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Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by frank317: 10:16am On Feb 08, 2018
butterflyl1on:


Did you not say you were once a Christian? Do you not know?

Unless you lied about being a christian that's the only way you would not know the parameters.

I actually left Christianity because I discovered it does not lead to any God. Just some nonsensical stories about some jewish God who sent himself as his son to die for jews and if u dont believe in this rubbish he will burn u forever... is this your parameter for discovering God?

1 Like

Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by butterflyl1on: 10:21am On Feb 08, 2018
frank317:


I actually left Christianity because I discovered it does not lead to any God. Just some nonsensical stories about some jewish God who sent himself as his son to die for jews and if u dont believe in this rubbish he will burn u forever... is this your parameter for discovering God?

You say you left Christianity but I was not referring to that in my comment. I was talking about being Christian. (there is a difference)
Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by frank317: 11:58am On Feb 08, 2018
butterflyl1on:


You say you left Christianity but I was not referring to that in my comment. I was talking about being Christian. (there is a difference)

i wouldn't have been a Muslim to leave Christianity would i
Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by Seun(m): 1:42pm On Feb 08, 2018
Pls this thread is for deists.

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Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by Nobody: 3:44pm On Feb 08, 2018
I like the idea of pantheism, and I think God is everything and everyone. We were all a part of the big bang. I reject the atheist/materialist stance that our world was created by random chance. There is order in our world. Here's an excerpt from the book I'm currently reading-

According to materialism, there is an objective world independent of our minds controlled by scientific laws of cause and effect that are equally independent of our minds. A scientific materialist can happily think of the universe as containing no minds at all, including his own. Science is about revealing the “objective truth” of a kind of dead, mindless, mechanical universe. Science has made no inroads at all into explaining life,
mind or consciousness. All of its great successes concern the universe as a cemetery, or as a great clockwork mechanism incapable of exhibiting free will, desire or passion. . .

. . .It is in fact extremely difficult for materialists to account for the existence of scientific laws – if they are part of the extended material world, they must somehow be material. So where are they are? What are they? Where are they stored? How can they affect everything all over the universe? How can any material thing “know” what laws to obey and indeed how to obey them? Where did these laws come from? Where were they before the Big Bang? In fact, how can laws exist at all? Why shouldn’t the material world be a completely random, lawless place?

Everything in the material world decays and runs down, but not the laws themselves which always stay the same, hence are of a totally different and alien kind from the rest of the material world. Why are they immune to change when nothing is? No materialist has ever accounted for the laws of matter. Scientists talk of the heat death of the universe being caused by entropy and the Second law of Thermodynamics, but of course the Second Law of Thermodynamics is not itself subject to any decay and heat death i.e. laws are of a wholly category from what they control. Why?

Isn't it quite interesting that we were able to observe specific patterns (and record them with mathematics)? And, that these equations hold true anywhere in the universe? F = Gm1m2/r^2 holds constant for any two bodies, anywhere in the universe. Why is it that there is an element occurring naturally for each electronic configuration? Why is there a pattern to their properties? Why do subatomic particles exhibit some form of 'awareness'- behaving differently when they are observed? I don't know how materialists find it easy to dismiss this as mere 'coincidence'. What exactly is responsible for maintaining order in our world?

I'm not making a case for 'intelligent design' as Abrahamic religions call it. The universe is imperfect- its not optimal (for humans, anyway), and if it had been formed any other way, we'd learn to live with it. Just like the analogy of a puddle. A crater in the ground wasn't designed to accommodate a puddle of water when it rains. It makes no sense some 'perfect' God created this imperfect universe.

But, imperfection does NOT mean disorder/randomness.

I only identify with the term pantheism, because we like to give everything a name, but I really haven't been convinced about the truth of this universe. I might never find it out, but that's not the most important thing to me. What I'm fully convinced of, however, is that existence isn't limited to this material, 3-dimensional world.

hopefulLandlord:


If there's only one, what makes you conclude its designed if you have no idea what an undesigned one would/should look like?

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Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by iniadewumi: 4:01pm On Feb 08, 2018
butterflyl1on:


God is not impossible to observe. The required parameters needed to observe him simply does not agree with scientific principles. Get the right parameters down and you are good to go same way for every scientific observation there are scientific parameters that must be met.

You can call it quid pro quo (something for something).

Our observable universe has been deduced scientifically as having a beginning and this agrees with the scriptures in Genesis which began with the words "IN THE BEGINNING".

both science and scripture agree to this.

