This thread was inspired by another thread which seems to be a debate on whether atheism or Christianity is as a result of indoctrination.

https://www.nairaland.com/4136342/atheism-vs-christianity-which-one

As expected, many atheists affirmed with confidence that Christianity is as a result of indoctrination, while atheism is the neutral worldview. In the thread above. My brother Butterflyleo tried to explain that indoctrination simply means to teach and this means we are (indoctrinated) taught almost everything we know, including christianity, science and even atheism. The atheists rejected the dictionary meaning of indoctrination probably because it implicated science and atheism. It seemed like their opinions was based on the fact that indoctrination has to do with only beliefs or religion, and that atheism can't be as a result of indoctrination because its more like the default position.




Indeed, many atheists claim that atheism is the default position. In other words, they claim that when persons are born, they are naturally atheists; and that it is only through indoctrination that they become theists.
This claim is evident in almost all circles of atheism. Below are some of the replies of some atheists when asked if atheism is the default position:


1. Yes atheism is the default position
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2. Tabula rasa: This simply means blank state. While conceding that children are born with their brains blank, nothing in their brains, this atheist seems to suggest that a "lack of belief" is equal to nothing.
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3. Yes atheism is the default position: if you think otherwise, you're irrational.
www.nairaland.com/attachments/6941179_img20180407131022_jpega14b5c47cba1a581463b903595cfb3f7


4. Atheism cannot be taught
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Not all atheists are bigots though, a few of them give objective observation a chance. Below are some examples of such atheists in response to the same question:

5. Atheism is learnt
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6. Fantastic question
www.nairaland.com/attachments/6941188_img20180407131448_jpeg3b879eddbc71b0b3c546a44cf33d5151


7. Well, Just some honest atheist
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The claim that "atheism is the default position" is therefore nothing more than an unsubstantiated opinion upon which an atheist wants to build an argument that atheism is somehow valid or superior or natural. How does an atheist know that people are not hardwired to believe in God? How does an atheist know that children don't naturally believe in God and have to be taught not to believe in God? People believe in things without really understanding why, and often times they're surprised at what they do believe in naturally. So, does this not show a natural disposition to belief.

Atheism is not the default position, the default position is nothing. To be an atheist you must first become aware of the concept of gods to reject them either consciously or unconsciously. To disbelieve in something you must first acquire knowledge.


If we were to accept that atheism is the default position then we must also accept that anti-science is the default position of all humans, since no one is born with an innate knowledge of science but this too would be nonsense. Those who reject different forms of science must first learn of the science to reject it and be anti-science. Likewise an atheist must learn of the concept of God to disbelieve or reject his existence and to declare themselves as an atheist with an understanding of what that means to be atheist.

To quote the atheist Voltaire on this who himself was responding to this assertion that atheism was the default position centuries ago:

"Bayle says, in his "Thoughts on the Comets," that there are atheist peoples. The Caffres, the Hottentots, the Topinambous, and many other small nations, have no God: they neither deny nor affirm; they have never heard speak of Him; tell them that there is a God: they will believe it easily; tell them that everything happens through the nature of things; they will believe you equally. To claim that they are atheists is to make the same imputation as if one said they are anti-Cartesian; they are neither for nor against Descartes. They are real children; a child is neither atheist nor deist, he is nothing."

Atheism with not being the default position is then just like any other philosophical position: it too has its point to prove and it fails to do that. It is a position whose only recourse is to attempt to disprove theism which is something it has failed to do since its creation as a philosophical school of thought.


Meanwhile theism has many philosophical arguments on its own that it gains without having to attack a rival position. These arguments all being backed by not just observational reasoning but also scientific principles (i.e causality and the First Cause argument - that all things begun must have a cause and did not simply begin from nothing as an atheistic philosophy teaches). Atheism meanwhile is not backed by any observational reasoning or science and hinges desperately on attempting to disprove theism to prove itself but it simply cannot do that.

Atheists cite "lack of observable evidence" of God being physically observable as their argument for atheism being true not realizing the intellectual folly of this line of thought. The universe having an beginning and the finely tuned mathematical proprieties of the universe (something agreed upon by all physicists) both point to a creator as the common sense answer and indeed, science itself, although not by empirical evidence but statistical probability and observational evidence, would vindicate this.

Although we cannot see God physically, the fact that the universe exist is enough to tell us that he exists, the same way that a painting tells us that a painter existed who painted the picture. Atheists scoff, arguing the universe can simply "come from nothing" not needing a creator but the chance of mindless nothingness achieving the finely tuned proprieties behind the universe is simply impossible as too many variables would have to be met in an exact order, something that we have never seen achieved in nature by mindless force. While atheists argue that "given infinite time, monkeys randomly hitting keys on typewriters would replicate the entire works of Shakespeare" the logic behind this "infinite monkey theorem" fails to take into account the factor of organization. What would organize these works and who gave the monkeys typewriters in the first place? The infinite monkey theorem is a fantastical hypothesis and is not testable by science, further more the idea of a universe from nothing is contrary to both empirical science and simple logic.


Physics try to explainsl to us how the universe came into existence (The Big Bang theory and the initial singularity) but not where all matter originated from. Despite the best attempts of dishonest atheists to prove that "matter can originate from nothingness" this is something that has simply never been seen and is neither testable by scientific method or observational and so this idea is anti-scientific. Atheists cite examples of particles "appearing from nothing" out of the vacuum of space and by doing so prove that they are illiterate in physics, as the vacuum of space is not "nothingness" with it containing dark energy, neutrinos, gamma ways as well as numerous other elements and energies. What we observe with observational science and what philosophy tell us is that everything with a beginning must have a cause and that at one point, there had to be an eternal cause with no prior beginning. There cannot be an infinite regress of self-creating universes as other atheists argue as an infinite regress has no beginning and without an ultimate beginning, there is no initiation and therefore nothing would exist. At this point to either believe in something from nothing or an infinite regress would not just be having blind faith but to reject scientific law, observational evidence and logic. This is why atheism fails to be a coherent worldview whereas theism is agreeable with what is scientific, observable and philosophically reasonable.

Perhaps this is why so many atheists attack religion (being a whole entirely different subject as theism can and does exist apart from religion) and religious concepts as it makes them feel more secure over their atheist beliefs and ideologies and the fact that they have no real arguments for their atheism or any real arguments against theism.

A lot of christians here might not understand why atheists preach against religion with such devoutness and their mindless hatred of religion.

Here might be the reason why so many atheists on the internet are mindless trolls who relentlessly attack religion and religious people. Half of it is down to their own frustration of having no reasonable argument against theism whilst their position is continuously attacked. As a matter of fact, examining atheism in-depth, you'll find that atheists have no reasonable pro-atheist arguments or responses - only attacks and mockery of religious concepts but being unable to formulate an argument backed by reason, evidence or science against theism.

