Most times you hear Christian televangelists or pastors in churches proclaiming their god’s promise to cure the faithful of their ills, indeed we all hear Christian holy men of all denominations talking about the wonderful things their god will do for their flocks if the worship him and obey his words, We all here about things like protection, blessings, good health, long life, prosperity(you shall always be the head and never the tail) source of guidance so that they will always make the right choice etc. . . I wonder why christians aren’t better off than non-christians at all. After all, if you have the alleged creator of the universe in your corner who is alleged to be able to do all things promising you goodies like protection and what not, you should have a pretty sizable advantage over those who don’t, no?

But when I look at the condition of the faithful, they have just as many problems as the non-faithful. No evidence to show that they are any better than any body at all. I’ve never seen any indications, either anecdotal or objectively, which suggest that christians are healthier, better protected, happier, wealthier, live longer lives or in any way better off than the rest of us enemies of their god who are condemned already . I’ve never seen any evidence that believers recover from diseases faster than non believers, hit the lottery or have better lives than we infidels at all. And when disasters strike, christians get hit just as hard and suffer just as much as the heathens. Harm affects us all equally. . .

Even at funerals believers seem to grieve the loss of their loved ones as much as atheists do, even though they believe in some wonderful afterlife. I suppose the faithful think they’ll get their just rewards, and we’ll get our just punishment, in the next life, but it sure doesn’t look like they’re getting any special payoff in this life. So why do believers just keep talking about miracles, blessing and wonders ALL THE TIME, when there is absolutely NO evidence for any of these things. . . .Is there any evidence to show that christians that pray to their god for better protection from harm are better protected than we the infidels?. . . .

because there are over 4300 religions actively practiced on the planet and if there is a involved god how do we know which is the true religion? are there really thousands of gods or one or none? if there are thousands, which is most powerful? if only one who is correct or are all religions pointing to one god but calling him by different names? is there a god who is involved in his creation or does he merly watch us like a fishtank or are we alone?

i too have always wondered about this. . .n this promise of abundance, wealth, health etc is always the headlines of their sermons n ad posters

scandinavians are one of the most atheist n they sure do live far more better lives than your average holy, holy nigerian. u can bet, a 100% of saudi arabians are muslims but they still do got the rich, the poor, the successful n the unsuccefull, the sick n the healthy etc has nothing to do wit being christian, following christ, paying your tithe or none of all dat crap dat your nigerian pastor wants u to believe. . .they still got those the embassy issues visas to n those they refuse visa for whatever reason. . .but in naija people mount church pulpits to give testimony of the "wonderful work of the lord" when they get issued visa or win american visa lottery. *shake my head*

At least they are more superstitious.

+

@poster,
you really hit the nail on the head.

gradually people will come to realize that whatever religion or path that they are following does not matter. what matters is how much love they have been able to develop.

life is very just and it gives back to you what you give to it. that is the immutable law of God. if a christian does evil to his neighbour then evil will such a person reap. it does not matter how many prayers such a person prays in a day.

when i was in school one of my very good friend was an atheist. this guy was so full of love that people were always flocking around him and he will give you any help you need without hesitation. my room mate who was a christian will never lend me any of his study materials because i refused to convert to christianity.

this issue is what i have been trying to point out here in NL. God does not favour any group. every soul is equal in the sight of God. at the end of your journey on earth you will be judged based on your actions on earth and not based on your beliefs

mama-gee:

Poster. . .

Did you bother to add most to your thread?

Most what?

[size=13pt]<sup>mama-gee you always have something to cause confusion in every serious conversation about Christianity and that's very wrong my dear . honestly speaking i didn't mean to attack you either any Christian here but , please for goodness sake let's respect every thread and follow up with the issues concerning it with wisdom so that we can teach and learn from each other.

I have known this ever since Non- Christians are more and far better than the Christians , don't allow me to drop you proof because so many evidence are already exposed . Christians are big disgrace in the world . Grace come's to only those who are ready to utilize their brain and be a free thinker. those that won't give road to religion madness to brain wash their intelligence.</sup> [/size]

mama-gee:

Poster. . .

Did you bother to add most to your thread?

mama-geegoofy strikes again.

[size=13pt] ^{she has always find ways out.} [/size]

ilosiwaju:

mama-geegoofy strikes again.

@benodic
May you live long and skip over puddles with your great-great-great grandchildren. This is so spot-on.When will people know this?

