Alright my dear friend.

I apologize in advance for going back to a dead horse.

I just cannot wrap my head around this one – your statement – and repeated confirmation of the statement – that you believe that physical bodies may rise and dwell bodily in intangible immaterial spiritual realms.

I want to discuss that concept here – if you can manage it, objectively – and devoid of any unnecessary inferences or tangents from past discussions. Let us discuss it from an existential or ontological point of view applying what little knowledge or understanding of such things as the Almighty has provided for us.

For my part, you know already I do not believe that it is possible for a physical being to dwell bodily in a non-material realm.

I have been taken aback by your belief to the contrary.

I'm nt Viaro,butkan I make my input b4 he stepz in?

Of Course Odunnu! Please go ahead.

when and where did viaro make such claim?

^^^ Here -

viaro:


I don't know where the Bible makes any claims that physical bodies do not reside in spiritual realms. Rather, I know that the Bible declares that the bodies of the saints shall be "changed" whereby "this corruptible shall have put on incorruption" (1 Cor. 15:51-54). Beyond that, the Bible shows indeed that physical bodies have been taken into the heavenly realms - as in the case with Elijah and Enoch.

Also -

viaro:


It is very conceivable for the material to enter into the spiritual or 'intangible'. Such was the case with Enoch, such is the case of the ascension of Christ, and such is the case of His appearing among His disciples while the doors were shut (John 20:19).

It is not illogical - your own argument is both extreme and illogical. When Jesus rose from the dead, His disciples were able to touch and handle Him (John 20:27). With that same glorified body, He ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9).

Also I asked him this Question -

“Again the very make of the physical body is designed to deal with a physical atmosphere – in all its functions. Do you really suppose such a body with such functionalities can enter into a realm said to be intangible?”

His response -

viaro:


Absolutely.

I have no worries about that - and yes, I do believe it affirmatively.

whats the link to the thread from which the above quotes came?

Serious!

Lol! I had to laugh at the, "such was it with Enoch" statement. I have read some excerpts from the book of Enoch and Enoch was not transported to any immaterial world or intangible realm or whatever. Where he went, according to that book, was very very physical place that is every bit as physical as the interior of any big multi storey jumbo jet, lika a Boeing 767 for example. According to the highly detailed description of that socalled abode of jehovah, it looked very suspiciously like a huge mothership orbiting the planet earth at that time.

Enoch was led on a tour inside the mothership and he described what he saw thus, it was a 10 storey interior with each floor dedicated to different scientific disciplines (can you believe that). One floor was dedicated to cosmology and astronomy, while another floor was dedicated to horticulture. Another floor was some kind of prison for rebel crews or angels. On the topmost floor, Enoch finally came face to face with "the lord" and his description of how this "lord's" face looked like was most interesting, and the description was interestingly cut short because the book excerpts ended at this point.

So using this tale from the book of Enoch as an example for a possible physical being entering the non- material realm is a total fallacy. Besides it is not possible in my own opinion.

^^^ That is my perspective. I regard it as irrational, especially if one reflects on what it means to state - "immaterial" or "intangible" realm.

What say ye, Noetic?

First off, a few comments to this:

Deep Sight:

^^^ That is my perspective. I regard it as irrational, especially if one reflects on what it means to state - "immaterial" or "intangible" realm.

But who else than you DeepSight has stated it thus? Are you not the same person who has stated it as such and then went round in circles that it could not be so?

jagunlabi:

So using this tale from the book of Enoch as an example for a possible physical being entering the non- material realm is a total fallacy. Besides it is not possible in my own opinion.

As long as that is your appeal for your conclusion, is there anything to wonder about then?

@noetic,

noetic16:

whats the link to the thread from which the above quotes came?

Hi. Not to worry - the link is: 'Show Me The Autheticity Of Your Bible', and in due course I shall sort out any point that may not be clear to you and others.

jagunlabi:

According to the highly detailed description of that socalled abode of jehovah, it looked very suspiciously like a huge mothership orbiting the planet earth at that time.

Enoch was led on a tour inside the mothership and he described what he saw thus, it was a 10 storey interior with each floor dedicated to different scientific disciplines (can you believe that). One floor was dedicated to cosmology and astronomy, while another floor was dedicated to horticulture. Another floor was some kind of prison for rebel crews or angels. On the topmost floor, Enoch finally came face to face with "the lord" and his description of how this "lord's" face looked like was most interesting, and the description was interestingly cut short because the book excerpts ended at this point.

Jagun, i see we are back to the extra terrestrial God theory   how now?

@DeepSight,

Okay, my reply to your OP. Thanks for the invitation.