Unfortunately, their hatred of religion has blinded them, they claim to be free from religion but their hatred and obsession with religion reveals that they are still shackled to it. It has been bad experiences with religion or religious people that made them what they were but they are unable to see that extremism, not religion, is the real root of their problems and experiences.

Far from being the root of all evil, religion is simply a tool used by extremists to do bad and extremists will also use secular systems (indeed militant atheism in Soviet Russia did bad in the name of atheism and self-professed free-thinking) or politics for that. Most people realize that the system itself is not evil and that it is extremism which makes something bad. Should we abandon democracy and politics because of corruption in politics or political groups which are extremist? No because that does not represent what politics is just like religious extremists do not represent religion. However many of these internet atheists fail to realize this and so take it upon themselves to crusade against something they see to be evil. Some of these atheists are self-admitted former religious extremists and rather than dealing with the problem, they are now atheist extremists who are intolerant to any line of opposing thought and hold anyone who believes differently from themselves with contempt. This describes most of the modern day atheist movement and it should be no surprise that many historical atheist philosophers were misanthropes with a hatred of humanity and themselves.

Atheists attempt to dress their position up as scientific but when we examine it in-depth it as we have in this post, we find it to be contrary to not just scientific facts but reason itself. This I believe, the majority of atheists are somewhat consciously aware of which is why I believe they use red herrings and try to debate about religion rather than theism and atheism and why they attempt to shift the burden of proof when they claim "there is no god." They do these things because none can defend atheism without a recourse to blind faith in fantasies like the infinite monkey theorem or something from nothing which can equally be used by any theist to argue how God could exist in an infinite number of ways.




Credits: Carm.org
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Photo credits: Debate.org

Winner01, I must say that I'm impressed. For once in your life, you tried a balanced view on the subject matter. Thanks for that.


Imagine if we throw two babies in the jungle to grow up with animals like Tarzan. Those two babies would never grow up to be christian. They could be pagans or atheists but never christians or muslims or judaists.


Food for thought.

OP has failed totally in his failed attempts to prove that his God exist.

Winner01, if your God exist in reality you won't have to write meaningless, hopeless and unconvincing epistles on its behalf or in other to castigate atheists and atheism. He'll simply do that himself. The fact that you spend time defending, promoting and speaking on behalf of an alleged all mighty God that exists, can do all things and WANTS everybody to know about his existence (including atheist and other un-believers that belong to other religions or even other sects ) and engage him in a personal relationship shows that you are worshipping nothing but your own made up imaginations. That is the fact of the matter.

NO God that truly exist as you advartise will depend on you to make any case on its behalf. Only the God that exist inside your head and delusions will do that.

superhumanist:
Winner01, I must say that I'm impressed. For once in your life, you tried a balanced view on the subject matter. Thanks for that.


Imagine if we throw two babies in the jungle to grow up with animals like Tarzan. Those two babies would never grow up to be christian. They could be pagans or atheists but never christians or muslims or judaists.


Food for thought.

Point, everything is learnt. Good or Bad must be learnt else Tarzan might not think its too wrong to kill one or two of his babies for food in time of famine. This has happened very well in the history of humanity.

If two kids are thrown to the jungle away from civilization and all ideologies, sooner or later, one of them will look up to the sky and wonder what is out there.


One thing Tarzan will try to understand is that there is more to this world than meets the eye, and such Tarzan will try to reach for the supernatural by either creating his own religious practice or rites. He could worship the sun, moon, trees or just anything he deems superior, just like many African ancestors and several humans throughout history. We must however teach him like Jesus and his disciples did to many humans how he can reach accurately for the supernatural. Good things must be learnt, science must be learnt, Christianity as well as atheism too is also learnt.

In places where belief in God or the supernatural is forcefully taken from the masses, the masses will find something else to believe, like the government.

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Belief in the supernatural is innate to man. Its biological.

Dalam0n:
OP has failed totally in his failed attempts to prove that his God exist.

Winner01, if your God exist in reality you won't have to write meaningless, hopeless and unconvincing epistles on its behalf or in other to castigate atheists and atheism. He'll simply do that himself. The fact that you spend time defending, promoting and speaking on behalf of an alleged all mighty God that exists, can do all things and WANTS everybody to know about his existence (including atheist and other un-believers that belong to other religions or even other sects ) and engage him in a personal relationship shows that you are worshipping nothing but your own made up imaginations. That is the fact of the matter.

NO God that truly exist as you advartise will depend on you to make any case on its behalf. Only the God that exist inside your head and delusions will do that.

You've been saying this since 2016...I'm not here to debate the existence of God to you or anyone.

No one is here to argue with you on the subject of Gods existence. You are the one who dwells on a religious section all the days of your life, to mock and ridicule religious people. There are obvious reasons atheism has gained very low traction throughout all history of humanity.

winner01:
You've been saying this since 2016...I'm not here to debate the existence of God to you or anyone. There are obvious reasons atheism has gained very low traction throughout all history of humanity.

That's all you do here. A simple look at your post says all you do here is promote your God and tey to convince others that do not believe in his existence that he exist. You always try to explain his positions and even try to explain why he does certain things or let's somethings happen. You tell people that he loves them and other enticing things( you tey to toast people for your God) . You do that and many more. That's all you do here.

There is a reason why men have invented many different God ideas(your own God inclusive ) over the years and there are many reasons why these man made and invented God ideas have gained traction amongst many different groups and cultures over time.

Dalam0n:


That's all you do here. A simple look at your post says all you do here is promote your God and tey to convince others that do not believe in his existence that he exist. You always try to explain his positions and even try to explain why he does certain things or let's somethings happen. You tell people that he loves them and other enticing things( you tey to toast people for your God) . You do that and many more. That's all you do here.

There is a reason why men have invented many different God ideas(your own God inclusive ) over the years and there are many reasons why these man made and invented God ideas have gained traction amongst many different groups and cultures over time.

I have the right to come on a religion section and share my belief. What have you come here to do? Certainly not to spread atheism but to ridicule and mock Christians. It shows you are really struggling to find peace with the new you, seeing the way you do this devoutely.


Men have invented many God ideas because belief in God or the supernatural is innate, its biological. This might be enough proof to the unbiased that reality is not all there is. One way to try to know what version of the supernatural is factual is to first admit that machines humans can never self assemble and therefore must require a maker. Then you can continue to examine certain claims and evidences. The only thing you do is to mock and ridicule anything remotely christian. I think you need a therapist or something, you sound very hurt.

