^^^
And that is the point of the example of Abraham

nopuqeater:

This remind of the mercy of God on Abraham and his would be slaughtered son. The fact that Abraham and son submitted to the act, God did not do but ransome the child from death by replacing him with a ram, the symbolism of the slaughter. Please let me know your views. Others among christians will dance around the subjects or burst into a rage. I believe, hopefully that you are different. I wish you well. Maybe some knowledge will come out of this. Maybe some may just look at his or her religion in the absolute light of the Creator. Maybe.

You yourself used these words:

nopuqeater:

God did not do but ransome the child from death by replacing him with a ram, the symbolism of the slaughter.

God was through this incident showing us that He himself would provide the ransom. As Abraham himself said:
And Isaac said to his father Abraham, My father! And he said, Here am I, my son. He said, Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? Abraham said, God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son. So they went both of them together.
The similitude here was just as Isaac who was to die was ransomed by God Himself providing the substitute, even so will men sentenced to die be ransomed by God Himself proving a substitute:
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Indeed you will find this promise of God himself providing a substitute is the thread that runs throughout the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New Testament in Jesus of Nazareth:

ESV: Revelation of John 5:9-10
And they sang a new song, saying,
Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,

and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.

May YHWH show you grace and mercy as you consider these words.

@Aletheia: « #31 on: Today at 12:43:45 AM »  

@nopuqeater,
Thanks for bringing an Islamic perspective to this thread.
Quote from: nopuqeater on Yesterday at 08:55:16 PM
@Aletheia: « #10 on: Yesterday at 05:38:38 PM »  Good Job, Woman.
aletheia is male not female

Sorry for mislabelling you what you are not. I guess i thought it similar to AlThea, so I just assumed. My apology.

Quote from: nopuqeater on Yesterday at 08:55:16 PM
From your above, you state and conclude and accept that there is no one to be raptured. Who ever believes it will be disapponted when death comes for him while on earth, before Jesus comes, or even his second coming. In other words, everyone will die.
I must disappoint you by stating that that is not my conclusion. The word "rapture" refers to the "catching up of believers" who are then alive at the coming of Jesus of Nazareth. Every true Christian believes this will happen based on 1 Thessalonians:

Thanks for being so candid. But you did not disappoint me. Rather I had hoped that you will take this position that you took here. If we look at the bolded, then a God who allowed some people to die, and spared some to experience this very essential part of being a man, will have to be unfair in His decision by that injustice that He has brought on greater Christians [since this is a christian only concept], like Paul, John, Mark, james, Luke, etc, etc, Mary Margalene, Mary Mother of Jesus, etc, etc but then spared jane Doe, John Doe, etc simply because they are born at the tail end of mankind on earth. I remember Jerry Fahwell of the US, who was a great proponent of this concept. He didnt see that he was getting old, and in his ignorance of human nature (the american says two things are guaranteed; taxes and death), birth and death. No one will escape it. Though I dont believe it, you my man believe that Jesus died on the cross, though he did not want to die, do you therefore he being your God will want to experience death, but spare you ordinary christian that very "painful by his yelling" experience? If Jesus had his way, dont you think he would have protected himself and his disciples from it? Why do you think the statement in Thessalonians is binding on Jesus or the Creator who you said sacrificed Jesus for you?

ESV: I Thessalonians Chapter 4:13-17
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

So you see there will be a catching up of believers (rapture) when Jesus returns.

How is this very Biblical writing of Paul binding on Yahweh, Jehovah or Eloi God Almighty Who you said made Jesus died, already? Is Jane Doe who is alive in time of the second coming of Jesus more important than Jesus who you said died? Why would Jane Doe be spared of death, or how is the statement of paul to a group of people binding on God, Yahweh, Eloi or the Jesus who He sent? If Jesus was God who died, dont you think that that God will make everyone experience death, even though not in the painful matter he did experience it on the cross? Afterall, his mother Mary died. Why should Jane Doe not die? Explain. Th verse you quoted does not give any indication that it was a devine statement, but just opinion and from a wishful thinking list, jsut as many thing Paul said to gain people for his belief or vaselage the emotion of many to followership.

nopuqeater:

Sorry for mislabelling you what you are not. I guess i thought it similar to AlThea, so I just assumed. My apology.

No worries man.

nopuqeater:

Thanks for being so candid. But you did not disappoint me. Rather I had hoped that you will take this position that you took here. If we look at the bolded, then a God who allowed some people to die, and spared some to experience this very essential part of being a man, will have to be unfair in His decision by that injustice that He has brought on greater Christians [since this is a christian only concept], like Paul, John, Mark, james, Luke, etc, etc, Mary Margalene, Mary Mother of Jesus, etc, etc but then spared jane Doe, John Doe, etc simply because they are born at the tail end of mankind on earth.

God is not unfair or unjust in permitting some not to experience death. You miss the essential point, which is that those who miss out on death are those who are believers in Jesus of Nazareth. Indeed as Jesus Himself emphatically declares:

John 11:23-26
Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
So for believers in Christ. . .death is only a transition, if they die before He returns. If they are living when He returns, then as He has said: "whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die." But sadly, you don't believe this.

Moreover, as types and foreshadows of what to expect, God shows us in the bible, the examples of Enoch and Elijah, two men who did not go the way of all flesh.
1. Genesis 5:23-24: And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years. And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Heb 11:5. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
2. II Kings 2:1,11: And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

So both Enoch and Elijah are types foreshadowing what will happen to believers who are alive when Jesus returns. We who are then alive will be caught up to meet him in the clouds, as He returns with the saints who preceded us in death. Indeed, the scriptures make clear that those who are alive are so to say "late to the party", as those who are dead are already united with Jesus.

ESV: I Thes 4
[15] For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
[17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

nopuqeater:

How is this very Biblical writing of Paul binding on Yahweh, Jehovah or Eloi God Almighty Who you said made Jesus died, already? Is Jane Doe who is alive in time of the second coming of Jesus more important than Jesus who you said died? Why would Jane Doe be spared of death, or how is the statement of paul to a group of people binding on God, Yahweh, Eloi or the Jesus who He sent? If Jesus was God who died, dont you think that that God will make everyone experience death, even though not in the painful matter he did experience it on the cross? Afterall, his mother Mary died. Why should Jane Doe not die? Explain. Th verse you quoted does not give any indication that it was a devine statement, but just opinion and from a wishful thinking list, jsut as many thing Paul said to gain people for his belief or vaselage the emotion of many to followership.

You do ignore what was written in verse 15 of the above bible verse:

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Yahweh was the One speaking through Paul. Please note that when Paul was expressing his opinion in his epistles, he made that clear as you can see in this example:

ESV: I Cor 7:10-12
To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife. To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her.

You do believe in the Day of Judgment and that Jesus is returning someday (soon, I hope) so I implore you to sincerely consider this question: "What hope do you have for facing the Creator on the Day of Judgment?" Who will be your Advocate on that Day, when you face the demands of Perfect Justice, stripped of all pretensions of Religion - whether Islam or Christianity?

@Aletheia:

Quote from: nopuqeater on Yesterday at 08:55:16 PM
If this is the case, when jesus is here, will those people who are on earth and have not died, die, as a natural rule if there is no rapture or anything similar to it, regardless of rising or not to the sky, but alive under the heavens, while alive on earth

Having established that there will be a "rapture" at the time Jesus returns.

My man, only Paul proposed this idea. Jesus never did. But if Paul's writing is taken as the absolute truth on matters not mentioned by Jesus or the God Who sent him, then it is no wonder that the OT was open handedly dismissed, a clear opposition to Jesus's position.

The question as I understand it is what happens to all those alive then? Jesus himself addressed this in some of his parables:

ESV: Matthew Chapter 13:37-41
He answered, The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

One will expect there was a question about Rapture before answered it as above. Since you did not even tel us the question, here is it below and there is nothing about Rapture in it. Not remotely. If it is tell me then that the parable of the sower is also talking about Rapture. Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.”

And furthermore. . .