Some guy gets a 'vision' to start a church. Not 'Sell your car and give the proceeds to a stranger dying in the hospital', or 'Haul butt to Sudan and do something about the hungry there'. No, it's always 'start a church'. He scrambles around and some scraggly gathering begins in some wooden silo. And Vision Guy gets the bargain of his life. His 'children in the lord' do all the work, completely free of charge. They clean his church. They usher in people. They pay for a better building for him. He tells them they're doing it for the Lord, and they feel all warm and wiggly inside. God remembered to tell him but forgot to tell them that is how He is 'served'. You won't catch Vision Guy dead at menial tasks. It's far beneath his status. He's a Man of God, which must mean they're somehow the Spawn of Satan. They spit-polish his church and he doesn't pay them a dime. No, they pay him. They give him the 'firstfruit' of their entire first salaries, and ten per cent of everything else they earn as long as they live. There's other stuff too. Like 'sowing seeds' and 'freewill offerings' and 'pledges'. That's how you earn God's blessing, he says. He issues them a 'we vs them' mentality and murmurs darkly about 'church adultery' so they don't take his money and free labour somewhere else. They not only spit-polish his church and 'Give to God till it hurts', they worship Vision Guy himself into the bargain. Not a bad living. Not bad at all.

I'm a Christian. God is real. But the silliness, not just in Christianity but almost all the major religions, is just stupefying. Especially the smug 'We're going to heaven but all y'all in other religions are going straight to hell'. God is above religion. Love God, love others, be a decent human being.

^^^^^

Excellent post. Makes you wonder how some of these so called ' men of god' sleep at night. It seems to me like they have no conscious. Maybe its because they truly believe that humans are born evil from original sin and just need to beg god for forgiveness after exploiting others, especially those most in need of comfort and support.

@benodic and mad max
i like your posts

Christians are overlooking this {thier only life} and are to busy thinking of the next imaginary life, while thier church pastors are firmly focussed on thier expensive rides private jets big mansions etc which has to be attained in this life.

Mama-gee to Mazaje:


Poster. . .

Did you bother to add most to your thread?

Mazaje at Mama-gee:


Most what?

@Mazaje

Excuse the arbitration

I am presuming Mama-gee would rather you posted the heading as "Why Aren’t MOST Christians Better Off Than Non-christians?"

I suppose, in her view, adding the adjective makes a whole lot of difference

nice post

@mazeje - there is a serious flaw in your argument. This flaw is to assume that most people who call or label themselves as "Christians" follow the teachings and precepts of Christ.  Afterall, that is what the terms "Christian" means.

What did Christ teach? Unconditional Love, Selflessness, Humility, Patience, Understanding, Tolerance and Forgiveness. Irrespective of your beliefs, these are universal concepts. Most people who call themselves Christians are selfish, vainglorious, judgemental, opinionated, defrauders, unforgiving, cheats, liars and thieves - So how can their lives be better than people who are just like them?

Christianity is not a badge. Christianity is not a "religion". Christianity is a lifestyle.

@mad max
thanks a lot for your support.

it feels good to know that to know that i am not alone in what i feel is the real issue.

let us learn to focus on love alone and leave the rest for God to judge.

i have tasted hatred and i have tasted love. and i know from experience that anytime i hate someone i feel a part of me dying and anytime i love someone i feel very much alive. so for me i have no choice, i have to love all life.

Your take on things is simply refreshing, benodic.

@Romeo4 real
I don't know if Moslems tithe. If so, mosques and churches ought to pay tax. Charities are tax exempt because of how their funds are disbursed. But churches hide under tax-exempt status, collect enormous amounts from their members, and start building 'the world's biggest auditorium' and other nonsense, all ego. They may do what they like with the stupidity tax they collect from poor church members, but they should pay tax. Don't lay it all on Christians, though. Christ didn't come to start a religion, but to point the way. We all need guidance, but unscrupulous people abuse our trust. We give it away cheaply to anyone who wears a pastoral or clerical tag. They're supposed to earn your trust like everyone else. Christ proved himself over and over to his disciples. But we take these people's word for everything they say, no evidence or proof is ever sought. Anyone who makes authoritative theological pronouncements to the public, be you ayatollah, religious author, Bishop, Imam, Pastor or pope, furnish evidence to back it up or shut the frak up.

Almost all religions are guilty of one thing or the other, not just Christianity. The human factor, maybe. The problem isn't religion itself, but organized religion. It's not a force for good. Organized religion gives you Crusades, The Inquisition, 'Christian Nations', 'Islamic Countries', gender abuse, entrenched irrationality, religious killing, 'Holy wars', jihads, fraud, suicide bombers and a 'we against them' divisive mentality. It expertly stokes primitive hatreds and brings out the worst instincts in people. You'll notice most of the organizations combating the problems in the world, some of which organized religion caused, are not religious establishments. Turn all government secular and let each individual practice his religion privately in his house. And don't let them indoctrinate others or tout it as 'Law' or 'above' secular Law like the stone-age morons, statutary rapists and psychotics in some Islamic countries have done. With organized religion, the harm is to others, the benefits to you. It's not worth it.