I believe based on what you said here, you would love a doctor checking you as a patient of cancer, or let's say leprosy to tweak his scientifically proven methods of observation, to add those postulated by the old testament... such as killing a bird and dipping a live one into the blood and sprinkling the blood on your skin for treatment?

1 Like

Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by Lionbutterfly: 4:12pm On Feb 08, 2018
iniadewumi:


I believe based on what you said here, you would love a doctor checking you as a patient of cancer, or let's say leprosy to tweak his scientifically proven methods of observation, to add those postulated by the old testament... such as killing a bird and dipping a live one into the blood and sprinkling the blood on your skin for treatment?

Let me post my comment again because it is obvious you do not understand it.


The required parameters needed to observe him simply does not agree with scientific principles. Get the right parameters down and you are good to go same way for every scientific observation there are scientific parameters that must be met. You can call it quid pro quo (something for something).

Our observable universe has been deduced scientifically as having a beginning and this agrees with the scriptures in Genesis which began with the words "IN THE BEGINNING".

both science and scripture agree to this.

Read that again for clearer understanding and amend your post especially since you saw where I wrote

The required parameters needed to observe him simply does not agree with scientific principles
Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by hopefulLandlord: 4:13pm On Feb 08, 2018
AnonyNymous:
I like the idea of pantheism, and I think God is everything and everyone. We were all a part of the big bang. I reject the atheist/materialist stance that our world was created by random chance. There is order in our world. Here's an excerpt from the book I'm currently reading-



Isn't it quite interesting that we were able to observe specific patterns (and record them with mathematics)? And, that these equations hold true anywhere in the universe? F = Gm1m2/r^2 holds constant for any two bodies, anywhere in the universe. Why is it that there is an element occurring naturally for each electronic configuration? Why is there a pattern to their properties? Why do subatomic particles exhibit some form of 'awareness'- behaving differently when they are observed? I don't know how materialists find it easy to dismiss this as mere 'coincidence'. What exactly is responsible for maintaining order in our world?

I'm not making a case for 'intelligent design' as Abrahamic religions call it. The universe is imperfect- its not optimal (for humans, anyway), and if it had been formed any other way, we'd learn to live with it. Just like the analogy of a puddle. A crater in the ground wasn't designed to accommodate a puddle of water when it rains. It makes no sense some 'perfect' God created this imperfect universe.

But, imperfection does NOT mean disorder/randomness.

I only identify with the term pantheism, because we like to give everything a name, but I really haven't been convinced about the truth of this universe. I might never find it out, but that's not the most important thing to me. What I'm fully convinced of, however, is that existence isn't limited to this material, 3-dimensional world.


That's an interesting read

3 Likes 1 Share

Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by iniadewumi: 4:18pm On Feb 08, 2018
AnonyNymous:
I like the idea of pantheism, and I think God is everything and everyone. We were all a part of the big bang. I reject the atheist/materialist stance that our world was created by random chance. There is order in our world. Here's an excerpt from the book I'm currently reading-



Isn't it quite interesting that we were able to observe specific patterns (and record them with mathematics)? And, that these equations hold true anywhere in the universe? F = Gm1m2/r^2 holds constant for any two bodies, anywhere in the universe. Why is it that there is an element occurring naturally for each electronic configuration? Why is there a pattern to their properties? Why do subatomic particles exhibit some form of 'awareness'- behaving differently when they are observed? I don't know how materialists find it easy to dismiss this as mere 'coincidence'. What exactly is responsible for maintaining order in our world?

I'm not making a case for 'intelligent design' as Abrahamic religions call it. The universe is imperfect- its not optimal (for humans, anyway), and if it had been formed any other way, we'd learn to live with it. Just like the analogy of a puddle. A crater in the ground wasn't designed to accommodate a puddle of water when it rains. It makes no sense some 'perfect' God created this imperfect universe.

But, imperfection does NOT mean disorder/randomness.

I only identify with the term pantheism, because we like to give everything a name, but I really haven't been convinced about the truth of this universe. I might never find it out, but that's not the most important thing to me. What I'm fully convinced of, however, is that existence isn't limited to this material, 3-dimensional world.