ESV: I Corinthians Chapter 15:50-57
I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

First Jesus has nothing to do with this saying above. This is a statement of somebody other than Jesus at the time that Jesus was lifted up, and not on earth with his "disciples". But then if the first bolded is why you think the writer is talking about Rapture, then the second bolded opposes it, and even the writer says that his body dead will assume immortality having experienced death for just one time.  that he thought that Jesus will come back in his lifetime, as he had promised, still unfulfilled. [b] Matthew 16:28, in which he says "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." Another example is found at Luke 21:32, where he says "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." He makes similar statements in Luke 9:27 and Mark 9:1.[/b]The apostle Paul also expected a quick return. Although he apparently never met Jesus, he knew about the promised return, and he expected to live long enough to see it happen. In 1Corinthians 7:29-31 he says that the time is so short that believers must drastically change the way they live. But several of his letters, particularly those he wrote to the Thessalonians, reveal that some people were starting to wonder why Jesus hadn't already returned and were concerned about the delay. John 21:20-23 suggests that many people held onto their hopes for a surprisingly long time. At one point in this passage Peter asks Jesus about the final fate of the Beloved Disciple. The passage continues as follows:

Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
Evidently Jesus had once made a statement about wanting the Beloved Disciple "to remain alive until I return." Such a statement could have caused people to expect this disciple to live until the second coming. Thus, as long as he remained alive, people could still hold out hope that Jesus would soon return.
Rapture has been a false hope on all greater Christians than you or any christian for that matter. Oral Robert died on that hope. Fahwell died in his office on a summer afternoon, two years ago, on that very false hope. Tell me if any of the verses I listed is false. Where is a soul from the time of Jesus?

There will be two groups of people on earth at the return of Jesus: the good seed and the sons of the evil one. The good seed (disciples of Jesus of Nazareth) will be changed and will not die hence: "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed", while the sons of the evil one (those who have rejected Jesus of Nazareth as Lord) will go into Judgment. Moreover, understand that followers of Jesus Christ are not subject to the judgment of unbelievers.

All the people in the bolded group are all dead. The sons of the evil one that the writer was talking about are all dead. Every Christian for the next 1000s of years if God permits people to be alive will siem so do the disbelievers in Jesus as God, people like me, who you labelled as sons of the evil one will die, just as well. Show me a believer in Jesus as God who has lived for more than a 1000 years? Jesus has bee out of this world for 2000 and of course he promised that he will return soon enough while his followers, at least one of them was still alive. Where is that one person to act as the litmus test of the possibility that Jesus will come and just maybe the person will be alive? Jusr one person. Thats all. How about Paul? Can he be that person alive? What about Peter the rock?

ESV: Romans Chapter 8:33-34
Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

This verse proves nothing about Rapture. Infact it goes against the belief that the 12 apostles will judge the people, the christians, for that very fact that the verse, Roman 8/55-34 says that jesus is intercedeing for them. Why interceding except that you are a guilty soul? A righteous soul will not need intercession. Will Moses need intercession? Will Abraham need one too, the friend of God? Check your Bible, Abraham was the father of faith. Yahweh is his Friend. Can anyone have a higher status than the friend of Elio?

Revelation of John Chapter 20:4-6
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

My man am sure you know that 1000 years or even 10,000 is so short a period of time that it is like a twinkle of the eye when compared to eternity. So what happened after the 1000s of years that the Bibe listed? But then when you look at the first bolded, it opposes the Roman verses written by the same writer talking about intercession, though Paul was not known to Jesus. Where did the Beast that Paul spoke about came into the Biblical narations? Did he get that from Jesus or the God that sent Jesus, not forgetting that jesus said that the OT was enough, and his gospel was preaching to people to return to OT's laws and Prophetic ways? Very interesting that the writer stated that "first' death will affect everyone, but second death will not reach the "believers". Is this first death a killer of the rapture concept, where some people will escape death? How do you wish to reconcile these two opposite statement from the same writer on a single subject; death?

^^^I am sorry but we seem to be talking at cross purposes. You need to clarify for me what you understand by "Rapture". I would rather discuss what is in the Bible not the traditions of men as taught. If you will notice I have been careful to put the word "rapture" in quotes in my posts for the reason that a lot of what is believed finds no support in the Bible.
So to clarify my position:
1. Jesus is returning one day.
2. When he returns, he will judge the world.
3. At that time the dead in Christ will be raised and those who are alive will be caught up to meet him in the clouds.
As you no doubt know from reading the bible:
Jesus himself declared He will return some day (something you yourself believe as a Muslim). So why is that difficult for you to accept. Secondly, you need to respond to some questions I posed to you earlier concerning the uniqueness of Jesus.

Concerning your latest post. Most of what you wrote in this last post, I have already addressed in my earlier posts, if only you would patiently read them. The problem here is as I see it that you come with an air of superiority thinking to overwhelm me with the force of your arguments. Please read what I have written, so that we can have a genuine dialogue and not a discourse of the deaf.
I will briefly address some of the above:

nopuqeater:

. . .All the people in the bolded group are all dead. The sons of the evil one that the writer was talking about are all dead. Every Christian for the next 1000s of years if God permits people to be alive will siem so do the disbelievers in Jesus as God, people like me, who you labelled as sons of the evil one will die, just as well. Show me a believer in Jesus as God who has lived for more than a 1000 years? Jesus has bee out of this world for 2000 and of course he promised that he will return soon enough while his followers, at least one of them was still alive. Where is that one person to act as the litmus test of the possibility that Jesus will come and just maybe the person will be alive? Jusr one person. Thats all. How about Paul? Can he be that person alive? What about Peter the rock?

1. All men die, except true believers in Jesus Christ.
2. Christians are to live with the expectation of Jesus' sudden return as he himself commanded.
Matt 24-42-44 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Therefore it is not surprising if the disciples of old lived and spoke as if they expected His imminent return. Indeed believers of all ages are commanded by Jesus to live in such a fashion.
3. Where do you find anyone saying that people alive in the 1st century are still alive today because Jesus is yet to return. Your question: "Show me a believer in Jesus as God who has lived for more than a 1000 years?" is ridiculous!
4. On the other hand, when Jesus returns, there will be believers alive! And so your other question: "Where is that one person to act as the litmus test of the possibility that Jesus will come and just maybe the person will be alive? Jusr one person."
shows that your anger with Christians clouds your emotions. If you a Muslim believes that there will be Muslims still living when Jesus returns, what about the true disciples of Jesus? Of course there will be several Christians still alive when Jesus returns!

nopuqeater:

This verse proves nothing about Rapture. Infact it goes against the belief that the 12 apostles will judge the people, the christians, for that very fact that the verse, Roman 8/55-34 says that jesus is intercedeing for them. Why interceding except that you are a guilty soul? A righteous soul will not need intercession. Will Moses need intercession? Will Abraham need one too, the friend of God? Check your Bible, Abraham was the father of faith. Yahweh is his Friend. Can anyone have a higher status than the friend of Elio?

Romans 8:33-34 is not about the "rapture". It is about the justification of those who put their hope in Jesus. I can see you have almost grasped the heart of the matter. If only the eyes of your heart will be opened! "Why interceding except that you are a guilty soul? A righteous soul will not need intercession." You ask.
Before YHWH (the One True God whose Justice is Perfect), I and you and every man that ever lived (including Moses, Abraham, Mohammed) are guilty souls! And it is God Himself that declares this verdict:

Romans 3:10. as it is written: None is righteous, no, not one

So yes, you and I and every man that ever lived (including Moses, Abraham, Mohammed) are in need of intercession. Intercession that is available through faith in Jesus. On the Day of Judgment, He is my Hope. Who are you depending on to intercede for you on that Day. Are you trusting in your "good works" which in the eyes of the Holy, Righteous and Perfectly Just God are filthier than the rags a woman uses for her menses.

nopuqeater:

My man am sure you know that 1000 years or even 10,000 is so short a period of time that it is like a twinkle of the eye when compared to eternity. So what happened after the 1000s of years that the Bibe listed? But then when you look at the first bolded, it opposes the Roman verses written by the same writer talking about intercession, though Paul was not known to Jesus. Where did the Beast that Paul spoke about came into the Biblical narations? Did he get that from Jesus or the God that sent Jesus, not forgetting that jesus said that the OT was enough, and his gospel was preaching to people to return to OT's laws and Prophetic ways? Very interesting that the writer stated that "first' death will affect everyone, but second death will not reach the "believers". Is this first death a killer of the rapture concept, where some people will escape death? How do you wish to reconcile these two opposite statement from the same writer on a single subject; death?

1. You betray unfamiliarity with the Bible by supposing that Revelation was written by Paul.
2. If you had read on to verse 7 and beyond, you would have answered your question as to what happens after the 1000 years.

