So as not to derail the other thread from discussing its specific issue - to wit - the deliberate disemination of falsehood by Yahweh, I am interested in looking also at some of the other interesting attributes of this deity.

A key one is extreme brutality.

Genocide, and brutal injunctions to stoning to death in odd circumstances.

Start with Genocidal Commands -

Wikipedia -

Deuteronomy 7 is notable because it contains one of the most overt instances of God ordering the Israelites to commit genocide against neighboring societies.

1. When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations -- the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you --

2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons,

4 for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you.

5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. (Deut 7.1-5)

However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them -- the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites -- as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God. (Deut 20.16ff)

Later Yahweh admonishes the Israelites for not killing each and every inhabitant in these lands.

And your point is?

The guy is absolutely notorious.

We need to ask, as a follow on to the OP's questions in the thread about the lies, if the ontology of the Jewish Deity is something that rational people should be proud to be associated with.

It is ridiculous for example, the amount of matters (some of them quite petty)[/b]for which [b]Yahweh prescribes death by stoning -

1. For touching Mount Sinai  Exodus 19:13

2. For taking "accursed things"  Joshua 7:1-26 

3. For cursing or blaspheming  Leviticus 24:16 

4. For adultery (including urban despoil victims who fail to scream loud enough)  Deuteronomy 22:23-24 

5. For animals (like an ox that gores a human)  Exodus 21:28 

6. For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night  Deuteronomy 22:13-21

7. For worshipping other gods  Deuteronomy 17:2-5 

8. For preaching the wrong religion  Deuteronomy 13:5-10 

9. For disobeying parents  Deuteronomy 21:18-21 

10. For witches and wizards  Leviticus 20:27 

11. For giving your children to Molech  Leviticus 20:2 

12. For breaking the Sabbath  Numbers 15:32-56 

13. For cursing the king  1 Kings 21:10 

Does this not reek of a barbaric pagan deity issuing extremist injunctions?

What did you expect?

Yaweh was very likely based upon the Egyptian god Seth - the Hyksos people were expelled at the same time as the proto-Hebrews' "exodus" so they were probably one and the same. Both Seth and Yaweh were storm gods who were also gods of the desert and gods of high places.
The other similarities between the gods are striking. The Bible itself refers to the slaying by Moses of people making golden calves - the Apsis Bull - the arch enemy of Seth.
If Seth did morph into Yaweh then it's no suprise that his followers commited such acts.

Ironically, Seth seems to have been the basis for the Christian Satan.

Judaism

Wikipedia

In the eyes of some, some of the violent actions of the Israelites in the times of the Old Testament were fanatical in nature. Steffen describes the Holy War waged by the Israelites, along with the God of the Old Testament, Yahweh. He describes this "divinely sanctioned use of force and violence", or herem, saying:

In the herem, Yahweh seeks general destruction, as in the conquest of Canaan (Josh. 6:17-18), or even total annihilation, as in God's command to King Saul to include in the slaughter of Israel's enemies ‘man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey' (1 Sam. 15:3; 22:19). [28]

As Steffen says, this war bordered on omnicide.[29] The Israelites dealt with neighboring cities in a way that some would deem fanatical also. Paul N. Anderson says that "nearby cities were to be destroyed completely. . . .If they are not, they will corrupt the Israelites with their religion and detestable practices and will cause Israel to fall away from God." [30] In addition, he mentions that the people were told to obey Yahweh's commands completely, and, for the most part, the people obeyed. The only king that defied Yahweh during the Holy War was Saul, who preserved the flocks of the people the Israelites attacked because he didn't see a point in wasting them. [31] This, as the scriptures say, angered Yahweh, thus proving, in Steffen's eyes, that Yahweh demanded absolute obedience from his chosen people.

I still don't understand what your point is.

If it's to prove that Christianity is a failure because the early god of the OT was "evil" in Bible passages, it's not a very good argument. True, literalists will have a lot of explaining to do, but for the majority of Christians, the realisation that the OT is a book of politics regarding a people who were forced out of one land and who had to find a new home by way of warfare, means that you're only treading water.

