urahara:


No bro

The quantum particles aren't aware.

It's just that the devices that do the observation cause the quantum state to collapse

I waited for your answer. . .but let me provide mine before I go to bed.

First off, what do we mean by collapse of a function? Let's go back to basic probability. Before an event occurs, there are some possible outcomes, right? But once the time for that event to occur is reached, the function collapses- meaning that one of the options is chosen.

Probability exists in everyday life. There are an infinite number of possibilities that'll happen in the next second. But once we get to that second, the function collapses. It has become NOW. Something has happened.

Now for the double slit experiment. It showed, basically, that matter can actually EXIST in both states at the same time. Its in the NOW, and its still a 'probability'- until it is observed. Once its observed, it has to collapse. It has to choose one. Does it want to be a particle, or a wave?

And what carries out the observation? Our consciousness. Reality is a function of our awareness Time doesn't "count" without consciousness. If time is defined as the duration of an event, what observed the event and 'felt' the interval between them? Nothing but our consciousness.

This supports the pantheistic idea that everything is just part of one big, collective consciousness. We have the part that does the observing, and the other part that exists because of the observing. Infinity, and Zero.

This is why I said the universe is 'aware'. Its not a dead, detached, body/mass, completely separate from us. It is us. It does what it does when we observe it. It acts in accordance with specific laws of science. It depends on our collective consciousness, to exist. And what does that make us? God.

vaxx:
yes i agree with him, human are responsible for natural disaster. The earth was perfect, earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes are natural event and not natural disaster, it has being happening over billions of years (i. e) before the arrival of modern man. the word natural disaster which denote imperfect is is coined by human. for his own center notion. i will call it anthropocentric position

The truth is that if there were no humans, there would be no disaster. The good side of this is that while it maybe impossible to stop earthquakes, God has provide us with the means in the same earth to prevent this disasters. . The roots of large trees can strengthen the ground and structure and even decrease the likelihood of sliding during earthquake occurrence . but these trees are taking away by human selfish interest.

ALL DISASTER ARE DUE TO HUMAN NEGLIGENCE.

These claims sort of discredit the all powerful nature of God and contradict the all loving nature of God.

DeSepiero:


These claims sort of discredit the all powerful nature of God and contradict the all loving nature of God.

FALSE. God created a fine universe that allow life to come into being, check out the distance of the earth to the sun....imagine if they were close or they are far apart.... what about the orbit of the moon ,the nature of matter and energy.... and lastly what about the very law of physics themselves... all these are pointing to a fine earth and a caring God. GOD has given us the mental capacity to solve the problem ourselves, but do we follow it no, instead we engage in selfish desire....

if you buy a car with 1O YEARS warranty and you do not follow the manual instruction of the car ...you just drive it the way you care and the car malfunction before the said 10 years ....do you think you can blame the manufacturer? my logic tell me you are to be blame.....

AnonyNymous:

I waited for your answer. . .but let me provide mine before I go to bed.

First off, what do we mean by collapse of a function? Let's go back to basic probability. Before an event occurs, there are some possible outcomes, right? But once the time for that event to occur is reached, the function collapses- meaning that one of the options is chosen.

Probability exists in everyday life. There are an infinite number of possibilities that'll happen in the next second. But once we get to that second, the function collapses. It has become NOW. Something has happened.

Now for the double slit experiment. It showed, basically, that matter can actually EXIST in both states at the same time. Its in the NOW, and its still a 'probability'- until it is observed. Once its observed, it has to collapse. It has to choose one. Does it want to be a particle, or a wave?

And what carries out the observation? Our consciousness. Reality is a function of our awareness Time doesn't "count" without consciousness. If time is defined as the duration of an event, what observed the event and 'felt' the interval between them? Nothing but our consciousness.

This supports the pantheistic idea that everything is just part of one big, collective consciousness. We have the part that does the observing, and the other part that exists because of the observing. Infinity, and Zero.

This is why I said the universe is 'aware'. Its not a dead, detached, body/mass, completely separate from us. It is us. It does what it does when we observe it. It acts in accordance with specific laws of science. It depends on our collective consciousness, to exist. And what does that make us? God.

