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Pantheism - Religion (3) - Nairaland

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Let's Talk Pantheism , Shall We ? (2) (3) (4)

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Re: Pantheism by PastorAIO: 1:12pm On Jun 28, 2017
AnonyNymous:

Very very interesting. You imply that time doesn't exist. That is, time stands still. Memories of past actions are not real.

But in our 'now' we are capable of creating thoughts/images of probable future actions based on 'now'. And, our consciousness can see those images before they actually become reality, before they become 'now'. What then, is our consciousness seeing?

Based on your philosophy, it can't really be the future because for it to be so, time must exist and at one point it will become they present (and the present will become the past). What is it, then?

Time doesn't stand still. By it's definition Time is the background against which change/movement occurs.

I'm saying that Time could be invented in our minds. In which case the sense of events passing is also an illusion.

Seeing into the future would also be a part of the illusion. Things coming to pass would be a part of the illusion. Things seeming to have passed are also a part of the illusion. There is no past present or future outside of the mind.

So what are we studying? Illusion? Well, why not? This illusion called existence can be observed to follow certain patterns. So it is not just an haphazard arbitrary illusion. there is a structure to it. That structure can still be studied so we come to a better understanding of this illusion we live in.

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Re: Pantheism by PastorAIO: 1:15pm On Jun 28, 2017
Deicide:

So the thing we call Time doesnt exist?


It exists as a way of structuring our experiences, however we conjure it up ourselves and we can also continue to Experience without it.
Re: Pantheism by Oloruntobi4382(m): 4:18pm On Jun 28, 2017
Time doesn't exist. Our five senses are limited so we tend to always find methods to measure physical quantities. Everything both the future, past and present is happening now. I.e why spirits can easily(we too can) tell about the future and warn those on the physical plane.
Re: Pantheism by Nobody: 4:24pm On Jun 28, 2017
AnonyNymous:

The titles of some of the books put me off, but I've started reading the book 'hyperreality' and its turning my brain into noodles! The explanation of Newtonian reality (tensed) vs reality as propagated by Einstein (tenseless) seems far much clearer than I've ever understood it before! Thank you for these books my friend. I hope when I finish reading them all I will have a much clearer understanding of how things work in the universe
I found the ideas of the authors really interesting. Ever since reading their books, I've found viewing the world through some of the prisms they provided fascinating and amazing.

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Re: Pantheism by Nobody: 5:06pm On Jun 28, 2017
PastorAIO:


What if there is no big bang origin etc whatever?

What if all that is real is Now?!!

What if all are memories and all our history is an invention created Now?

From Now we create an illusion of a history that seems to be moving, growing more and more, giving the illusion of moving in time. But there is no temporeality. Only an Eternal Moment.
This one is new! grin
Re: Pantheism by Nobody: 5:13pm On Jun 28, 2017
PastorAIO:


Time doesn't stand still. By it's definition Time is the background against which change/movement occurs.

I'm saying that Time could be invented in our minds. In which case the sense of events passing is also an illusion.

Seeing into the future would also be a part of the illusion. Things coming to pass would be a part of the illusion. Things seeming to have passed are also a part of the illusion. There is no past present or future outside of the mind.

So what are we studying? Illusion? Well, why not? This illusion called existence can be observed to follow certain patterns. So it is not just an haphazard arbitrary illusion. there is a structure to it. That structure can still be studied so we come to a better understanding of this illusion we live in.
Existence is an ILLUSION? What kind of illusion? What caused it? How does it work? And how did you FIND OUT? If everything you think, see, hear, taste, feel and smell are a part of this ILLUSION, isn't this finding of yours just an illusion too? Doesn't that make everything meaningless? Again, I ask, WHAT KIND OF ILLUSION? Man, this is extremely extraordinary. grin
Re: Pantheism by Nobody: 5:15pm On Jun 28, 2017
Oloruntobi4382:
Time doesn't exist. Our five senses are limited so we tend to always find methods to measure physical quantities. Everything both the future, past and present is happening now. I.e why spirits can easily(we too can) tell about the future and warn those on the physical plane.
The "tenseless" theory of time. "Block" time, in other words. grin

