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What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question - Religion - Nairaland

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If Nothing Can Exist Without A Creator, So What Created God? / Who Created God? / Who Created God? - An Invalid Question (2) (3) (4)

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What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by vaxx: 12:14pm On Sep 21, 2017
this argument is flawed for two main reasons.

Firstly, anyone with a basic understanding of the philosophy of science will conclude that in the inference to the best explanation, the best explanation does not require an explanation! The following example illustrates this point. Imagine 500 years from now, a group of archaeologists start digging in osun oshogbo grove only to find parts of a car and a bus. They would be completely justified in inferring that these finds were not the result of any biological process but the products of an unknown civilization.

However if some skeptics were to argue that we cannot make such inferences because we do not know anything about this civilization, how they lived and who created them, would that make the archaeologists conclusions untrue? Of course not!

Secondly, if we take this contention seriously it could undermine the very foundations of science and philosophy themselves. If we require an explanation for the basic assumptions of science, for example that the external world exists, where do you think our level of scientific progress would be? Additionally if we were to apply this type of question to every attempt at explaining the explanation, we would end up with an infinite regression of explanation's. And an infinite regression of explanations would defeat the whole purpose of science in the first place – which is to provide an explanation! still continue............

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Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by vaxx: 6:31pm On Oct 20, 2018
This is an abandon thread of mine which I intend to make rich.

I am reviving it back to life.
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by vaxx: 6:55pm On Oct 20, 2018
Tortoise had once raised similar question...


tortoise challenges Achilles to use the force of logic to make him accept the conclusion of a simple deductive argument. Ultimately, Achilles fails, because the clever tortoise leads him into an infinite regression.


The discussion begins by considering the following logical argument: .........

A: "Things that are equal to the same are equal to each other" (Euclidean relation, a weakened form of the transitive property)
B: "The two sides of this triangle are things that are equal to the same"
Therefore, Z: "The two sides of this triangle are equal to each other"
The Tortoise asks Achilles whether the conclusion logically follows from the premises, and Achilles grants that it obviously does. The Tortoise then asks Achilles whether there might be a reader of Euclid who grants that the argument is logically valid, as a sequence, while denying that A and B are true. Achilles accepts that such a reader might exist, and that he would hold that if A and B are true, then Z must be true, while not yet accepting that A and B are true (that is, a reader who denies the premises).


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Tortoise_Said_to_Achilles


We can see from the dialogue that Achilles cannot overtake the tortoise in the race because Achilles fails, since the clever tortoise leads him into an infinite regression which in itself is a problem.. This is similar argument atheist ask believer where does God come from or what created God. The idea is to win the race just like clever tortoise who use the same logic to win Achilles.


But wait there is a solution if the respondents do not want to turn the question around and act like a tortoise themselves.
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by DeSepiero(m): 7:08pm On Oct 20, 2018
In essence, what created God?

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Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by Evangkatsoulis: 7:11pm On Oct 20, 2018
vaxx:
This is an abandon thread of mine which I intend to make rich.

I am reviving it back to life.

No smart person would ask who/what created God?
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by vaxx: 7:18pm On Oct 20, 2018
Evangkatsoulis:


No smart person would ask who/what created God?
i agree with you but let's tolerate the question for intellectual dialogue.
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by vaxx: 7:20pm On Oct 20, 2018
DeSepiero:
In essence, what created God?
I will begin to answer questions after the thread reached second page. I will take note of this one. The first question on this thread.

Well, I may eventually answer your question along the way.
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by vaxx: 7:26pm On Oct 20, 2018
Now , let's look at infinite regression problem again and let's see what contemporary philosopher says about it.

