Mujtahida:

Sin to me is the hurt you do to me and I do to you as in the hurts, grievances, disappointments, harm, pain, injury that human beings cause to themselves and nature. I do not regard sin as flouting the commands of God. Noooo.

I think yours is an extreme simplistic way of looking at sin.

Sin just simply means a violation of the divine rule/command. Yes, hurting others is just an aspect of such violations...reckless living is another (e.g. consentual Fornication/Adultery between adults, consentual homosexuality, blasphemy against God etc)

Its just like one could be booked by the FRSC for offences (sin) like speed limit violations, dangerous driving, seat belt violations even though no one has been hurt by such actions.

shadeyinka:

I think yours is an extreme simplistic way of looking at sin.

Sin just simply means a violation of the divine rule/command. Yes, hurting others is just an aspect of such violations...reckless living is another (e.g. consentual Fornication/Adultery between adults, consentual homosexuality, blasphemy against God etc)

Its just like one could be booked by the FRSC for offences (sin) like speed limit violations, dangerous driving, seat belt violations even though no one has been hurt by such actions.

What you have written is your opinion. Simplistic you call it? Yes, nothing complicated about my outlook. It's simple and beautiful. Not the complicated superstructure of sin against God as written in a book. I know of no divine rule if by that you mean commands written in a book. No God has ever spoken to me and said 'Thou shall' or 'Thou shalt not'. Until then sin is what I do to you negatively and what you do to me negatively. Sin is the product of the actions of men, not the trespass against a so called Divine rule. Shikena

Mujtahida:

What you have written is your opinion. Simplistic you call it? Yes, nothing complicated about my outlook. It's simple and beautiful. Not the complicated superstructure of sin against God as written in a book. I know of no divine rule if by that you mean commands written in a book. No God has ever spoken to me and said 'Thou shall' or 'Thou shalt not'. Until then sin is what I do to you negatively and what you do to me negatively. Sin is the product of the actions of men, not the trespass against a so called Divine rule. Shikena

If that's the case, sin doesn't exist in your dictionary.

However, if you must use the word "sin", it means violation of divine rule.

Talking about ATR, breaking of Taboo is SIN with it's consequences. It doesn't have to do only with hurting others.

Some sins (taboos) in ATR may include not eating some kind of food, meat etc

FOLYKAZE:

Firstly, Abọ̀rìṣà are not Believers or have Faith. That is for the feeble mind. We rather seek Enlightenment and broaden knowledge. Maybe you should find out difference between believes and knowledge.

Knowledge breeds belief sir, for if i don't believe (have confidence) in what you stand for that it will work, i won't seek the knowledge.

Why will i seek to know what you do if i don't believe it will work for my benefit? To seek enlightenment is to make profit of a thing. It has to be because i need enhancement or to be outstanding in something or a view. Now, if i don't have CONFIDENCE which is Faith, which ia believe, in you who holds the key to that enlightenment, how will i come to you in this first place.

So, sir, you see that you who have confidence in Esu, believes he or it can help you in a way. You are a believer in Esu.

FOLYKAZE:

Secondly, where did you come about the question you have up there? Definitely not from me.

Oh Pardon me sir. I may have misunderstood this↓

FOLYKAZE:

After knowing about Esu, the decision of how it to their life is theirs.

More like Urea, people spend money to know how to use it for their own desire. It is either to make a nuclear weapon or fuel a nuclear reactor. That decision is theirs to take.

That was what you said sir. Pls clarify.

This thread has been hijacked by the Abrahamics despite OPs efforts

FOLYKAZE:

There is a law and legal lay down among the people in the society of Men.

There are indeed, but if a man feels he can get away from being accountable to men, the only court he shd fear is the indeterminate court of God, but if he also is made to believe that, there's indeed no evil per say, and no God who requires accountability from them, and no consequences for their actions, what do you think will become of such a man? He becomes an animal, just like we see our society gradually falling into that state.

FOLYKAZE:

Reformed Ogboni Frat was founded by an Anglican Reverend. Maybe to you he is not a true Christian. ROF is called Ogboni Onigbagbọ. This shows that it is purposely for Christianity.

You said 'Reformed Ogboni'. There was crude Ogboni before the the reformed right? Well, someone tried to.educate about the difference between the Reformed and the Main Ogboni. I see no difference at the end, because Motive is always the yardstick or drving force.

And, about the Anglican forming a frat. Hmmm. It would be good if this Anglican priest can say where he got his inspiration from to form a frat.

For who? Christians? What happened the the Church?

