karo93, you're back. I do hope you are.
So you're not infallible afterall, you know more errors are on you. All you need do is sincerely fish them out and grow.
You need to start seeing God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit. Why because the Bible also calls each God in a way it calls no other. I'll drum it again, the trinity are 3distinct personalities that are one God. I told you of a similar spirit, soul and body that are one person. Do not re-ignore this. Let me post so as not to be accused of length.

The trio are so interchanged seamlessly in Scripture it Will be criminal not to notice. They are all referred to as God, not just the Son or the Spirit but God.
1Timothy 3v16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
This verse refers to Jesus. He is called God manifest in the flesh, the Word made flesh.

Matthew 1v18. Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: when as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Verse 20 resounds that. Jesus is the Son of the Holy Ghost aka Son of God. Obviously, without former indoctrination, a reader of english can see this.
Well then, a popular Acts 5v3,4 says But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Ghost , and to keep back part of the price of the land.verse 4b thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God .
Obviously, you can't lie to a force(active) or power. It's absurd! You can lie to a person, in this case, God the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 10v15,16
Wherefore the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws in their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.
I want to believe that the watchtower Bible renders Lord as Jehovah. Well if they didn't, it was Jehovah the Holy Ghost speaking. "he had said before" in Jeremiah 31v33,34
h'll stop there for now on God the Spirit. I believe in the mouth of two or is it 3 or more witnesses, every word is established.

@image123
1.in 1tim.3.16 due to the last line 'was taken up to heaven' it was talking of Jesus who appeared in human form and was shown right by the holyspirit for he was filled with the holy spirit [matt.12.28]
2.matt.1.18-20 talked of baby BY the power of the holy spirit and not child per se .the holy spirit is the messenger/force of God.
3.in acts.5.3-4 the interchange between God and the holy spirit is done because the holy spirit is just a messenger and just as luke 10.16 says that whoever rejects jesus rejects him that SENT him[because he has no message of his own]in the same vein whoever lies to the holy spirit lies to him that sent him who is God[because he has no message or work of his own]

.e.g if u sent ur messenger to get some info in ur place and d person gives a false info to ur messenger,he lied to u cos ur messenger will relay the lie to u for the info is not his but urs.

4.in heb 10.15,16 the holy spirit is used because God seldom executes any project by himself but sends the Holy spirit so the holy spirit clearly made the covenant with orders from God and not on his own authority.

Finally when thinking of the trinity what is your take on the fact that there are 7 spirits of GOD making them more than just 3,but dont sweat it there is no trinity thereby saving you the headache.

karo93:

In your bid to create a point from thin air you just tried mixing water and oil as one liquid.
Here Jesus TRIED BUT WAS NOT ALLOWED but God did gather and protect them.
now you have a point against yourself!

The words in bold - where did you read them from the Bible? Can you show me any other verses in the Old Testament that showed where Jesus has been trying to do what He said in Matthew 23:37? Don't excuse this, because you may not like what you get.

karo93:

Jesus is to be worshipped because according to john.3.35 the father loves the son and puts everything in his power.
God is to be worshipped because everything in under his power so all those under him must worship him but seeing that the father has given Jesus equal rights then all must worship him too for all are under him too.

Jesus is to be worshipped because He is Deity. There is nothing else that qualifies our worship other than Who He is in Himself. If He was a created Being, then it would be wrong to ascribe worship to Him - because that would be the same as worshipping created beings like the angels. John 3:35 is not the reason why anyone worships Jesus; rather, it is because He Himself is Deity.

@viaro
What's your complaint? you keep complaining that i have not addressed points and yet you have not addressed mine

I have not been complaining, so please kindly stop all the drama you've been waving in our faces and stand up once to be somebody or remain a nobody. I have addressed your problem in post #70 - if you missed ot skipped it, please go back by clicking that link. If you deliberately ignored it, please save your complaints to yourself and do something fresh.