"'Aristotle argued that knowing does not necessitate an infinite regress because some knowledge does not depend on demonstration:

Some hold that, owing to the necessity of knowing the primary premises, there is no scientific knowledge. Others think there is, but that all truths are demonstrable. Neither doctrine is either true or a necessary deduction from the premises. The first school, assuming that there is no way of knowing other than by demonstration, maintain that an infinite regress is involved, on the ground that if behind the prior stands no primary, we could not know the posterior through the prior (wherein they are right, for one cannot traverse an infinite series): if on the other hand – they say – the series terminates and there are primary premises, yet these are unknowable because incapable of demonstration, which according to them is the only form of knowledge. And since thus one cannot know the primary premises, knowledge of the conclusions which follow from them is not pure scientific knowledge nor properly knowing at all, but rests on the mere supposition that the premises are true. The other party agree with them as regards knowing, holding that it is only possible by demonstration, but they see no difficulty in holding that all truths are demonstrated, on the ground that demonstration may be circular and reciprocal. Our own doctrine is that not all knowledge is demonstrative: on the contrary, knowledge of the immediate premises is independent of demonstration. (The necessity of this is obvious; for since we must know the prior premises from which the demonstration is drawn, and since the regress must end in immediate truths, those truths must be indemonstrable.) Such, then, is our doctrine, and in addition we maintain that besides scientific knowledge there is its original source which enables us to recognize the definitions""

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posterior_Analytics


An analytical diagram of infinite regress below.

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Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by vaxx: 7:53pm On Oct 20, 2018
Now back to the question......


The Athiest are demanding for what created God . They are not satisfy that God will get a free pass..... If everything has a cause according to the believers. So in an effort to discredit this theory . They demand an explanation for God origin as well?

In order to answer such questions, we first need to clarify what we mean by “God.” The athiest needs to first understand the definition of God. Is it just another one of the causes within the system of causes that science explains? If so then we would need not to search for a cause for God. And the athiest will be right to fully say the believer are bridging the empty gap. Which they normally called ignorance of the gap""

But if God is something fundamentally different from the created order (what theologians call "transcendent"wink, then God's definition as a being is truly confused and misapplied by the atheist.


I repeat again....""Aristotle argued that knowing does not necessitate an infinite regress because some knowledge does not depend on demonstration "".

So let's see if what theologians call transcendent order can be a form of knowledge and if it is enough to really rely on .
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by LordReed(m): 8:21pm On Oct 20, 2018
The problem with this track is, it ends with "Why must we accept that God is uncreated or his origins are beyond comprehension but deny this for the universe itself?". A position where we accept that the universe is uncreated or its origins are beyond comprehension is even more logical (given our observations of our universe) than inserting a being with similar characteristics.

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Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by vaxx: 8:31pm On Oct 20, 2018
Let's look at principle of sufficient reason as a way to justify the knowledge of trancedent order that the believer holds to be true.

Sufficient reason has a variety of expressions, all of which can be summarized as following.

For every entity X, if X exists, then there is a sufficient explanation for why X exists.

For every event E, if E occurs, then there is a sufficient explanation for why E occurs.

For every proposition P, if P is true, then there is a sufficient explanation for why P is true.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_sufficient_reason



This is one of the logical argument Spinoza push forward ... and it justify the knowledge of transcendent order that can not be demonsrated but hold enough explanation to be true.


To be continue........ Budaatum....this is an explanation to the question you raises concerning Newton.. ..
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by vaxx: 8:42pm On Oct 20, 2018
LordReed:
The problem with this track is, it ends with "Why must we accept that God is uncreated or his origins are beyond comprehension but deny this for the universe itself?". A position where we accept that the universe is uncreated or its origins are beyond comprehension is even more logical (given our observations of our universe) than inserting a being with similar characteristics.
.....This is not a direct response to your question. I will answer you in the next two page..

But let's have a discussion. Do you honestly believe that the universe get started(i mean had a begining )? Current valid science report says it was powered by the big bang. Let me tell you my position earlier. I subscribe to this concept.
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by LordReed(m): 8:45pm On Oct 20, 2018
vaxx:
.....This is not a direct response to yiur question. I will answer you in the next two page..

But let's have a discussion. Do you honestly believe that the universe get started(i mean had a begining )? Science says it was powered by the bing bang. Let tell me tell you my position earlier. I subscribe to this concept.


My understanding is the big bang is the event that set our universe into motion. What came before the event is unknown as at this time.

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Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by DeSepiero(m): 8:48pm On Oct 20, 2018
Evangkatsoulis:


No smart person would ask who/what created God?