Revelation of John Chapter 20:4-6
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

3. In what way does the verses bolded by you above oppose the fact that the saints are saved by the intercession of Jesus. I ask you: what is the testimony of Jesus that is referenced in the verse? Does it not refer to the fact that this ones died for holding that Jesus is Lord, and there is no name under heaven by which men can be saved. [And you know that in Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia et al, several who hold to the testimony of Jesus have been killed.]
It is because Christ has saved them that they reign with Him. Remember my earlier post:

John 11.25-26: Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

All who believe in Jesus of Nazareth and are saved will partake in the first resurrection which occurs at the time of his return as it is written: For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. . .

Revelation of John Chapter 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This brings us back to the point I was making with Roman 8:33-34: Believers in Christ are not subject to Judgment, for the Judge Himself (Jesus of Nazareth) has declared us free from guilt. Will Jesus (whom you believe is coming back to judge the world) declare you guiltless on that Day.

@Aletheia:

Jesus died at his first coming. More than that, he rose alive from death and is coming a second time to judge the world in righteousness and holiness. God commands men everywhere to repent of their evil deeds and put their hope in Jesus of Nazareth.
ESV: Acts Chapter 4:10-12
"let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well. This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." ;.quote]From all indication, the speaker was speaking to a crown from among the children of israel. So the you refered to only his listeners. The speaker, I hope you noticed he referred to the people of Israel, and not the whole world to include where you are and where I am. And from the time of after the reign of King Solomon, the community of children graduated to nations, Israel and Judea which were referred to as the "world" since they are so unique, in the way they see themselves. If you remember, they did not have kings until they forced Samuel to give them a king like other nations they came in contact to, eg Egypt, even in all the years and centuries they left that land. Saul was their first King, hence they became a nation. When they were divided into nations, they became a "world", and if Jesus didnt miniter ti the whole world, how can he be the savior of the whole world? Finally, scientifically, when a person is dead, his blood stop flowing like that of people who are not dead, but alive. Jesus blood never stopped. There is no way, unless you can proof it as a Jewish culture that they apply oil on the wound or body of their dead. If you cant, with clear evidence, Jesus did not start a new tradition for neither Jew nor Christians that their dead must now be oiled down. No christian practised it. The Jews dont, before, during and after jesus. Any oil on the body as it was applied on Jesus was to heal a wound, eliminate pain. These are the realities, but you are free to believe what ever you belief.

I know you will probably find this hard to take because all your life as a Muslim, you have been told that Jesus did not die. But I would beg you to sincerely examine the historical evidence for yourself, asking God to show you the truth, for on your decision concerning who Jesus of Nazareth is, hangs your eternal destiny.

This muslim was raised by christians. All my life I was surrounded by Christians and I read the Bible enough to make my own Judgement before I touched the Quran. I do pray to God Almighty WHo is One Complete God Lord Creator without partner and son. Allah says in the Quran against the idea that He has a son, by many Verses. One of them is in Chapetr 112. But another is in Surah Azumar where God said to Muhammad (AS), as a way forward to dialogue with those who believe this :Say (to them, oh Muhammad), if Allah were to have had a son, I would have been the first (Who will know about it, now among those alive because i am a Messenger Prophet of God and I am receiving on going revelation from Him), to worship ths son (for the son would have had the exact completeness as God. Alas, no body on earth or any in heavens has this completeness).



[Quote] This is one of the points of disagreement of between our two faiths. But there are some points of congruence, where Islam agrees with Christianity (correct me if I am wrong).
1. Jesus was unique among the prophets.

Every prophet is unique. Messengers were even more unique.

2. He had no earthly father.

Our mother Eve was not a prophet, yet she had no earthly father. If you know her earthly father, please name him. She was even more unique than Jesus in the respect that Jesus had an earthy mother, Mary. Who is the earthly mother of our mother Eve? if havinag ano eathly father was the big deal, then "Molly" the cloned sheep was more unique. If not having an earth father is the big kuhana, then the children from sperm banks are just as unique.

3. He is known as the Word of God.

Moses was known as the kalamullah, Book of God. Abraham was known as kalihullah, intimate Friend of God. You want more? Even your Bible says that God breathed life into Adam. How, except that He held him, touched hm, drew him close and put His mouth over his mouth or nostril to breath that life in Him into Adam. This is from your Bible. The Islamic perspective is different, since Allah says there is nothing of Him that is in the creation. So when Allah gave life or living soul into Adam, He did not have to touch him, except command him to come alive.

4. He was without sin.

So was any and all rophet. Now tell me a single sin of John, the cousin of Jesus. Jesus called people fools after he had warned that if anyone called anybody a fool, he will spend time in hell for such a statement. Jesus killed a tree that was not fruiting in the off season. If it had been any person that did it, you may have said the person committed a sin, because the nature of the tree was not to fruit at that time, so why kill it. I have many proofs that Jesus according to your Bible committed sin. But you will say none of them was a sin, because it is Jesus the lord that did it. But is God unjust? Is He egotistical? The answer to each is no. Does God show mercy> Yes. A merciful person would not have killed the tree. A merciful person would not have not forgiven the thief on the left. What were the offenses of these; The tree and the Thief relative to Jesus? nothing. Or proof me wrong. Was it the season to fruit and the tree knew Jesus was coming and he rotted al is fruits so that Jesus could not eat? Jesus should have used his power to produce enough fruit to feed himself. By the way, was anybody around him to see this, or he told the isteners, look this is what I did to the tree that did not fruit out od season? Thats not modesty. Arrogance is a sin.

5. He is returning one day.

As a prophet of Islam and he will die as amuslim. His first death, ever.

6. He will judge the world, when he returns.

Wrong. THe ONLY JUDGE is the Creator. Jesus, like all the other prophet will come to Allah as they are "messenger and or Prophet" with his community, the believers and the disbelievers among them. The believers among them will be their real followers. By the way, the christians who go against Jesus will not be his true folowers. So if you say he is 1/3 of the Creator, His partner, His son, you are not his true follower. His tue follwers are "submissive to God's Will [muslims]" in his prophetic period, the beginning of hs ministry all the way to the beginning of Muhammad;s ministry.

Ask yourself this: why is it that of all the prophets, only Jesus of Nazareth has these unique attributes?

Am sure that after you have read my above responses, you do not think the way you though befor which prompted you to conclude as you did. Muhammad in his night Journey of Isra wa Miraj led All prophets, Jesus included and an Angel (Jibril) who accompanied in the journey in Salah known as salatul Ibrahima. Now this is uniquenesss. I will not raise the issue of another comforter unless you bring it up.

To what purpose, and for what end? Where Islam struggles with the idea of the vicarious atonement of Jesus of Nazareth is expressed succinctly by your words

The bolded, i must confess, i do not know what it means. Maybe you wil clarify it. There is no where Islam says Jesus is better than any propjhets. He was not the last  and he was not the first. Allah says that his creation was similar to that of Adam. When Allah decrees a thing He but say to it "Be", "So it Be".[/quote]

@Aletheia; Let finishe with the first before you respond so that we can have a cordial, but orderly dialogue, if you respond to me before I finsh with the earlier post that you made, then the argument will be fuzzy, and it will run over segment over another.

@Aletheia:

ESV: Matthew 20:28 "even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
He will come again the second time in Justice to execute judgment on all the unrighteous.

Did the verse above gave you theinkling to the bolded? There were unrightoues people even from the son of Adam and Eve. cain was unrighteous. Jesus will Judge Cain? You think?

Quote
ESV: Revelation 19:11-16
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

Jesus words or God words, or Angel of God words or Pauls words?If this was a harry Porter dialogue, monologue, the witches and wizard officianadoes will not find it spiritually off their espected scale. But a religion that says there is God, and professes not to be idolatry?

Now when you sin against God, what can you possibly do to offset his Perfect Justice? The bible makes clear that the wages (rewards or recompense) of sin is death. . .so as a man, what can you do to offset the demands of Perfect Justice because it is impossible to escape Perfect Justice? And that's why. . .it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment (Heb 9:27), for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23).

The bolded kills "Rapture". Or it doesnt ?