For what? What is the motive behind it. To what end? What do we as Christians stand to gain from the frat?

Going by tje frats activities, are they advancing the Kingdom of YHWH? How many evangelical crusades have they held? How many missionaries have they sent into lost nations? How many orphanages are they running?

For Jesus says we shd SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM. and in all we do or say, we do as unto the Lord. Are their activities in thw refoemed ogboni as unto the Lord?

Will Jesus say to the Anglican Priest on the last day 'Come in faith servant, you have done well, come in my rest?'.
[quote author=FOLYKAZE post=65847544]
Our leaders are been sworn into Office with Bible and Quran. We saw that they have even turned Alter in Churches to Political campaign ground. And they publicly align with Christian or Islamic faith by going to church regularly, paying tithe from stolen fund and almost metamorphosing CAN and MURIC into political party. With the churches here and there, has social vices reduced? Nope.

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
John:6:15
Pls sir, don't take this personal. No be quarrel.

Let's start with the Model of our Faith, Jesus. He never involved himself with the politics of His day, Why? because His Kingdom is not of this world.

If the alters have been turned to political centers then you shd know where the allegiance of those pastors lie.

Again, that is not to say, the Church is to shun them. No. They have a duty to pray and counsel them, but do not interfare.

Wicked King Ahab used Jehoshaphat to get counsel from a Prophet of God, he got it. The same thing happened with Jeremiah king Zedekiah.

Jesus no send anybody to invove in the politics of the world, they are on their own. So, don't put it on Him.

[quote author=FOLYKAZE post=65847544]
The Yoruba peple are been called Ọmọlúwàbí for a reason. The fact that we do not have guidance law written in some paper does not negate the truth that iwa rere is very important. A love or good character that eroded from fear of hell or damnation is not geneuine. True love and good character is when you act willingly, without coercion, to make the world a better place. Ìwà-pẹ̀lẹ́ lo jẹ omo Odùduwà lógún.

What or who is the source of this Love? And, what induses or engenders this true love you are talking about sir.

Going by what is being said in this thread, i do not see the essence of Love o. For, Love works better with Will Power and the freedom to choose between two options.

And, love works hand in hand with Justice. They are cojoined twins. You can't separate Love from Justice.

AND, IN THE YORUBA COSMOLOGY, as i have noticed from what you guys write here, there is no JUSTICE.

FOLYKAZE:

Please do not let me attack Christianity. Lets keep the discussion clean

This has nothing to do with Christianity. I only asked why the blames in the society is laid on the Church for the actions of men who work so hard to disobey the rules placed by the God of the Christians.

Yoruba mythology through ogboni, which is the leading guild for anyone who intends to be a politician today, has impreesed on them that there's no accountability for them when they die, hence, they do what they do without any guilt and expectation Justice. Why then is the blame going to the Church is the question i asked.


If you escape from Men, you won't escape from God.

cutemadridista, you can see your purpose on this thread has being hijacked, people are now fighting over superstition.....which i try so much to sanitize in the beginning of this thread ....

vaxx:
cutemadridista, you can see your purpose on this thread has being hijacked, people are now fighting over superstition.....which i try so much to sanitize in the beginning of this thread ....

Its a pity the thread degraded to the usual back and forth with dick measuring. arguments that I tried hard to avoid is now the order

You know what bro, give me links to reputable sites you have access to where I can educate myself on your religion

Emmanystone:

There are indeed, but if a man feels he can get away from being accountable to men, the only court he shd fear is the indeterminate court of God, but if he also is made to believe that, there's indeed no evil per say, and no God who requires accountability from them, and no consequences for their actions, what do you think will become of such a man? He becomes an animal, just like we see our society gradually falling into that state.

You said 'Reformed Ogboni'. There was crude Ogboni before the the reformed right? Well, someone tried to.educate about the difference between the Reformed and the Main Ogboni. I see no difference at the end, because Motive is always the yardstick or drving force.

And, about the Anglican forming a frat. Hmmm. It would be good if this Anglican priest can say where he got his inspiration from to form a frat.

For who? Christians? What happened the the Church?

For what? What is the motive behind it. To what end? What do we as Christians stand to gain from the frat?

Going by tje frats activities, are they advancing the Kingdom of YHWH? How many evangelical crusades have they held? How many missionaries have they sent into lost nations? How many orphanages are they running?

For Jesus says we shd SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM. and in all we do or say, we do as unto the Lord. Are their activities in thw refoemed ogboni as unto the Lord?