They eventually entertain the question, people who point out to every entity, ascribing them to a creator.
The question seeks to query the exception - God.
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by Evangkatsoulis: 9:00pm On Oct 20, 2018
DeSepiero:


They eventually entertain the question, people who point out to every entity, ascribing them to a creator.
The question seeks to query the exception - God.



But by definition God is uncreated.
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by budaatum: 9:08pm On Oct 20, 2018
He typically forgets the problem of induction that he himself raises and then attempts to use the same induction to prove the existence of gods! I shake my head.

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Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by vaxx: 9:10pm On Oct 20, 2018
LordReed:


My understanding is the big bang is the event that set our universe into motion
There is so much scientific evidence for this which make it plausible. .


What came before the event is unknown as at this time

Many cosmologists have attempted to proffer solution to this . And their preferred hypotheses—explanations that they personally find especially plausible or mathematically elegant is the idea that our universe is just one part of an infinite and eternal universe of universes, often called a multiverse. This is simply a belief anyway as it currently does not have compelling evidence to be called a theory..

And as it is known scientific beliefs must be subject to testing and falsification. In fact, there is a bit of a ruckus among cosmologists right now because some critics argue that the string theory/multiverse model of how the universe began is not properly testable, and so cannot be considered a true scientific hypothesis. There is a Wikipedia articule on this. I will check for it.

So if personally theologians belief that his God created the initial conditions for the Big Bang, no athiest should say he is wrong. Even if scientists come up with solid evidence for a pre-existing, eternal mutiverse, the believer could still believe that the multiverse was created by God. Or even consider that God is the reason why the universe keeps existing from moment to moment.These are not testable, physical ideas. They truly are matters of faith. It is simply a sufficient reason.

But it can only become a problem only if theologians choose to elevate it above observational truths. That can lead to illogical, even destructive behaviors.


Atheist therefore needs to be truthful to themselves that the theologian idea of God is sufficient until it violate observational truths. Which it has not done since time memorial.

The theologians may play the tortoise game too with the athiest you know.
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by DeSepiero(m): 9:11pm On Oct 20, 2018
Evangkatsoulis:


But by definition God is uncreated.

By "definition"
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by vaxx: 9:15pm On Oct 20, 2018
I have never attempt to prove God here....but red hearing candidate will not see that I am only making an attempt to invalidate the questions of the atheist. But welcome to my thread anyway.....
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by LordReed(m): 9:41pm On Oct 20, 2018
vaxx:
There is so much scientific evidence for this which make it plausible. .


Many cosmologists have attempted to proffer solution to this . And their preferred hypotheses—explanations that they personally find especially plausible or mathematically elegant is the idea that our universe is just one part of an infinite and eternal universe of universes, often called a multiverse. This is simply a belief anyway as it currently does not have compelling evidence to be called a theory..

And as it is known scientific beliefs must be subject to testing and falsification. In fact, there is a bit of a ruckus among cosmologists right now because some critics argue that the string theory/multiverse model of how the universe began is not properly testable, and so cannot be considered a true scientific hypothesis. There is a Wikipedia articule on this. I will check for it.

So if personally theologians belief that his hos created the initial conditions for the Big Bang, no athiest should say he is wrong. Even if scientists come up with solid evidence for a pre-existing, eternal mutiverse, the believer could still believe that the multiverse was created by God. Or even consider that God is the reason why the universe keeps existing from moment to moment.These are not testable, physical ideas. They truly are matters of faith. It is simply a sufficient reason.

But it can only become a problem only if theologians choose to elevate it above observational truths. That can lead to illogical, even destructive behaviors.


Atheist therefore needs to be truthful to themselves that the theologian idea of God is sufficient until it violate observational truths. Which it has not done since time memorial.

The theologians may play the tortoise game too with the athiest you know.

You said said you won't answer my first post but decided to assert here that God is the unexplainable cause of the universe. So then explain why I shouldn't similarly assert that no god created the universe, that it created itself and ask you not to question my position?