Unless someone offers to pay the ransom (take your punishment in your place), you wouldn't escape! Another man could possibly offer to take your punishment,

And the Biblical God cursed all mankind. If He did, all men are doomed. No one will enter paradise, or for Christians, the heaven. If anyone enters paradise or christian's heaven as christian wishes to say, then this God changed His mind. He did not say He will ransome and show evidence that this was possible. We see that when he ransomed the son of Abraham, it was instantaneously. This ransome you spoke about that you are putting Jesus as the ransome, should have been instantaneous at the time of Adam and Eve's sinfulness. Instead your Bible said Yahweh, Jehovah, Eloi curse man till te last day. So regardless how you present it, 2000 year event of ransome according to you did not remove the curse from man; women still get the birth pain, and men still work hard for his earning. Which is correct, since the curse is not removed, it seems as if the ransome thing didnt work as expected. But God Who can decide everything He wants as He did on Jesus forcing him to die, acccording to you, should have been able to show real mercy by just ransoming people without killing a man who did not want to die, and it is not like anyone can challenge Yahweh "hey why do you forgive man without any payment"?, when you said you dont even want the blood of animals, why do you have to kill a man who did not want to?

Job 33:23-24
If there be for him an angel,
a mediator, one of the thousand,
to declare to man what is right for him,

and he is merciful to him, and says,
Deliver him from going down into the pit;
I have found a ransom;

I hope you are not saying this means Jesus or some ransome to be sure that no christian will go to lake of fire? Well i am sure you know that some Christians will go to the lake, at least it is stated that Jesus will deny some "christians", even the big miracle performers. All these prove that the ransome, if there was did not do the trick, for the essence of Christianity is to believe in Jesus. Even with that hell fire is still the abode of many of the christians.

but he would have to be blameless and not also under the penalty demanded by Perfect Justice i.e. sinless (interesting that Muslims also believe that Jesus was sinless)

Jesus is not unique here. John the sinless. So is Abraham. So is their chairman, Muhammad who Allah attaches his name to His Own Name.

ESV: Psalms 49:7-8 Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, that he should live on forever and never see the pit.

Jesus was a man from his own mouth. And I dont know how this verse necessarily speaks about Jesus? Is his name written somewhere that I do not see in this verse.

ESV: Psalms 49:15 But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me.

Where is Jesus name mentioned here? Is he the God mentioned by David? Please state your case very clearly.

So can you see the logic here: No man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, but God will himself ransom the man's soul.
Jesus of Nazareth (the only one without sin & therefore the only one who can pay the ransom) said this:

Jesus was a man. Or he wasnt? Even the angels did not eat. And jesus ate throughout his life. And when he fasted, to break his fast, we knew what happened to the fig tree, and even the satancatching him in an awkward position, playing him with a oaf of bread. Was there a physical bread, and was anyone with him, or this is another case of telling people after the incidence?



[Quote]ESV: Matthew 20:28 "even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
But we know that the only one without sin is God, ergo Jesus is God.[/quote]Ransome here does not mean death. Look it says many, not all. And remember he preached only to the world of the children of Israel. God is not under the rules he made for man. God knows everything. God never worship anyone. God never asked anyone for help. God never was without full knowledge. Jesus lacked any and all things that God has. Jesus is not God.

In Noah's time, God decreed that he was going to destroy the world by a flood and commanded Noah to build an ark, in order to escape the coming judgment. For the people at that time, it would have seemed a preposterous idea. Flood? What flood? When they had seen nothing like rain ever before. No doubt they scoffed at the message of Noah. How could water fall from the sky, when all their human understanding, science and knowledge suggested otherwise. We know that only those who entered the ark were saved. All those outside perished.

You are wrong by the bolded. Considering that the time of Noah, the ozone layer was not this depleted and rainforest will een have more rainfall as we have in rainforest of today. Even the desert then will have more rainfall than the desert of today. Even in Sahara, rain falls in it. So to say there was no rainfall experience in time of Noah, before the flood was complete misinformation. The people knew rain does fall. When Noah said it, they just would not take it as to be so much to end in a desastous way for anyone.

Jesus himself said: For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
In similar fashion, Jesus is the Ark that preserves all those who have put their trust in Him. All outside perish.

From your statement, we can imagine that the rain started falling, and no one panicked, which tells us that they are familiar with rainfall. Otherwise, they would not have carried on a normal life, until it became a flood. Jesus, if he was right inhis summation as you put it, why did he not return even before Paul died, as he had promised the disciples (paul was not even there. He was a later comer)?

The idea that God would accept humiliation in the person of Jesus being crucified is one that you as a Muslim finds abhorrent, and you are not alone. The Jews also stumble upon this point.

Jesus was a Jew. I guess the Jews have more spiritual right than the Chrstian Gentiles. Jesus gospelled to te Jews, not gentile Nigerians. Jews acording to what I have heard Christians say, are the owner of "Salvation". for "salvation is of the Jews". If they say Jesus is no God, and not a ransome, then I guess you should reconsider it, for you are a borrower of their Book, their tradition.

ESV: I Cor 1:21-24 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

This verse is after Jesus left, how does it proof anything, when this is obviously against jesus opinion of himself relative to the God Who sent him and it opposes the OT belief?

You are both right in that God is All-powerful and His Justice is Perfect but you overlook the fact that He is Perfect Love as well. Let me ask you to consider sincerely this question: "What hope do you have for facing the Creator on the Day of Judgment?"

When you read the Quran and if you consider the Bible thoroughly, too, you will see that the one who is worshipping the One God is head and shoulder over the one who says God is 3. Allah Himself has shown me Mercy in Surah Fatha. baqarah ( the first 5 verses will tell you plenty), in Surah Al Maida, Allah says the religion of Allah for mankind is Islam and today it is perfected and completed in the hand of Muhammad indicating it started long tiime before Muhammad and progressed through the ages and now it is complete. Allah says no religion will be accepted before Him except islam and whoever brings any but Islam, it will be rejected (Surah Imran).

Who will be your Advocate on that Day, when you face the demands of Perfect Justice, stripped of all pretensions of Religion - whether Islam or Christianity?

In surah Maryam, Allah says no intercession will be permitted except the one who has been permitted to make Intercession. Muhammad has been permitted to make intercession, before any creation can. The first is last, the best is last. Muhammad is the best. Now we have a prayer that we make when ahdan and or iqamah are made. Part of it is about Allah's promise that Muhammad will make intercession on behalf of believers will be fulfilled, guaranteed by the Creator Himself.

@Aletheia:

Sorry to burst the bubble but could you please backtrack a few posts and consider the effect of this "conversation"? - derailment! Much as its commendable trying to explain truth, I know you realise a brick wall does not provide the most sympathetic pair of ears.

Your audience has made up his mind - NOTHING on earth will change it. It may sound heretical but I doubt heaven will bother.

Look at other threads. The same has happened - its a scheme powered by a guiding personage and the desired result is to stop true exchange of knowledge i.e. anti-spread of the Gospel. At the end, when you get tired (and irritated), it becomes mud-slinging

MARK OF THE BEAST (666)

RFID

“He required everyone – great and small, rich and poor, slave and free – to be given a mark on the right hand or on the forehead. And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name. Wisdom is needed to understanding this. Let the one who has understanding solve the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is 666” (Rev. 13:16-18 New Living Translation).



666 IS A SYSTEM OF THE ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT

At the present time, computer-assisted biometric identification systems are being developed rapidly and have been readily accepted into our society. Miniature computer chips, using RFID (Radio Frequency Identification) technology, have already been embedded within electronic appliances, retail goods, livestock, and human beings. This is not tomorrow’s science fiction – it is happening today.

In many parts of the world, Applied Digital Corporation’s human implanted RFID microchip (VeriChip) is used to help diagnose Alzheimer’s disease, mental illness, Diabetes, heart problems and it also helps to prevent kidnappings. In the near future, this type of biochip will be widely accepted and implanted for personal identification, protection, monitoring, tracking, commerce, and other uses not yet imagined.

Unfortunately, such biochips store personal identification and the information generated from its use will be stored and maintained in a computer database. Your body becomes a tagged asset that is monitored and whose behavior will be tracked. Implanting the microchip in the body alters a person’s physically, mentally and ultimately – spiritually. The problem that arises from the use of biochip in humans is more than an aesthetic, medical, political, or legal issue.

Satan works in the world and he shapes people and society to achieve his goals. Knowingly or not, anti-christ will force people to follow and obey an agenda that appears to be in the best interest of its people but, in following the pattern of human history and man’s rebellion to God, will bring about pain and suffering until Christ comes again.