Here is the reason why you can never separate a belief in God or the supernatural from humanity:

Religion is a part of the human nature
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386533/Belief-religion-simply-universal-human-nature.html
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/12/religious-belief-is-human-nature-huge-new-study-claims/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8510711/Belief-in-God-is-part-of-human-nature-Oxford-study.html


Atheism is alien to humanity bro, no amount of anger or vituperation or vain philosophy or intellectual gymnastics or pseudoscience will change that.

winner01:
I have the right to come on a religion section and share my belief. What have you come here to do? Certainly not to spread atheism but to ridicule and mock Christians. It shows you are really struggling to find peace with the new you, seeing the way you do this devoutely.[

I have the right to come to the religion section and challenge your beliefs the way you do to others. I knew when all you do here is mock the muslims and let them know that your religion is superior to theirs.

You don't only share your beliefs you mock that of others and condemn them. Cry not when a taste of yir own medicine is given to you.

I am very much at peace with myself more than you are with yourself in fact. You believe and worship your imaginationsand the imaginations others have set out for you. The thing is you believe that those that do not accept your delusions are not at oece because they keep selling you the lies that only those that subcribe to your bubble of delusion are at peace with themselves.

Men have invented many God ideas because belief in God or the supernatural is innate, its biological. This might be enough proof to the unbiased that reality is not all there is. One way to try to know what version of the supernatural is factual is to first admit that machines humans can never self assemble and therefore must require a maker. Then you can continue to examine certain claims and evidences. The only thing you do is to mock and ridicule anything remotely christian. I think you need a therapist or something, you sound very hurt.

Here is the reason why you can never separate a belief in God or the supernatural from humanity:

Religion is a part of the human nature
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386533/Belief-religion-simply-universal-human-nature.html
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/12/religious-belief-is-human-nature-huge-new-study-claims/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8510711/Belief-in-God-is-part-of-human-nature-Oxford-study.html


Atheism is alien to humanity bro, no amount of anger or vituperation or vain philosophy or intellectual gymnastics or pseudoscience will change that.

Because something is natural to man doesn't make it true. Crying is natural, so is sexual urge, response to stimuli and hunger for example, all these things are natural to man.

Human imaginations is natural and a part of our nature and it is this imaginations that gave birth to all religions and Gods. Human beings had to invent God's for various reasons because the God hypothesis helped them in a variety of ways. The God hypothesis has been used to serve as an explanation to them, it has been used to ally their fears, used to make them obey and conform to society codes of conduct, used to give them a sense of identity and cohesion, used by the elites to consolidate power etc.

Because humans have used their imaginations to invent God for various reasons doesn't mean it's true, even if the ideas and imaginations are natural to men.

Dalam0n:


I have the right to come to the religion section and challenge your beliefs the way you do to others. I knew when all you do here is mock the muslims and let them know that your religion is superior to theirs.

I'm not here to challenge anyone's belief but to discuss Christianity with Christians, however when I saw that atheists derail almost every christian thread, I took it upon myself to expose some of the irrationality of atheism and its really been effective. For instance, I don't think any atheist on nairaland will ever claim that "religion has been the major cause of deaths in history". they know better.

I have Muslims as family members and why would I dwell on this section just to mock muslims, I can engage with a tensed spat with a Muslim but its simply about 2 theists searching for truth on the supernatural.
What the hell is your mission here? To mock daily and fervently the same God you claim not to believe in?

Get a life.

Dalam0n:


You don't only share your beliefs you mock that of others and condemn them. Cry not when a taste of yir own medicine is given to you.
.

Can you give me 10 instances of me mocking other beliefs and I'll easily give you 100 instances you mocking other peoples beliefs. You're free to give me instances of me mocking atheism if you think atheism is a belief .

I can engage with a Muslim on a religion section and of course it can get illogical, I do this with my cousins a lot. Once again, its between two theists seeking for answers on the supernatural?
What is an atheist looking for on a religion section day and night?

You last 100 posts have majorly been an attack on one Christian or the other and you think you're not sick in the head

Dalam0n:


I am very much at peace with myself more than you are with yourself in fact. You believe and worship your imaginationsand the imaginations others have set out for you. The thing is you believe that those that do not accept your delusions are not at oece because they keep selling you the lies that only those that subcribe to your bubble of delusion are at peace with themselves.

I really doubt that you're at peact with yourself. You seem like you're still feeling the shackles of your "indoctrination".

If I believe in imaginations, abeg shey na your imagination? What's really is your problem?

You really need some peace and calm in that mind of yours.
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Dalam0n:


Because something is natural to man doesn't make it true. Crying is natural, so is sexual urge, response to stimuli and hunger for example, all these things are natural to man..

Oga, Crying is True...Sexual Urge is True...Hunger is true...These are true, natural and real life occurrences and just like religion, you can't take it away from humanity.
As regards religion, people can be guided on the right path. This is why you will find me, a religious person, in a religious section.
I still don't know why an atheist will spend all his days, on a religion section, mocking religious people. You need to open your eyes and see what you're doing.

Dalam0n:


Human imaginations is natural and a part of our nature and it is this imaginations that gave birth to all religions and Gods. Human beings had to invent God's for various reasons because the God hypothesis helped them in a variety of ways. The God hypothesis has been used to serve as an explanation to them, it has been used to ally their fears, used to make them obey and conform to society codes of conduct, used to give them a sense of identity and cohesion, used by the elites to consolidate power etc..

www.nairaland.com/attachments/4144845_207068997868200653619168378957011832782n_jpegab6afb41b88c3a41eb8ec1160bbfdc57

If the atheists mind is free, why use the same damn arguments which has been severally parroted by atheist high priests?
If this what they told you about God?
Don't worry, majority of the world's population will continue to have commonsense.
Commonsense tells majority of humans on earth that if a 5mp Samsung camera has a creator, then the 574mp human eye must definitely have a Creator.

Such humans can now build on commonsense to examine claims and existential relevancies of individual religion in order to reach for the truth. This is why majority will continue to be religious.

So you see, you'll be angry for a long time

Dalam0n:


Because humans have used their imaginations to invent God for various reasons doesn't mean it's true, even if the ideas and imaginations are natural to men.

You say humans have used their imaginations to invent god but give no proof. When you make positive statements, you must give proof for such statements else you're just handwaving.

Religion is natural to humanity, atheism is alien to humanity. In the search for the true God, humanity will continue to be religious.

You'll really be angry for a long, long time.

winner01:
I'm not here to challenge anyone's belief but to discuss Christianity with Christians, however when I saw that atheists derail almost every christian thread, I took it upon myself to expose some of the irrationality of atheism and its really been effective. For instance, I don't think any atheist on nairaland will ever claim that "religion has been the major cause of deaths in history". they know better.