Cc. AnonyNymous

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Re: Pantheism by PastorAIO: 6:14pm On Jun 28, 2017
Zandha:
Existence is an ILLUSION? What kind of illusion? What caused it? How does it work? And how did you FIND OUT? If everything you think, see, hear, taste, feel and smell are a part of this ILLUSION, isn't this finding of yours just an illusion too? Doesn't that make everything meaningless? Again, I ask, WHAT KIND OF ILLUSION? Man, this is extremely extraordinary. grin

You are asking a lot of questions. I hope answering you does not derail this thread.

The bottomline is.... Yes, everything is a part of the illusion including the realisation that it is a illusion.

No, it does not make everything else meaningless.

What kind of illusion? The kind we see before us. Perhaps if you could point out other kinds then I'd be better able to contrast them.

How does it work? That's an interesting line of inquiry that has had the best human minds occupied since the dawn of time.

I found out by reasoning.
Re: Pantheism by Nobody: 6:31pm On Jun 28, 2017
PastorAIO:


You are asking a lot of questions. I hope answering you does not derail this thread.

The bottomline is.... Yes, everything is a part of the illusion including the realisation that it is a illusion.

No, it does not make everything else meaningless.

What kind of illusion? The kind we see before us. Perhaps if you could point out other kinds then I'd be better able to contrast them.

How does it work? That's an interesting line of inquiry that has had the best human minds occupied since the dawn of time.

I found out by reasoning.
Okay, in respect to what BACKGROUND does this illusion exist? Is it CONCEALING something? If yes, what is it? Have you discovered it yet?

And how did you discover by reasoning? What line of reasoning did you follow? What were the steps? Can I have the details?
Re: Pantheism by PastorAIO: 7:16pm On Jun 28, 2017
Zandha:
Okay, in respect to what BACKGROUND does this illusion exist? Is it CONCEALING something? If yes, what is it? Have you discovered it yet?

And how did you discover by reasoning? What line of reasoning did you follow? What were the steps? Can I have the details?

Perhaps illusion is not the right word. Maybe it's more accurate to say 'Fabrication'.

I don't understand what you mean when you say 'to what background does it exist'.

Is it concealing something? That is not such a straight forward yes or no answer question. As human beings we're are bound by our respective perspectives. Everybody has a perspective from which (or through which) they are experiencing the world.

The problem with perspective is that, by definition, a perspective reveals certain information and conceals other information. The person looking outside from indoors can see the sun and the brightness of the day, but he cannot feel the cool breeze. On the other hand the person outdoors can feel the cool breeze too. They have different perspectives and what is revealed to one is concealed from the other and vice verse.

So a superficial answer to your question would be: 'Yes, something is always being concealed'.

What is being concealed? Ans: That which cannot be perceived from one's perspective.

Have I discovered it yet? I discover it bit by bit everyday.


My reasoning is as follows:....

1) I am not aware of everything. I am only aware of what is present before me, yet I have a believe that what is before is only a fraction of the entire existence of the universe.

2) In my experience those things of which I am unaware can suddenly spring into aware as an observable phenomenon or a factor in my projects that I hadn't considered. This happens all the time that I make contingency plans for the unknown factor whenever I plan things. But apart from experience I also have a priori belief that my perceptions are but a fraction of existence.

3) I feel there should be a third step/point but I can't think of one so just hold this for a minute and mull on it.

ps. You say it is extremely extraordinary but actually I find it all quite ordinary. Nothing extra inside at all at all.