[and u just swept alimat's about the hour under the carpet]

I asked her a question - did she answer? There's nothing wrong with muslims discussing issues around the Deity of Christ; but we have been on Nairaland for a while to know that Muslims have no reference to Jesus Christ in the Biblical sense as to agree any dot with you that anyone should worship Jesus. Go and ask her if she believes in worshipping Jesus Christ and then we can discuss more if you are still wondering.

we wont get anywhere like this i have told you to lay your points as simply as possible and i will answer you[as i just did above] i also gave you a format to narrow our points so we get somewhere but it seems like you are just interested in going round in circles. i dont swing that way

You karo93 are known throughout this thread to never address ANY question. If the way you complained and dismissed my previous reply without discussing anything is what you call "answer", you only confirm you're not seeking a discussion but here to waste your own time.

My point remains in revelation;address it and lets move on or drop yours for me to answer.We should be able to reach a verdict together[everyone who posts on this thread]

Your point does not remain anywhere. Not until you stop pretending you can't find answers in our replies. If all you want to do is this thread is thoroughly mess yourself up, please let me know - I can do that so well for you.

karo93:

Finally when thinking of the trinity what is your take on the fact that there are 7 spirits of GOD making them more than just 3,but dont sweat it there is no trinity thereby saving you the headache.

That question has been discussed in another thread: Seven Spirits of God?. You can start from the beginning or start from this point where I also gave answers. The "seven spirits" does not mean that there are a number of seven different Holy Spirits.

@viaro
matt23.37, how many times have i WANTED to put my arms around all your people as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings BUT YOU WOULD NOT LET ME,

saying that i have not addresses issues is so wrong cos if i ve not what have i been doing since-the present post here is as a result of one of my replies and u r still sayin t, ,now list any point i did not address instead of repeating it over and over again.

and while i have never replied with any attacking tone i would advice you do the same for i don't want us to turn this thread into something else.peace and dont reply this.

My wish is that we all reach a final conclusion on this matter so i wait to answer all problems before going back to laying my points.

Very interesting topic

Hello friends,this topic is very interesting,but i must confess that am being swayed by Ijele's comments,he supported his claims with more clarified bible quotes better than others. karo made some good points but seems to be quitting or running out of ideas. Image and viaro is equally good but their supporting quotation is more deductive and seemed as to be derived than realistic(based on probablity). You guys has made me to stick close to my bible than ever. Am afraid am begining to think there's absolute nothing like Trinity. Can ijele pls speak more.

@la_vivi
I am not quitting and as i said earlier My wish is that we all reach a final conclusion on this matter so i wait to answer all problems before going back to laying my points cos my points were being evaded by covering them with other points.

karo93:

@la_vivi
I am not quitting and as i said earlier My wish is that we all reach a final conclusion on this matter so i wait to answer all problems before going back to laying my points cos my points were being evaded by covering them with other points.

Your points were not being evaded - you have never attended to any points given by others, but just excusing and circling round them.

la_vivi:

Hello friends,this topic is very interesting,but i must confess that am being swayed by Ijele's comments,he supported his claims with more clarified bible quotes better than others. karo made some good points but seems to be quitting or running out of ideas. Image and viaro is equally good but their supporting quotation is more deductive and seemed as to be derived than realistic(based on probablity). You guys has made me to stick close to my bible than ever. Am afraid am begining to think there's absolute nothing like Trinity. Can ijele pls speak more.

Tell me: did you find any words like monotheism, atheism, economics, incarnation or even "Bible" in your copy of the Bible? So, if you don't find such words in the Bible, would you also say that there's absolutely nothing like them? Did you not arrive at such by the same deductive reasoning? Would you say that any conclusions you come to on such terms are realistic if you use deductive reasoning to arrive at them?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with deductive reasoning. The porblem is that the basics that are pointed out is what is constantly being evaded by those arguing against the Deity of Christ. If Christ is not Deity, why acknowledge that He is to be worshipped?

@viaro
Please now!, how many times do you want me to say this -if you know of a point i evaded show me and i will answer what's up with the repetition?

