ikupakuti:


#MUSA is ill-tempered & that is obvious from his stories in the QURAN, displaying his natural tendecies is not an issue, thats why God never knocked him or discuss his short-comings in a negative light in the QURAN coz he‘s human.

ikupakuti:

#Nobody potrayed him a rogue, MUSA is temperamental & its all over the QURAN, his stories reaks of impatience, so saying he hit an angel is not ridiculous.

# Musa was one of those prophets appointed as messenger at the age of 40 according to several traditions. Naturally, at 40, full bodily and mentally maturity is expected. Spiritual development in addition to a prophet. If that age, Musa is still ill-tempered and impatience, then what's the essence of his spiritual development?

Interestingly, you believed him to be a masoom (someone being guided in his A-Z activities, yet you labeled him with bad akhlaq. Observe, stories in the Qur'an are narrations not every single minute details.

1. Case of Khidr: Imagine Khidr murdered an innocent boy in front of Musa whose divine Torah says killing without justification is a great sin. Despite sabr he was told to exercise beforehand, do you expect him not to react? He might have been told to exercise patience but the nature of what to see was never told. Reaction of Musa towards every single "crime" committed by Khidr was a reflection of his belief in the divine laws given to him.

2. Case of his Shi'a vs his aduww (enemy) fighting. Kindly read Qur'an with open heart, and may Allah give us the taofeek to understand better.

Interestingly, the enemy had overpowered Musa's Shi'a. Why do you think Qur'an used the word "Shi'a and aduww of Musa? That is a very important detail. The presence of Musa to separate and rescue his Shi'a from being hurt or killed, in the eyes of his aduww is obviously zulm against him. In the process, Musa hit the man and he died. No sin was ever recorded for him because his intentions was pure.


3. Case of Harun: I've said a lot already on this. More in response below.

ikupakuti:

# If he wasnt consumed by rage & wasnt thinking straight why did he have to attack HARUN & not SAMRYY or the people who apostated ?

# Nabi Musa had nothing to do with Samry or his strayed people immediately he returned. His brother, Harun was his first responsibility. Why? Harun was given the responsibility of looking over (Khalifah) the qawm of Musa. Musa himself gave him this responsibility. Qur'an says:

"...take my place (ukhlufni) among my people, and act well and do not follow the way of the mischief makers" A'raf:142

ikupakuti:

What did HARUN later told him that made him leave him that he (MUSA) isnt aware of before ?

ikupakuti:

Now tell me the sense/rationale in attacking HARUN when he knew what happened already before coming back ? What did he achieve with that act ? what did that change ? Wait if the isrealites had revolted against MUSA himself & dared him what could he have done that he expected of HARUN ?

# According to the Qur'an Musa was informed that Samriy has led his people astray. The nature of their straying, and impact of his Khalifah, he knew nothing.

# Even if Musa was informed of their straying (in polytheism), it is expected of him to be annoyed the more. Why? Qur'an says he had already warned them against polytheism (A'raf: 138-140)

# When Musa held his brother by his beard and head, this was his statement to him:

(Musa) said: O Harun! What prevented you, when you saw them going astray.
So that you did not follow me (i.e my instructions)? Did you then disobeyed my order?

# What was Harun's response? Qur'an says:

Son of my mother! Surely the people reckoned me weak and had well-nigh slain me.... A'raf:150

This is what made Musa back off. Harun resisted the people from polytheism to the extent he nearly got killed.

# This is Quran at its best in Qasas, and Like I said, do you expect Musa to hug his brother or calm down? According to Qur'an, despite the fact that Allah knew E'esa did not asked his people to worship him, E'esa will still be question before his Lord.

ikupakuti:

#NABI YA‘QUB: It only shows that hes human & thats what we talking about here, isnt it ? Or did he doubted God ? Or can you tell me the reason why he couldnt relax other than his longing for YUSUF ?

# It only shows he's human? Subhan'allah. The fact that he was a prophet and messenger made him not "only human". Allah informed and assured him yet he continue crying! Why? Our tafsir especially based on the responds of Imam Jafar sadiq when asked this same question, said:

Part of the responsibility given to Yaqub was to look after, and train a prophet (Yusuf) apart from being his son. He was extremely grieved and disappointed in himself for failing in this task.

Like I said earlier Prophets/Messengers do not take responsibilities given to them lightly. Allah do not joke with them whenever He test them. It is usually of the utmost.

ikupakuti:

#NABI (saw)‘s matter that you inserted here is entirely different. Its a matter of SHUKR Q14:7 he decleared that by himself.

# It is an analogy and unfortunately you did not get it. Your point was why did Musa reacted that way towards his brother after being informed already of the situation of his people.