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Re: Pantheism by kkins25(m): 4:51am On Jun 29, 2017
I agree with you PastorAiO, time is an illusion. Created by what we perceive it to be via our physical senses.. Time is non linear in the sense that the past the present and the future are all happening simontaneousy.
We are in cocncord to whem you say that reality is what the individual percieve it to be.
[b] we create our own reality[b/]
All the diseases, money, landscape, natural disaster, death, and even our bodies are created at a subconscious level. There is more to reality than what we perceive it to be by our physical senses.

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Re: Pantheism by kkins25(m): 4:56am On Jun 29, 2017
AmunaNo1:
I'll send it via email. hope I can do that through this forum.
i"ll PM u
Re: Pantheism by Nobody: 9:38am On Jun 29, 2017
PastorAIO:


Time doesn't stand still. By it's definition Time is the background against which change/movement occurs.

I'm saying that Time could be invented in our minds. In which case the sense of events passing is also an illusion.

Seeing into the future would also be a part of the illusion. Things coming to pass would be a part of the illusion. Things seeming to have passed are also a part of the illusion. There is no past present or future outside of the mind.

So what are we studying? Illusion? Well, why not? This illusion called existence can be observed to follow certain patterns. So it is not just an haphazard arbitrary illusion. there is a structure to it. That structure can still be studied so we come to a better understanding of this illusion we live in.
Hmm, interesting. So what are some of the conclusions that have been drawn from the study of the Eternal Moment and the illusion of time?
Re: Pantheism by ifenes(m): 9:46am On Jun 29, 2017
kkins25:
I agree with you PastorAiO, time is an illusion. Created by what we perceive it to be via our physical senses.. Time is non linear in the sense that the past the present and the future are all happening simontaneousy.
We are in cocncord to whem you say that reality is what the individual percieve it to be.
[b] we create our own reality[b/]
All the diseases, money, landscape, natural disaster, death, and even our bodies are created at a subconscious level. There is more to reality than what we perceive it to be by our physical senses.

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Re: Pantheism by ifenes(m): 9:47am On Jun 29, 2017
Oloruntobi4382:
Time doesn't exist. Our five senses are limited so we tend to always find methods to measure physical quantities. Everything both the future, past and present is happening now. I.e why spirits can easily(we too can) tell about the future and warn those on the physical plane.

2 Likes

Re: Pantheism by PastorAIO: 9:54am On Jun 29, 2017
AnonyNymous:

Hmm, interesting. So what are some of the conclusions that have been drawn from the study of the Eternal Moment and the illusion of time?

Too many!! Where do you want to start? Go to any bookstore and pick up any book on science etc, you will see some conclusions, you will see some speculations, and you will see some outright mysteries.
Re: Pantheism by Nobody: 10:00am On Jun 29, 2017
Zandha:
The "tenseless" theory of time. "Block" time, in other words. grin

Cc. AnonyNymous
Yup, that concept kept me thinking at night, lol. That everything has already happened and basically time is just like a co-ordinate system. Our consciousness then currently experiencing the time relative to our motion.
Re: Pantheism by Nobody: 1:28pm On Jun 29, 2017
AnonyNymous:

Yup, that concept kept me thinking at night, lol. That everything has already happened and basically time is just like a co-ordinate system. Our consciousness then currently experiencing the time relative to our motion.
After reading the 17 books and the accompanying CODED novels, I've been trying to buy the other books of the series on Amazon, but to no avail. Probably because my credit card is not a Master card. It is possible that you might want to buy the others after reading all 17. When you do make the purchases, would you mind helping me with them?

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Re: Pantheism by Nobody: 1:39pm On Jun 29, 2017
PastorAIO, never mind that I didn't bother replying your mention. I actually don't quite understand where you're coming from. Perhaps I'm not so ready for the reception of your ideas. smiley
Re: Pantheism by PastorAIO: 1:41pm On Jun 29, 2017
AnonyNymous:

Yup, that concept kept me thinking at night, lol. That everything has already happened and basically time is just like a co-ordinate system. Our consciousness then currently experiencing the time relative to our motion.

