've read me post that, it's true that theology does influence our translation
especially theology centred around deeply held prejudices

Both those translations and a scholar article support that the stament is about women. You refuse because it doesn't agree with your position. Calvin and others are prejudiced and you aren't cos you chose to hate truth so that women can view you as there hero. So we should follow you MOST holy interpreter. Just so that your anonymous fabricated couple can live. You are entitled to your opinion.

PSML.
Did anyone say Artemis is/was a living woman in Ephesus during Paul's day?
O ma se oo. You really havent a clue

What does this mean:

No, not just any ordinary Artemis
but talking of this particular goddess, called, Artemis of the Ephesians
(i.e. this goddess, known as Artemis of the Ephesians, is that prominent enough, to be actually mentioned, at least 5 times, in Acts 19)

Things are never as straightforward as we might at first imagined my friend
When you put the pieces together, you will see the role of the goddess, Artemis of the Ephesians on what's being discussed
Paul is debunking the woman's teaching and refusing to allow this woman a platform to spread & promote her false teaching(s)

Tell me how another person will understand that statement.

I agreed to no such thing
Quote me verbatim where I did so, if not then retract this statement

When you have a detached words like "Yeah right", what do you expect?

Wait, you mean you do not accept that pastors was used for some saints??

It appears I misjudge you when I saw you as being sincere. And if such quality is lacking in you, I ll stop any further discussion with you. Ask others about my method. You have better be open to accept what is true, otherwise, look for another person to discuss with. Not me. Am Not in nairaland for childish play.

So eph 4:11 is not about some saints?

Did I not warn you in advance against using plurals?
Did I not warn you in advance not to interchange shepherd with pastor?

It appears you are not here to discuss the topic of the thread. If Christ appointed some as pastors, you will with your right senses say that no human is ever reckoned as pastor? What is wrong with you. Do you have problem with English? Don't you know that pastors refer to more than one person, and that each of the persons appointed as pastor is a pastor? My dear if we are not ready to accept simple grammatical rule and what it means, we aren't ready to learn anything. If you don't want to be truthful, do you think we can ever reach a conclusion in this discussion? We will end up wasting a time we would use for something worthwhile.

Please change your habit, its unchristian.

Interchange pastor with shepherd? Pastor translates what in Greek? Shepherd translates what in Greek? Let's hear you.

You wouldnt like me take you on and respond to that question
Someone's work? SMH.

I do some many works at home,
yet no one thinks I am same as a doctor, mechanic, plumber, chef, chauffeur, dry-cleaner etcetera

That you enagage in this activities at times, doesn't make it your work. OK, it appears this one is hard for you. Who is a Shepherd? Answer

PSML. Haughtiness ke?
The truth is way more important than ego to me

I presently doubt that. If someone can see "they" and call it singular pronoun, and see "pastors" in eph 4:11 and insist that no human was reckoned as pastor, it proves one of these:

- you have issue with English language

- you hate admitting to the truth because it kicks your boot.

PMSL
Just answer the question now. You will see the connection if you had answered
So, here is the question again, that I am extremely anxious for you to reply to:
Do women sing songs in ekklessia, ''church'', congregation
or sing songs in Jehovah Witness gatherings, where men are present?
Is it Yes or No?

They sing songs, but remain silent when issue affecting the feeding of the sheep is discussed in church service. They are not authorised to challenge men, or feed the flock, but to learn in silence.