In retrospect, Nabi Muhammad was already been informed of this special mercy yet he intensified his worship after it. Obviously, he's making shukr before.

The idea especially for the friends of God is if Allah informed them of something, they become more reactive.

ikupakuti:

#IF MUSA couldnt hug HARUN for a job welldone he could as well ask him howfar in a civil manner without being violent. Someone like NABI ISA or NABI IBRAHIM would never have used such approach.

# My brother not in the case of shirk. It is the epitome, the zenith of all sins. See Nabi Ibrahim how he destroyed all those idols being worshipped by his people! See how our Nabi too smashed all the idols in Kaaba at the conquest of Makkah. If anyone dare stand in front of them, they will destroy him.

The point still remain Musa never hit his brother, as he was alleged to have hited fiercely an angel sent to him

ikupakuti:

#Every NABI is a MUKHLAS including HARUN that he wanted to panel beat

# By Mukhlis, what do you understand? And remember the maqam of Musa is far higher than Harun. Musa would rather die than seeing idolatry under his watch.

LadunaI:
@albaqir and @ikupakuti am enjoying you people discussion so to say. Not only learning yet another pith in prophet Musa(as) anecdote, but also in the way of constructive, inductive and deductive analogy.

This is interesting let it keep rolling.

# Obviously we can learn a lot from each other by having a civil (polite) discussion. If we can share our difference of opinions and submit our argument for and against in the way Quran mentioned, "with wisdom, good manner, sound argument", obviously the Islamic environment will be more informed.

# Many thanks.

LadunaI:


What is this "ASAWO" again? You and your conc Yoruba vocab, though I got your point.

Perhaps many DIVINE MERCY of ALLAH coloured in disguise would have been revealed to us had been Prophet Musa(as) exercise patient, and not been presumptuous in the presence of his "teacher".

thats just my opinion actually. i understand it multiply recorded that he(as) popped Angel's eye. But that story also resembles christians and Jewish versions as well. That makes me suspicious of it. However, we do know nabi Musa got anger problem so it shouldnt be far fetched

@albaqir

Lols this is one of the most ridiculous defense ever.

#You mean spiritual developement & mental maturity did absorbed MUSA‘S impatience right? Was the NABI (saw) wrong on his remark on MUSA in respect to his relations with KHIDR ?

#‘ISMA is not being guided a-z, it means immunity from prosecution under the law he brougth, it cannot obliterate ones humanity or freewill or are you saying NABI YUNUS was wrongly guided by GOD in respect to the event which resulted to his ordeal ? Or was it the same ‘A-Z guidance‘ NABI SULAIMAN, DAUD, YUNUS, IBRAHIM et al seeking forgiveness & repenting from ? Q38:35 & 24, 21:87, 14:41, 26:82,

#If his reaction to KHIDR‘S acts were reflections of his belief in divine laws & not out of his impatience then the man-slaughter he committed in egypt was a reflection of what ? Since he‘s yet to be ordained then.

#I know the words SHI‘A & ADUWW used would be “VERY IMPORTANT“ (got the message)

#hmmm No sin was recorded. Maybe MUSA believed otherwise for he said “I HAVE WRONGED MY SELF, SO, FORGIVE ME & HE (GOD) FORGAVE HIM“ even though MUSA had earlier attributed the “SIN“ to the devil but later he was the 1 looking for forgiveness Or why did you think MUSA ran away the first time his staff turnd to snake on mount sinai ? For a shepherd who is used to various attacks from fiercer animals? Q27:10-11

#He has nothing to do with SAMRYY but later placed a curse on him right ? Also has nothing to do with the people that erred but has everything to do with a MASOOM guided by GOD from a -z right ? I like your defense.

Just 2 Qs

1- What would MUSA have done (that HARUN didnt) should he be the one rebelled against & dared ?

2- Why hook a fellow NABI before questioning him, why attack someone unjustly ?

Here we are trying to find excuse for MUSA other than impatience.

#MUSA would rather die you say ? For what ? Is their obedience a condition for his own salvation as an individual ? Can you show me a NABI who destroyed himself due to the KUFR of his people?

ikupakuti:


Lols this is one of the most ridiculous defense ever.

# In your own opinion.

ikupakuti:

#You mean spiritual developement & mental maturity did absorbed MUSA‘S impatience right? Was the NABI (saw) wrong on his remark on MUSA in respect to his relations with KHIDR ?