What about not only everything but every possibility has already happened? E.g at 2 o'clock tomorrow not only is such and such event that will occur already in existence, but also every possible event that could but won't occur is already in existence.
Re: Pantheism by PastorAIO: 2:00pm On Jun 29, 2017
Zandha:
PastorAIO, never mind that I didn't bother replying your mention. I actually don't quite understand where you're coming from. Perhaps I'm not so ready for the reception of your ideas. smiley

That's okay.

There are different types of Theories. Some theories of Agency. Some Theories of Mechanisms.

A difference between theories of Agency and Mechanism is the kind of questions asked. Theories of Agency address the question of 'Who did it' or 'what did it'. Theories of Mechanism address the question of 'How is it done' without bothering with the agent.

For example. Gold Mining. We can ask who the miner is. we can argue over who the miner is. Or again, we can ask how the hill is mined regardless of who is doing the mining.

Modern Science addresses the issue of Mechanism. The 'How things happen'.
Religious cults have tried to address both issues. They will claim that 'God' did it. Who won the battle? God did! The thing with theories of Agency is that they are almost unassailable when it comes to big cosmological matters.
However where most religious cults run into trouble is when they attempt to answer the issue of the mechanisms of existence. The 'How' things are done. Time and again they have been proven to be ignorant and pompously deluded when it comes to explaining the mechanisms of life.
If for instance they would just stop at saying 'God created the universe' Full stop. They might get away with a lot more. But instead they attempt to explain how he did it, in how many days, and in what order. This is where they get up ended.
If they had ducked the mechanism question then whatever scientific discovery comes along they can say, ' ah that must be how God did it, maybe'.


What has all this got to do with my own rants?

Well, what I have to say about Temporality vs Eternity has no bearing whatsoever on the mechanism of how Temporal existence proceeds from one non existent moment in time to another non existent moment in time.

So when you ask what conclusions can be reached from the study of illusory time, the answer is no different from what conclusions can be reached by studying the illusion even if you didn't think it was an illusion.

Physics studies Nature as we perceive it. Metaphysics studies beyond physics and so can have no bearing on the nuts and bolts of how nature itself seems to work.

I hope that makes it clearer even if a little bit long winded.
Re: Pantheism by Nobody: 2:02pm On Jun 29, 2017
Zandha:
After reading the 17 books and the accompanying CODED novels, I've been trying to buy the other books of the series on Amazon, but to no avail. Probably because my credit card is not a Master card. It is possible that you might want to buy the others after reading all 17. When you do make the purchases, would you mind helping me with them?
No problem man but for now I have enough 'food' to last me quite a while!
Re: Pantheism by Nobody: 2:12pm On Jun 29, 2017
PastorAIO:


What about not only everything but every possibility has already happened? E.g at 2 o'clock tomorrow not only is such and such event that will occur already in existence, but also every possible event that could but won't occur is already in existence.
That's the multiverse theory, right? The only problem I have with all these is where 'free will' comes in. I find it hard to believe that free will is just an illusion. . . We form our opinions on these topics based on our understanding of the theriesy behind them and how much correlation we can see in real life. While the theories are very fascinating, I just can't shake off the feeling that free will is not a mere illusion.

So I thought, what if all possible events are existing in different, parallel universes and our consciousness is moving from universe to universe to experience these events based on the decisions we take? Does that make sense?

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Re: Pantheism by swegiedon(m): 2:15pm On Jun 29, 2017
Oloruntobi4382:
Time doesn't exist. Our five senses are limited so we tend to always find methods to measure physical quantities. Everything both the future, past and present is happening now. I.e why spirits can easily(we too can) tell about the future and warn those on the physical plane.
could you mind showing us how we can
Re: Pantheism by swegiedon(m): 2:20pm On Jun 29, 2017
PastorAIO:



It exists as a way of structuring our experiences, however we conjure it up ourselves and we can also continue to Experience without it.
true talk.time is an illusion
Re: Pantheism by PastorAIO: 3:08pm On Jun 29, 2017
AnonyNymous:

That's the multiverse theory, right? The only problem I have with all these is where 'free will' comes in. I find it hard to believe that free will is just an illusion. . . We form our opinions on these topics based on our understanding of the theriesy behind them and how much correlation we can see in real life. While the theories are very fascinating, I just can't shake off the feeling that free will is not a mere illusion.