Must you always tell lies? You've challenged the beliefs of muslims here, that was actually what you were mostly onto before you decided to engage the atheist. What about atheism have you exposed and how effective has been your activity? How many atheist have you converted to your religion? How many atheisthere on nairaland have ever claimed that religion has been the major cause of deaths in history? You are just beating a straw man which is something you guys do always.

I have Muslims as family members and why would I dwell on this section just to mock muslims, I can engage with a tensed spat with a Muslim but its simply about 2 theists searching for truth on the supernatural.
What the hell is your mission here? To mock daily and fervently the same God you claim not to believe in?

Get a life.

Truth to which supernatural? And how many muslims have you shown this truth? How many muslims have shown christians here the truth? You guys just condemn the other religion and try to assert the truth claims of your religion while telling the opposing religion how false and even absurd their beliefs are. Before the atheist came here that was what the religion section was all about. It became so bad that an Islamic section had to be formed because christains kept mocking and insulting Islam and some crazy Muslims threatened the owner of nairaland that he had to create an Islamic section that was very strickly moderated.

You guys should NOT cry when a taste of your own medicine is giving to you. I mock Christians and Muslims and their ridiculous religious beliefs. That is what I come here to do. If you don't like it then tell your God to close down my account. At least some of your deluded christians friends like Felixmoron have openly told your God to kill me because am mocking him. You can also join them, since you obviously can not do anything about me mocking your religious beliefs. As for havinga life. I do have a life that am enjoying very well.

Can you give me 10 instances of me mocking other beliefs and I'll easily give you 100 instances you mocking other peoples beliefs. You're free to give me instances of me mocking atheism if you think atheism is a belief .

I can engage with a Muslim on a religion section and of course it can get illogical, I do this with my cousins a lot. Once again, its between two theists seeking for answers on the supernatural?
What is an atheist looking for on a religion section day and night?

You last 100 posts have majorly been an attack on one Christian or the other and you think you're not sick in the head

I can do freely what ever I want to do with my time. Mocking things that are obviously ridiculous and illogical is what I do. You just said that when you engage muslims it gets illogical but then you still do it. Why engage in something you have confessed gets illogical? Your arguments and theirs is illogical and you shouldn't be suprised when people call you out on it. It's that simple. Calling out things that are illogical doesn't mean am sick in the head. It simply means am calling out things that I find absurd.

I really doubt that you're at peact with yourself. You seem like you're still feeling the shackles of your "indoctrination".

If I believe in imaginations, abeg shey na your imagination? What's really is your problem?

You really need some peace and calm in that mind of yours.
www.nairaland.com/attachments/4037804_1218648010372215129885571185067119286766450o_jpegbb66ffe4cfcba0e4e77ebfcb9617cc3b

You've been indoctrinated to believe that anybody that questions your belief is not at peace with himself that is why you are spewing this nonsense. Some Muslims for example have been indoctrinated to accept and kill anybody that questions or mocks their beliefs. Nothing new there. You are just displaying the innermost workings of your indoctrination at its best.

Oga, Crying is True...Sexual Urge is True...Hunger is true...These are true, natural and real life occurrences and just like religion, you can't take it away from humanity.
As regards religion, people can be guided on the right path. This is why you will find me, a religious person, in a religious section.
I still don't know why an atheist will spend all his days, on a religion section, mocking religious people. You need to open your eyes and see what you're doing.

How is crying true? How is sexual urge true? True as compared to what? What about human imaginations that gave birth to religion? How are they true? What is the right path? The religion that you were indoctrinated with since childhood? Why not the other religions that you weren't indoctrinated with? What evidence have you provided that is objective to show that your religion is true and others are false? What can your God do that other Gods can not do? How have you demonstrated that to members of other religions here? What objective truth have you present to the muslims and how many have you converted here on nairaland? As for me mocking religion, it's obvious that you don't like it. Report me to your God already, and tell him to block.my account, some have told him to kill me. You can join them if you like.

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If the atheists mind is free, why use the same damn arguments which has been severally parroted by atheist high priests?
If this what they told you about God?
Don't worry, majority of the world's population will continue to have commonsense.
Commonsense tells majority of humans on earth that if a 5mp Samsung camera has a creator, then the 574mp human eye must definitely have a Creator.

Such humans can now build on commonsense to examine claims and existential relevancies of individual religion in order to reach for the truth. This is why majority will continue to be religious.

The universe is not a human society and I see no reason why it should act as one. Humans always attribute causes to things, it's a natural instinct but it is not true. That has been demonstrated to ne true many many times. And that is part of the reasons why humans created the God idea, to give or serve as explanations to things. It is a thing human beings do. But it has nothing to do with reality because humans are yet to fully grasp and understand the natural world around them.

So you see, you'll be angry for a long time

You say humans have used their imaginations to invent god but give no proof. When you make positive statements, you must give proof for such statements else you're just handwaving.

Religion is natural to humanity, atheism is alien to humanity. In the search for the true God, humanity will continue to be religious.

You'll really be angry for a long, long time.

No God has been shown to exist on its own without human input. No God has been shown to exist on its own without human writings, human cultural and societal acceptance. If you know any God that exist on its own without human input then point to that God and show how it exist on its own without human input.

All Gods are man made that is why there are different Gods and different religions. Gods are human ideas. Humanshave to sit down create the idea, invent the stories to back up the idea and also spread the idea. It is true with all religions.

So far humans have created thousands of Gods throughout history, most are even dead because people do not believe in them anymore. You don't know anything about the Gods your ancestors worshipped 1500 years ago, you can't tell me it's name or anything about it, but they had their own Gods that is totally different from the one you believe in today.

winner01:

Belief in the supernatural is innate to man. Its biological.

Superhumanist, you might have spoken a tard too hastily!

Ignorance is the actual nature of a new born person. They can then develop an irrational view of their surroundings and make their mothers tit a god, or a rational view limited to what they observe without a need to deify things!