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Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by vaxx: 9:45pm On Oct 20, 2018
LordReed:


You said said you won't answer my first post but decided to assert here that God is the unexplainable cause of the universe. So then explain why I shouldn't similarly assert that no god created the universe, that it created itself and ask you not to question my position?
I am not answering your question. I am opening you up to the twin possibility of how or if . That is hypothesis.

I never assert that God is unexplainable. I said God knolewdge for the theologians is sufficient...


I am not a fun of tortoise game , I will.have play the game with you. But will still answer your question as promised
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by LordReed(m): 9:56pm On Oct 20, 2018
vaxx:
I am not answering your question. I am opening you up to the twin possibility of how or if . That is hypothesis.

I never assert that God is unexplainable. I said God knolewdge for the theologians is sufficient...


I am not a fun of tortoise game , I will.have play the game with you. But will still answer your question as promised



Oh please stop being coy. This:

So if personally theologians belief that his hos created the initial conditions for the Big Bang, no athiest should say he is wrong. Even if scientists come up with solid evidence for a pre-existing, eternal mutiverse, the believer could still believe that the multiverse was created by God. Or even consider that God is the reason why the universe keeps existing from moment to moment.These are not testable, physical ideas. They truly are matters of faith. It is simply a sufficient reason.

Is a full blown assertion with a subtle "Bleep off" slapped on top of it.

Anyways I await your answer.

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Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by budaatum: 9:59pm On Oct 20, 2018
vaxx:
Atheist therefore needs to be truthful to themselves that the theologian idea of God is sufficient until it violate observational truths. Which it has not done since time memorial.
"God knowledge" may be "sufficient for the theologians" but we are not all theologians in need of filling gaps to erase infinite regressions away.

Occam would say "plurality should not be posited without necessity". So why fill gaps in knowledge with a god when, a simple " I don't know" would be a more accurate response?

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Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by vaxx: 10:00pm On Oct 20, 2018
Five troops of Agrippa that validate the sufficient explanation . It is way of telling questionier how it is impossible to propel some certain knowledge.

The five troops are as follows.


1 Disecent. The uncertainty demonstrated by the differences of opinions among philosophers and people in general.

2 Progress ad infinitum – All proof rests on matters themselves in need of proof, and so on to infinity.

3 Relation – All things are changed as their relations become changed, or, as we look upon them from different points of view.

3. Assumption – The truth asserted is based on an unsupported assumption.

4 Circularity – The truth asserted involves a circularity of proofs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrippa_the_Skeptic

Read further from there...

LordReed , budaatum ...I think this strengthen my response better ....


To be continue
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by vaxx: 10:18pm On Oct 20, 2018
LordReed:


Oh please stop being coy. This:

So if personally theologians belief that his hos created the initial conditions for the Big Bang, no athiest should say he is wrong. Even if scientists come up with solid evidence for a pre-existing, eternal mutiverse, the believer could still believe that the multiverse was created by God. Or even consider that God is the reason why the universe keeps existing from moment to moment.These are not testable, physical ideas. They truly are matters of faith. It is simply a sufficient reason.

Is a full blown assertion with a subtle "Bleep off" slapped on top of it.

Anyways I await your answer.


Even when I said it can become a problem if the theologians choose to elevate this belief above observational evidence..... common
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by LordReed(m): 10:23pm On Oct 20, 2018
vaxx:
Five troops of Agrippa that validate the sufficient explanation . It is way of telling questionier how it is impossible to propel some certain knowledge.

The five troops are as follows.


1 Disecent. The uncertainty demonstrated by the differences of opinions among philosophers and people in general.

2 Progress ad infinitum – All proof rests on matters themselves in need of proof, and so on to infinity.

3 Relation – All things are changed as their relations become changed, or, as we look upon them from different points of view.

3. Assumption – The truth asserted is based on an unsupported assumption.

4 Circularity – The truth asserted involves a circularity of proofs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrippa_the_Skeptic

Read further from there...

LordReed , budaatum ...I think this strengthen my response better ....


To be continue

No it does not strengthen your position, it weakens all positions. LoL

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Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by LordReed(m): 10:24pm On Oct 20, 2018
vaxx:
Even when I said it can become a problem if the theologians choose to elevate this belief above observational evidence..... common


I am waiting for your response.