So I thought, what if all possible events are existing in different, parallel universes and our consciousness is moving from universe to universe to experience these events based on the decisions we take? Does that make sense?

So there's a name for it. Multiverse.


Free Will.
Do you have character? Or at the very least would you say you have Characteristics if not character?

Is there anything in this world that doesn't have it's own distinct characteristics?
What about God? Does God have a distinct defining character?
IF so, then can God act outside of Character? Can you act out of character? Can water exhibit behaviours that are not in keeping with it's molecular structure? e.g can Water boil at another temperature at 1 atm pressure other than 100 celsius?

Why can't water just boil at any temperature at whim?
What about God? Is God bound to his character or can he act in an ungodly fashion?
If everything only acts as is within it's character then where is the free will? Free Will suggest to me total freedom, even freedom from innate character. If God could only do what God is bound to do (by virtue of being god), then even God is not free.

However try telling that to the man running to catch a bus. He believes that with enough effort of will he can push himself to reach the bus before it leaves. He doesn't have time for theories about determinism and it wasn't meant to be.
Re: Pantheism by Nobody: 3:22pm On Jun 29, 2017
PastorAIO:


Time doesn't stand still. By it's definition Time is the background against which change/movement occurs.

I'm saying that Time could be invented in our minds. In which case the sense of events passing is also an illusion.

Seeing into the future would also be a part of the illusion. Things coming to pass would be a part of the illusion. Things seeming to have passed are also a part of the illusion. There is no past present or future outside of the mind.

So what are we studying? Illusion? Well, why not? This illusion called existence can be observed to follow certain patterns. So it is not just an haphazard arbitrary illusion. there is a structure to it. That structure can still be studied so we come to a better understanding of this illusion we live in.

Much to ponder in your post, I would say that time is rhythmic and we all interpret universal rhythms in our own way and our own time, we tend to see only one section of our environment through the narrow slit of our senses, I would go further to say that real space and time exists outside of individual awareness.

I would agree insofar as you say that humans invented the units of measurement of time (if that was what you meant) Einstein demonstrated that time has no absolute meaning and that it is also affected by gravity, for instance when you travel very fast, time slows down, those left behind age slightly faster, but even those not travelling are not standing still, we are moving through space at an already alarming rate, in other words, everything is relative and it is on this basis that time and space are inextricable. You cannot speak of one without the other.

The paradox arises from the fact that space seems to be presented to us in one piece, whereas time is presented incrementally. The future seems hidden, the past seems shrouded, visible only through memory and technology only the present seems to be revealed directly.

I don't quite agree that the sense of passing events are an illusion, I give the analogy of three persons riding on a train, one person sits in first class carriage in the front of the train with his blinds pulled halfway down, he sees only half of the world hurtling by, the second fellow sits in cattle class at the back of the train without blinds and sees the world going by, his view is impeded only by the size of his window, the third man sits on top of the train hitching a free ride, he has a clear unimpeded three directional view of the world including much further down the track, I believe it is a question of perspective.

The Hindu philosophy of an ever-moving present appeals to me, quantum mechanics even now considers the possibility of time travelling in the opposite direction. Everything else in the universe appears non-directional, why should time should be the sole exception? It seems to me that space-time is continuum, and it is impossible to draw distinctions between past and present and perhaps even the future. Therefore time should no longer be seen as the old, one dimensional unit of classical physics, but as a combination of space-time, in other words, the four dimensional continuum.

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Re: Pantheism by Nobody: 3:47pm On Jun 29, 2017
AnonyNymous:

No problem man but for now I have enough 'food' to last me quite a while!
Thanks bro. smiley
Re: Pantheism by Nobody: 4:13pm On Jun 29, 2017
PastorAIO:


That's okay.