Dalam0n:

Must you always tell lies? You've challenged the beliefs of muslims here, that was actually what you were mostly onto before you decided to engage the atheist. What about atheism have you exposed and how effective has been your activity? How many atheist have you converted to your religion? How many atheisthere on nairaland have ever claimed that religion has been the major cause of deaths in history? You are just beating a straw man which is something you guys do always. Truth to which supernatural? And how many muslims have you shown this truth? How many muslims have shown christians here the truth? You guys just condemn the other religion and try to assert the truth claims of your religion while telling the opposing religion how false and even absurd their beliefs are. Before the atheist came here that was what the religion section was all about. It became so bad that an Islamic section had to be formed because christains kept mocking and insulting Islam and some crazy Muslims threatened the owner of nairaland that he had to create an Islamic section that was very strickly moderated. You guys should NOT cry when a taste of your own medicine is giving to you. I mock Christians and Muslims and their ridiculous religious beliefs. That is what I come here to do. If you don't like it then tell your God to close down my account. At least some of your deluded christians friends like Felixmoron have openly told your God to kill me because am mocking him. You can also join them, since you obviously can not do anything about me mocking your religious beliefs. As for havinga life. I do have a life that am enjoying very well.I can do freely what ever I want to do with my time. Mocking things that are obviously ridiculous and illogical is what I do. You just said that when you engage muslims it gets illogical but then you still do it. Why engage in something you have confessed gets illogical? Your arguments and theirs is illogical and you shouldn't be suprised when people call you out on it. It's that simple. Calling out things that are illogical doesn't mean am sick in the head. It simply means am calling out things that I find absurd.You've been indoctrinated to believe that anybody that questions your belief is not at peace with himself that is why you are spewing this nonsense. Some Muslims for example have been indoctrinated to accept and kill anybody that questions or mocks their beliefs. Nothing new there. You are just displaying the innermost workings of your indoctrination at its best.How is crying true? How is sexual urge true? True as compared to what? What about human imaginations that gave birth to religion? How are they true? What is the right path? The religion that you were indoctrinated with since childhood? Why not the other religions that you weren't indoctrinated with? What evidence have you provided that is objective to show that your religion is true and others are false? What can your God do that other Gods can not do? How have you demonstrated that to members of other religions here? What objective truth have you present to the muslims and how many have you converted here on nairaland? As for me mocking religion, it's obvious that you don't like it. Report me to your God already, and tell him to block.my account, some have told him to kill me. You can join them if you like.The universe is not a human society and I see no reason why it should act as one. Humans always attribute causes to things, it's a natural instinct but it is not true.That has been demonstrated to ne true many many times. And that is part of the reasons why humans created the God idea, to give or serve as explanations to things. It is a thing human beings do. But it has nothing to do with reality because humans are yet to fully grasp and understand the natural world around them.No God has been shown to exist on its own without human input. No God has been shown to exist on its own without human writings, human cultural and societal acceptance. If you know any God that exist on its own without human input then point to that God and show how it exist on its own without human input.
All Gods are man made that is why there are different Gods and different religions. Gods are human ideas. Humanshave to sit down create the idea, invent the stories to back up the idea and also spread the idea. It is true with all religions.So far humans have created thousands of Gods throughout history, most are even dead because people do not believe in them anymore. You don't know anything about the Gods your ancestors worshipped 1500 years ago, you can't tell me it's name or anything about it, but they had their own Gods that is totally different from the one you believe in today.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/4037861_1206605110297259937381092270337710752374683n_jpeg02dafb6ccd794d3ff7890ec88f57bb31

You like typing long bullsh*t and then after I read through, hoping to find new points, I discover its the Same bullsh*t you been saying for years that you're repeating. Here are some points you need to note.

1. You claim to be free from religion or all religious beliefs and yet you spend a great portion of your time on an anonymous religion section to ridicule and mock religious people and their beliefs.
This is clearly a struggle for inner peace, its funny how you don't see that, but I'm sure reasonable people can notice this.

2. You will hardly find 10 posts of mine debating with fellow theists (Muslims) but I can give you an example of 500 of your most recent posts against God and Christianity. This is bigotry graduating into insanity.

3. You sound so stupid when you try to explain what you do here. You are here to ridicule people but never for once have you tried to tell us what your newly found belief is all about. You claim atheism is not odious and empty and yet can't construct a simple thread on the benefits of atheism or what atheism can do for humanity.

4. Your bigotry has blinded you to an extent that you can't see that this thread is not a debate on the existence of God. Not that you are even intelligent enough to debate.

5. You really need to calm down, humanity will continue to be religious in the search for their Maker (the one true God). Man will continue to believe in the supernatural until he can lay his hands on truth.

Here's what man will not do.......Man will not live life as if this is where it ends or as if this is all there is to reality. Commonsense will always prevail and this will form their basis in the search for truth.

Here's what you'll keep doing, you'll keep struggling with yourself
-to accept the new you
-to remind yourself daily that there is nothing more to this life and people must listen to you
-to renew your superiority meter by mocking "deluded" Christians
-to remind yourself that you can always discuss God or religion daily, while deluding yourself that you have moved on
-to delude yourself that you are right and everyone else is wrong
-to convince yourself that you're very intelligent and have made the right decisions.

While you wear yourself out in this stage of sadness, agony and delusion, religion will keep increasing and spreading, many people will find God and find happiness as well. The world will keep moving and humanity will keep responding to the laws of nature and commonsense.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/4037862_s10357430edit_jpega75ca8aacd4119e7284932f74a93ae01

budaatum:

Superhumanist, you might have spoken a tard too hastily!

Ignorance is the actual nature of a new born person. They can then develop an irrational view of their surroundings and make their mothers tit a god, or a rational view limited to what they observe without a need to deify things!

Great. Christianity is taught and you'll also agree that atheism is taught too.

Also, most if not all generations of humanity have always felt the need to deify things.

Didn't know that my brother KingEbukasBlog has written on this once: https://www.nairaland.com/3771249/introducing-implicit-theism-think-born

winner01:
Great. Christianity is taught and you'll also agree that atheism is taught too.

I'd like to say that "Christianity is taught, but for most of us Nigerians at least, atheism is learnt", as in no one teaches it to us (though now with NL am I not teaching? Or would you say I indoctrinate instead?)

Do note that atheism is not specifically taught anywhere (least not as far as I am aware). What is taught is a scientific way of looking at things i.e. the scientific method. If atheism is specifically taught, it can only be by indoctrination.

winner01:
Also, most if not all generations of humanity have always felt the need to deify things.

Historically, yes. And the further back in time one goes, the more ridiculous one finds things that have been deified, worshipped and sacrificed to. Imagine, gods of iron, or of thunder and lightning! Though, that still was an advancement from the tree in the backyard being the god.

One shouldn't expect any better from primitive humans who were scared of their own shadows and believed Aphrodite farted the universe into existence. If humans were still as primitive as they used to be, transportation and voice throwing devices (cars and mobile phones), would be gods too.

However, we advance today, and have much better information about, and understanding of, things we used to deify so that need is diminishing in countries where education is more advanced.