“…he [satan’s agent] deceived all the people who belong to this world. He ordered the people of the world to make a great statue of the first beast, who was fatally wounded and then came back to life. He was permitted to give life to this stature so that it could speak. Then the statue commanded that anyone refusing to worship it must die.” (Rev 13vs14-15 New Living Translation).

A time is coming when society and lives will be ruled by a self-imposed system where mankind is monitored, analyzed, measured, and evaluated by computers. In those times, anyone who refuses to accept this system will be tortured then killed.



FORMATION OF A UBIQUITOUS SOCIETY



We are moving towards a ubiquitous society where people from all walks of life can access anything, anywhere, and at anytime regardless of time and location. What drives such development is the belief that we will live safer, easier, richer and more enjoyable lives by using technology to manage everyday aspects of daily life. In a society that craves automated financial management, instant communication and security, it’s not a far stretch for RFID enabled biochips to be implanted into the body, and eventually replacing currency that is easily stolen, lost, or hidden. In the near future:

1) All people will be required to have a biochip. All economic operations will use this chip thereby replacing today’s unit of monetary exchange.

2) There will be privacy invasion and freedom will cease to exist.

3) A charismatic leader, who is the Anti-Christ, will rule the whole world through a system that is interconnected and interdependent.

MARK OF THE BEAST IN THE HUMAN BODY, WE MUST NOT RECEIVE IT. (REV 14VS9, 14VS11, 16VS2)

1) Accepting this mark is the irreversible act of selling your soul to Satan. This sin is unforgivable and cannot be reversed by physically removing the mark (Rev. 14:9-11). Your soul belongs to God. Therefore if you receive this mark, you then will belong to Satan.

2) If you receive this mark, you willfully placing your faith in man and not in God. You are actively choosing to live without a loving God who desires to spend eternity with you in Heaven. God does not want you choosing Hell’s path. God knew these things beforehand, and because He loves us and wants us to acknowledge this, it was revealed to us through the writing of the apostle John in Revelation around 100 AD. If you are not taken up to heaven and are thereby left behind for the tribulation, you must not receive the mark of the beast even though you will be tortured then killed for not accepting the government’s sanctioned acts of satan. You must remember this at all times because the hope of heaven still remains until the end comes.

HAVE YOU RECEIVED JESUS AS YOUR PERSONAL SAVIOR?

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (Rom. 3:23)

Money is not everything. A person cannot come to God by believing in any other gods, ethics, discipline, or by good deeds. Only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ makes it possible to stand righteous before a holy God at end of human history. It was for this reason that Jesus Christ suffered on the cross, shed His blood, died, and came back to life. This was done to demonstrate God’s willingness, ability, and glory in saving us from sin and death.

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father excerpt through Me. (John 14:6)

That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified. And it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. (Rom 10:9-10)

You must believe in Jesus and that He died for your sins. Jesus loves you.

For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

Realize that you are a sinner and you must pray in faith. You need to receive Jesus as your personal Savior. There is surely a Heaven and a Hell. Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven.

JESUS IS COMING SOON, PREPARE FOR THE RAPTURE

Jesus, who redeemed us through the cross will prepare a place and will come back to be with us. He has promised us. (John 14:3). The rapture will take place before the Great Tribulation (Rev. 3:10). Jesus said, “you know to interpret how to interpret the appearance of the sky but you cannot interpret the signs of the times, (Matt. 16:3 Luke 12:56).

ALL BELOVED SAINTS IN JESUS CHRIST

The rapture is reserved for those saints who will be lifted into the sky upon God’s trumpet call, saints that are to be raptured will be lifted into the sky to meet Jesus in the clouds (1 The 4:16-17). The rapture is reserved for those believers who wear spiritual white robes. Their physical body will be transformed into a glorious body and will be God’s delight, (Rev. 19:7-.

If you remain in lukewarm faith, Jesus will spew you out so you must not be like this type of believer (Rev. 3:16). Jesus’ first coming was to bring salvation, but He is coming again to meet those who are Ready and Waiting in the clouds at the sound of the trumpets and this is call Rapture. Lord Jesus, will take His children with Him to Heaven. After the tribulation on earth then He will return again on earth with those who were ratpured with Him into Heaven to the New Jerusalem this will be called His Second Coming. For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when He comes? Is it not you? (1 Thess. 2:19)
At Jesus’ return, only raptured saints will be presented at the seat of glory (1 Cor. 15:49-55). Even if we do not know the day and time of His coming, the sons of light are not in darkness therefore that day will not come upon you like a thief (1 Thess. 5:4-5). Do not be lukewarm believers nor do not sleep but be awake and pray, (1 Thess. 5:1-4). Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard: obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you, (Rev. 3:3). Those with lukewarm faith, those who are tied to the world, and those who do not know Jesus will be left behind for the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation will be the most devastating time in all of human history. Those who are left behind in the Great Tribulation must not receive the biochip (which bears satan’s name) into their body (forehead or right hand; Rev 13vs16, 20vs4) even to the point of death. Christians who commit suicide will spend eternal life in hell. By refusing this chip, you will be tortured then killed. For the unblelievers (nonChristians) you don’t only have to refuse the chip but also you will have to confess Jesus as your Lord and savior with your lips, ask of forgiveness of your sins and believe in your heart that is the Son of the God and He died for us, Amen.

nuclearboy:

@Aletheia:

Sorry to burst the bubble but could you please backtrack a few posts and consider the effect of this "conversation"? - derailment! Much as its commendable trying to explain truth, I know you realise a brick wall does not provide the most sympathetic pair of ears.

Your audience has made up his mind - NOTHING on earth will change it. It may sound heretical but I doubt heaven will bother.

Look at other threads. The same has happened - its a scheme powered by a guiding personage and the desired result is to stop true exchange of knowledge i.e. anti-spread of the Gospel. At the end, when you get tired (and irritated), it becomes mud-slinging

^^^OK.

@nopuqeater: Please open a new thread where we can thrash out your concerns.

@Yefet.
What do you believe exactly?
You posted this earlier:

Islam will be the 666 and either you convert or you be beheaded.

And subsequently you also wrote:

All people will be required to have a biochip.

If Islam is 666 (incidentally, a number held in esteem by Muslims), how can it at the same time be a RFID microchip? How do you reconcile this positions?

@Aletheia: « #32 on: Today at 01:18:32 AM »  

^^^And that is the point of the example of Abraham
Quote from: nopuqeater on Yesterday at 08:55:16 PM
This remind of the mercy of God on Abraham and his would be slaughtered son. The fact that Abraham and son submitted to the act, God did not do but ransome the child from death by replacing him with a ram, the symbolism of the slaughter. Please let me know your views. Others among christians will dance around the subjects or burst into a rage. I believe, hopefully that you are different. I wish you well. Maybe some knowledge will come out of this. Maybe some may just look at his or her religion in the absolute light of the Creator. Maybe.

The bolded is your answer to my statement below it. What do we know about Abraham dream and the action he took to slaughter his "only son".?

We definitely know that father and son knew as much as to the point that father actually down the son and intended to slaughter him. Neither father nor son or anyone at all involved (the mother of the son, who was a wife of Abraham), knew a ransome was coming in form of a ram, until they saw it. Did jesus know he was going to be made not to die (ramsomed) on the cross? No. Why? He lacked the knowledge of the future except what was revealed to him of that future. Every Messenger and or Prophet was in the same future not unknowing condition. Jesus was a pophet, a messenger to the children of Israel, both Israel and Judea nations, his "world". He preached to them, exclusively and stated that he was sent to them, specifically the spiritually lost among them.

He told them what must be done, returning to the OT laws and Prophets messages in their precise and prestine forms. He practised these himself, making clear the essence of each, and not just the lip services to them like just being in the "letters", only but not the spirit of them. Jesus said he did not know the future, but that same future, every bit of it is known by God, WHo was not standing there as Jesus spoke, he couldnt point Him out, but he  stated that He is in heaven. The chapter 5 verses 7 and 8 also indicate to us that jesus was saved from death on the cross, unless you will say that he was an accursed man, never to receive mercy from God. And you are certain that the implication of that will be equal to you calling him the 'devil" who all persons who believe in justice of God will say is doomed. To be accurse is the same as doomed. Hebrew Chapter 5 verses 7 and 8: Verse 7 Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplication with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear. Verse 8 Though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered.