I have answered every point that needs my attention and the page we are on gives all proof so whats up now??
pls point out any i did not see. is that too much to ask?? We want to reach a conclusion so u should be pleased to show me what i did not reply.

I have answered why Christ is worshiped using john 3.35 so what is your problem with it?i repeat
Jesus is to be worshiped because according to john.3.35 the father loves the son and puts everything in his power.
God is to be worshiped because everything in under his power so all those under him must worship him but seeing that the father has given Jesus equal rights then all must worship him too for all are under him too

viaro:


Tell me: did you find any words like monotheism, atheism, economics, incarnation or even "Bible" in your copy of the Bible? So, if you don't find such words in the Bible, would you also say that there's absolutely nothing like them? Did you not arrive at such by the same deductive reasoning? Would you say that any conclusions you come to on such terms are realistic if you use deductive reasoning to arrive at them?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with deductive reasoning. The porblem is that the basics that are pointed out is what is constantly being evaded by those arguing against the Deity of Christ. If Christ is not Deity, why acknowledge that He is to be worshipped?

well you are right, what am saying is there are more clarifed answers than others. Those deductive answers may have some errors either to suite one's interpretation or dogmas. Examples '' my father is greater than me(do we need to apply logic to derive the meaning?) again 'there is one God and mediator than man Jesus. It's simply and clear'. Anyway you are doing a good job.

la_vivi:

well you are right, what am saying is there are more clarifed answers than others. Those deductive answers may have some errors either to suite one's interpretation or dogmas. Examples '' my father is greater than me(do we need to apply logic to derive the meaning?) again 'there is one God and mediator than man Jesus. It's simply and clear'. Anyway you are doing a good job.

True, just as you don't need any logic to understand the plain statements of John 1:1 (the Word was God) and Revelation 19:13 where Jesus' Name is called "the Word of God".

Nor do we need any logic to see plainly that Romans 9:5 specifically refers to Christ as God ("the Christ who is God over all", ESV). Do we need any logic to derive the meaning in that also?

If you want to throw out all forms of reasoning (deductive, logic, etc) then be willing to accept those verses without logic or deductions as well. You cannot argue for logic in some when it suits one side of an argument, and then refuse the same application of logic when it does not suit the argument you like.

@viaro
rom.9.5-, christ came,who is over all, not GOD over all
once again christ is over all because john 3.35-the father loves the son and puts everything in his POWER! hence he is over everything/all.

keep your points coming and by God's grace we all will get somewhere.

karo93:

@viaro
rom.9.5-, christ came,who is over all, not GOD over all

The Bible does not say what you have asserted there in that verse - Romans 9:5 does not say "christ came,who is over all, not GOD over all". Denying what the Bible says is the hallmark of a cultist. I shall only quote the verse Roman 9:5 and leave you to deny it if you want to show yourself to be a cultist camouflaging as a Christian.

[list]'To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.' - [ESV][/list]

[list]'whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen' - [Young's Literal Transl., YLT][/list]

[list]'The forefathers are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Messiah, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen' - [HCSB][/list]

I'm not going to sit here entertaining you denying Scripture and pretending to be seeking any discussion. You already know what you want to believe - so stay on that adventure.

karo93:

@viaro
rom.9.5-, christ came,who is over all, not GOD over all
once again christ is over all because john 3.35-the father loves the son and puts everything in his POWER! hence he is over everything/all.

keep your points coming and by God's grace we all will get somewhere.

thanks karo,for pointing that, i have just finished reading that verse. But one point is still unclear to oppose in john1:1 'de word is God'. But i can put up a defense like; is it because john was reporting his personal opinion or de people who translated de bible from aremenia,hebrew to english? Can we simply base de conclusion of trinity on that alone? lol, i am finding difficult not to believe that jesus is God. How about when christ ask his disciples who he is? They were all wrong or can't explain better except Peter who answer it right,which also didn't say he is God. Whose testimony do we believe, john or jesus? Jesus said ' my father is greater' john said 'word is God,word is/in jesus. Thanks alot friends, I can't believe am studying the bible this deep like theologians. lol

@viaro
You did not get me and i am sorry for not stating it well
i meant that what you chipped in-'GOD' was not there but as you know the versions that put "God over all" were trying to make more sense in the statement cos over all can be overlooked.they wanted readers to understand that jesus has power over all.hence,the use of 'God'.

karo93:

@viaro
You did not get me and i am sorry for not stating it well
i meant that what you chipped in was not there

It does not matter now. To say that it was not there is a denial - and that was why I quoted the verse in whole to show that it is there.