Instead of just hitting us with passages that anyone can Google, what about giving us your interpretation?

**Here we go again. Does everything fly over you people's heads?**


Parts you intentionally ignored:



4 If you do, those people will lead your descendants to worship other gods and to turn their backs on the LORD. That will make him very angry, and he will quickly destroy Israel.

5 So when you conquer these nations, tear down the altars where they worship their gods. Break up their sacred stones, cut down the poles that they use in worshiping the goddess Asherah, and throw their idols in the fire.



10 But if you turn against the LORD, he will quickly destroy you

25 After you conquer a nation, burn their idols. Don't get trapped into wanting the silver or gold on an idol. Even the metal on an idol is disgusting to the LORD, 26so destroy it. If you bring it home with you, both you and your house will be destroyed.


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%207&version=CEV

@ Bastage - well said.

The point of this thread is three-fold.

 1. Cultural: The wholesale adoption  of foreign cultures and religions may not always be well-advised if one considers the origin and history of such adopted worldviews. In this regard it is my view that the natural cultural and spiritual development of a people is retarded as such people would otherwise have progressed along a steady line towards defining for themselves that which is spiritually apt for them.

This is doubtless the path that creates social pride and dignity for a race of people. In this regard I may cite the development of Eastern thought in the form of Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and Shinto - an I can easily conclude that these worldviews represent a better developed outlook than that espoused by the average African for the simple reason that we did not take the time to develop our own spiritual philosophies and nourish them to full maturity.

 2. Historical: The negative history surrounding the evolution of Yahweh is a valuable insight into human nature. It shows us exactly how human beings are able to create dieties and nourish them into being worshipped globally.

 3. Theological - Yahweh as defined in the old testament does not fit with any sound perception of the Uncaused Cause and Pinnacle of all existence which is defined as God; accordingly[b] he could NOT be God [/b] and this means certainly that the Judeo-Christian worldview might be seriously mis-footed.

Deep Sight:




Does this not reek of a barbaric pagan deity issuing extremist injunctions?

if you show yourself excessively wayward and hard headed, then why should you expect not to reap what you sow?

Doesnt your personal belief system involve karma?

In ATR, instant death and/or physical injury is what you get for transgression. Any comment on that? No yardsticks- everything is evil and everything is good- why not tackle that worldview before criticizing the one without which you wouldnt be typing today. You know better than Constantine, no doubt.

Deep Sight:



 1. Cultural: The wholesale adoption  of foreign cultures and religions may not always be well-advised if one considers the origin and history of such adopted worldviews.

Yes. But you're writing as if this is something that happened over-night. Although there are customs and traditions that may have been adopted in a short time-scale, we've got to realise that most of the major tenets took place over hundreds, if not thousands of years. To cap that, there was then an evolution and some adaptation - the NT being a case in point.

 2. Historical: [/b] The negative history surrounding the evolution of Yahweh is a valuable insight into human nature. It shows us exactly how human beings are able to create dieties and nourish them into being worshipped globally.

I don't dispute that statement for one minute. In fact, I'll expand on it and say that the evolution is still going on with an expansion of human knowledge and with cultural input.

 3. Theological - Yahweh as defined in the old testament does not fit with any sound perception of the Uncaused Cause and Pinnacle of all existence which is defined as God; accordingly[b] he could NOT be God [/b] and this means certainly that the Judeo-Christian worldview might be seriously mis-footed.

I'd disagree with the first part of the statement. Yaweh does personify the "one god" if taken in the context of the worldview of the Hebrews in the era in which the religion originally evolved.
As for the second part. No. I don't believe that Christianity is mis-footed as badly as you propose. Yes, the literalists cling to the outmoded beliefs but, in general, most Christians have evolved their way of thinking as has the religion itself. To a point I agree with you that Judaism is entrenched in dogma but even there, we see that the vast majority of it's practitioners are what we would call "secular jews" - those who participate in the religion but don't hold all of the dogmatic views contained in the OT or Talmud.