You yourself used these words: Quote from: nopuqeater on Yesterday at 08:55:16 PM God did not do but ransome the child from death by replacing him with a ram, the symbolism of the slaughter. God was through this incident showing us that He himself would provide the ransom.

The ransome was a ram provided by God. What are you saying here? I dont under you, except what i wrote which is the obvious thing. The Jews accepted it. The Christian accepted based on jewish tradition og understand, or do you have your own separate from the jews? The muslim accepted it, except that the son and place were not Isaac who was never the only son of his father, a child birth after his elder brother Ismail, and the place was not Jerusalem, but Makka. A first child is always the only child!

As Abraham himself said: And Isaac said to his father Abraham, My father! And he said, Here am I, my son. He said, Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? Abraham said, God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son. So they went both of them together.

Abraham himself could not have said this, except a writer wrote what he thought the dialogue was between father and son. Look at the tone. The pattern of speech. Abraham would have said " My son Isaac said to me, his father, so we went, both of us together"

The similitude here was just as Isaac who was to die was ransomed by God Himself providing the substitute, even so will men sentenced to die be ransomed by God Himself proving a substitute:

Isaac was not the child of the slaughter. But ismail was. Ismail was the first child. He was the only child until his brother Isiaq (as) was born by Sarah. If the excitement and joy of first born was the greatest, it was the birth of Ismail (AS) that brought it to Ibrahim (AS), not the birth of Isiaq, who was the second son. Were you a father, you would have known that first child's birth, period is far more superior in happiness to the parent, or parents than any other after it. For Sarah, yes it was Isiaq. But the relationship of God with the family was through Ibrahim, the reason a person is classified as a Jew through mother lineage and not father's. If you look at the issue of the sacrifice of father Ibrahim, you will see that God did not waste a human life, instead animal that was eaten. But I thought that Mercy of God was in progression, cancelling animal sacrifice in OT, to no need for it in NT? Why regress to human sacrifice, when Ibrahim was spared of that in the first place? Should it not be in the worse case scenario animal sacrifice, why human? It is so barbaric!

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Indeed you will find this promise of God himself providing a substitute is the thread that runs throughout the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New Testament in Jesus of Nazareth:

Who was the speaker in the bolded? And how did the speaker made that leap of faith to make such a statement and assuming that it is Jesus that was the ransome? Moses suffered way more than Jesus ever did. Was he not the ransome who took all the children from the tyrannical king Pharaoh and egyptian citizenry through the 40 years, almost and never entered the "promised land"? Was that not worthy of ransome on the jews? Was jesus not a prophet to the same people from his own lips? John did not have a wife, a child and never committed any sin, yet he was beheaded.

We all agred he was killed. Was that not ransome, enough to completely lose your life, at least you said jesus ressurrected? No where in the OT is a man going to be killed for the ransome of the jews! Show it, please. The Jews would have said to their prophets tell Yahweh, jehovah, Eloi (by the lips of Jesus God is Eloi), we dont want a man to be killed. The Jews are bold you know. Didnt they tell Moses that he should tell God they wanted to see Him, face to face? And yet God did not kill them, but for lesser sins on them, He will kill an innocent man? The ransome if it ever existed in OT did not include ransoming for you a gentile from Nigeria. It was al for them, the special people, the children of israel. You are not a child of Israel. If you are from the 12 nations or tribes, then i apologise.

ESV: Revelation of John 5:9-10
And they sang a new song, saying,
Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,

and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.

May YHWH show you grace and mercy as you consider these words.

my main man, revelation song, automatically transmit to Jesus being the ransome? Please. Revelation is a make up after Jesus. Jesus cant even defend himself with the mob, while he was here. Now that he was already lifted up, failed in his promise to return in the lifetime of the disciples, you must be able to imagine that whatever was said behind him, he is free of it, and cant defend his honor against it, either. It was the job of the "another comforter" to defend him. Thats where Muhammad (AS) the another comforter came in with Quran from Allah (Eloi. Listen to the sound of the two, and if you throw away the accent, they become the same sounding word). Read the Quran and may The Creator God Almighty open your heart to pure guidance. Amin.

^^^
Like I said: Please open another thread (so we don't derail this one), where your concerns can be addressed. Or is your mind already made up and you don't want the facts to confuse you. Thanks.

@Aletheia: « #36 on: Today at 04:37:27 AM »  

^^^I am sorry but we seem to be talking at cross purposes. You need to clarify for me what you understand by "Rapture".

Rapture is an illlusion. For the simple fact that everyone wil die, rapture was just that rapture. In a layman language "its a fluke".

I would rather discuss what is in the Bible not the traditions of men as taught.

Then you should discuss what were actually stated by God, His Angels and His Messengers and prophets, and nothing more.

If you will notice I have been careful to put the word "rapture" in quotes in my posts for the reason that a lot of what is believed finds no support in the Bible.

If Paul stated something about jesus and what Peter the rock from the lips of Jesus is different from what Paul stated, who is correct in your opinion? Both cant be correct, but only one can be right if both of them were not wrong for the one who will be correct about Jesus will be Jesus among the three?
If peter said something about Jesus or about the God Who sent him, and that is different from what Jesus said, who should you take as correct between the two, if one is to be correct, for both of them cant be correct, but both can be wrong if what God says is different from both?
If Jesus said something about old testament, and this is different from what Moses said, who will be correct if one of them is, but both will be wrong if God Who sent each says something different from each, it will be God, the All Knower Who will be correct?
Altimately, Who is the Authority, except God Who sent Moses, then later sent Jesus, from Biblical view, sent the "another comforter"?
Show me the absolute support for "RAPTURE" from Yahweh, Jehovah, Eloi. Even less show it to me from His Angels. Or even lesser from any of the Messengers and or Prophets. Show it to me coming from the lips of Jesus. Show it to me in any of the "Gospel according to "such and such".

So to clarify my position:
1. Jesus is returning one day.[/quote[This does not constitute to rapture. When he return, people will still die, including believers and disbelievers.

2. When he returns, he will judge the world.

A person who did not minister to the world cant judge the world. By what authority is that? He was not a judge and it is God Who is the Absolute Judge.

3. At that time the dead in Christ will be raised and those who are alive will be caught up to meet him in the clouds.
As you no doubt know from reading the bible:

Books aftter Gospels, these are your proofs?

Jesus himself declared He will return some day (something you yourself believe as a Muslim).

Show me in that belief of mine that his return means rapture? "RApture" by your definition means never to die, but caught up, rise up to the sky. But then in earlier Biblical verse that you quoted, it says everyone will die once, but the believers will not die the second time. Where then is never to die even the first death which is what "Rapture" means? Or does rapture means not dying the second death? No one will die the second death, obedient and disobedient alike. Thats why punishment is forever in hell.

So why is that difficult for you to accept.

You are now double talking. You already know that I believe that Jesus will come back. Then you are sayng that I do not accept he will come back?

Secondly, you need to respond to some questions I posed to you earlier concerning the uniqueness of Jesus.

All your questions I have answered. You need to let me complete responses to your posts before you start responding to me. I will accord you the same latitude.

Concerning your latest post. Most of what you wrote in this last post, I have already addressed in my earlier posts, if only you would patiently read them. The problem here is as I see it that you come with an air of superiority thinking to overwhelm me with the force of your arguments. Please read what I have written, so that we can have a genuine dialogue and not a discourse of the deaf.

My man, the bolded is not me. First I patiently read your post to your bretheren, the christians on rapture. It was this that attracted me to your understanding, considering you to be a genuine individual who believes what he beliefs.

I am not here to sway you the least. A long time ago, around january 1990, I was at the JFK Airport, on a journey when a public phone rang near me. It was disturning my quiteness, so i picked it up. On the other end was a well known Nigerian "pastor" who as I said this was a public phone mentioned my name. Well i was going through a personal problem at that time, so it was a shock that somebody knew my name on the public phone. He was trying to seduce me to christianity, realising in our extended conversation that that I was unhappy. Well today, Alhamdulillah, my Islam is head and shoulders better than what it was then. Well, maybe God, Eloi from the lips of Jesus will open a heart here. If not not yours, and not mine, but somebody else's.

I will briefly address some of the above

You have done well. You have displayed an air of dentlemanliness and scholarship. i appreciate your attention and the time you gave. May God reward you with goodness for it. Amin.