Deep Sight:

I just cannot wrap my head around this one – your statement – and repeated confirmation of the statement – that you believe that physical bodies may rise and dwell bodily in intangible immaterial spiritual realms.

Your concerns are appreciated. May I also confirm the quotes as appear in post #4 that those are my views on the possibility (yea, affirmation) that physical bodies may rise and dwell bodily in the spiritual realms.

I want to discuss that concept here – if you can manage it, objectively – and devoid of any unnecessary inferences or tangents from past discussions.

As long as it is done "objectively" (by implication, that my answers are based on the Biblical worldview as foundation for this discussion), then that is all fine with me. Unless you're asserting that you're not interested in the foundation of my convictions thereto, in which case, it might be better to draw the curtains on this thread before you proceed.

Let us discuss it from an existential or ontological point of view applying what little knowledge or understanding of such things as the Almighty has provided for us.

Those terms do not elude me; but I'm not quite sure what you may mean by 'existential' and/or 'ontological' point(s) of view. So long as you do not try to narrow all realities to just your own idea about existence and ontology, we can well chat along.

For my part, you know already I do not believe that it is possible for a physical being to dwell bodily in a non-material realm.

Your belief or non-belief about possibilities between existences are not my worry - not at all. What is of far more import is that you don't try to use your own limited idealism as arbitration for all other existences and realities - especially those which you may find quite difficult to contain within your worldview.

I have been taken aback by your belief to the contrary

Please try not to make my belief the plank for your quarrels - that way, you won't have to be perturbed about whatever convictions viaro holds. I'm not a deist, and reference about my own worldview and personal convictions do not come under the incontinencies of deism or anyone else's idealism.

@DeepSight,

Let's take this as your basic enquiry that informs this thread:

Deep Sight:

“Again the very make of the physical body is designed to deal with a physical atmosphere – in all its functions. Do you really suppose such a body with such functionalities can enter into a realm said to be intangible?”

Indeed. I'm persuaded that the physical body can enter into the realm of the 'spiritual' (if that's what you meant by 'intangible').

So, let me once more lay the foundation here for my convictions thereto. First, please remember that my point of reference is the Bible and NOT deism. The Bible is my source for "such things as the Almighty has provided for us" as far as this discussion goes, and there I rest my convictions about spiritual matters. Thus, within the matrix of the Biblical worldview I find the affirmation that physical bodies do enter into the spiritual realms.

A few examples oft-cited include:

(a) Enoch
The simple testimony of Scripture is that Enoch did not experience death - "Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him" (Heb. 11:5, ESV). For those who wish to argue endlessly to the contrary, my simple request is that they provide me any verse where Enoch is said to have died - death being defined Biblically as 'the body without the spirit' (James 2:26).

(b) Elijah
"Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (1 Kings 22: is an oft-quoted verse to this point, from which we understand that he was taken up bodily into heaven just as was reported of Enoch. There is not a single verse that declares Elijah's death anywhere in Scripture - if you disagree, please show me where it is said that Elijah experienced death: just the verse for Elijah's death should suffice, nothing more than that.

There are other examples, but let those two suffice for now. It is not an argument based on your personal disagreements or preferences about a physical body entering into the spiritual realms - rather, for me, it's one that is based on the Bible as my reference undergirding the convictions I hold on these things.

subscribing

^^^ And what's your own perspective, Inesqor?

Deep Sight:

^^^ That is my perspective. I regard it as irrational, especially if one reflects on what it means to state - "immaterial" or "intangible" realm.

What say ye, Noetic?

I'd like viaro to make his full submission before asking any questions and raising any posers to either of u.

---

viaro:

@noetic,

Hi. Not to worry - the link is: 'Show Me The Autheticity Of Your Bible', and in due course I shall sort out any point that may not be clear to you and others.

I just wanted to be sure DeepSight was not extracting ur quotes out of context as he normally does with mine.

Deep Sight:

^^^ And what's your own perspective, Inesqor?

@Deep Sight: As I once said, it may be easy to pass off some OT accounts as fables, but when the same characters appear in the SAME light in the NT, then you know that it must be an accurate account.

I believe Elijah and Enoch translated bodily to heaven.

And I will like you to consider a more holistic view on your understanding of the natures of existence, and of spiritual matters. You can't have an exclusive view that physical bodies CANNOT exist in a spiritual heaven BECAUSE you do NOT know ALL the existential laws that define such natures, and you are not factoring in the possibilities of anomalies.

viaro:

@DeepSight,

Let's take this as your basic enquiry that informs this thread:

Indeed. I'm persuaded that the physical body can enter into the realm of the 'spiritual' (if that's what you meant by 'intangible').