Have you considered the fact that these laws act don't act independently? For example, your crater filling with a puddle of water... is as a result of the ability of condensed water to fall as rain? Remember, rain is evaporated water that could not escape earth's gravitational pull, or get enough heat to remain gaseous. And the absence or presence of temperature itself is as a result of the presence of an atmosphere in the first place (an atmosphere that allows water to exist as a gas, liquid or solid and remain a liquid in the right temperature) and the atmosphere itself being there in the first place is as a result of earth's gravitational pull. which holds gases like ozone or water vapor and Co2 to warm the planet enough to prevent evaporated water from escaping earth's gravitational pull.(without an atmosphere like ours, evaporated water will float into space and escape into the vacuum). Finally, water ends up in the puddle because it obeys the law of gravity that states that objects will get pulled to the centre of mass. The puddle is the lowest point on the surface (closest point to the centre of mass). The water didn't get there on its own, neither did gravity. The laws work together to allow it
Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by seunmsg(m): 4:24pm On Feb 08, 2018
Deism makes perfect sense as a stop gap believe. There is no absolute evidence that God exist or not. However, we are very sure that if God truly exist, he's definitely not in the characteristics of the theist God that most of us were exposed to from childhood. So, pending when theist and atheist can bring forward convincing evidence to support their different positions, it is better to go with what is logical, deism. Again, most deist are former theist who just can't take that final decision to become atheist due to so many reasons.

We all have a brain that if put to proper use, we can reason our ways out of any problem or situation instead of seeking miraculous easy way out that religion offers. So, deism makes a lot of sense.

2 Likes

Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by iniadewumi: 4:28pm On Feb 08, 2018
seunmsg:
Deism makes perfect sense as a stop gap believe. There is no absolute evidence that God exist or not. However, we are very sure that if God truly exist, he's definitely not in the characteristics of the theist God that most of us were exposed to from childhood. So, pending when theist and atheist can bring forward convincing evidence to support their different positions, it is better to go with what is logical, deism. Again, most deist are former theist who just can't take that final decision to become atheist due to so many reasons.

We all have a brain that if put to proper use, we can reason our ways out of any problem or situation instead of seeking miraculous easy way out that religion offers. So, deism makes a lot of sense.


You just said something about convincing evidence, but fail to provide any to back your claim that "...deism is the most logical stance
Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by urahara(m): 5:20pm On Feb 08, 2018
AnonyNymous:
I like the idea of pantheism, and I think God is everything and everyone. We were all a part of the big bang. I reject the atheist/materialist stance that our world was created by random chance. There is order in our world. Here's an excerpt from the book I'm currently reading-



Isn't it quite interesting that we were able to observe specific patterns (and record them with mathematics)? And, that these equations hold true anywhere in the universe? F = Gm1m2/r^2 holds constant for any two bodies, anywhere in the universe. Why is it that there is an element occurring naturally for each electronic configuration? Why is there a pattern to their properties? Why do subatomic particles exhibit some form of 'awareness'- behaving differently when they are observed? I don't know how materialists find it easy to dismiss this as mere 'coincidence'. What exactly is responsible for maintaining order in our world?

I'm not making a case for 'intelligent design' as Abrahamic religions call it. The universe is imperfect- its not optimal (for humans, anyway), and if it had been formed any other way, we'd learn to live with it. Just like the analogy of a puddle. A crater in the ground wasn't designed to accommodate a puddle of water when it rains. It makes no sense some 'perfect' God created this imperfect universe.

But, imperfection does NOT mean disorder/randomness.

I only identify with the term pantheism, because we like to give everything a name, but I really haven't been convinced about the truth of this universe. I might never find it out, but that's not the most important thing to me. What I'm fully convinced of, however, is that existence isn't limited to this material, 3-dimensional world.


Isn't calling the universe god not answering for question.

It's just like saying because love seems complex, and mysterious, then love is god
Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by urahara(m): 5:20pm On Feb 08, 2018
AnonyNymous:
I like the idea of pantheism, and I think God is everything and everyone. We were all a part of the big bang. I reject the atheist/materialist stance that our world was created by random chance. There is order in our world. Here's an excerpt from the book I'm currently reading-



Isn't it quite interesting that we were able to observe specific patterns (and record them with mathematics)? And, that these equations hold true anywhere in the universe? F = Gm1m2/r^2 holds constant for any two bodies, anywhere in the universe. Why is it that there is an element occurring naturally for each electronic configuration? Why is there a pattern to their properties? Why do subatomic particles exhibit some form of 'awareness'- behaving differently when they are observed? I don't know how materialists find it easy to dismiss this as mere 'coincidence'. What exactly is responsible for maintaining order in our world?

I'm not making a case for 'intelligent design' as Abrahamic religions call it. The universe is imperfect- its not optimal (for humans, anyway), and if it had been formed any other way, we'd learn to live with it. Just like the analogy of a puddle. A crater in the ground wasn't designed to accommodate a puddle of water when it rains. It makes no sense some 'perfect' God created this imperfect universe.

But, imperfection does NOT mean disorder/randomness.