Regarding Eastern religion, you've got to realise that they too had their rocky patches. If you read the Indian epics, you will see that there was plenty of fighting and pillaging taking place and to this day there are major problems within Hinduism just as there are with the other religions. Taoism, Buddhism and Confusionism are not religions - they are philosophies. Even so, many have died in their name. Taoism in particular is not a pacifist philosophy -  those that state so are no different from those who say that Islam does not have a place for violence. It should also be noted that there is a lot of Eastern philosophy in Christianity - there was a cross-pollination from Greek philosophy which itself was riddled with the former.

Deepsight, this yahweh guy actually chased me away from the church and worse still, i find it hard to believe some people still see him as papa. This is a guy who wants children stoned to death for disobedience, struck uzziah dead for not wanting the ark to fall, connived with his adversary to punish job for not even sinning(what a game!) and so on. This same guy who had time to legislate against tattos in leviticus, se.x before marriage, some meat and so on slept off or folded his arms when hitler inflicted maximum damage on 6million of HIS OWN/FAVOURITE PEOPLE during the holocaust.
He is a sadist, a prolific abortionist(given the number of natural miscarriages), he is blood thirsty, jealous and power-centric.
The good news is that his profile fits that of his creators(desert-dwelling jews). This should further tell us that most ancient gods reflect the cultures of their inventors.
O ma she o. _{what a pity. . .}

^^enough whining.

it gets old.

tpia.:

^^enough whining.

it gets old.

What are you saying?

ilosiwaju:

Deepsight, this yahweh guy actually chased me away from the church and worse still, i find it hard to believe some people still see him as papa. This is a guy who wants children stoned to death for disobedience, struck uzziah dead for not wanting the ark to fall, connived with his adversary to punish job for not even sinning(what a game!) and so on. This same guy who had time to legislate against tattos in leviticus, se.x before marriage, some meat and so on slept off or folded his arms when hitler inflicted maximum damage on 6million of HIS OWN/FAVOURITE PEOPLE during the holocaust.
He is a sadist, a prolific abortionist(given the number of natural miscarriages), he is blood thirsty, jealous and power-centric.
The good news is that his profile fits that of his creators(desert-dwelling jews). This should further tell us that most ancient gods reflect the cultures of their inventors.
O ma she o. _{what a pity. . .}

It really should not surprise you that the dogmatist has nothing to say to rebutt these - as these are explicit contained in her scriptures.

Like you said it begs belief that people could subscribe to such notions of God.

After reading the profile of the bible god, this is the image that i always conjure up in my head in other to fit him,

Yahweh on his throne.

^^^ That or some other evil looking character from the world of the warcraft game. Another character i conjure up is the evil Sauron, from the LOTR saga.

If it's to prove that Christianity is a failure because the early god of the OT was "evil" in Bible passages, it's not a very good argument.

Quite right. Just because your notion of what God "is" or "should be" does not fit that which is in the Bible cannot constitute a valid argument on whether Yahweh is the one true God.

It's like saying i have a Father, whom i see as a very loving, kind, selfless man. But i also learnt that he is War General, in fact, a "war monger", given to order the stoning of people for trivial offences. He has committed unfathomable "Atrocities", and guilty of "Genocide". He has given orders to soldiers to kill the enemy, and their women & children, and their livestock. He has made people lie, so he can destroy them.
Subsequently, because of all this, he cannot be my "real" Father, because the the notions i ascribe to him do not fit the reality of what he is. There MUST be a mistake somewhere. I must have been mislead.

Whilst we can debate till eternity the morality of God's actions, This argument, in no way, has any bearing on whether he is God or not.

1. Cultural: The wholesale adoption  of foreign cultures and religions may not always be well-advised if one considers the origin and history of such adopted worldviews. In this regard it is my view that the natural cultural and spiritual development of a people is retarded as such people would otherwise have progressed along a steady line towards defining for themselves that which is spiritually apt for them.