So, let me once more lay the foundation here for my convictions thereto. First, please remember that my point of reference is the Bible and NOT deism. The Bible is my source for "such things as the Almighty has provided for us" as far as this discussion goes, and there I rest my convictions about spiritual matters. Thus, within the matrix of the Biblical worldview I find the affirmation that physical bodies do enter into the spiritual realms.

A few examples oft-cited include:

(a) Enoch
The simple testimony of Scripture is that Enoch did not experience death - "Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him" (Heb. 11:5, ESV). For those who wish to argue endlessly to the contrary, my simple request is that they provide me any verse where Enoch is said to have died - death being defined Biblically as 'the body without the spirit' (James 2:26).

(b) Elijah
"Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (1 Kings 22: is an oft-quoted verse to this point, from which we understand that he was taken up bodily into heaven just as was reported of Enoch. There is not a single verse that declares Elijah's death anywhere in Scripture - if you disagree, please show me where it is said that Elijah experienced death: just the verse for Elijah's death should suffice, nothing more than that.

There are other examples, but let those two suffice for now. It is not an argument based on your personal disagreements or preferences about a physical body entering into the spiritual realms - rather, for me, it's one that is based on the Bible as my reference undergirding the convictions I hold on these things.

There is no reason to believe that Enoch or Elijah went to heaven/realm of the spiritual. . . . .and there are several notions that support this truth . . . ,

1. Jesus stated categorically in John 3:13 that no man has EVER ascended into heaven . .  .except for the son of man that descended from it. To allege that Elijah or Enoch ascended into heaven is to call Jesus a LIAR.

2. The case of Elijah is interesting because while we readily ASSUME that Elijah was taken by the whirlwind into heaven, the prophets who knew of the event did not assume so. In 2 kings 2:17,  50 men set out to search for Elijah based on the assumption and belief that he was probably dropped off in an unknown island.

3. Elijah would later write a letter to the reigning king, long after his whirlwind experience when he was supposed to be in heaven 2 chronicles 21:12-15. This suggests that Elijah was close by, else how did he get to send the letter? or are letters written from the spiritual realm?

4. Enoch was taken. . . .but to where?. . . .No one knows. . . . . .but we also know he never went to heaven. . .cos Jesus said so.

5. The bible talks of the death in Christ awaiting resurrection. . . . .it also talks of the patriarchs awaiting ressurecction. u might argue that the saints are now in heaven. . . .but the same bible AFFIRMS that their bodies are in the grave.

6. Perhaps if u expand the scope of the spiritual realm to include "unknown places" like the garden of eden. . . , then I might agree with ur submission. Because we do know that the garden is in this earth and Adam lived there where he was not subject to disease, ageing, death or other irregularities in our world today.


Submissively, if ur definition of the spiritual/immaterial includes other unknown places of existence like the garden of eden then I do agree that our physical bodies can dwell in such "heavens" . . . .but if u refer to the heavens where angelice beings and Jehovah reside. . . .then I am bound to disagree with ur submission.

Joh 3:11 Listen carefully. I'm speaking sober truth to you. I speak only of what I know by experience; I give witness only to what I have seen with my own eyes. There is nothing secondhand here, no hearsay. Yet instead of facing the evidence and accepting it, you procrastinate with questions.
Joh 3:12 If I tell you things that are plain as the hand before your face and you don't believe me, what use is there in telling you of things you can't see, the things of God?
Joh 3:13 "No one has ever gone up into the presence of God except the One who came down from that Presence, the Son of Man.
Joh 3:14 In the same way that Moses lifted the serpent in the desert so people could have something to see and then believe, it is necessary for the Son of Man to be lifted up--
Joh 3:15 and everyone who looks up to him, trusting and expectant, will gain a real life, eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life.
Joh 3:17 God didn't go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again.

John 3:13 in light of Enoch and Elijah does not make Jesus a liar. Did Enoch ascend into the presence of God? Can a physical man ascend into the VERY presence of God? That is another question, and not "can he ascend into heaven?" God said no man could see him and live. I don't think a physical body can survive in God's presence. Heaven is the vast and ambient place where God dwells. Is heaven a "location" like you can pinpoint physically? Nope. . . it isn't. I don't want to go into that.

In summary, only Jesus in his pre-incarnate form had been INSIDE God. He was saying the truth, and Enoch and Elijah went to heaven. The Bible doesn't say otherwise.

InesQor:

Joh 3:11 Listen carefully. I'm speaking sober truth to you. I speak only of what I know by experience; I give witness only to what I have seen with my own eyes. There is nothing secondhand here, no hearsay. Yet instead of facing the evidence and accepting it, you procrastinate with questions.
Joh 3:12 If I tell you things that are plain as the hand before your face and you don't believe me, what use is there in telling you of things you can't see, the things of God?
Joh 3:13 "No one has ever gone up into the presence of God except the One who came down from that Presence, the Son of Man.
Joh 3:14 In the same way that Moses lifted the serpent in the desert so people could have something to see and then believe, it is necessary for the Son of Man to be lifted up--
Joh 3:15 and everyone who looks up to him, trusting and expectant, will gain a real life, eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life.
Joh 3:17 God didn't go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again.