I only identify with the term pantheism, because we like to give everything a name, but I really haven't been convinced about the truth of this universe. I might never find it out, but that's not the most important thing to me. What I'm fully convinced of, however, is that existence isn't limited to this material, 3-dimensional world.


P. S

This is the most reasonable comment I've read
Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by tillaman(m): 5:22pm On Feb 08, 2018
Talk about it
Seun:
Pls this thread is for deists.
Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by urahara(m): 5:23pm On Feb 08, 2018
iniadewumi:


Please don't kick the only source of entertainment

Lmao

It's just that the theists would start derailing this thread.

It's beat just to ignore them
Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by Nobody: 7:00pm On Feb 08, 2018
urahara:


Isn't calling the universe god not answering for question.

It's just like saying because love seems complex, and mysterious, then love is god
No, I only call the universe 'god' because it exhibits some form of awareness. Not because of its complexity or anything like that. By the word 'god' we're trying to define the origin of the universe and the progenitor of life. And I'm saying that the universe itself is its own origin, and is also the progenitor of life.

****I'm just flirting with the idea that the reason for this orderliness in existence could be because the whole universe is made up on one collective, intelligent, but imperfect consciousness.

1 Like

Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by Nobody: 7:01pm On Feb 08, 2018
urahara:


P. S

This is the most reasonable comment I've read
Well, thank you smiley

1 Like

Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by Nobody: 7:06pm On Feb 08, 2018
iniadewumi:



Have you considered the fact that these laws act don't act independently? For example, your crater filling with a puddle of water... is as a result of the ability of condensed water to fall as rain? Remember, rain is evaporated water that could not escape earth's gravitational pull, or get enough heat to remain gaseous. And the absence or presence of temperature itself is as a result of the presence of an atmosphere in the first place (an atmosphere that allows water to exist as a gas, liquid or solid and remain a liquid in the right temperature) and the atmosphere itself being there in the first place is as a result of earth's gravitational pull. which holds gases like ozone or water vapor and Co2 to warm the planet enough to prevent evaporated water from escaping earth's gravitational pull.(without an atmosphere like ours, evaporated water will float into space and escape into the vacuum). Finally, water ends up in the puddle because it obeys the law of gravity that states that objects will get pulled to the centre of mass. The puddle is the lowest point on the surface (closest point to the centre of mass). The water didn't get there on its own, neither did gravity. The laws work together to allow it
Yup, the laws don't act independently, and I agree with that completely. This is the puddle analogy I was referring too (that shatters the theistic 'intelligent design' idea)

This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!'

The laws work together. I was merely questioning the materialist view: why is there order in our universe? Why do laws that we've been able to recognise apply to every corner of existence? Why don't laws 'decay'? If this world was random, then we wouldn't be able to recognise consistent patterns and denote them mathematically. In fact, some math equations that were originally just abstract calculations (which seemed to be of no use to the real world) later found very impressive applications. Why does applied mathematics work so well with existence?

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Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by Nobody: 7:14pm On Feb 08, 2018
P.S @ urahara could you please edit out the 'deism' title of the thread? It seems to be giving the impression to some people that deists are the only non-religious believers in God
Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by Nobody: 7:20pm On Feb 08, 2018
seunmsg:
Deism makes perfect sense as a stop gap believe. There is no absolute evidence that God exist or not. However, we are very sure that if God truly exist, he's definitely not in the characteristics of the theist God that most of us were exposed to from childhood. So, pending when theist and atheist can bring forward convincing evidence to support their different positions, it is better to go with what is logical, deism. Again, most deist are former theist who just can't take that final decision to become atheist due to so many reasons.

We all have a brain that if put to proper use, we can reason our ways out of any problem or situation instead of seeking miraculous easy way out that religion offers. So, deism makes a lot of sense.
I disagree. Deism is the belief in a remote God, completely independent of our universe. Its still a very bold claim- there's absolutely no evidence for the existence of such. There's no logical explanation as to WHY such a God even exists. I only agree with the part that its for former theists religious people (Deism is still a form of theism) who just can't transit into atheists or anything else. They're so used to believing that there's someone out there, but they've started realising the bullshit in their religious books.

Pure agnosticism is more of a middle ground between theism and atheism to me. You know, "I have no idea what's out there and I'm not even sure its possible to know."
Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by urahara(m): 7:23pm On Feb 08, 2018
AnonyNymous:

No, I only call the universe 'god' because it exhibits some form of awareness. Not because of its complexity or anything like that. By the word 'god' we're trying to define the origin of the universe and the progenitor of life. And I'm saying that the universe itself is its own origin, and is also the progenitor of life.