Be clear. What culture has been adopted wholesale? And by what people? Bible is based in Africa. The current state of Israel and the Arabian Peninsula were once part of the African land mass. Science has concluded the Man came out of Africa. And how do we define what would be "spiritually apt" for a people? And since you have already chosen to disregard the worlds largest religion -  A  third of the world population have decided it is "spiritually apt" for them.

This is doubtless the path that creates social pride and dignity for a race of people. In this regard I may cite the development of Eastern thought in the form of Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and Shinto - an I can easily conclude that these worldviews represent a better developed outlook than that espoused by the average African for the simple reason that we did not take the time to develop our own spiritual philosophies and nourish them to full maturity.

Using the outlook espoused by your "average African" to judge the viability of a world religion is nonsensical. Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and Shinto cannot even be realistically described as religions. They are rather a set of teachings,practices and philosophies. Moreover, Christianity pre-dates any of them.

2. Historical: The negative history surrounding the evolution of Yahweh is a valuable insight into human nature. It shows us exactly how human beings are able to create dieties and nourish them into being worshipped globally.

And what exactly is this insight? That rather than Yahweh evolving, it was the peoples relationship with Him that evolved? Can you show us how human beings created Yahweh?

3. Theological - Yahweh as defined in the old testament does not fit with any sound perception of the Uncaused Cause and Pinnacle of all existence which is defined as God; accordingly he could NOT be God and this means certainly that the Judeo-Christian worldview might be seriously mis-footed.

This is laughable. Scientists, aware there is a gaping hole in their theories, attempt to use a scientific construct to explain a supernatural phenomena - and they are still tied up in knots over it. Why should a supernatural God fit what is essentially a cosmological and philosophical argument, made by men? And what perception of the Uncaused Cause exactly does Yawheh not fit?

This is a guy who wants children stoned to death for disobedience, struck uzziah dead for not wanting the ark to fall, connived with his adversary to punish job for not even sinning(what a game!) and so on.

Do learn your subject matter before arguing about them. It really does help.

This same guy who had time to legislate against tattos in leviticus, se.x before marriage, some meat and so on slept off or folded his arms when hitler inflicted maximum damage on 6million of HIS OWN/FAVOURITE PEOPLE during the holocaust.
He is a sadist, a prolific abortionist(given the number of natural miscarriages), he is blood thirsty, jealous and power-centric.

More juvenile philistinism and sciolism.

Deep Sight:

It really should not surprise you that the dogmatist has nothing to say to rebutt these - as these are explicit contained in her scriptures.

Like you said it begs belief that people could subscribe to such notions of God.

no need for name calling.


i dont abuse you over your own beliefs, no matter how weird or strange i find them.

try to return the favor unless you want to go the normal nl route which i'm no stranger to.

try to accept the fact that everybody cant have the same religion as you, no matter how much you wish it.

you cry over people not sharing your sexual mores, you cry over people not sharing your eschatology.


Grow up.

Romeo4real:

More juvenile philistinism and sciolism.

So this sham learning of mine is to impress who? You? Oh, am a philistine! Thanks, have your day cos i wont bite back for now. As for learning about the subject matter before arguing about them, explain what i need to learn and tell me what this subject matter is. Or are you just assembling words because i dont share your point of view?
If that is the case, then am afraid you are still following the largest trend on the religious section: IF I DONT AGREE WITH YOU, THEN YOU'RE NOT AS LEARNED AS I AM.
Grow up man!

tpia.:

Say that again to this romeo dude.!

This is probably the hardest of all arguments against YHWH.

My Opinion is as follows:

1. There is another form of life after death.
2. Life as we know it is infinitessimal (extremely short) when compared to life after death.
3. If ending life on earth (which is a very short spell) gives a chance for better life after death then it can be debated that God is justified to sanction killing an individual.
4. God sanctioned the killing of the cannanites et cetera because they were a civilization gone extremely bad. History shows that they did extremely terrible things.
It should also be noted that if the jews did not kill those people they would have been killed. It was actually a war situation - Kill or be killed!

