We have read so much about FAITH from those who have been labelled '''members of the word of faith movement'' for so long.

Perhaps to set the record straight,'' the Non-WOF faithfuls'' should please do an expose on the true FAITH', with scriptural references.

We'll like to know:

*what FAITH is

*Its significance now

*Applications (with precise examples, in the bible days and now)

*What can't Faith achieve, if any?


Thank you

i'm really eager to see what "they" would put up- atheists sorry, aletheia and the rest. i'm grinning in anticipation.

@fyneguy,

Thank you for now setting up the thread. In due course, I'd post a few things about faith, but let me quickly answer this part of your question:

fyneguy:

*What can't Faith achieve, if any?

Something that faith cannot achieve: it cannot make you or any other Christian become a deity.

The holy ghost resides in me, i have the life of christ, am born of God, i do what natural men(non believers) cant do. Am i just a man? certainly another class of man.

nuella2:

Am i just a man? certainly another class of man.

^^ does that make you a deity?

Please, please and please, I would like a direct answer to that pivotal question. That is what is at the heart of WOF teachings today, no gainsaying it. With all the talk about 'i am god', why do WOF proponents stutter and shy away from giving a direct answer to that simple question?

When one goes through the assertions of WOF teachers, it does not take much digging to find that they have made reference to themselves as "divinity" - that there is no difference between them and divinity, or that they cannot be human.

Now when several folks begin to drink into that kind of teaching, what we 'non-WOFs' want to know is a direct answer to the simple question: are you a deity just as God is Deity? Please don't gamble that question away, because it is precisely what WOF teachers have acclaimed in their doctrines (eg., Kenneth Copeland, Paul Crouch, Creflo Dollar, Paula White, etc). These folks have not minced words when declaring these things. So why are you guys shying away from giving a simple answer for what you actually are declaring of yourselves?

Are you a deity just as God is Deity?

When you answer that question in all honesty, we discuss more. All bragado claims about being this and that and evading that question just amount to raising airy speech. Please guys, do us the fav of dealing directly with that simple enquiry. Thanks.

what do you mean by Deity like God. God is almighty, not even Jesus is God almighty, he is head of the Godhead. So not deity in that sense. What i mean in am not natural cos God gave birth to me, my spirit have been recreated in his likeness. No human is in the class of God to receive worship and adoration as God. But we carry the supernational and will become immortal when christ comes. So am not diety as God almighty who created me. But  am born of the supernatural(God) cos the greater one is in me so am not natural like every other man.

viaro:

@fyneguy,

Thank you for now setting up the thread. In due course, I'd post a few things about faith, but let me quickly answer this part of your question:

Something that faith cannot achieve: it cannot make you or any other Christian become a deity.

Please follow the rules set by fyneguy. post your response to the issues he raised.

fyneguy:

We have read so much about FAITH from those who have been labelled '''members of the word of faith movement'' for so long.

Perhaps to set the record straight,'' the Non-WOF faithfuls'' should please do an expose on the true FAITH', with scriptural references.

We'll like to know:

*what FAITH is

*Its significance now

*Applications (with precise examples, in the bible days and now)

*What can't Faith achieve, if any?


Thank you

Faith is believing and trusting in something based on what God has said about that thing.
Then, that means,If God did not say something about an issue, we can't believe in it.
It is a firm persuasion and expectation that God will perform all he has promised us in Christ.

The significance of faith now is to see us through life as we await the end of faith; which is the return of Christ.

As regards application, I don't think faith is a tool that can be applied.
Faith is the sum total of our belief system. It is the content of what God has declared that makes up our faith.

It is faith that makes us who we are; without faith we aren't believers(people who believe in God).
So, I guess our faith marks us out as children of God; believers in God and what he has declared and done and will do.

Heb 11:6
(6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So, the only "application" of faith as it would seem is to please God.