Cc johnnydon22

vaxx:
yes i agree with him, human are responsible for natural disaster. The earth was perfect, earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes are natural event and not natural disaster, it has being happening over billions of years (i. e) before the arrival of modern man. the word natural disaster which denote imperfect is is coined by human. for his own center notion. i will call it anthropocentric position

The truth is that if there were no humans, there would be no disaster. The good side of this is that while it maybe impossible to stop earthquakes, God has provide us with the means in the same earth to prevent this disasters. . The roots of large trees can strengthen the ground and structure and even decrease the likelihood of sliding during earthquake occurrence . but these trees are taking away by human selfish interest.

ALL DISASTER ARE DUE TO HUMAN NEGLIGENCE.

Dafuq is wrong with you people? How do you stop earthquakes at the San Andreas fault? How do you stop a tropical wave that starts from around Africa and turns into an hurricane that hits south Texas? You wan jump inside? Did God provide ways to stop a Fault that slides in the ocean from turning into a tsunami??

Pick one side... it is either a natural disaster or not!!!

iniadewumi:



Dafuq is wrong with you people? How do you stop earthquakes at the San Andreas fault? How do you stop a tropical wave that starts from around Africa and turns into an hurricane that hits south Texas? You wan jump inside? Did God provide ways to stop a Fault that slides in the ocean from turning into a tsunami??

Pick one side... it is either a natural disaster or not!!!

must you guys insult before you make your point? do you even comprehend my post? do i claim earthquake can be stop? please stop jumping into argument for argument sake. there is measurement to prevent the effect on human. planting of giant trees holds back the earth from crumbling down the slope when earthquake occur. it is natural event.

i am sure you are aware people are still clogging rivers with garbage and destroying it with large patches from the forest. so if flooding and landslide occur now, you will still call it natural disaster.

you do not even know how tsunami occur.. tsunami occurs usually after major earthquakes or large landslides within the ocean. Waves will take some time to reach the coasts. GOD has provide mental capacity to weaken it. have you heard of air bubbles? construct a long pipe near shore. blow air which can be released in holes along its length the moment the wave arrives . that is just one of it anyway,

vaxx:
FALSE. God created a fine universe that allow life to come into being, check out the distance of the earth to the sun....imagine if they were close or they are far apart.... what about the orbit of the moon ,the nature of matter and energy.... and lastly what about the very law of physics themselves... all these are pointing to a fine earth and a caring God. GOD has given us the mental capacity to solve the problem ourselves, but do we follow it no, instead we engage in selfish desire....

if you buy a car with 1O YEARS warranty and you do not follow the manual instruction of the car ...you just drive it the way you care and the car malfunction before the said 10 years ....do you think you can blame the manufacturer? my logic tell me you are to be blame.....

If the all knowing God knew that our selfish desires will cause catastrophy on earth which results in human suffering, why did he create us (in his image/likeness) to have the ability to develop selfish desires? So that we'll eventually suffer?

DeSepiero:


If the all knowing God knew that our selfish desires will cause catastrophy on earth which results in human suffering, why did he create us (in his image/likeness) to have the ability to develop selfish desires? So that we'll eventually suffer?

i am not Christian , i do not subscribe to that teaching. GOD attribute is unknown , how can i know i am created in his own image when i have not physically see the image of GOD. what i have his only experience. I am sure you do not follow the analogy i presented.

vaxx:
i am not Christian , i do not subscribe to that teaching. GOD attribute is unknown , how can i know i am created in his own image when i have not physically see the image of GOD. what i have his only experience. I am sure you do not follow the analogy i presented.

If the all knowing God knew that our selfish desires will cause catastrophy on earth which results in human suffering, why did he create us to have the ability to develop selfish desires? So that we'll eventually suffer?

DeSepiero:


If the all knowing God knew that our selfish desires will cause catastrophy on earth which results in human suffering, why did he create us to have the ability to develop selfish desires? So that we'll eventually suffer?

re read my analogy . you should not be asking this question...

vaxx:
re read my analogy . you should not be asking this question...

You should attempt my question without responding to it with another question and analogy, howbeit, a faulty one.