Will Jesus say to the Anglican Priest on the last day 'Come in faith servant, you have done well, come in my rest?'.

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
John:6:15
Pls sir, don't take this personal. No be quarrel.

Let's start with the Model of our Faith, Jesus. He never involved himself with the politics of His day, Why? because His Kingdom is not of this world.

If the alters have been turned to political centers then you shd know where the allegiance of those pastors lie.

Again, that is not to say, the Church is to shun them. No. They have a duty to pray and counsel them, but do not interfare.

Wicked King Ahab used Jehoshaphat to get counsel from a Prophet of God, he got it. The same thing happened with Jeremiah king Zedekiah.

Jesus no send anybody to invove in the politics of the world, they are on their own. So, don't put it on Him.

What or who is the source of this Love? And, what induses or engenders this true love you are talking about sir.

Going by what is being said in this thread, i do not see the essence of Love o. For, Love works better with Will Power and the freedom to choose between two options.

And, love works hand in hand with Justice. They are cojoined twins. You can't separate Love from Justice.

AND, IN THE YORUBA COSMOLOGY, as i have noticed from what you guys write here, there is no JUSTICE.

This has nothing to do with Christianity. I only asked why the blames in the society is laid on the Church for the actions of men who work so hard to disobey the rules placed by the God of the Christians.

Yoruba mythology through ogboni, which is the leading guild for anyone who intends to be a politician today, has impreesed on them that there's no accountability for them when they die, hence, they do what they do without any guilt and expectation Justice. Why then is the blame going to the Church is the question i asked.


If you escape from Men, you won't escape from God.

Ok. Stick to the sweet dead jew nailed on the cross. No come derail this thread.

Emmanystone:

Knowledge breeds belief sir, for if i don't believe (have confidence) in what you stand for that it will work, i won't seek the knowledge.

Why will i seek to know what you do if i don't believe it will work for my benefit? To seek enlightenment is to make profit of a thing. It has to be because i need enhancement or to be outstanding in something or a view. Now, if i don't have CONFIDENCE which is Faith, which ia believe, in you who holds the key to that enlightenment, how will i come to you in this first place.

So, sir, you see that you who have confidence in Esu, believes he or it can help you in a way. You are a believer in Esu.


Oh Pardon me sir. I may have misunderstood this↓

That was what you said sir. Pls clarify.

I already charged you to read about believe and knowledge. Google can help if you do not havs philosophical books. Thanks

FOLYKAZE:


I already charged you to read about believe and knowledge. Google can help if you do not havs philosophical books. Thanks

I have a mind of my own. I must not ask someone else about everything.

Going through the thread cuz I wasn't active yesterday, can someone explain to me how this thread turn to "Christianity vs ATR"?

I know Shadeyinka brought up some Christian terms but it still fit into a question so its welcome but seems the last 2 pages have been dick measuring contest on ATR and Christianity when the thread wasn't intended to be

FOLYKAZE:


Ok. Stick to the sweet dead jew nailed on the cross. No come derail this thread.

No, you brought all these sir. I only asked a simple question but you left it and vied into my faith.

shadeyinka:

A blood sacrifice is a symbolic representation of a seal on a bond between the spirit and the one making the sacrifice.

Just like the life of whatever is sacrificed cannot come back, the bond should remain. Its more akin to the red wax seal used on important documents.

The only problem with such blood bonds is that one doesn't get to know the full extent of the conditions of the blood bond.

A higher sacrifice and some other conditions may be able to replace a lower sacrifice.

Yeah, this is basically what I tried to explain LOL! But I wonder why some things aren't explained? Are you saying this because you yourself don't know all of the conditions of a blood bond?

Emmanystone:

I have a mind of my own. I must ask someone else about everything.

When you are ready to learn, please use google

CuteMadridista:
Going through the thread cuz I wasn't active yesterday, can someone explain to me how this thread turn to "Christianity vs ATR"?

I know Shadeyinka brought up some Christian terms but it still fit into a question so its welcome but seems the last 2 pages have been dick measuring contest on ATR and Christianity when the thread wasn't intended to be

Unfortunately, this seems to be how almost all threads on subjects like this end up now on NL... it's pretty sad I must say. I am not and do not try to bash other faiths to come and seek knowledge about ones not like theirs, that's just fine. But when suddenly and oh so subtly they begin to start to try to get you to turn to their point of view, that's when I draw the line. If you want to seek knowledge, then by all means do so. Just try to not get others to suddenly say, "Oh my god, he/she is right... Christianity/Islam/Judaism/whatever is better than ATR, those wicked scum that practice such terrible terrible acts obviously will burn in Hell!"