Christ didn't come to start a religion, but to point the way

This echoes my point.

The problem isn't religion itself, but organized religion. It's not a force for good. Organized religion gives you Crusades, The Inquisition, 'Christian Nations', 'Islamic Countries', gender abuse, entrenched irrationality, religious killing, 'Holy wars',  jihads, fraud, suicide bombers and a 'we against them' divisive mentality.

You are correct. The problem is to do with peoples interpretation of the "religion". It is used to justify, vindicate and shore up pre-existing opinions, stereotypes, prejudices and alignments.

Turn all government secular and let each individual practice his religion privately in his house. And don't let them indoctrinate others or tout it as 'Law' or 'above' secular Law like the stone-age morons, statutory rapists and psychotics in some Islamic countries have done

. I'm afraid i don't necessarily agree with you here. Most "Law" is based on religious and spiritual principles that are familiar to, and common in most spiritual teachings and philosophies - be it Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Hinduism, etc. Basically, it is not possible to fashion any Law that will be seen as just, with a moral compass without adhering to spiritual principles of some sort.

Therein lies the problem. Who decides what the template should be in a secular society? Who decides what religion, philosophy,or spiritual teachings  should underpin the Laws of a secular society?

It may have begun that way but things have come a long way since then. It seems the only religion that hasn't separated itself from state is Islam, and you can see the result. Retrogression. I'm not sure you need to be religious or spiritual to be moral or to craft a just system of laws. There are non-religious persons with better morals than religious ones. I heard a Nigerian state governor married a 13 year old, and the unapologetic slowpoke insists his Islamic religion is above the law. It's criminal behavior. One of many reasons no religion can be above secular law.

@ Romeonot4real

Romeonot4real:

@mazeje - there is a serious flaw in your argument. This flaw is to assume that most people who call or label themselves as "Christians" follow the teachings and precepts of Christ.  Afterall, that is what the terms "Christian" means.

Same tired old excuse again. . . .Who then are the christians?. . . .

What did Christ teach? Unconditional Love, Selflessness, Humility, Patience, Understanding, Tolerance and Forgiveness. Irrespective of your beliefs, these are universal concepts. Most people who call themselves Christians are selfish, vainglorious, judgemental, opinionated, defrauders, unforgiving, cheats, liars and thieves - So how can their lives be better than people who are just like them?

I have lived with christians that try to observes these laws in all they do yet they are NO better than any body around. . . .

Christianity is not a badge. Christianity is not a "religion". Christianity is a lifestyle.

Islam is also a life style, Hinduism is also a lifestyle. . . .Yet they are all religions, Christianity is just like them too, except if you want to keep lying to yourself. . . .Christianity remains a religion just like any other religion out there. . . .

Islam is also a life style, Hinduism is also a lifestyle. . . .Yet they are all religions, Christianity is just like them too, except if you want to keep lying to yourself. . . .Christianity remains a religion just like any other religion out there. . . .

i've always wondered what people who spout this ridiculous drivel put down when they fill out forms with a section for religion. "no religion" i guess.

now lets see what the dictionary definition of a religion is:

re·li·gion   /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Show Spelled[ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
–noun
1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7.religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8.Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.

christianity checks "correct" from definition 1-8

Religion doesn't matter when its comes faith,it depends on every human perspective & believe.

mazaje:

I have lived with christians that try to observes these laws in all they do yet they are NO better than any body around.

Is it fair to blame Christianity though? If you're going to bash one religion, bash them all. Financial prosperity has more to do with opportunities, hard work and talent than religious affiliation. You know that. If there are Christians who don't, they're not at fault, the dear things. They've merely been indoctrinated different. Indoctrination is a mental illness. You don't know you're ill till you've been cured.

mazaje:

Even at funerals believers seem to grieve the loss of their loved ones as much as atheists do, even though they believe in some wonderful afterlife.

I concede the possibility that there is no God, that it's all in my mind. I know there are different kinds of names for God, and our parochial society has long dubbed It, 'he'. I mean God in the sense of a Higher organism. Let me ask you this: I ask, knowing we may have unexplored abilities latent in our brains, that 500 grams of LSD produces a 'religious experience' where people 'see' gods and demons and others things passing strange, that we evolved as a species and once lived in trees, and that terrible things happen to good people. Does even the remotest possibility exist in your mind that there might be a God?