I am sorry, but you penchant to deny what is in front of you is why I no longer wish to take you seriously. No offence, but I have no interest to feed your constant denials.

la_vivi:

lol, i am finding difficult not to believe that jesus is God.

Don't worry - you will find how he will help you begin to easily deny that one as well.

@viaro
It seems like you have a mission to discredit me seeing the way you expanded "my denial" i was not alone to think of that wrongly for la_vivi also saw it as such because most bibles don't have it as such.nice proving urself though and i accept it with my reply above.

I am not here to make only points but to try to make others change theirs so lying against the bible cannot do me any good.

There's a witness party here already. What an adventure. Viaro na wa o, no vex na.
Karo93, no vex us now, quit 'living in denial'.your excuses are boring. Can you imagine your excuse for Matthew 1v18?" It is BABY not child per se". What's that all about. Now you'll come and say you've addressed issues.
1Timothy 3v16 says God was received up into glory. You just said that refers to Jesus, so what's your problem. Your excuses are laughable to me, but they're becoming annoying to others o! Take your time.
I want to ask you, if we follow your reasoning of Jesus/Spirit is messenger therefore God is referred to. The angels are messengers aren't they? Even you'll claim to be a messenger? All the prophets in scriptures are messengers. Why are they not referred to as God like Jesus is referred to and like the Holy Ghost is referred to?
Also, who do you know/think created the world?

@image123
if you want to find faults in my statements at least find real ones
What sense does baby not child make?i said baby BY and not CHILD OF.[meaning it was by the power of the holyspirit] if you dont understand what i post you can ask.

1tim3.16 says and he was taken up to heaven and mind you my version never said God so what is your stress??Wasn't it jesus who was taken up to heaven

you are arguing that jesus and the holy spirit are not messengers yet they did not come on their own authority but were sent by God.Jn 14:31 and Jn 16:13.who do you think a messenger is??

God created the world what is your own opinion

I think y'all have had your full of asking questions so it's time for me to ask.

My questions are numbered,easy to see and difficult to avoid,
1.   Using Jn 14:28
                 …I am going to the father; for he is greater than I.
If Jesus is OF ONE BEING WITH GOD why would he say he is going to the father who is greater than him? no  should be greater than him
2.   Using Jn 14:1
                 …believe in God and believe also in me.
If Jesus is OF ONE BEING WITH GOD why would you need to believe in them separately
3.   Using Mk 10:18
                 Why do you call me good? Jesus asked him. “No one is good except God alone.
If Jesus is OF ONE BEING WITH GOD why is he not goodI don’t think it is possible for some parts of God to be good and others are not.Here jesus draws a thin line btw himself and GOD.
4.   Using Rev 5:7
                 The lamb [Jesus] went and took the scroll from the one who sits on the throne [God].
If Jesus is OF ONE BEING WITH GOD why would he take the scroll from himself?Huh I cant take a scroll from myself.
5.   Using Rev 5;13
           …To him who sits on the throne and to the lamb, be praise and honor, glory and might forever and ever.
If Jesus is OF ONE BEING WITH GOD why would praises be accorded to him and God separately??
If there was a TRINITY why would praises not be accorded to the holy spirit
6.   Using Rev 22:1-2
                 , sparkling like crystal and coming from the throne of God and of the lamb.
If there was a TRINITY why is there no throne for the Holy Spirit
7.   Using Jn 14:31 and Jn 16:13
                 , That I love the father; that is why I do everything he commands me.
                  …He will not speak on his own authority but on what he HEARS.
If Jesus and the Holy Spirit were of one being with God why don’t they speak on their own authority
If the Holy Spirit were of one being with God why does he speak on what he hears and not of what he knows
8.If jesus were God why did he not know the time of the end times??
9.If jesus is God why couldn't he perform miracles on his own??matt 12.28 he needed the holy spirit
10.the whole book of rev makes it clear that there is jesus the son and God the father who are so separate that they have different thrones and one can take a scroll from the other so what is your stress?
11.who was jesus always praying to??

i ll be back wen u address every one of my points to start the argument.until then.