As regards what faith can't achieve,. . . . . . .well, there are so many things faith can't achieve, but I'll summarise them as anything God did not state in his will or anything that isn't according to God's will and ultimate purpose.

nuella2:

The holy ghost resides in me, i have the life of christ, am born of God, i do what natural men(non believers) cant do. Am i just a man? certainly another class of man.

Can you give an example of what you can do that non believers cannot do?

ukotmi:

Please follow the rules set by fyneguy. post your response to the issues he raised.

Did fyneguy not raise an issue that I responded to?

viaro:

@fyneguy,

Thank you for now setting up the thread. In due course, I'd post a few things about faith, but let me quickly answer this part of your question:

Something that faith cannot achieve: it cannot make you or any other Christian become a deity.

Bros,

Define Deity and I'll tell you if I am or not (Remember semantics has nothing on me )

ttalks:

Faith is believing and trusting in something based on what God has said about that thing.
Then, that means,If God did not say something about an issue, we can't believe in it.
It is a firm persuasion and expectation that God will perform all he has promised us in Christ.

Faith is believing and trusting in something?  Please give biblical reference to back up that claim.


Posted by: ttalks

As regards application, I don't think faith is a tool that can be applied.
Faith is the sum total of our belief system. It is the content of what God has declared that makes up our faith.[

Heb 11:6
(6)  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So, the only "application" of faith as it would seem is to please God

Faith can not be applied?  When Jesus said if you had faith as small as a mustard seed and say to the mountain to________ that's not an application?

When the the woman with the issue of blood used her faith to pull power out of Jesus, that's no application abi?

Have you read this line in the bible-  "Your faith has made you whole'' ? Was it not because someone applied faith ?

Ok bros, go back to the scriptures and study more on Faith. thank you

ttalks:

Can you give an example of what you can do that non believers cannot do?

Did you really ask that? Thank God for this thread. It has exposed why some people say what they say.

fyneguy:

Define Deity and I'll tell you if I am or not (Remember semantics has nothing on me )

I'm not using semantics - I already noted what I mean by deity (even divinity). Choose your poison and answer the question, if you may.

viaro:

I'm not using semantics - I already noted what I mean by deity (even divinity). Choose your poison and answer the question, if you may.

Bros,

Define Deity/Divinity and I'll tell you if I am ''your definition''

Viaro,

By the way, you are almost derailing this thread. We can talk deity-ish on another thread.

Please answer the questions I posed, seriatim.

Thanks for your co-operation

fyneguy:

Viaro,

By the way, you are almost derailing this thread. We can talk deity-ish on another thread.

Nope, please don't accuse me. I am not derailing anything. You raised an issue about what faith cannot do - and I answered with one example. How is that a derailment?

Second, you opined that you wanted to open this thread for "non-WOF believers", and I urged you to do so from the other thread. Since I am one of the 'non-WOF believers', that is why I came here to discuss what you felt you could not discuss in that thread. If you want me to leave so you can turn this into another WOF thread, let me know and I shall oblige presently.

Please answer the questions I posed, seriatim.

Thanks for your co-operation

I will do so again, even though I already gave an answer to your question. When you read my definition, please don't accuse me of derailing anything, or better still explain how I was doing so - and I shall refrain or adjust. The thread was not about 'Faith' for believers, but specifically for "non-WOF believers" - am I missing something?


Now again to answer your question:

fyneguy:

Define Deity/Divinity and I'll tell you if I am ''your definition''

1. Deity/Divinity: the quality possessed by God alone in His transcendence and preternaturality that distinguishes Him from every other thing in existence.

That will do for now and encapsulates what I have been trying to point out. Will expatiate if need be.

fyneguy:

Faith is believing and trusting in something?  Please give biblical reference to back up that claim.

Mister, I said faith is believing and trusting in something based on what God has said about that thing; not the shortened version you rendered above.
Go through the whole of Hebrews 11 to see the picture.

Faith can not be applied?  When Jesus said if you had faith as small as a mustard seed and say to the mountain to________ that's not an application?

When the the woman with the issue of blood used her faith to pull power out of Jesus, that's no application abi?