Now, please note that I do not endorse the mocking/making fun of religions/spiritual beliefs, no matter what you believe in. But I swear I've seen some threads on here that really make me question the state of humanity.... all this fighting and arguing and all this poo just really needs to stop! It makes me sick......

CuteMadridista:
Going through the thread cuz I wasn't active yesterday, can someone explain to me how this thread turn to "Christianity vs ATR"?

I know Shadeyinka brought up some Christian terms but it still fit into a question so its welcome but seems the last 2 pages have been dick measuring contest on ATR and Christianity when the thread wasn't intended to be

I didn't intend to make it so. If my question was answered directly without attempts to trash my faith, then.... Continue, am out.

Emmanystone:

No, you brought all these sir. I only asked a simple question but you left it and vied into my faith.

I brought? I brought Esu into Christianity? Where nd when? All your post indicates you want to start a unnecessary debate. I don't have interest or maybe you can create a thread for the show and invite me.

Emmanystone:

I didn't intend to make it so. If my question was answered directly without attempts to trash my faith, then.... Continue, am out.

Yout intention here is very obvious. You wanted to throw puunches by forcing your faith into Isese.

Emmanystone:

Ogboni has it base in the Yoruba cosmology i guess? And, Ogboni has become a household name in Nigeria. Almost everyone outside the True Christians are into Ogboni. Now i'm getting it.

Why then do people blame Christianity for the state of the Nation, when our leaders are hardly even Church goers?

What has Ogboni have to do with Orisha system? How does True Christianity come in?

You even asked what if Abọ̀rìṣà died and found out hell is real. The intention is Christianity is right and Isese is wrong.

Create your own thread if you really want to talk about your faith. This is ATR not Abrahamic discussion thread.

#unfollow thread

FOLYKAZE:
#unfollow thread

LOL... I may do the same.....

FOLYKAZE:


Yout intention here is very obvious. You wanted to throw puunches by forcing your faith into Isese.



What has Ogboni have to do with Orisha system? How does True Christianity come in?

You even asked what if Abọ̀rìṣà died and found out hell is real. The intention is Christianity is right and Isese is wrong.

Create your own thread if you really want to talk about your faith. This is ATR not Abrahamic discussion thread.

Okay

Ok, here's the deal: let's not discourage anyone of whatever faith to just come on here and ask questions about ATR. However, as I mentioned previously, if they do begin to indirectly say that my religion is right and yours is wrong, we can just remind them that this thread is not one for religious fighting and backstabbing. CuteMadridista, tell 'em!

shadeyinka:

If that's the case, sin doesn't exist in your dictionary.

However, if you must use the word "sin", it means violation of divine rule.

Talking about ATR, breaking of Taboo is SIN with it's consequences. It doesn't have to do only with hurting others.

Some sins (taboos) in ATR may include not eating some kind of food, meat etc

Nobody has monopoly of the definition sin. There's nothing divine about sin. It's all a matter of social convenience. What is regarded as sin in India is most likely not sin in Nigeria. At the heart of all taboos are cultural imperatives which might not hold outside a specific cultural milieu. I have defined sin how I see it. Take it or leave it- that's my definition of sin. Finish
You have your own definition. Live by it.

Mujtahida:

Sin to me is the hurt you do to me and I do to you as in the hurts, grievances, disappointments, harm, pain, injury that human beings cause to themselves and nature. I do not regard sin as flouting the commands of God. Noooo.

well, that make sense.... but what if something that is bizarre and rare in human nature like necrophilia, pedophile , bestiality and the rest are declare taboo ? how will you see it? human by nature needs something more emotional to put them into check, so some unverified truth are introduce( the powerful people who introduce this things knows they are not true).... like hell fire, paradise and all this concept....even Yoruba ATR has its own, for example, if a person slept with a pregnant woman that is not his wife, calamity will befall the person and the person can only be successful again after the baby inside the pregnant woman start nursing her/his own baby, or any baby that drop from the back of her mother accidentally, the baby will experience the death of seven people, if it is she, her husband will die respectively until she reached the eight one and the same things goes to man...... when you look at this concept logically, you will realize they are set of proactive measure to maintain a stable society, it is not that what they mean will actually come to pass, but the instructions must come with a fearful statement so that people will honor it.as the saying goes in latin terms , Vox populi, vox Dei which means the voice of the people is the voice of God. in actual sense when you flout this rules , you are actually floating the commands of GOD. next question pls