5. (I know this sounds inhuman) Notice that when God talks about killing foreigners to the Isrealites, it is usually a quick death (by the sword) as can be surmised by the actions of samuel the prophet when he killed AGAG the king that saul spared.
6. I also believe that if someone believes that God has asked him to kill you, you are well within your rights to defend yourself because you cannot be sure that God actually asked the person to kill you! (before I'm labeled a jihadist!)
7. God did not (in my opinion) ask hitler to murder the jews even though He permitted it. Even though it was a very cruel act, from God's perspective (not hitler's) it was Justice. Remember that the jews asked that the blood of Jesus be upon them and their children when pilate declined to kill Jesus.
8. I do not support genocide in any way or any form of murder because I am human but genocide and other cruel acts are balancing out other cruel acts or sins to maintain Justice on the earth (in my opinion).
9. Genocide will always be bad from a human perspective but we cannot say the same from God's perspective.
10. This does not fully apply but as the creator of a device you are well within your rights to destroy that same device by any means you choose.

^^Straw man!
This yahwah of a god is a blood thirsty psycho!
*ssmh*
i think satan/devil will be called saint when compare side by side with this heartless blood thirsty nutjob. I beg to agree that st. Devil can even beg for mercy.

"THIS CHARACTER WILL NEVER BE MY GOD"

what baffle's me most is no any comment from the so called in house pastors but guess what change the topic to tithe and see more than day magic/miracle. . . . . . . . Kai! Osama bn yahwah!

@Rhino

I believe I have answered some of the questions that prompted people to conclude that YHWH is blood thirsty.
If you have any unanswered questions please post them.

^^ when did he appoints you as his mouth piece?
My answer is very clear and again have it for the second time incase you miss the first

Rhino.4dm:

^^Straw man!
This yahwah of a god is a blood thirsty psycho!
*ssmh*
i think satan/devil will be called saint when compare side by side with this heartless blood thirsty nutjob. I beg to agree that st. Devil can even beg for mercy.

"THIS CHARACTER WILL NEVER BE MY GOD"

what baffle's me most is no any comment from the so called in house pastors but guess what change the topic to tithe and see more than day magic/miracle. . . . . . . . Kai! Osama bn yahwah!

^^ when did he appoints you as his mouth piece?
My answer is very clear and again have it for the second time incase you miss the first

No problem sir!
I was just offering my 2 cents. It is up to the reader to go through the points I raised and make his/her conclusions.

@everyone
I hope I have answered the questions raised in this thread. Any other questions can be posted so we can try our best possible to give answers as much as YHWH will help us to.

Romeo4real said:

Quite right. Just because your notion of what God "is" or "should be" does not fit that which is in the Bible cannot constitute a valid argument on whether Yahweh is the one true God.

It's like saying i have a Father, whom i see as a very loving, kind, selfless man. But i also learnt that he is War General, in fact, a "war monger", given to order the stoning of people for trivial offences. He has committed unfathomable "Atrocities", and guilty of "Genocide". He has given orders to soldiers to kill the enemy, and their women & children, and their livestock. He has made people lie, so he can destroy them.
Subsequently, because of all this, he cannot be my "real" Father, because the the notions i ascribe to him do not fit the reality of what he is. There MUST be a mistake somewhere. I must have been mislead.

Whilst we can debate till eternity the morality of God's actions, This argument, in no way, has any bearing on whether he is God or not.

You're wrong.

If you know your father to be a compassionate, loving man, or even just a regular bloke, and then someone comes along with a book saying he was in fact a mass murderer who commanded the slaughter of children and women, the onus is on you to consider the new report with a pinch of salt (at the very least).

Certainly not thoughtless, wholesale acceptance driven by the callously cynical threat of damnation for dissent.