****I'm just flirting with the idea that the reason for this orderliness in existence could be because the whole universe is made up on one collective, intelligent, but imperfect consciousness.

If I may ask, what do you mean by awareness?

P. S by some weird reason you are kind of making me like pantheism
Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by urahara(m): 7:25pm On Feb 08, 2018
AnonyNymous:

I disagree. Deism is the belief in a remote God, completely independent of our universe. Its still a very bold claim- there's absolutely no evidence for the existence of such. There's no logical explanation as to WHY such a God even exists. I only agree with the part that its for former theists religious people (Deism is still a form of theism) who just can't transit into atheists or anything else. They're so used to believing that there's someone out there, but they've started realising the bullshit in their religious books.

Pure agnosticism is more of a middle ground between theism and atheism to me. You know, "I have no idea what's out there and I'm not even sure its possible to know."

Eg.. Ebuka
Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by Nobody: 7:35pm On Feb 08, 2018
urahara:


If I may ask, what do you mean by awareness?

P. S by some weird reason you are kind of making me like pantheism
Look up the double slit experiment.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1YqgPAtzho

Why do quantum particles exhibit some form of awareness? Why do they behave differently when they are being watched? Why do they act like they know what's going on? The universe isn't "alive" by biological definition, but it is aware.
Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by Nobody: 7:43pm On Feb 08, 2018
urahara:


Eg.. Ebuka
Does he claim to be a Deist now
Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by urahara(m): 7:47pm On Feb 08, 2018
AnonyNymous:

Does he claim to be a Deist now

Not really.

But his actions say otherwise.

He usually advocates deism and praises it to the highest heavens.

He no longer has time to even argue for the Christian god.

He has totally given up because he knows that Yahweh is a fallacy.

4 Likes

Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by Nobody: 7:55pm On Feb 08, 2018
urahara:


Not really.

But his actions say otherwise.

He usually advocates deism and praises it to the highest heavens.

He no longer has time to even argue for the Christian god.

He has totally given up because he knows that Yahweh is a fallacy.
Ahahahaha grin grin

Nairaland actually helps a lot. In 2015 when I was in 200L,(still an undergraduate rn) that was when I 'woke up'. I've been on Nairaland since 2013 with another username and sometimes I cringe when I read my own posts, lmao. (I am NOT sharing my old username. grin) Once you taste the fruit of knowledge there's no turning back. If I say I didn't cry I'd be lying. I felt so betrayed. cry My process was somewhat sped up, though, because one of my parents is into one of these 'new age' movements, though the other is a Christian.

I love this place because you can read so many books and come slug it out and question your beliefs with others here.

But seriously. . the bible is so hard to defend. Harder than defending Buhari grin

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Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by urahara(m): 8:24pm On Feb 08, 2018
AnonyNymous:

Look up the double slit experiment.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1YqgPAtzho

Why do quantum particles exhibit some form of awareness? Why do they behave differently when they are being watched? Why do they act like they know what's going on? The universe isn't "alive" by biological definition, but it is aware.



No bro

The quantum particles aren't aware.

It's just that the devices that do the observation cause the quantum state to collapse
Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by Nobody: 8:29pm On Feb 08, 2018
urahara:


No bro

The quantum particles aren't aware.

It's just that the devices that do the observation cause the quantum state to collapse
Let me be sure of what you mean by the quantum state collapsing.
Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by OtemAtum: 8:31pm On Feb 08, 2018
adepeter2027:
I now understand why hopefulLandlord dodges some mentions
Nobody wants to associate with a thief, Samuel Ekwueme at that grin
Re: Non Religious Believers in god Come Here by vaxx: 8:38pm On Feb 08, 2018
hopefulLandlord:

you're saying the earth was perfect and the earthquakes, Tornadoes, cyclones, tsunami, act of god etc were caused by man?
yes i agree with him, human are responsible for natural disaster. The earth was perfect, earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes are natural event and not natural disaster, it has being happening over billions of years (i. e) before the arrival of modern man. the word natural disaster which denote imperfect is is coined by human. for his own center notion. i will call it anthropocentric position

The truth is that if there were no humans, there would be no disaster. The good side of this is that while it maybe impossible to stop earthquakes, God has provide us with the means in the same earth to prevent this disasters. . The roots of large trees can strengthen the ground and structure and even decrease the likelihood of sliding during earthquake occurrence . but these trees are taking away by human selfish interest.

ALL DISASTER ARE DUE TO HUMAN NEGLIGENCE.

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