You can easily identify which nations still base their education on the existence of deities by checking which ones do not manufacture phones and cars, for instance, or which don't have nuclear technology, for example, nor light and running water! The deity educated tend to still be waiting for their gods to say “Let there be light", while the non-deity ones have understood what is meant when it is written "know ye not....", and they make light and running water, and cars and phones etc, and it is seeming to be good, and the end of old eras!

Winner01, you made me learn something today! You did not indoctrinate me, but did it by making me use my brain.
Thank you!

winner01:
Didn't know that my brother KingEbukasBlog has written on this once: https://www.nairaland.com/3771249/introducing-implicit-theism-think-born

Ebuka had a weird view of atheism and its definition. Where is he by the way? I miss him!

Saying a person is born an atheist or a theist is like wondering if a person can be born a doctor or a road sweeper!

On reflection, religion itself, is a process of educating. If a person adopts a religion, they will go through a process of being taught and self learning. This is why Christianity and Islam for instance, provide libraries of books to self learn from, and insists one goes to 'school' every Friday or Sunday to learn how to. It was how one kept the Sabbath Holy in Judaism and Christianity.

Religion can also only be by "indoctrination" if it is the type that tells one to "believe", while disallowing questioning, skepticism or doubt of what one has learnt.

An example of indoctrinators would be those who cling to the letter but ignore the spirit, while a teacher will send the Holy Spirit to further minister to one.

budaatum:

I'd like to say that "Christianity is taught, but for most of us Nigerians at least, atheism is learnt", as in no one teaches it to us (though now with NL am I not teaching? Or would you say I indoctrinate instead?)

True, but most times when I speak on atheism, I speak more on foreign atheism. There are also, a decent number of irreligious people in Nigeria who were born into irreligious families.

budaatum:


Do note that atheism is not specifically taught anywhere (least not as far as I am aware). What is taught is a scientific way of looking at things i.e. the scientific method. If atheism is specifically taught, it can only be by indoctrination.

Bro, everything is taught. Directly or indirectly. Teaching a child to be rational and objective for instance is equal to teaching a child how to think. Its a level of indoctrination. Science is also taught, and reinforced over the years. I first heard about the theory of evolution in Jss1, the theory was reinforced in my mind till higher educational levels and then I began to look at the available evidence objectively.

budaatum:


Historically, yes. And the further back in time one goes, the more ridiculous one finds things that have been deified, worshipped and sacrificed to. Imagine, gods of iron, or of thunder and lightning! Though, that still was an advancement from the tree in the backyard being the god.

True, early humans were simply trying to make sense of their world, if anything, this further proves the human disposition to believe in the supernatural.

budaatum:


One shouldn't expect any better from primitive humans who were scared of their own shadows and believed Aphrodite farted the universe into existence. If humans were still as primitive as they used to be, transportation and voice throwing devices (cars and mobile phones), would be gods too.

As ridiculous as those claims are, we still hold some equally ridiculous beliefs today despite our advancement and education. Some people still theorize that humans eventually came by through the blind processes of slime, water, time and chance.

budaatum:


However, we advance today, and have much better information about, and understanding of, things we used to deify so that need is diminishing in countries where education is more advanced.

True, but this still does not discredit certain esoteric knowledge, nor does it disprove certain religious claims. The validity of religious claims must be argued on other grounds, some of which are historical evidence, existential relevance, archeological findings etc.

budaatum:


You can easily identify which nations still base their education on the existence of deities by checking which ones do not manufacture phones and cars, for instance, or which don't have nuclear technology, for example, nor light and running water! The deity educated tend to still be waiting for their gods to say “Let there be light", while the non-deity ones have understood what is meant when it is written "know ye not....", and they make light and running water, and cars and phones etc, and it is seeming to be good, and the end of old eras!

You seem to opine that religious beliefs suppress development?

If I'm not mistaken, I'll like to remind you that U.S.A, Russia, Germany amongst others have a religious majority. The U.K prospered when it was deeply religious. China has an ever increasing number of Christians, which has caught the attention of its government, yet its economy is not regressing. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I'd like to know the point youbwere trying to make there.

budaatum:

On reflection, religion itself, is a process of educating. If a person adopts a religion, they will go through a process of being taught and self learning. This is why Christianity and Islam for instance, provide libraries of books to self learn from, and insists one goes to 'school' every Friday or Sunday to learn how to. It was how one kept the Sabbath Holy in Judaism and Christianity.

Almost every form of knowledge in this world takes its students through the process of teaching and self learning. Books are written on both theism, atheism, politics, science etc to reinforce the beliefs of students.

My point is, learning is important and this is why many forms of important knowledge are preserved and taught to younger generations. It is left to us to argue logically on which knowledge/worldview isbinvakid and out of touch with reality.

budaatum:


Religion can also only be by "indoctrination" if it is the type that tells one to "believe", while disallowing questioning, skepticism or doubt of what one has learnt.

Anyone that shields his/her worldview from skepticism or questioning is most likely shielding a lie. But then, we cannot wish away people who with lower mental characteristics, who would prefer to believe without questioning or engaging in debates. This however, has nothing to do with the validity of their beliefs. Their beliefs must be argued on separate grounds.

budaatum:

An example of indoctrinators would be those who cling to the letter but ignore the spirit, while a teacher will send the Holy Spirit to further minister to one.

Lol, whatever this means

I am most honoured. You patiently read me! So I will diligently respond when I get home.

Meanwhile, Respect Sir Winner01!

winner01:
True, but most times when I speak on atheism, I speak more on foreign atheism. There are also, a decent number of irreligious people in Nigeria who were born into irreligious families.

You sir are on a Nigerian forum talking about atheists. Forgive me if when you do, I feel you talk about me.

Perhaps say "foreign atheist when you mean others, and reserve atheists for those of us here in future.

winner01:
Bro, everything is taught. Directly or indirectly. Teaching a child to be rational and objective for instance is equal to teaching a child how to think. Its a level of indoctrination. Science is also taught, and reinforced over the years. I first heard about the theory of evolution in Jss1, the theory was reinforced in my mind till higher educational levels and then I began to look at the available evidence objectively.

I agree. I went further in a conversation with my good friend kovah and claimed "indoctrination is teaching", haven been shown the error of prior thinking by KingEbukasBlog.

winner01:
True, early humans were simply trying to make sense of their world, if anything, this further proves the human disposition to believe in the supernatural.

No sir, this does not prove "human disposition to believe in the supernatural" . All it shows is human will to seek explanation for their surroundings. It is the laziness of some that makes them believe without searching any further.

winner01:
As ridiculous as those claims are, we still hold some equally ridiculous beliefs today despite our advancement and education. Some people still theorize that humans eventually came by through the blind processes of slime, water, time and chance.