#‘ISMA is not being guided a-z, it means immunity from prosecution under the law he brougth, it cannot obliterate ones humanity or freewill or are you saying NABI YUNUS was wrongly guided by GOD in respect to the event which resulted to his ordeal ? Or was it the same ‘A-Z guidance‘ NABI SULAIMAN, DAUD, YUNUS, IBRAHIM et al seeking forgiveness & repenting from ? Q38:35 & 24, 21:87, 14:41, 26:82,

# What is your definition of "seeking forgiveness of the Prophet of God"? Does seeking of their forgiveness portrayed them as "sinners"? This is another subject entirely.

Nabi Muhammad was said to always recite istighfar more than 70X daily. What were his sins? Has Allah not forgave his pasts, present and future sins (according to Sunni Tafasir)?

According to our ahadith, tawbah (repentance, returning) is one of the highest station before Allah. The more you do Tawbah (returning to Allah), the more you get closer to Him. Prophets never get satisfied. Istighfar is a step towards Tawbah.

# I don't wish to derail this further. However here's Nabi view on being masoom:

1. Imam an-Nasai documents:

It was narrated from Abu Saeed that the Messenger of
Allah said:

"Allah never sends a prophet or appoints a Khalifah but he has two groups of advisers: A group that tells him to do good and a group that tells him to do evil and urges him to do it. And the one who is truly protected (masoom - Arabic word used in the text) is the one who is protected by Allah, the Mighty and Sublime."

Grade : Sahih (Darussalam)

Reference : Sunan an-Nasa'i 4202
In-book reference : Book 39, Hadith 54
English translation : Vol. 5, Book 39, Hadith 4207
www.sunnah.com/nasai/39

2. There is a popular Sunni hadith which says if you turn to God for 40days, He will cease your eyes, hands, tongue etc that nothing but goodness will flow out of it.


# Isma (infallibility) does not cut off one's freewill (emotion, desires etc) and aql (intellect), rather you have grown spiritually to surpress it.

ikupakuti:

#If his reaction to KHIDR‘S acts were reflections of his belief in divine laws & not out of his impatience

Here's the law given to Musa pertaining to Killing

Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 32:

For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

# Nabi Musa was only told to be patient. The gravity of what to see was never told. In line with the law and exceptions given for killing a soul, he MUST react.

ikupakuti:

then the man-slaughter he committed in egypt was a reflection of what ? Since he‘s yet to be ordained then.

#I know the words SHI‘A & ADUWW used would be “VERY IMPORTANT“ (got the message)

#hmmm No sin was recorded. Maybe MUSA believed otherwise for he said “I HAVE WRONGED MY SELF, SO, FORGIVE ME & HE (GOD) FORGAVE HIM“

# Obviously we are seriously derailing the main subject. You are trying to make different analogies/scenerio into one. To save sticking to the main point, here's both Shi'a and Sunni presentations to the issue:

1. Shia: https://www.al-islam.org/ismat-infallibiity-of-prophets-in-the-quran-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/case-prophet-musa

2. Sunni: www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2213

ikupakuti:

#He has nothing to do with SAMRYY but later placed a curse on him right ? Also has nothing to do with the people that erred but has everything to do with a MASOOM guided by GOD from a -z right ? I like your defense.

# Don't quote me out of context, man. My statement is clear enough when I said, "Nabi Musa had nothing to do with Samry or his strayed people immediately he returned. His brother, Harun was his first responsibility.

ikupakuti:


2- Why hook a fellow NABI before questioning him, why attack someone unjustly ?

Here we are trying to find excuse for MUSA other than impatience.

# Nabi Musa held his brother by the beard and head, then ask him question. Is that an attack, Mr ikupakuti?

# If Nabi Musa was "impatient" in the manner you are talking about, his "attack" would be punching his brother without asking him anything. Here's the best scenario (the main topic):


Narrated Abu Huraira:
The angel of death was sent to Moses and when he
went to him , Moses slapped him severely, spoiling
one of his eyes.

ikupakuti:

#MUSA would rather die you say ? For what ? Is their obedience a condition for his own salvation as an individual ? Can you show me a NABI who destroyed himself due to the KUFR of his people?

# "Would rather die" is any expression to emphasis would have done far better and prevented the situation. It never meant "kill or destroyed himself" as you have curry-flavored it. Even someone with all knew suicide is a sin not to mention a prophet.

# There's this thirst of "I can do better" or "should have done better" in the heart and action of Prophets. Even when Allah caution of Nabi of his struggle day and night over the salvation of his people, Nabi never relaxed. Every Prophet will be raised on Qiyamat with their Qawm/Ummah. "Allah knows I have tried" is not in their dictionary. That's why we read the story of Ibrahim who was commanded to build a house of worship, he did it with ikhlas and the utmost of his energy inline with detailed given to him by his Lord. Yet, he prayed fervently for the acceptance of the work.

^^^
Ok agreed.