John 3:13 in light of Enoch and Elijah does not make Jesus a liar. Did Enoch ascend into the presence of God? Can a physical man ascend into the VERY presence of God? That is another question, and not "can he ascend into heaven?" God said no man could see him and live. I don't think a physical body can survive in God's presence. Heaven is the vast and ambient place where God dwells. Is heaven a "location" like you can pinpoint physically? Nope. . . it isn't. I don't want to go into that.

In summary, only Jesus in his pre-incarnate form had been INSIDE God. He was saying the truth, and Enoch and Elijah went to heaven. The Bible doesn't say otherwise.

1. I use a KJV bible . . . .John 3:!3 talks of HEAVEN and not the presence of God.

2. since heaven is the dwelling place of God . . . .how could Enoch and Elijah have ascended there since no man can see God and live? is this not a contradiction?

3. Enoch and Elijah did NOT ascend into heaven . . . . to claim so is to say that Jesus lied.

@noetic: I don hear. I suggest you take time and pray about the nature of heaven as God's dwelling place, and the Holy Spirit will gladly explain it to you like he did to me. Cheers.

^^^ addendum:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

By him all things CONSIST. Heaven included.

Consist (n): Originate (in), Be composed of, Be congruous, Have its essential character; Be comprised or contained in; Be embodied in

InesQor:

@noetic: I don hear. I suggest you take time and pray about the nature of heaven as God's dwelling place, and the Holy Spirit will gladly explain it to you like he did to me. Cheers.

What arrogance. What if you are the one who needs to pray for further understanding? Why do you presume the "Holy Spirit" has not explained this to Noetic?

I am more likely to believe that Noetic would have such "contact" with the Holy Spirit given that we are yet to see in him a certain predilection to duplicity and deceit which you suffer from. Could that predilection also be a gift from the Holy Spirit? ? ?

noetic16:

There is no reason to believe that Enoch or Elijah went to heaven/realm of the spiritual. . . . .and there are several notions that support this truth . . . ,

1. Jesus stated categorically in John 3:13 that no man has EVER ascended into heaven . . .except for the son of man that descended from it. To allege that Elijah or Enoch ascended into heaven is to call Jesus a LIAR.

GBAM.

2. The case of Elijah is interesting because while we readily ASSUME that Elijah was taken by the whirlwind into heaven, the prophets who knew of the event did not assume so. In 2 kings 2:17, 50 men set out to search for Elijah based on the assumption and belief that he was probably dropped off in an unknown island.

GBAM.

3. Elijah would later write a letter to the reigning king, long after his whirlwind experience when he was supposed to be in heaven 2 chronicles 21:12-15. This suggests that Elijah was close by, else how did he get to send the letter? or are letters written from the spiritual realm?

GBAMEST GBAM! GBAM!! GBOSA! ! !

Oya, Inesqor, Viaro, where did the letter come from?

“Heaven?”

Deep Sight:

What arrogance. What if you are the one who needs to pray for further understanding? Why do you presume the "Holy Spirit" has not explained this to Noetic?

I am more likely to believe that Noetic would have such "contact" with the Holy Spirit given that we are yet to see in him a certain predilection to duplicity and deceit which you suffer from. Could that predilection also be a gift from the Holy Spirit? ? ?

Deep Sight, this post was entirely unnecessary. I was speaking to a Christian that I know hears from God. You will do well to mind your business in this particular case, please.

[exits thread]

ETA: @aletheia: I quoted from the MESSAGE translation. I believe the "presence of God" is not the emphasis there, as it could read heaven as well.

οὐρανός
ouranos
oo-ran-os'
Perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness, power, eternity; specifically the Gospel (Christianity): - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

@InesQor

InesQor:

Joh 3:13 "No one has ever gone up into the presence of God except the One who came down from that Presence, the Son of Man.

Please what translation/version are you quoting because it doesn't quite accord with the original Greek?

Joh 3:13  και ουδεις αναβεβηκεν εις τον ουρανον ει μη ο εκ του ουρανου καταβας ο υιος του ανθρωπου ο ων εν τω ουρανω (Greek New Testament Textus Receptus)

The highlighted words ouranos means sky and by extension heaven.

davidylan:

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that[b] flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption[/b].

is that u on ur profile? that looks cool

lol noetic16, thanks.