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Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by vaxx: 10:30pm On Oct 20, 2018
budaatum:

"God knowledge" may be "sufficient for the theologians" but we are not all theologians in need of filling gaps to erase infinite regressions away.

Occam would say "plurality should not be posited without necessity". So why fill gaps in knowledge with a god when, a simple " I don't know" would be a more accurate response?

An italian word ""Se non è vero, è ben trovato"" ("Even if it is not true, it is well conceived"wink have you read anti ocam response by Karl merger.

I myself use to be a lover of Occam, not until I was exposed to strong rebuttal that I cannot denied.
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by vaxx: 10:32pm On Oct 20, 2018
LordReed:


No it does not strengthen your position, it weakens all positions. LoL
might need to know? Remember we are dealing with the possibility why sufficient explanation must be enough unless we want to enter into problem of induction.
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by vaxx: 10:44pm On Oct 20, 2018
Still on sufficient explanation.

Leibniz one of the brightest mind in philosophy admitted contingent truths on the basis of infinitary reasons, to which God had access but humans did not:

""In contingent truths, even though the predicate is in the subject, this can never be demonstrated, nor can a proposition ever be reduced to an equality or to an identity, but the resolution proceeds to infinity, God alone seeing, not the end of the resolution, of course, which does not exist, but the connection of the terms or the containment of the predicate in the subject, since he sees whatever is in the series"""
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by budaatum: 10:49pm On Oct 20, 2018
vaxx:
Five troops of Agrippa that validate the sufficient explanation . It is way of telling questionier how it is impossible to propel some certain knowledge.

The five troops are as follows.


1 Disecent. The uncertainty demonstrated by the differences of opinions among philosophers and people in general.

2 Progress ad infinitum – All proof rests on matters themselves in need of proof, and so on to infinity.

3 Relation – All things are changed as their relations become changed, or, as we look upon them from different points of view.

3. Assumption – The truth asserted is based on an unsupported assumption.

4 Circularity – The truth asserted involves a circularity of proofs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrippa_the_Skeptic

Read further from there...

LordReed , budaatum ...I think this strengthen my response better ....


To be continue
Since you admit that
vaxx:
Even when I said it can become a problem if the theologians choose to elevate this belief above observational evidence..... common
I must admit I don't quite get your point in relation to the topic of the thread since what you posted Agrippa said can also be invoked in an argument against gods.

An understanding of gods is however sufficient to make it possible to propel certain knowledge about gods, except by a tortoise who refuses to perform modus ponens of course, which it is permitted to do where conventionalism and the such like is concerned but not when considering what is observed i.e. simply determining when to cross a busy road. Though, I do recall you equivocating when defining a table.
Re: What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question by vaxx: 10:52pm On Oct 20, 2018
Let's look at the four root of sufficient explanation according to Arthur Schopenhauer....


First Form: The Principle of Sufficient Reason of Becoming (principium rationis sufficientis fiendi); appears as the law of causality in the understanding.

Second Form: The Principle of Sufficient Reason of Knowing (principium rationis sufficientis cognoscendi); asserts that if a judgment is to express a piece of knowledge, it must have a sufficient ground or reason, in which case it receives the predicate true.

Third Form: The Principle of Sufficient Reason of Being (principium rationis sufficientis essendi); the law whereby the parts of space and time determine one another as regards those relations.[18] Example in arithmetic: Each number presupposes the preceding numbers as grounds or reasons of its being; "I can reach ten only by going through all the preceding numbers; and only by virtue of this insight into the ground of being, do I know that where there are ten, so are there eight, six, four."

"Now just as the subjective correlative to the first class of representations is the understanding, that to the second the faculty of reason, and that to the third pure sensibility, so is the subjective correlative to this fourth class found to be the inner sense, or generally self-consciousness."

Fourth Form: The Principle of Sufficient Reason of Acting (principium rationis sufficientis agendi); briefly known as the law of motivation. "Any judgment that does not follow its previously existing ground or reason" or any state that cannot be explained away as falling under the three previous headings "must be produced by an act of will which has a motive."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schopenhauer......

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