#SUNNI‘S account on what transpired between MUSA & AZARA‘IL was forged while SHI‘A‘S version is genuine. or isnt that the basis of the thread in the first place ?

AlBaqir:
From Sunni Narration

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The angel of death was sent to Moses and when he went to him, Moses slapped him severely, spoiling one of his eyes.

The angel went back to his Lord, and said, “You sent me to a slave who does not want to die.” Allah restored his eye and said, “Go back and tell him (i.e. Moses) to place his hand over the back of an ox, for he will be allowed to live for a number of years equal to the number of hairs coming
under his hand.” (So the angel came to him and told him the same). Then Moses asked, “O my Lord! What will be then?” He said, “Death will be then.” He said, “(Let it be) now.” He asked Allah that He bring him near the Sacred Land at a distance of a stone’s throw. Allah’s Messenger
( s ) said, “Were I there I would show you the grave of Moses by the way near the red sand hill.”


Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 1339
In-book reference: Book 23, Hadith 95
USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 2, Book
23, Hadith 423
(deprecated numbering scheme)
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/60/80

1.Prophet musa didnt know it was an angel and the angel appeared in human form...Considering is temperament and it is only in human nature to defend yourself.
e.g -Musa throwing the tablet in which is thier is guidance and light, i think you should ponder about this also
- Musa dragging the beard of his brother (prophet)
- Musa punching and killing an Israelite who was arguing with an Egyptian, punching someone without hearing both side of the story and
later finding out that the egyptian is an argumentative person do prophet punch people?

Look closely, and you will find that every time Musa’s “anger subsided” he brings forth the most beautiful of prayers. After killing them Egyptian: “’My Lord, indeed I’ve wronged myself, so forgive me,’ and He forgave him. Indeed, He is the Forgiving, the Merciful. ‘My Lord, for the favor You bestowed upon me, I will never be an assistant to wrong doers’” (28:15-16 al-Qasas). After throwing the tablets and scolding his brother the Prophet Harun 'alayhi'l-salām (peace be upon him): “My Lord, forgive me and my brother and admit us into Your mercy, for You are the most merciful of the merciful.” (7:151 al-Araf).

Even before receiving their revelation, prophets are exemplars of upright character. So the doubter who wishes to shed doubt on Sahih al-Bukhari should actually be questioning the Quran first.

2. Prophet Musa (‘alayhi as-salaam) wasn't initially given the choice between life and death as reported by aisha radiallahu anna
Hence Given that the angel of death initially approached Musa (‘alayhi as-salaam) and didn't offer him this choice, it becomes clear to us that Musa (‘alayhi as-salaam) wasn't fighting the Qadr of Allah here. As a matter of fact, when the angel of death later came back to Musa (‘alayhi as-salaam) with the alternative, Musa (‘alayhi as-salaam) cooperated.

ikupakuti:
^^^
Ok agreed.

#SUNNI‘S account on what transpired between MUSA & AZARA‘IL was forged while SHI‘A‘S version is genuine. or isnt that the basis of the thread in the first place ?

# That is left for the readers to conclude whatever in their heart. The two ahadith are before them. Those (including your eminent) who tried to defend the Sunni hadith have done so at different angles, and I have also present my objections to your presentation.


# I am never a believer of any hadith books being perfect nor accept hook , line and sinker whatever anybody bring to defend whatever. Everything is weighed carefully in accordance with general foundation/information of the Qur'an and alternative hadith (if any).

..........
Side Talk

# The way and manner in which Anbiya (esp. Musa) were presented in many ahadith and tafasir make one wonder if there is any nobility left for them.

# This same Nabi Musa in same sahih Bukhari and Muslim was said to be bathing naked until the mountain, on whose he placed his clothes, started running away, and nakedly Musa was alleged to be running after it till the Israelites saw him that he was truly circumcised (as against their initial thought).

# Nabi Sulayman was said to have had sex with between 80 - 120 women in a night, and he did not say "in sha Allah", therefore none of the alleged sex led to child except one with deformity or so.

# Our Nabi is also not left out. He used to allegedly had sex day and night with his 9 - 11 wives within 1 hour. At another time possessed by magic for six month to the extent that he was hallucinating.

# I don't take shi.t in the name of "sahih".

Thanks for your time.

Wa salam alaykum.

^^^

Fair enough.

#I, personally do not subscribe to the sahihism attached to the “SAHIHS“ & you‘ll notice I havent quoted a single hadith throughout this discourse.

My disprove is to your believe that such an act doesnt fit MUSA‘s character which I dont agree to, not that I approve or disapprove of the matn of that hadith. I only cited Quranic references that show that the character attributed to him might not be ridiculous as you think. Slm

Ok