;d ;d ;d

@Aletheia:

1. All men die, except true believers in Jesus Christ.

I thought Mary Mother of Jesus, Mary Margelene were believers in Jesus? Okay they are dead because they were women, since only men who believe will not die. So where is Peter the rock, who jesus spoke to? WAs he a disbeliever or he is alive somewhere? Please let me know where he is, now. How about the incredible Paul? Was he a disbeliever in Jesus he never met, hence he died? Or is he alive in some place on earth?

2. Christians are to live with the expectation of Jesus' sudden return as he himself commanded.
Matt 24-42-44 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Therefore it is not surprising if the disciples of old lived and spoke as if they expected His imminent return. Indeed believers of all ages are commanded by Jesus to live in such a fashion.

And after all of that each of them died. What does that tell you about yourself, who was 20 years ago much younger than what you are now? Will you not taste death? Of course you will. You were born. You must die.

3. Where do you find anyone saying that people alive in the 1st century are still alive today because Jesus is yet to return. Your question: "Show me a believer in Jesus as God who has lived for more than a 1000 years?" is ridiculous!

Not ridiculous, but to serve as inspiration for the eye of the mind to open up and see the reality instead of living in falsehood and fantasies. This shows that rapture will never happen for the first generation who saw jesus deserved not to die than you who now sheepishly cheapened the OT that Jesus said should not be abolished. Your abolishing it is contrary to Jesus words on the matter. Can we say a person who disobey is a true follower regardless of how he calibrated him/herself?

4. On the other hand, when Jesus returns, there will be believers alive! And so your other question: "Where is that one person to act as the litmus test of the possibility that Jesus will come and just maybe the person will be alive? Jusr one person."
shows that your anger with Christians clouds your emotions. If you a Muslim believes that there will be Muslims still living when Jesus returns, what about the true disciples of Jesus? Of course there will be several Christians still alive when Jesus returns!

My man, people being alive when Jesus returns does not mean that the "True disciples of Jesus (thats a new and updated name for true christians, though this is not a religion Jesus knew anything about. I remeber that there were 12 disciples, one of them betrayed him, another denied him, anothe doubted him. All of them are dead, long time), shall be "made to float in the air" (the liberal meaning of Rapture, or it is now the mere fact that there are people in middle east or earth is now to connote Rapture?), to meet jesus. You have no proof of that. No where in the statement of jesus can you show it.

@Aletheia: Please open it and title it as it pleases you. Its better that you do it since it is your Bible that we are discussing. You know the title you may wish fits the conversation

You and i can have our conversation while others have theirs on this current thread. But since it is the hope of others that they learn nothing, then please open the thread. I will find it and I will join you as much as I have energy, time and knowledge to do it, God Almighty willing.

I await the new thread.

Aletheia:

Romans 8:33-34 is not about the "rapture". It is about the justification of those who put their hope in Jesus.

why put it theref it is not germaine to what we are discussing?

I can see you have almost grasped the heart of the matter.

the heart of the matter of our conversation is rapture.

If only the eyes of your heart will be opened! "Why interceding except that you are a guilty soul? A righteous soul will not need intercession." You ask.
Before YHWH (the One True God whose Justice is Perfect), I and you and every man that ever lived (including Moses, Abraham, Mohammed) are guilty souls! And it is God Himself that declares this verdict:
Romans 3:10. as it is written: None is righteous, no, not one

post Jesus verses do not coe from Jesus, unless you are saying that these people communicated with God, just as Jesus His Prophet was? But then, if a child died just a few weeks after birth, was he sinful, just by being a human being? If a God consider such a helpless soul guilty when that soul has done no evil before terminated, is that Justice, and where is Mercy of God?

So yes, you and I and every man that ever lived (including Moses, Abraham, Mohammed) are in need of intercession.

Abraham was called by God "My Personal Friend". That friend will have to go to Jesus? Isnt that too heavy for your heart to accept, when his Friend is the Altimate Forgiver? Moses the Bible said spoke to God face to face, will need to go toJesus, too? I will leave Muhammad (AS) till another time. But remember Allah, in Arabic, Olorun in Yoruba, Chineke, in Igbo, Obangiji in Hausa, Yahweh in another semitic tonge, Eloi in Syriac called Muhammad His Messenger and Prophet, the seal and ender of both offices. Surely, you dont think he will have to go to Jesus who he said he led in Prayer at Masjid Aqsa, before the actual structure was built on that land, on his way to speak to Allah without Jibril between them?

Intercession that is available through faith in Jesus.

Muhammad said that the station of Jesus in heaven is the second, while Adam's is first, being our father. Idris is 3rd, and of course Moses was 6th, and Ibrahim was 7th. Who is not higher in their places than Jesus except our father (AS) who is on first? Definitely 3rd through 7 are higher than 2nd level.

On the Day of Judgment, He is my Hope.

I pray that you are not in sorrow that certain day. Amin.

Who are you depending on to intercede for you on that Day.

I have a messenger and prophet whose prophetic time that I exist. I am in the same religion as he was. That person is Muhammad (AS) the Messenger of God Almigty Allah (SWT).

Are you trusting in your "good works" which in the eyes of the Holy, Righteous and Perfectly Just God are filthier than the rags a woman uses for her menses.

the rag of a woman menses are not filthy. The work of commandments from God on man cant be filthy in the presence of that God. Otherwise he will be double talking for He asked you to do something that He holds no value for. Thats not justice or a sin of merifulness.



[Quote]1. You betray unfamiliarity with the Bible by supposing that Revelation was written by Paul.
2. If you had read on to verse 7 and beyond, you would have answered your question as to what happens after the 1000 years.[/quote]You will have to agree with me that the speaker of Revelation was neither Jesus or the God Who sent him. I used a 1000 years as an example because thats what you wrote, from your Bible. But infinity is Forever, much longer than a Billion years. What happens a billion years after your first and secon 1000 of years are over? Tell us about infinity, the forever.



[Quote] Revelation of John Chapter 20:4-6
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.[/quote]John you said. Where is any of this from Jesus or God? I wonder if Jesus completed his mission, the reason we have the post Jesus opinions of followers and followers of followers? Oh, the "another comforter" will have to correct, confirm what was true, hears from God/Eloi from the lips of jesus and speak exactly what he heard, etc, etc. Who is this human-like "another comforter"?

3. In what way does the verses bolded by you above oppose the fact that the saints are saved by the intercession of Jesus. I ask you: what is the testimony of Jesus that is referenced in the verse? Does it not refer to the fact that this ones died for holding that Jesus is Lord, and there is no name under heaven by which men can be saved. [And you know that in Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia et al, several who hold to the testimony of Jesus have been killed.]

Unfortunately, i do not follow the issues happening in Saudi Arabia. Being a muslim does not necessaqrily mean that I concentrate on saudi Arabia. I dont. Saints are already saved? But each person you call saint is dead. How are they saved from death that they experiend, already?

It is because Christ has saved them that they reign with Him.

Where do they reign and your obvious proofs, please.

Remember my earlier post:
Quote
John 11.25-26: Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Though he or she dies you said. I rest my case. Since there is no waking up yet for judgement, I see a deceit in that opinion. Who was the woman that jesus was talking to? Was there a "ressurrection and the life" concept before jesus among his people? No. If you know where it was expressed in OT, show it. A springboard without a fulcrum or something to counterlevel it will fall, very easily. The Children of israel were not expecting anyone of the concept of "ressurrection and the life" to come, but a "messiah". Stidy the Jewish belief and you will not find that they were expecting a "ressurrectiona nd a life" man, but a "messiah" man.

All who believe in Jesus of Nazareth and are saved will partake in the first resurrection which occurs at the time of his return as it is written: For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

man man, this is fantasy, except you can proof it that the Children of Israel were expecting this, and Moses who was the most important among their leadership said it before he departed. Otherwise, it is an opinion that has no concrete base.

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. . .

What benefit are the ones who are alive have over the ones who are still dead? What disadvantage[s] or suffering are the ones who asre not yet ressurected going through, and those who are ressurrected are spared of them? State them please. To just make a statement is not good enough.

Quote Revelation of John Chapter 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
This brings us back to the point I was making with Roman 8:33-34: Believers in Christ are not subject to Judgment, for the Judge Himself (Jesus of Nazareth) has declared us free from guilt. Will Jesus (whom you believe is coming back to judge the world) declare you guiltless on that Day.