God is believed to create the universe as well as humans.
The car manufacturer did not manufacture humans to drive the car, else, the manufacturer would manufacture humans to drive the car optimally for best results.

DeSepiero:


You should attempt my question without responding to it with another question and analogy, howbeit, a faulty one.


God is believed to create the universe as well as humans.
The car manufacturer did not manufacture humans to drive the car, else, the manufacturer would manufacture humans to drive the car optimally for best results.

i do not like repeating myself, the analogy simply answer your question.. i can not be spoon-feeding you. unless you tell me you do not understand it.

The car manufacturer manufacture the car with a manual right ? yours is to follow the instruction written on the manual .but if you failed to follow the instruction, what do you think will happen?

vaxx:
i do not like repeating myself, the analogy simply answer your question.. i can not be spoon-feeding you. unless you tell me you do not understand it.

The car manufacturer manufacture the car with a manual right ? yours is to follow the instruction written on the manual .but if you failed to follow the instruction, what do you think will happen?

All right!

vaxx:
must you guys insult before you make your point? do you even comprehend my post? do i claim earthquake can be stop? please stop jumping into argument for argument sake. there is measurement to prevent the effect on human. planting of giant trees holds back the earth from crumbling down the slope when earthquake occur. it is natural event.

i am sure you are aware people are still clogging rivers with garbage and destroying it with large patches from the forest. so if flooding and landslide occur now, you will still call it natural disaster.

you do not even know how tsunami occur.. tsunami occurs usually after major earthquakes or large landslides within the ocean. Waves will take some time to reach the coasts. GOD has provide mental capacity to weaken it. have you heard of air bubbles? construct a long pipe near shore. blow air which can be released in holes along its length the moment the wave arrives . that is just one of it anyway,

So God created natural disasters in a perfectly designed universe and then gave us the mental capacity to deal with these same natural disasters he created? Genius plan

iniadewumi:



So God created natural disasters in a perfectly designed universe and then gave us the mental capacity to deal with these same natural disasters he created? Genius plan

Yes it's a genius plan because what you call natural disasters are only seen as so when they affect man but to the planet it's a glorious occurrence.

These are ways what you call natural disasters benefit the planet.

1. earthquakes can fertilize the earth by helping us grow plants. (plants that man benefits from and depends on)

2. Earthquakes cause a shift in the arrangement of rock forms, mineral and ore deposits, and tectonic plates. As a result of these shifts, certain portions of earth may be sucked down into the ground, and other portions may be pushed up to the surface. Earthquakes commonly force mineral and metal-rich deposits close to or above the surface, making them easier to mine and collect (still beneficial to man)

3. Similarly, shifting plates may make fossil fuels, like petroleum and natural gas, easier to access. In fact, though earthquakes often occur naturally, human activity can encourage a seismic event. Drilling for fossil fuels can cause minor earthquakes. Terrestrial shifts and drilling have a delicate relationship, with one often dramatically affecting the other. An earthquake may make a previously unknown pocket of natural resources evident. (still beneficial to man)

4. Tectonic plate shifts and earthquakes are part of the planet's natural geologic cycle. Rock and soil are constantly pulled down into the molten layers of the planet as other molten materials move toward the surface, break through and harden. The planet constantly recycles itself to sustain life and adjust to changes on the surface. Earthquakes are one process that allows the planet to maintain a life-sustaining balance (still beneficial to man)

5. Tsunamis help re establish our eco system in an amazing way (still beneficial to man)

6. For volcanoes, after a volcanic eruption, the soil becomes rich due to the nutrients from the volcano. Precious stones and gems that were once deep within the earth are brought to the earth's surface and will contribute greatly to the economy of the country. Some valuable emissions from volcanoes are pumice, opal, gold, mercury, and metals. It also releases good chemicals into the atmosphere. Chemicals such as carbon dioxide and hydrogen that contributes to the water cycle. (still beneficial to man)

So you see that what you call disasters are not really so when looked at objectively. We cannot make an omelette without breaking a few eggs can we?