Hello viaro,
I trust you are doing good out there.

viaro:

Hello MyJoe,

I did not have the desire to go into detail on 1 Corinthians 15:28 and that was why I summarised all that could be said by noting two things: (1) that Scripture does not confuse between the Deity and Humanity of Christ; and (b) that both His Humanity and Deity are united in Him.

It is in that summary that I suppose all other arguments stand to either make sense or else not at all. Christ's subjection to the Father does not take anything away from His Deity. Even the Father refers to the Son as "God" as cited in Heb. 1:8 - "But unto [b]the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom".  It is in the essential nature of the Son that He is confessed as "God". Yet, His submission to the Father is not a matter of only the future - for He has shown that same submission to the Father in His vicarious work on the Cross, whereby He is called "Lord" (Phil. 2:8-11). Even at that, the Son is not said to lose His essential nature of Being in 1 Cor. 15:28, for that verse does not negate the fact that even in the future, He is still worshipped.[/b]

As I tried to make clear in my earlier post, and will do again presently, this is hardly in contention.

viaro:
Further, it is clear that 1 Cor. 15:28 is not the first or only time that the Son is seen in such relationship to the Father or God. Both before His Incarnation and after His Resurrection and glorification, the Son is seen as the One through whom creation has to do with God. Not only that all things are reconciled to God in Him (Col. 1:20), but also: "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him" (Eph. 1:10). When this happens, shall the Son cease being worshipped? No, for even those who argue against His Deity (like karo93) still acknowledge that the Father and the Son are worshipped. Do you care to ask karo93 why he acknoweldges that fact?

I, too, acknowledged the above as a biblical position. What is in contention, as I understand it, are (1) Whether Jesus is equal with God (2) Whether the holy spirit is a person. 1 is what I have concerned myself with here. He is to be worshipped according to the Bible but not placed on the same level as the Almighty. This is the issue.

viaro:
This gathering all things together in Christ is what 1 Cor. 15:28 also points to - it is in Christ that the full expression of Godhood (Deity/Divinity)  will be expressed - that is also the essential message you find in Col. 1:19 - "For it pleased the Father that in Him (Christ) should all fulness dwell". That "all fulness" are found in the Son still expresses the fact that God is "all in all". The verse in 1 Cor. 15 does not mean that the fullness would no longer be expressed in Christ at that time; rather, it affirms that all existence will find that thing fully expressed in the Son.

This is where the Trinity doctrine gets really murky. My uncle, also named Joe, used to tell me something when I was a kid. Chewing on a piece of kola-nut and emphasising his point with a finger, he would hold my shoulder and go, "You know, MyJoe, if anything is not clear to you, know that there is wayo in it."   Not saying there is wayo here, but just emphasising how muddy this business gets when someone tries to explain it as you do above.

viaro:
I think you're mixing up issues here. Although you attempted to reconcile both diametric views, it still does not help to assume, that - (a) Christ was created by God at anytime; or that (b) worship could be rendered to a created being in the same way as the Father [John 5:23]. I still ask: why do those who argue against the Deity of Christ also acknowledge that He is to be worshipped? Does that even make sense to them in the body of all their arguments?

No, I am not mixing up issues. The issues are as I stated above. And the thread is about Trinity and the Bible.

viaro:
If Christ is Deity and indeed to be worshipped, WHAT essentially has been their problem in yet arguing against that same thing?