If the act of taking lives for the sake of giving a better life in the afterlife should be accepted, then human beings killing and murdering each other should also be seen as a positive thing, which is crazy! Are you creating these excuses because of the deity involved?

Let's just accept, bizarrely, that these acts of taking lives en masse are driven by compassion, why do they have to be done in such brutal fashions? Why dehumanize in order to be compassionate? These are just crazy arguements/excuses to begin with.

logic1:

This is probably the hardest of all arguments against YHWH.

My Opinion is as follows:

1. There is another form of life after death.
2. Life as we know it is infinitessimal (extremely short) when compared to life after death.
3. If ending life on earth (which is a very short spell) gives a chance for better life after death then it can be debated that God is justified to sanction killing an individual.
4. God sanctioned the killing of the cannanites et cetera because they were a civilization gone extremely bad. History shows that they did extremely terrible things.
It should also be noted that if the jews did not kill those people they would have been killed. It was actually a war situation - Kill or be killed!

5. (I know this sounds inhuman) Notice that when God talks about killing foreigners to the Isrealites, it is usually a quick death (by the sword) as can be surmised by the actions of samuel the prophet when he killed AGAG the king that saul spared.
6. I also believe that if someone believes that God has asked him to kill you, you are well within your rights to defend yourself because you cannot be sure that God actually asked the person to kill you! (before I'm labeled a jihadist!)
7. God did not (in my opinion) ask hitler to murder the jews even though He permitted it. Even though it was a very cruel act, from God's perspective (not hitler's) it was Justice. Remember that the jews asked that the blood of Jesus be upon them and their children when pilate declined to kill Jesus.
8. I do not support genocide in any way or any form of murder because I am human but genocide and other cruel acts are balancing out other cruel acts or sins to maintain Justice on the earth (in my opinion).
9. Genocide will always be bad from a human perspective but we cannot say the same from God's perspective.
10. This does not fully apply but as the creator of a device you are well within your rights to destroy that same device by any means you choose.

If the act of taking lives for the sake of giving a better life in the afterlife should be accepted, then we killing and murdering should also be seen as a positive thing, which is crazy! Are you creating these excuses because of the deity involved?

Let's just accept, bizarrely, that these acts of taking life are driven by compassion, why do they have to be done in such brutal fashion? Why dehumanise in order to be compassionate? These are just crazy excuses to begin with.

That God can do something does not give humans the right to do the same thing. If we are God's creation then it follows that He can do whatever He wishes with us (with the caveat that it has to be just). Humans on the other hand are on the same level therefore they do not have any right to kill.

Do you have a particular example where God ordered the jews to kill people in a brutal way? I do not think I have come across any such example

logic1:

That God can do something does not give humans the right to do the same thing. If we are God's creation then it follows that He can do whatever He wishes with us (with the caveat that it has to be just). Humans on the other hand are on the same level therefore they do not have any right to kill.

Brethren, this is just a statement that declares blatant acceptance of murderous tyranny. This is what you have just said, "Just because my tyrant maims, kills and destroys, does not mean that i have the right to criticize him, nor do i see him as evil. But if the tyrant happens to be somebody else's and does exactly the same atrocities, then he is worthy of my condemnations and damnations, simply because he is not my tyrant". This is just the heights of hypocrisy.

logic1:

Do you have a particular example where God ordered the jews to kill people in a brutal way? I do not think I have come across any such example

Have you read the OT pat of the bible? Or are you just feigning ignorance for convenience sake?

Brethren, this is just a statement that declares blatant acceptance of murderous tyranny. This is what you have just said, "Just because my tyrant maims, kills and destroys, does not mean that i have the right to criticize him, nor do i see him as evil. But if the tyrant happens to be somebody else's and does exactly the same atrocities, then he is worthy of my condemnations and damnations, simply because he is not my tyrant". This is just the heights of hypocrisy.

If God is on the same level as we are (i.e. a human being) then the above statement is true.
If God created us then He is not on the same level as we are and thus can do some things that we cannot, If you have a problem with this statement please point it out.