Mad_Max:

Is it fair to blame Christianity though? If you're going to bash one religion, bash them all. Financial prosperity has more to do with opportunities, hard work and talent than religious affiliation. You know that. If there are Christians who don't, they're not at fault, the dear things. They've merely been indoctrinated different. Indoctrination is a mental illness. You don't know you're ill till you've been cured.

I am not even blaming any body, Why should I ? I am only pointing out the fact that most christians I know feel special and make claims to some fatherly entity providing, helping and protecting them when there is absolutely  NO evidence what so ever to show for their claims. . . . .

I concede the possibility that there is no God, that it's all in my mind. I know there are different kinds of names for God, and our parochial society has long dubbed It, 'he'. I mean God in the sense of a Higher organism. Let me ask you this: I ask, knowing we may have unexplored abilities latent in our brains, that 500 grams of LSD produces a 'religious experience' where people 'see' gods and demons and others things passing strange, that we evolved as a species and once lived in trees, and that terrible things happen to good people. Does even the remotest possibility exist in your mind that there might be a God?

God is a loaded term. . . .Creator sounds possible. . . .As for all the Gods as described by all the religions? Hmmmm. . .I know non of those gods exists at all because all of them were created by men and their superstitions . .  .The evidence is everywhere. . . .

@Mazaje -

Same tired old excuse again. . . .Who then are the christians?. . . .

Just put your illogical hatred to one side for a minute and have a constructive argument - even if you choose to disagree. I defined exactly who a "Christian" is in my post. If the "Christians" you know do not fall under this definition, that does not make it wrong.

I have lived with Christians that try to observes these laws in all they do yet they are NO better than any body around. . . .

Read above. I don't know what you mean by "try to" , but you alluded in your earlier posts that the Christians you knew did not behave better than non-Christians.

Islam is also a life style, Hinduism is also a lifestyle. . . .Yet they are all religions, Christianity is just like them too, except if you want to keep lying to yourself. . . .Christianity remains a religion just like any other religion out there. . . .

Err, you are wrong here. The term "Religion" is a relatively new construct. I don't know about other faiths, but Christianity - the teachings and philosophies of Jesus Christ was originally a Discipline - A lifestyle, instructions, collections of teachings and philosophies; hence the word "Disciples" for its original adherents.
The term "Religion" came much later later to describe faiths, disciplines and spiritual teachings in general. The original latin root of the word - "religio" simply means reverence for God or the gods.

I'm on page 206 of The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Along with The Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan, it's one of the best books I've bought recently. Utterly magnificent, something everyone should read, so you can examine what you believe and why. Dawkins' argument is less about the possibility God exists as with anger at the (ludicrous) 'God' that's been pushed down people's throats for a millenia by Christians, and justified indignation at the danger and excesses of the religious mind. From his vantage point, the possibility 'God' exists is extremely remote.I can't believe how many things I agree with him about so far. Christians seem to have no problem with what the Jews did to other people in the OT, in the name of 'God'. If they read of Moslems doing something similar they get up on a high horse. I just came across some of the religious views of Tom Paine, and wish I could've met him. He was far, far, far ahead of his time. Stephen Hawking has his ideas of 'God', as does Einstein. They differ from a fundamentalist Christian or Moslem's ideas of God. We seem to create 'God' in our own image. I like the idea that you think there might be a creator, and wish you could elaborate on that. Evolution is illuminating and rightly humbling but has zero to do with whether we were created or not. It's like the bible; we find confirmation of all our prior convictions in it.

Romeo4real:

@Mazaje -
Just put your illogical hatred to one side for a minute and have a constructive argument - even if you choose to disagree. I defined exactly who a "Christian" is in my post. If the "Christians" you know do not fall under this definition, that does not make it wrong.

I know so many christians that fall under your definition of what christianity is and despite all their claims they are just like anybody else. . .No evidence what so ever to show that they are better protected from harm, or to show that they are happier or  better protected from disease and live longer than any other person. . . .

Read above. I don't know what you mean by "try to" , but you alluded in your earlier posts that the Christians you knew did not behave better than non-Christians.

The christians that I know who fall under your defination of what who a christian is make lots of the claims I talked about in the OP yet, No evidence at all to show that their claims are true. . . . .Reality says their claims are false. . . .And that was the point I was getting at. . .

Err, you are wrong here. The term "Religion" is a relatively new construct. I don't know about other faiths, but Christianity - the teachings and philosophies of Jesus Christ was originally a Discipline - A lifestyle, instructions, collections of teachings and philosophies; hence the word "Disciples" for its original adherents.
The term "Religion" came much later later to describe faiths, disciplines and spiritual teachings in general. The original latin root of the word - "religio" simply means reverence for God or the gods.