The best recycling system ever designed was the planet earth and anyone with a jot of intelligence would see that it does not just behave the way it does by chance but it behaves so deliberately for our sake because when the earth dies, so would the people on it. So the earth with all you call disasters are what is keeping you alive

cc vaxx

iniadewumi:



So God created natural disasters in a perfectly designed universe and then gave us the mental capacity to deal with these same natural disasters he created? Genius plan

why are you looking at it in one direction. ....the resources accumulated through the cost of natural event enrich the earth, it fertilize the soil which in turn good for agriculture and then benefit human beings, energy tap from the supernova in the past is still benefiting mankind. When you are fuelling your car, you are tapping the good of work of this natural event. . So because it floods when it rains, it should not rain again abi? Why are mankind not satisfy with anything? Is it because of sell-fish interest?. ...when proactive measure are not taking, that is when it becomes disaster... It is simply natural event..

It is left for you to use your mental capacity to annex the benefit and prevent the damages. Just like water, it can safe you , it can also kill you. You are not created to possess a robotic life.

urahara:


Cc johnnydon22

So, what do you think?

AnonyNymous:


And what carries out the observation? Our consciousness. Reality is a function of our awareness Time doesn't "count" without consciousness. If time is defined as the duration of an event, what observed the event and 'felt' the interval between them? Nothing but our consciousness.

This supports the pantheistic idea that everything is just part of one big, collective consciousness. We have the part that does the observing, and the other part that exists because of the observing. Infinity, and Zero.

This is why I said the universe is 'aware'. Its not a dead, detached, body/mass, completely separate from us. It is us. It does what it does when we observe it. It acts in accordance with specific laws of science. It depends on our collective consciousness, to exist. And what does that make us? God.

Conscious as a cause of wave function collapse is merely just an interpretation. There are many other interpretations of the measurement problem.

In summary, the consciousness ish has no scientific basis.

It's just like the one electron universe theory.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretations_of_quantum_mechanics

urahara:
What are your reasons for believing in god?

because for an atheist like you to start WASTING HIS TIME ENERGY on something that's a scam to him is alarming .....

if we are to check this out in a more sensible way..... if god is a scam no one loses in ever believing in him..

so my surprise is that,,,,, if you are wasting Time and energy on something which is a scam

then there must be something working against nature...

since naturally even animals will engage in something profitable.... only mad men live more important issues to settle trifles

I know you aren't mad... but alas you defy nature

AND also even you atheists can't give solace to us in that .....

1) do you want to help us.... write a comprehensive article

2) I heard about the big bang yet even scientist dare not say That the big bang occurred out of nothing.... they said it started from "matter" or so.....

yet they acknowledge that something must beget or bring forth something......
although they are depraved to have given the glory to "matter".....

that's why no one is with excuse

the Christians acknowledge a Creator
the scientist acknowledge "matter".....

urahara:


Conscious as a cause of wave function collapse is merely just an interpretation.

Not disputing that. I never presented my position as absolute fact. Nobody has absolute factual knowledge of the universe. If we did, except for the stupid Abrahamists, religion probably wouldn't exist.

In summary, the consciousness ish has no scientific basis.

Does that make sense to you, the statement above? A hypothesis drawn from observation of a phenomena has no scientific basis? Its just like saying The Evolution Theory has no scientific basis, since it can't be definitively proven.

Before clicking on your link, I didn't even know that others had thought the same way I did, and there's a name for this somewhat pantheistic idea- the 'Participatory Anthropic Principle', formulated by some 'John Archibald Wheeler'- and his position has been elaborated upon by many other physicists. I only subscribe to this theory because when you combine science and philosophy, its the most plausible (out of many) in my opinion. I have given you a background of my thought process that led me to this hypothesis in the very first post I made on this thread.

We're having a discussion, not an argument, so if there is any part where I haven't presented myself clearly enough, bring it to my attention and let me clarify exactly what I mean.

adepeter2027:

Like serious? One universe? Have you have of multiverse?

you making a claim that ya existence connotes design but what can you say about earthquake, tsunamis and etc - do these point to design?

Anyways, can you pls tell us how an undesigned universe looks like?

Was your phone designed?
Does it malfunction?
Was nairaland designed?
Does it have glitches?
I think one mistake atheists make is that they are often trapped in their religious pasts when they make arguments.
Design is not the same thing as perfection.