Have you read this line in the bible-  "Your faith has made you whole'' ? Was it not because someone applied faith ?

Ok bros, go back to the scriptures and study more on Faith. thank you

I don't call the stuff you highlighted above "applications" of faith.

Rather, I call them acts of or acts based on faith.
Do you know what acting based on faith means?
It is acting based on what the faith constitution(the word of God) says.

Let me give an example:

When the word of God says: love your neighbours/enemies; and then it is evident in your actions that you love your enemies /neighbours,
then, you are acting on faith or based on faith. This is because if the word of God did not instruct such, you might not have shown such action.
You did that or acted so based on what the word of God required of you.

That, is acting based on faith.

It is not the magical scenario which you guys believe in such as "calling something into existence out of nothing" or "faithing something into existence"  

fyneguy:

Did you really ask that? Thank God for this thread. It has exposed why some people say what they say.

There's no need for all the mystery. If you could help nuella2 and give an example of what you can do that non believers can't do, that would help.
Let's see what example you can give.

And please do not give examples like being able to commune with God or stuff like that cos that does not count because non believers do not count it as anything.

What should count is something that you can do that they would have loved to do but can't because of their unbelieving statuses.
Afterall, that's what all the gibberish you guys spew everyday implies.

ttalks:

Mister, I said faith is believing and trusting in something based on what God has said about that thing; not the shortened version you rendered above.
Go through the whole of Hebrews 11 to see the picture.

I don't call the stuff you highlighted above "applications" of faith.

Rather, I call them acts of or acts based on faith.
Do you know what acting based on faith means?
It is acting based on what the faith constitution(the word of God) says.

Let me give an example:

When the word of God says: love your neighbours/enemies; and then it is evident in your actions that you love your enemies /neighbours,
then, you are acting on faith or based on faith. This is because if the word of God did not instruct such, you might not have shown such action.
You did that or acted so based on what the word of God required of you.

That, is acting based on faith.

It is not the magical scenario which you guys believe in such as "calling something into existence out of nothing" or "faithing something into existence"  

They are not Faith applications but acting on Faith based on what God instructed? OK!

What did God say that the woman with the issue of blood acted on that pulled power out of Jesus and healed the woman?

What did Jesus want us to act on when he said if we had Faith as little as the mustard seed, the mountain shall respond?

Now again to answer your question:
1. Deity/Divinity: the[b] quality possessed by God alone[/b] in His transcendence and preternaturality (Semantics!)that distinguishes Him from every other thing in existence.

That will do for now and encapsulates what I have been trying to point out. Will expatiate if need be.
[quote][/quote]

What is the quality possessed by God alone in His (those semantics above ) . Be specific sir

fyneguy:

What is the quality possessed by God alone in His (those semantics above ) . Be specific sir

The quality is Deity/Divinity.

You asked me to define 'Deity/Divinity' - and my definition states that:

~ 'Deity/Divinity' is the quality which God alone possesses

~ because God alone possesses the quality of (Deity/Divinity)

~ it (that quality) sets Him apart in transcendence and preternaturality

~ and that ^^ distinguishes Him from every other thing in existence.

That's breaking it down for you. Please come back and ask viaro to define every word I've typed in this reply (by the time you read to the end, there would be about 120 words by individual count).


You guys are just here to play games, no? You don't know what sets God apart from all other things in existence, no? Please just amuse me.

"faith:

confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, an idea, or a thing.
belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
loyalty or allegiance to a person or thing; esp. fidelity to a promise.
the theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will."

I'm a non believer by the way.

viaro:

The quality is Deity/Divinity.

You asked me to define 'Deity/Divinity' - and my definition states that:

     ~  'Deity/Divinity' is the quality which God alone possesses

     ~  because God alone possesses the quality of (Deity/Divinity)

     ~  it (that quality) sets Him apart in transcendence and preternaturality

     ~  and that ^^ distinguishes Him from every other thing in existence.