Uhmmm. Reality is different from this. I remember a christian either yesterday or the day before responding on this board that when it was stated that Satan took jesus on a mountain, he said there is no mountain in jerusalem or the whole of Middle east. My first reaction was to respond to him and let him know that in a flat plain, a termite hill is like a mountain, and there is a chain of mountain, at least in the middle east, mount sinai, and yet there is arafat in Makka. He further stated that satan showed jesus the whole world, not realising as the Bible writers did not realise, though they called jesus God, or son of God, and obviously a prophet from God, to have been under the control of satan for so long and many times was a betrayal in reality of what they think Jesus was in their heart.

Will God Almight Eloi would have left His elect to such a ruinous condition that Shaitan toyed with him? obviously not. How then you ask me to look at the fantasy of those who became deluded and ran amock in their delution, since no one challenged them? Well the "another Comforter" should have challenged them if he was alive in their lifetime. So when he [as] came much later, he met their writings which he challeneged as untrue about God, His Angels, His prophets and messengers, and of course Jesus among them, and the Message and Commandment of God, Eloi on Mankind. Read te Quran and i will attend to youe new thread as much as Eloi God Almighty gives me power, knowledge and time to do.

As they say in the Army, "Aletheia, you don buy job!"

nopuqeater:

@Aletheia: Please open it and title it as it pleases you. Its better that you do it since it is your Bible that we are discussing. You know the title you may wish fits the conversation

You and i can have our conversation while others have theirs on this current thread. But since it is the hope of others that they learn nothing, then please open the thread. I will find it and I will join you as much as I have energy, time and knowledge to do it, God Almighty willing.

I await the new thread.

See it here

nuclearboy:

As they say in the Army, "Aletheia, you don buy job!"

I know!
But who knows, perhaps in these exchanges, God may show mercy to him (or some one else reading) and bring him to the Light of His Son.

I Peter 3:15. but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you;
Colossians 4:6. Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.

from: kris2glo on May 31, 2010, 11:28 AM

What do you know about the set of Christians that will be left behind after the rapture? Will there be any thing as such?

[/quote]

Yes ofcourse, Some Christians will be left, especially those who have not been fruitful in the Kingdom.

[quote] Or will all Christians be rapture at the same time?

There are about 5 to 6 different raptures in the bible at different times. All christians wont be raptured same time. There is 2 to 3 raptures of christian in the bible.

Joagbaje:

What do you know about the set of Christians that will be left behind after the rapture? Will there be any thing as such?
There are about 5 to 6 different raptures in the bible at different times. All christians wont be raptured same time. There is 2 to 3 raptures of christian in the bible.

^^^Please expound on what you wrote above so that others can learn from you.

aletheia:

^^^Please expound on what you wrote above so that others can learn from you.

@Joagbaje:

Aletheia was just joking. Please don't expound on that. Allow simple honest believers continue to believe the truth, thank you. Better not to add confusion to the lives of those who may be swayed by earthly gospel

@Aletheia: « #53 on: Yesterday at 06:18:55 PM »

Quote from: nuclearboy on Yesterday at 05:53:57 PM
As they say in the Army, "Aletheia, you don buy job!"

Aletheia response:[/b]I know!
[b]But who knows, perhaps in these exchanges, God may show mercy to him (or some one else reading) and bring him to the Light of His Son.

I Peter 3:15. but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you;
Colossians 4:6. Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.

So who is the wife of your God that bore Him a son? When you say something, there is a repercussion for it. Proof that you believe that jesus said it, even though it is clearly a post Jesus on the earth era statement, for Jesus would not be using past tense for himself, prior to any of the future event occuring.

Quote from: nopuqeater on Yesterday at 07:33:39 PM
The many here indicated "not all". So Jesus served many and a ransome for many, but in each case there was no "all". But then, how do we know that Jesus said this sentence himself?

Aletheia response:^^^True the text says many. The offer of salvation is available to all. Not everyone will accept it but many will receive the promise of Jesus. As it is written:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Aletheia affirmed the above Biblical statement by-Jesus' own words

The exchange that we had or still having depending on how you look at it, is by your design as the poster is not on the main page so that others can easily have access toi its content. Why s that, afterall, you want others to benefit. No? And read the tone of speech of 1 Peter 3: 15, it clearly indicates that not Jesus was the speaker, but someone else. It is the same with the verse tat you quoted about Jesus being the judge which I said it is not he that spoke. Below is the verse that mirror the pattern of speech in a third person like the one above, obviously from third person, while you claim that this one here belwo is from Jesus: Matthew 20:28 "even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." He will come again the second time in Justice to execute judgment on all the unrighteous

I sincerely pray to Eloi Who sent Jesus that something good comes out of all of these. Amin.

Joagbaje:

What do you know about the set of Christians that will be left behind after the rapture? Will there be any thing as such?
There are about 5 to 6 different raptures in the bible at different times. All christians wont be raptured same time. There is 2 to 3 raptures of christian in the bible.

2 - 3? I guess you are referring to the dead in Christ rising first before those who are alive and remain?

At the end when the Soin of Man is revealed (in other words he would be incognito in the world and would later be made known), the angels of God will elliminate the evil ones in the world and the righteous would live in the new world. There is nothing like rapture in the scripture. caught up in the air is a spiritual expression of being in one spiritual accord with God. If you live right and believe, you are aready caught up with Him in the air. By the way where is the air? Does it ,ean only the sky? The air means the world! There is air everywhere above the deep. Those not caught up are physically and spiritually condemmned to death and the angels will surely execute them. Shallow understanding and shallow teachings of the Bible has filled Christianity and it is not funny any more!

aletheia:

^^^Please expound on what you wrote above so that others can learn from you.

donnie:

2 - 3? I guess you are referring to the dead in Christ rising first before those who are alive and remain?

There are several raptures mentioned in the bible.

1.ENOCH

Ge 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

2.ELIJAH

2Kings 2:11
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

3.JESUSb]

[b]Acts 1:9
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

4.PAUL ? b] [b] ??

2Corinthians12 :2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

5.THE CHURCH

1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

6.THE TWO WITNESSES

Rev 11:11
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither.And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud;. and their enemies beheld them.

7.THE MANCHILD

Re 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

@nuclearboy

nuclearboy:

@Joagbaje:
Aletheia was just joking. Please don't expound on that. Allow simple honest believers continue to believe the truth, thank you. Better not to add confusion to the lives of those who may be swayed by earthly gospel

Oya talk now!!

@Joagbaje:

Even donnie said

donnie:

2 - 3? I guess you are referring to the dead in Christ rising first before those who are alive and remain?

Yet your delusions of "superiority" makes you think you have a right to ask me to "oya, talk now".

Why do you add folly upon folly? What are we talking about and where have you branched to? Last time I asked if you started smoking/drinking, you said it was an insult - look at your response

1. ENOCH is an answer to the OPs' question   
2. ELIJAH is also an answer to the OPs' question   
3. JESUS also is an answer to the OPs' question    (Oh ok, He is one of the Christians "left behind" -  )
4. PAUL also is an answer to the OPs' question   
5. The Church also is an answer to the OPs' question    (and is "left behind"?)
6. The two witnesses also is an answer to the OPs' question   
7. The man-child also is an answer to the OPs' question   

What of Satan? Why not add him too since he too has been somewhere in the heavens before  All this in response to WHAT?    The Op asked -

krisglo link=topic=454577.msg6377255:

What do you know about [size=14pt]the set of Christians[/size] that will be left behind after the rapture? Will there be any thing as such? Or will all Christians be rapture at the same time?  Tell the world what you know.

And a "re-generated" "pastor's" reply is that the two witnesses, Enoch, Elijah, Paul (while alive- he was raptured    and left behind the others, abi?) etc.

Ol'boy, whatever you're smoking is weapon's-grade , not chemical grade and should be used for exterminating disease. And you are a disgrace good representation of chris oyaks.

^^^ And are the examples of Enoch, Elijah etc within what is meant by "rapture"? PS he is very easy to read and second-guess because I knew all along that the things he listed were what he had in mind.

^^^ I agree but still, one would expect him to say something applicable to the issue at hand. I'm sure "donnie" is embarrassed and might even be wondering if truly, the dude is not on some mind-bending stuff