vaxx:
well, that make sense.... but what if something that is bizarre and rare in human nature like necrophilia, pedophile , bestiality and the rest are declare taboo ? how will you see it? human by nature needs something more emotional to put them into check, so some unverified truth are introduce( the powerful people who introduce this things knows they are not true).... like hell fire, paradise and all this concept....even Yoruba ATR has its own, for example, if a person slept with a pregnant woman that is not his wife, calamity will befall the person and the person can only be successful again after the baby inside the pregnant woman start nursing her/his own baby, or any baby that drop from the back of her mother accidentally, the baby will experience the death of seven people, if it is she, her husband will die respectively until she reached the eight one and the same things goes to man...... when you look at this concept logically, you will realize they are set of proactive measure to maintain a stable society, it is not that what they mean will actually come to pass, but the instructions must come with a fearful statement so that people will honor it.as the saying goes in latin terms , Vox populi, vox Dei which means the voice of the people is the voice of God. in actual sense when you flout this rules , you are actually floating the commands of GOD. next question pls

I entirely agree with you cos you are being realistic. Sin is a control grid to keep people in check in society and that's why it varies from place to place. Your views are shot through and through with a matured and robust realism.

vaxx:
well, that make sense.... but what if something that is bizarre and rare in human nature like necrophilia, pedophile , bestiality and the rest are declare taboo ? how will you see it? human by nature needs something more emotional to put them into check, so some unverified truth are introduce( the powerful people who introduce this things knows they are not true).... like hell fire, paradise and all this concept....even Yoruba ATR has its own, for example, if a person slept with a pregnant woman that is not his wife, calamity will befall the person and the person can only be successful again after the baby inside the pregnant woman start nursing her/his own baby, or any baby that drop from the back of her mother accidentally, the baby will experience the death of seven people, if it is she, her husband will die respectively until she reached the eight one and the same things goes to man...... when you look at this concept logically, you will realize they are set of proactive measure to maintain a stable society, it is not that what they mean will actually come to pass, but the instructions must come with a fearful statement so that people will honor it.as the saying goes in latin terms , Vox populi, vox Dei which means the voice of the people is the voice of God. in actual sense when you flout this rules , you are actually floating the commands of GOD. next question pls

This makes a lot of sense Vaxx.

Mujtahida:

I entirely agree with you cos you are being realistic. Sin is a control grid to keep people in check in society and that's why it varies from place to place. Your views are shot through and through with a matured and robust realism.

whao , i am honored , thanks bro

FeelDeMusic:
Ok, here's the deal: let's not discourage anyone of whatever faith to just come on here and ask questions about ATR. However, as I mentioned previously, if they do begin to indirectly say that my religion is right and yours is wrong, we can just remind them that this thread is not one for religious fighting and backstabbing. CuteMadridista, tell 'em!

I agree, I'm active now anyways so derailing would be more controlled

CuteMadridista:


I agree, I'm active now anyways so derailing would be more controlled

Good, keep these folks in check, I will too.

vaxx:
well, that make sense.... but what if something that is bizarre and rare in human nature like necrophilia, pedophile , bestiality and the rest are declare taboo ? how will you see it? human by nature needs something more emotional to put them into check, so some unverified truth are introduce( the powerful people who introduce this things knows they are not true).... like hell fire, paradise and all this concept....even Yoruba ATR has its own, for example, if a person slept with a pregnant woman that is not his wife, calamity will befall the person and the person can only be successful again after the baby inside the pregnant woman start nursing her/his own baby, or any baby that drop from the back of her mother accidentally, the baby will experience the death of seven people, if it is she, her husband will die respectively until she reached the eight one and the same things goes to man...... when you look at this concept logically, you will realize they are set of proactive measure to maintain a stable society, it is not that what they mean will actually come to pass, but the instructions must come with a fearful statement so that people will honor it.as the saying goes in latin terms , Vox populi, vox Dei which means the voice of the people is the voice of God. in actual sense when you flout this rules , you are actually floating the commands of GOD. next question pls

Is ATR compatible with science?

Mujtahida:

Nobody has monopoly of the definition sin. There's nothing divine about sin. It's all a matter of social convenience. What is regarded as sin in India is most likely not sin in Nigeria. At the heart of all taboos are cultural imperatives which might not hold outside a specific cultural milieu. I have defined sin how I see it. Take it or leave it- that's my definition of sin. Finish
You have your own definition. Live by it.

Even in India as you have chosen to make it an example, eating or killing of a cow is a SIN against "Mother Cow". Its still a violation of the rule even though no one is hurt in the process.