Sounds absurd, don't it. Tell me the difference though between that and them coming into existence through the moulding of mud and being breathed into by some super powerful almighty being!

winner01:
True, but this still does not discredit certain esoteric knowledge, nor does it disprove certain religious claims. The validity of religious claims must be argued on other grounds, some of which are historical evidence, existential relevance, archeological findings etc.

You don't believe that certain 'esoteric' knowledges should not be discredit. Or at least you don't normally act like you do or I would simply ask, what about the esoteric knowledge called atheism, then?

winner01:
You seem to opine that religious beliefs suppress development?

No I don't! Religion was early school. Some of us will still be bashing the heads of little babies against the wall if the school of Christianity had not taught us not to. And we agree it was how early understanding of things were propagated, before we went on to create school. But at some point, Pharisee like people and thinking takes over, and they tell people to believe what is considered to be the whole truth when in fact there is much more to everything than the serpents they dish out.

winner01:
If I'm not mistaken, I'll like to remind you that U.S.A, Russia, Germany amongst others have a religious majority. The U.K prospered when it was deeply religious. China has an ever increasing number of Christians, which has caught the attention of its government, yet its economy is not regressing. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I'd like to know the point youbwere trying to make there.

Go check. You'll find that the Christianity that they used to justify putting chains on some people and working them as slaves is not the same Christian they practice today. If it were, they would still be in what could best be described as dark ages.

winner01:
Almost every form of knowledge in this world takes its students through the process of teaching and self learning. Books are written on both theism, atheism, politics, science etc to reinforce the beliefs of students.

Yes, to reinforce the beliefs of people. But the curtain is being rent free and some people are looking beyond the veil. Education in many nations is now teaching how student can get to learn more, and not just telling them 'what is'.

winner01:
My point is, learning is important and this is why many forms of important knowledge are preserved and taught to younger generations. It is left to us to argue logically on which knowledge/worldview isbinvakid and out of touch with reality.

Well, there is no reason not to teach the history of the Yorubas, say. But we'd have problems if you then say I should base my behaviour on that history.

winner01:
Anyone that shields his/her worldview from skepticism or questioning is most likely shielding a lie. But then, we cannot wish away people who with lower mental characteristics, who would prefer to believe without questioning or engaging in debates. This however, has nothing to do with the validity of their beliefs. Their beliefs must be argued on separate grounds.

No one is wishing anyone away, but no person finds a pot of gold and doesn't go tell his neighbours, or have a light and cover it up so no one sees it. The issues we debate here is whether what we have is a pot of gold, or a light. It is the basis of the atheist/theist debates we have here.

winner01:

Lol, whatever this means

Go way! You loled, so you know what I mean.!

Pure agnosticism is the default

"Fairy tales do not give the child his first idea of bogey. What they give the child is his first clear idea of the defeat of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon." - G. K. Chesterton.

superhumanist:
Pure agnosticism is the default

budaatum:

Superhumanist, you might have spoken a tard too hastily!
Ignorance is the actual nature of a new born person.

To be agnostic, you must be aware of an idea and then decide to be unsure if its valid or otherwise.

budaatum:



No sir, this does not prove "human disposition to believe in the supernatural" . All it shows is human will to seek explanation for their surroundings. It is the laziness of some that makes them believe without searching any further.

The human disposition to believe in the supernatural is a scientific fact.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386533/Belief-religion-simply-universal-human-nature.html
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/12/religious-belief-is-human-nature-huge-new-study-claims/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8510711/Belief-in-God-is-part-of-human-nature-Oxford-study.html

budaatum:



Sounds absurd, don't it. Tell me the difference though between that and them coming into existence through the moulding of mud and being breathed into by some super powerful almighty being!!

Sounds more plausible to me. The machines I see around me are too sophisticated to have arisen by chance. Even models created by humans are nowhere near the intelligence of the total human structure. This has always been the common sense stand even though I also disagreed with it willfully when I was irreligious. Well, truth will be truth even if no one believed in it.
Atheist astronomer Fred Hoyle, who coined the term “Big Bang", once confessed that his disbelief was “greatly shaken” by the undisputed science, writing about the universe that “a common-sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super-intellect has monkeyed with the physics, as well as with chemistry and biology.”

The evidence is overwhelming and continues to stare at us even though we continue to look for alternate answers.
If this Super-intellect created man using raw materials from a created world, what qualities could I possibly use to probe the existence of this Super-intellect asides from the qualities He has willfully ingrained in me?

budaatum:


You don't believe that certain 'esoteric' knowledges should not be discredit. Or at least you don't normally act like you do or I would simply ask, what about the esoteric knowledge called atheism, then?

Atheism requires lots of faith in my opinion, I simply do not have that much faith. How could one rationally push that man is here to be here and once he's dead he's gone, that the universe is unplanned and cares nothing for us, that everything happens to happen and there's no greater purpose to life, that there is no transcendent morality, no good, no evil, and all we have are just likes and dislikes. It makes no sense and the available evidence stands against these.

budaatum:

No I don't! Religion was early school. Some of us will still be bashing the heads of little babies against the wall if the school of Christianity had not taught us not to. And we agree it was how early understanding of things were propagated, before we went on to create school. But at some point, Pharisee like people and thinking takes over, and they tell people to believe what is considered to be the whole truth when in fact there is much more to everything than the serpents they dish out.

You're correct. School is good and has always been in most cases. However, even today, there are wrong and toxic lessons taught in religious, cultural, academic and even atheistic classes.

budaatum:


Go check. You'll find that the Christianity that they used to justify putting chains on some people and working them as slaves is not the same Christian they practice today. If it were, they would still be in what could best be described as dark ages.

Maybe the Christianity practiced today is true Christianity. If you'll be honest enough with me, you'll agree that Jesus would have condemned outrightly such activities under the idea that "all men are created equal".

budaatum:


Yes, to reinforce the beliefs of people. But the curtain is being rent free and some people are looking beyond the veil. Education in many nations is now teaching how student can get to learn more, and not just telling them 'what is'.

Maybe many of our teachers, parents and even religious leaders got this wrong, it still does not say much about the validity of such teachings. I can observe how people get overtly religious in society with little to show for it, and how they condemn those who try to ask questions. This is why christian apologetics for instance, is almost non existent in Nigeria. We now know better and we can reform the process of teaching.

budaatum:


Well, there is no reason not to teach the history of the Yorubas, say. But we'd have problems if you then say I should base my behaviour on that history.