I think their problem is that they refuse to accept that anyone is equal to God. In my earlier post I highlighted the fact that Christ is assigned a unique role in the scheme of things in the Bible. In that role, he qualifies for worship but is not equal to God, whom he himself also worships as his God. Let me try again:

Here is man in relation to Jesus: worship and adoration (though not the same given to the Almighty)
John 20:28 (NIV)
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

And here is Jesus in relation to the Father: unqualified worship and adoration
Mark 10:17-18 (NIV)
17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
John 14:1 (NIV)
1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me.    (Note: God, then me. Two entities, one superior to the other.)
John 8:42 (NIV)
42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
John 20:17 (NIV)
17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
Matthew 27:46 (NIV)
46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi,[a] lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Conclusion: Jesus is not equal to God

viaro:
The OP has not shown a good grasp of his own arguments - he continues to evade simple issues that have been pointed out to him and only interested in feeding his own confused arguments. On that note, like I have said, I wish him good luck to keep pursuing whatever he already has made up his mind to believe. But he should ask himself why he still acknowledges that Christ is to be worshipped if He is not Deity?

See above.

la_vivi:

Hello friends,this topic is very interesting,but i must confess that am being swayed by Ijele's comments,he supported his claims with more clarified bible quotes better than others. karo made some good points but seems to be quitting or running out of ideas. Image and viaro is equally good but their supporting quotation is more deductive and seemed as to be derived than realistic(based on probablity). You guys has made me to stick close to my bible than ever. Am afraid am begining to think there's absolute nothing like Trinity. Can ijele pls speak more.   

My observation is that when we believe something we will do anything to find proof or evidence for it. This is the normal human tendency, whereas the proper strategy is to try to refute it. One example that readily comes to my mind here is the Witness position on blood transfusion. There is biblical ground for it, but it is very very tenuous and far-fetched. Now try explaining this to a Witness, and see how he writhes and rigmaroles, reeling off accounts of people who did heartless surgery, standing his ground and letting people die for a man-made doctrine.

Image123:

[b]There's a witness party here already. [/b]What an adventure. Viaro na wa o, no vex na.
Karo93, no vex us now, quit 'living in denial'.your excuses are boring. Can you imagine your excuse for Matthew 1v18?" It is BABY not child per se". What's that all about. Now you'll come and say you've addressed issues.
1Timothy 3v16 says God was received up into glory. You just said that refers to Jesus, so what's your problem. Your excuses are laughable to me, but they're becoming annoying to others o! Take your time.
I want to ask you, if we follow your reasoning of Jesus/Spirit is messenger therefore God is referred to. The angels are messengers aren't they? Even you'll claim to be a messenger? All the prophets in scriptures are messengers. Why are they not referred to as God like Jesus is referred to and like the Holy Ghost is referred to?
Also, who do you know/think created the world?

Sir, you know it won't hurt to read people's posts properly and then write sensible ones instead of casting thoughtless aspersions on others. If you say there is a Witness party that creates another problem for you: you have to show what is wrong with a "Witness party".

In all sincerely, I think karo is making a huge points,some of it are well simplified,his points are more convincing than others and he appeared so confident listing it out,let's not avoided them(his points) by de-bunking his points one after the other,@ karo pls explain john 1:1 for us

Hello MyJoe,

Actually, I had signed out of this thread to leave karo93 to believe whatever he wants to believe. My replies are simply out of geniality in deference to you, and that's why anyone would read from me in this thread once more.

MyJoe:

As I tried to make clear in my earlier post, and will do again presently, this is hardly in contention.

Oh there! That simple issue (that Jesus is God) was what I had wanted to deal with - and it is the direct opposite being argued by the OP in his topic in saying: "Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God". If you do not contend that Jesus is God, that should suffice - I have not tried to make Jesus anything other than what is declared in Scripture.

I, too, acknowledged the above as a biblical position. What is in contention, as I understand it, are (1) Whether Jesus is equal with God (2) Whether the holy spirit is a person. 1 is what I have concerned myself with here. He is to be worshipped according to the Bible but not placed on the same level as the Almighty. This is the issue.