That's breaking it down for you. Please come back and ask viaro to define every word I've typed in this reply (by the time you read to the end, there would be about 120 words by individual count).


You guys are just here to play games, no?  You don't know what sets God apart from all other things in existence, no? Please just amuse me.

Heheheheheehe. You are unable to define what the quality is.

All you have said is that ''Only God has this quality called Deity''

That did not define Deity!  Tell us what Deity/Divinity is all about! You have only convinced yourself that only HE has this quality, which you dont even understand or are unable to define.

Let me help you: Is it His Immortality that makes him a Deity?  Is it the fact that He is the Alpha and Omega? Is it the fact that only Him is worship-worthy? Think about these things

I rest my case

Mikaela:

"faith:

confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, an idea, or a thing.
belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
loyalty or allegiance to a person or thing; esp. fidelity to a promise.
the theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will."

I'm a non believer by the way.

I hope you did not misconstrue ''Non-wof believers'' to mean unbelievers (non-christians)?

Anyway, This is thread is for believers. Thank you

fyneguy:

I hope you did not misconstrue ''Non-wof believers'' to mean unbelievers (non-christians)?

Anyway, This is thread is for believers. Thank you

I didn't misunderstand anything. And I wasn't rude either. I just gave my stake. WTF?

fyneguy:


Heheheheheehe. You are unable to define what the quality is.

I did - you wanted to console yourself by deliberately missing it.
You could try defining it for yourself if you're not satisfied with mine.

All you have said is that ''Only God has this quality called Deity''

I'm sure I said much more than that and also broke it down for you, no?

That did not define Deity!

That's okay; so please help me define Deity.
When you're done, please also help me define Divinity.

Tell us what Deity/Divinity is all about!

When you define both Deity and Divinity, I shall then tell you what either is all about.

You have only convinced yourself that only HE has this quality, which you dont even understand or are unable to define.

If you're convinced that others have this quality, please show us. If you cannot show, you will be such a laugh.

Let me help you: Is it His Immortality that makes him a Deity?  Is it the fact that He is the Alpha and Omega? Is it the fact that only Him is worship-worthy? Think about these things

Thanks for the 'help', but did you never read of TRANSCENDENCE and PRETERNATURALITY in what I said?

It seems you were here to play games and be dodgy from the onset; which is no wonder, since it was set up for "non-WOF" believers.  Since WOF teachers are claiming divinity for themselves, you only managed thus far to spin and twist and say nothing at all on these things, no?

Let me help you: the WOF doctrine of "i-am-God" is a heresy. Period. You can define and undefine that whichever way you choose and run to another thread, it matters little from what we already know about the WOF movement.

lol


Viaro,

I can see you like wahala so much.

I told you those words are semantics and asked for further explanations, if any. You were waiting for me to play your role for you.

Anyway, Deity/divinity is what makes God, God, to you. Ok!

Having His divine nature and being expressions of His glory is what makes us Gods on earth.


I rest my case.

fyneguy:

They are not Faith applications but acting on Faith based on what God instructed? OK!

What did God say that the woman with the issue of blood acted on that pulled power out of Jesus and healed the woman?

Well, I believe you should know that the people of that time also had the old testament writings(torah). And it definitely contained a lot of
stuff about the messiah(Jesus Christ) which any body could have faith on and act based upon.

eg.

Mal 4:2
(2)  But unto you who revere and worshipfully fear My name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in His wings and His beams, and you shall go forth and gambol like calves [released] from the stall and leap for joy.

Also, belief in the fact that he was the messiah and also the evidence of the miracles he had been performing.

What did Jesus want us to act on when he said if we had Faith as little as the mustard seed, the mountain shall respond?

Simple! The fact which his word proves to us that he is God and will do anything according to his will; that nothing is impossible with him.
The fact that he is able to do all things is to make us act with firmness of trust and belief that he will do concerning our petitions, desires and requests according to his sovereign will, mercy and purpose.

Putting it simply; . . .  the fact that God is God(If you know what that means. . . ).