Of course, we should have problems if such teachings are out of touch with reality. But seeing that we get countless testimonies of the live effect of certain histories, the power of the Word in the lives of countless persons. One of the factors that led me to Christ, is the existential reality of the gospel.

budaatum:


No one is wishing anyone away, but no person finds a pot of gold and doesn't go tell his neighbours, or have a light and cover it up so no one sees it. The issues we debate here is whether what we have is a pot of gold, or a light. It is the basis of the atheist/theist debates we have here.

Of course, the need to evangelise I've discovered, is innate. That explains why most atheists are here trying to persuade me to be one of them. If atheists cared so much about humanity as they claim, they'll constantly be in Islams face, for we all know its the most potent tool for evil in our world today.

winner01:


To be agnostic, you must be aware of an idea and then decide to be unsure if its valid or otherwise.

Yes, and when you explain the idea of God to a 10 year old child who has live in a household where God was never discussed, the child is going to say "I dont know"

Agnosticism is the natural order. Only a fool believes an idea without doubt or testing it out in the first place

superhumanist:



Yes, and when you explain the idea of God to a 10 year old child who has live in a household where God was never discussed, the child is going to say "I dont know"

Agnosticism is the natural order. Only a fool believes an idea without doubt or testing it out in the first place

Agnostic: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.

Now read that definition 5 times over and re-read the nonsense you've just typed.

Psalms74:4 Thine enemies roar in the midst of thy congregations; they set up their ensigns for signs.


74:8 They said in their hearts, Let us destroy them together: they have burned up all the synagogues of God in the land.


74:10 O God, how long shall the adversary reproach? shall the enemy blaspheme thy name for ever?
74:11 Why withdrawest thou thy hand, even thy right hand? pluck it out of thy bosom. 74:13 Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.


74:14 Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.


74:18 Remember this, that the enemy hath reproached, O LORD, and that the foolish people have blasphemed thy name.


74:20 Have respect unto the covenant: for the dark places of the earth are full of the habitations of cruelty.
74:21 O let not the oppressed return ashamed: let the poor and needy praise thy name.
74:22 Arise, O God, plead thine own cause: remember how the foolish man reproacheth thee daily.
74:23 Forget not the voice of thine enemies: the tumult of those that rise up against thee increaseth continually.




Shared via Bible KJV http://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.gyc.ace.kjv

winner01:
The human disposition to believe in the supernatural is a scientific fact.

Humans have a disposition to believe what they wish to believe, actually, and not just in the supernatural. Believing, however, is not the great virtue religion makes it out to be and one just needs to consider the numerous beliefs that have been held to be true but that have been detrimental to human existence. Much better than believing is actual knowing. And if I were Christian or a Muslim, I would be insulting my God by claiming I believe in God. Personally, I would claim "I know God" instead, and to hell with anyone who claims I don't know my god!

winner01:
The evidence is overwhelming and continues to stare at us even though we continue to look for alternate answers.

If this were true, then consider what I said above,. Why 'believe', if you 'know' ? Surely you have been given sufficient abilities (limited, as you claim they may be), to find out, especially considering how "overwhelming" you claim the evidence is?

winner01:
Atheism requires lots of faith in my opinion, I simply do not have that much faith. How could one rationally push that man is here to be here and once he's dead he's gone, that the universe is unplanned and cares nothing for us, that everything happens to happen and there's no greater purpose to life, that there is no transcendent morality, no good, no evil, and all we have are just likes and dislikes. It makes no sense and the available evidence stands against these.

I can understand why you claim atheism requires faith. And I agree with you. An atheist has to have faith in ones fellow human being, for instance, that just because another worships a god, that don't necessarily make them bad people. An atheist has to have faith that if she goes about being nice and kind to others, goodness and mercy would go with her always, but that there is no god to ultimately reward that good. And of course everyone eventually realises that those who are nasty to others would receive opprobrium from those they are nasty too.

Funny enough, church, is where I got to learn and understand 'faith'. Turns out I now have so much of it that church people say I border on the edge of arrogance, and I agree. After all, if Christ shed blood for me, as they claim, that must make me super special, and goddamn me if despite that shedding, I were to live in fear!

winner01:
Maybe the Christianity practiced today is true Christianity. If you'll be honest enough with me, you'll agree that Jesus would have condemned outrightly such activities under the idea that "all men are created equal".

"Christianity practiced today is true" ? That would depend on where one looks. I do doubt Christ would approve of the wealth flaunting of some Christians. He might just tell people to sell all they have and give it to the poor!

winner01:
Maybe many of our teachers, parents and even religious leaders got this wrong, it still does not say much about the validity of such teachings. I can observe how people get overtly religious in society with little to show for it, and how they condemn those who try to ask questions. This is why christian apologetics for instance, is almost non existent in Nigeria. We now know better and we can reform the process of teaching.

This change in attitude is what has allowed more people to speak out against false doctrines, and ensured outright rejection, as in the case of the atheist. I personally am delighted that these sort of discussions go on, though I do wish we could apply more intelligence whilst discussing. But I have faith. I doubt many could claim they learn nothing by engaging with people of other religions on here, though I do admit that some are so rigid that they learn nothing.

winner01:
One of the factors that led me to Christ, is the existential reality of the gospel.

And that is the same thing that piqued my interest in religions, on the whole. My conclusion however, is that religion acts as a placebo whereby people convince themselves of a salvation they forever remain uncertain about despite their "blessed assurance". As I once said, do I go tell Margaret to abandon her faith and become an atheist? What good would that serve Me, or Margaret?

winner01:
Of course, the need to evangelise I've discovered, is innate. That explains why most atheists are here trying to persuade me to be one of them. If atheists cared so much about humanity as they claim, they'll constantly be in Islams face, for we all know its the most potent tool for evil in our world today.

I dislike " innatism" with a passion. I once had someone inform me that playing the piano was an innate ability, and Mozart and Beckham were the example given. The fact however is that if neither of them put the work in to learn and hone their skills, neither would be known today.

There is no inherent need to evangelise, is actually the truth, and the only reason to evangelise is to increase the number of people on ones side. Unfortunately, my atheism is academic, as in it has developed through intellectual exercise. To convert you to it would involve quite a lot of indoctrinating you, which I cannot do since there really is no gain for me in converting you. And, it would involve immense time sacrifice on your part, which honestly, I can't advocate that you take on as it would come at a huge cost to you. Besides, Margaret......

But, back to the default position. It really is simple and plain ignorance. Humans know absolutely nothing when they come out of their mothers'. In fact, they do not even know how to breath, and have to learn it in the first few seconds of being born. It is why babies cry when they are born. The cry is the first act of exhaling. We go on and fill children with stuff and claim it was innate, is the truth. You just watch Mozart develop in some rural village where there's no piano! Or try not teaching your children maths or morals hoping the ability to perform calculus or love their fellow human being, is innate.