I don't suppose I had placed you on the same level with karo93. Besides, I think that any question about (2) has been summarised beautifully in post #31. If you acknowledge that Jesus is God, and hold that as a Biblical position, there doesn't seem to be any further issues that we should get too involved with on that.

This is where the Trinity doctrine gets really murky. My uncle, also named Joe, used to tell me something when I was a kid. Chewing on a piece of kola-nut and emphasising his point with a finger, he would hold my shoulder and go, "You know, MyJoe, if anything is not clear to you, know that there is wayo in it."  Not saying there is wayo here, but just emphasising how muddy this business gets when someone tries to explain it as you do above.

Could I emphasize (without chewing kolanuts like uncle Joe) that viaro's position on the Trinity is as stated earlier: "The Trinity is a mystery that even metaphysics cannot adequately capture in words." There is no (wayo) or whatever in that statement; and because it is a mystery, no "explanation" that I can think of will even come close to capturing its essence in words. This is why I often leave those who want to argue all day on the Trinity (and yet do not know there is a huge difference between that and tritheism). What interests me more is whether Jesus is God, and what the implications in worship would be. If He is not God, then why worship Him?

No, I am not mixing up issues. The issues are as I stated above. And the thread is about Trinity and the Bible.

No sir - the thread is clear: Re:"Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity". On that basis, following my previous entries I then asked: "why do those who argue against the Deity of Christ also acknowledge that He is to be worshipped? Does that even make sense to them in the body of all their arguments?"

I think their problem is that they refuse to accept that anyone is equal to God. In my earlier post I highlighted the fact that Christ is assigned a unique role in the scheme of things in the Bible. In that role, he qualifies for worship but is not equal to God, whom he himself also worships as his God. Let me try again:

Sorry, that is not the Bible you're arguing, lol. I have heard a zillion and one things about this talk of "unique role" and yet not many who appeal to such quips are able to unravel what they mean by such. The two questions are simply these - (a) the assumption of  whether or not Christ was created by God at anytime; and (b) whether worship could be rendered to a created being in the same way as the Father [John 5:23].

Those two questions are still unanswered, and it seems we're looking away from them and veering to other things.

Here is man in relation to Jesus: worship and adoration (though not the same given to the Almighty)
John 20:28 (NIV)
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

And here is an example showing that the very same and equal worship that ALL CREATION render to the Almighty is the same worship that is given to Jesus Christ:

     'And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth,
      and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying,
     Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power,
     be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. "
     (Rev. 5:13).

The TOTALITY OF CREATION renders the same equal worship to both (a) "him that sitteth upon the throne"; and (b) "the Lamb" who is none other than the Son of God.

And here is Jesus in relation to the Father: unqualified worship and adoration
Mark 10:17-18 (NIV)
17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
John 14:1 (NIV)
1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me.    (Note: God, then me. Two entities, one superior to the other.)
John 8:42 (NIV)
42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
John 20:17 (NIV)
17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
Matthew 27:46 (NIV)
46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi,[a] lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

I have discussed this issue at some point - see my reply to DeepSight who misquoted Mark 10:18 in this other thread.

Conclusion: Jesus is not equal to God

That concludes nothing. If Jesus is not Deity, then the idea that He is to be worshipped is cosmetic talk.

Hello again viaro,
I will leave it at that. As to believing, I'm sorry but I was only doing aproko here.  I mean I don't actually toe either line and just wanted to enliven your debate which was becoming one-sided at a point. Seriously, though, I cannot see that Christianity owes its Trinity doctrine to the Bible.

MyJoe:

Hello again viaro,
I will leave it at that. As to believing, I'm sorry but I was only doing aproko here. I mean I don't actually toe either line and just wanted to enliven your debate which was becoming one-sided at a point. Seriously, though, I cannot see that Christianity owes its Trinity doctrine to the Bible.

Oh but it soooo does. You will not get off the hook this easy taking the humpty dumpty stance and sitting on the fence - even if Viaro excuses you lol. I will open a thread in the not too distant future and you will be cordially invited.