There are different types of Theories. Some theories of Agency. Some Theories of Mechanisms.

A difference between theories of Agency and Mechanism is the kind of questions asked. Theories of Agency address the question of 'Who did it' or 'what did it'. Theories of Mechanism address the question of 'How is it done' without bothering with the agent.

For example. Gold Mining. We can ask who the miner is. we can argue over who the miner is. Or again, we can ask how the hill is mined regardless of who is doing the mining.

Modern Science addresses the issue of Mechanism. The 'How things happen'.
Religious cults have tried to address both issues. They will claim that 'God' did it. Who won the battle? God did! The thing with theories of Agency is that they are almost unassailable when it comes to big cosmological matters.
However where most religious cults run into trouble is when they attempt to answer the issue of the mechanisms of existence. The 'How' things are done. Time and again they have been proven to be ignorant and pompously deluded when it comes to explaining the mechanisms of life.
If for instance they would just stop at saying 'God created the universe' Full stop. They might get away with a lot more. But instead they attempt to explain how he did it, in how many days, and in what order. This is where they get up ended.
If they had ducked the mechanism question then whatever scientific discovery comes along they can say, ' ah that must be how God did it, maybe'.


What has all this got to do with my own rants?

Well, what I have to say about Temporality vs Eternity has no bearing whatsoever on the mechanism of how Temporal existence proceeds from one non existent moment in time to another non existent moment in time.

So when you ask what conclusions can be reached from the study of illusory time, the answer is no different from what conclusions can be reached by studying the illusion even if you didn't think it was an illusion.

Physics studies Nature as we perceive it. Metaphysics studies beyond physics and so can have no bearing on the nuts and bolts of how nature itself seems to work.

I hope that makes it clearer even if a little bit long winded.
Interesting perspective. Thanks. smiley
Re: Pantheism by Nobody: 1:50pm On Jul 01, 2017
PastorAIO:


So there's a name for it. Multiverse.


Free Will.
Do you have character? Or at the very least would you say you have Characteristics if not character?

Is there anything in this world that doesn't have it's own distinct characteristics?
What about God? Does God have a distinct defining character?
IF so, then can God act outside of Character? Can you act out of character? Can water exhibit behaviours that are not in keeping with it's molecular structure? e.g can Water boil at another temperature at 1 atm pressure other than 100 celsius?

Why can't water just boil at any temperature at whim?
What about God? Is God bound to his character or can he act in an ungodly fashion?
If everything only acts as is within it's character then where is the free will? Free Will suggest to me total freedom, even freedom from innate character. If God could only do what God is bound to do (by virtue of being god), then even God is not free.

However try telling that to the man running to catch a bus. He believes that with enough effort of will he can push himself to reach the bus before it leaves. He doesn't have time for theories about determinism and it wasn't meant to be.

No, I don't believe 'God' has a distinct definite character. I also think water can't act 'out of character' because its not conscious, its 'non living'. So back to human free will. It seems like we humans are able to do whatever we like, 'out of character', within the limitations of our physical body. So it does seem like we have free will. . .
Re: Pantheism by PastorAIO: 3:57pm On Jul 04, 2017
AnonyNymous:

No, I don't believe 'God' has a distinct definite character. I also think water can't act 'out of character' because its not conscious, its 'non living'. So back to human free will. It seems like we humans are able to do whatever we like, 'out of character', within the limitations of our physical body. So it does seem like we have free will. . .


Ques: What is something that has no characteristics?

Ans: Nothing

If God doesn't have a character then God doesn't exist.
Re: Pantheism by Nobody: 4:06pm On Jul 04, 2017
PastorAIO:



Ques: What is something that has no characteristics?

Ans: Nothing

If God doesn't have a character then God doesn't exist.
Not that God doesn't have a character, God doesn't have a definite character. It can change.

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