Christianity remains a religion. . . .Its a culture and a way of life which is nothing different from Islam, Taoism, Shintu and all the other religions out there, which are basically adhering to one way or life or the other. . . . Nothing separates christianity from them. . .Christianity remains a religion. . . .

Mad_Max:

I'm on page 206 of The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Along with The Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan, it's one of the best books I've bought recently. Utterly magnificent, something everyone should read, so you can examine what you believe and why. Dawkins' argument is less about the possibility God exists as with anger at the (ludicrous) 'God' that's been pushed down people's throats for a millenia by Christians, and justified indignation at the danger and excesses of the religious mind.  From his vantage point, the possibility 'God' exists is extremely remote.I can't believe how many things I agree with him about so far. Christians seem to have no problem with what the Jews did to other people in the OT, in the name of 'God'. If they read of Moslems doing something similar they get up on a high horse. I just came across some of the religious views of Tom Paine, and wish I could've met him. He was far, far, far ahead of his time. Stephen Hawking has his ideas of 'God', as does Einstein. They differ from a fundamentalist Christian or Moslem's ideas of God. We seem to create 'God' in our own image. I like the idea that you think there might be a creator, and wish you could elaborate on that. Evolution is illuminating and rightly humbling but has zero to do with whether we were created or not. It's like the bible; we find confirmation of all our prior convictions in it.

I have read some excerpts from the god delusion and I think its a great book. Haven't read the demon haunted world. I just don't get the double face religious people display towards the beliefs of others, What exactly is the difference between Allah and Yahweh of the OT? The apologist will spend all day lying through his teeth and trying to justify pure evil just because its from the "holy book" of its from god. The same apologist will not hesitate to condemn the act if its from another god or religion. . . . Religion is actually superficial IMO, with very little depth or substance behind it. There exists a wide variety of religious beliefs, but they share a common shallowness to them all. In our world, we have violent Muslim fanatics threatening to kill people that offend their (non-existent) deity, and then carrying out those threats. We have fundamentalist Christians that hold religious beliefs that are incredibly silly and poorly-justified. When they do have their own debates (like they do here most of the time) about the merits of various theologies or offshoot religions or sects within the religion, they refer to each other’s beliefs or doctrines that differs from theirs as absurd and silly, but never think about just how very similar their own beliefs are to them, and how absurd and silly they are as well.

There are certainly a lot of worthwhile religious debates to be had, and religious thought makes for some very interesting and sophisticated philosophical arguments about free will, the coherence or incoherence of the omni-attributes, etc. There is some intellectual depth that can be found in religion, generally when discussing those abstract concepts linked to it. Those discussions can be fun too. On the whole though, as religion is generally practiced, there is a whole lot less there than meets the eye. They are built on false premises and the wide variety of religious beliefs that exist among people are nothing more than the result of their personal biases, bigotries, coincidences, sloppy reasoning, and particular indoctrinations. Nothing about it is worthy of being taken seriously in any intellectual way IMO.

When it rains, it beats both saints and sinners.

Christians or any other religious group has no external protection from misfortune than anybody else.

I know so many christians that fall under your definition of what christianity is and despite all their claims they are just like anybody else. . .No evidence what so ever to show that they are better protected from harm, or to show that they are happier or  better protected from disease and live longer than any other person. . . .

I don't know the type of Christians you know, or what they have told you. The purpose of Christianity is not to "live longer", be "better protected from disease", or to be "happier" than any other person. There is nowhere in the Bible that alludes to these claims. And remember, anything a Christian asks for has to be within the will of God anyway. We have hashed this out before.

The christians that I know who fall under your definition of what who a christian is make lots of the claims I talked about in the OP yet, No evidence at all to show that their claims are true. . . . .Reality says their claims are false. . . .And that was the point I was getting at. . .

There are a miniscule number Christians who fall under my definition - and i doubt that you know them. Even I, don't claim to fall under that definition.

Christianity remains a religion. . . .Its a culture and a way of life which is nothing different from Islam, Taoism, Shintu and all the other religions out there, which are basically adhering to one way or life or the other. . . . Nothing separates christianity from them. . .Christianity remains a religion. . . .

It is not logical to cling to an assertion, when it has been shown to be incorrect. Christianity is a only religion - if you choose to accept a recent man made definition of a "religion".  Taoism and Shinto are not religions - under the definition of the term "Religion" that you subscribe to. You should know that.