vescucci:

Lol. I thought it was a stand up comedy joke that Obama was the Anti-Christ. Lawd have mercy. Obama is the American President and as such his interest is America and not anyone's religious views. If he were hindu, would that make him less American. What am I even saying. If he were gay, does that make him more or less American? He would not then become President and impose his views on everyone. If he truly thinks there should be a gay pride month and declared as such, fine, he's a good President. If he doesn't think homosexuality is cool but declares a gay pride month regardless, then he is a great President.

Anti-Christ. Obama. Wow

I have issues with homosexuality sef. I'll find a thread to address them

Lol, Debosky. I can tell you with certainty that it is only on Nairaland, religion section that people make crazy claims and ask you to prove them wrong. It's amazing!

debosky:

Evasive? No - the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. Let the person making the link provide evidence.

Ok - so how come we are told the age of the earth by the so called 'literal creationists'? Are we told the age of the earth in Genesis 1? Sounds like an addition to me.

You are trying to force creationism into the message of salvation, [size=14pt]which is wrong[/size]. Jesus did not say to sinners 'accept the creation account before you can be saved', it says accept Jesus so you can be saved.

The term is very significant, since it attempts to make differentiations based on different interpretations of the bible. A general name is different from a term qualified by adjectives. Christians is a general name, while Pentecostal Christians, Orthodox Christians and others are man made creations - get the difference?

What do I disbelieve? God created it - the precise mechanism of creation is of little or no interest to me. Given the disconnect between what the so called 'literal creationists' believe (e.g. age of the earth) and what scientific research (e.g carbon dating) shows, I choose to focus on the core message of God being the creator, instead of having endless arguments and trying to pin down the exact age of the earth as a requirement for salvation.

Jesus didn't ask the robber on the Cross to accept Genesis as 'literal' (or whatever other term you might come up with) before he could enter paradise - all that was required was believing Jesus is the Son of God sent to take away the sins of the world.

debosky:

So women's liberation is now akin to Godless religion?

Heaven knows where you get your theories from - or did the bible tell you this as well?

'literal creationism' or whatever theory (because that is what it is - a theory) you adopt was not even the focus of Christ when he came, yet some people will want to make this the basis for Christianity. It is not - the basis is Jesus' death on the Cross to Redeem man to God, not the amount of time it took/didn't take God to create the world.

Even the bible says we know in part and will know fully in the future - if a person does not accept your particular interpretation, it might be a result of knowing in part - again this should not be the focus.

vescucci:

You're in the UK, no?

Why is your concern for America so steep? Are the remaining 6 billion less 300 million unworthy of God's direction or they already have it?

vescucci:

I'm not gay. In fact I'm homophobic but I respect people's right to do what they want if it's not in my face or to any other person's detriment.

The declaration of independence or some other national document has a phrase that includes 'the pursuit of happiness'. Why is this extremely hard to understand for people?

OLAADEGBU:

This song by Carman just sums up all I have been trying to pass across to folks here on NL.  America needs God again if it is to avert destruction.  A govt. that does not back the word of God is not fit to rule.

noetic16:

You also made a claim by simply disagreeing with him. what happened to objectivity? what happened to" disagreeing with people's submissions by simply presenting a superior argument"? where is your own superior argument or submission?

did u ask for the basis of this age stated? does the accounts of genesis 1 not add up to the present day?

another false prophet.

I asked u a simple question. . .can u separate the message of Jesus from His divinity? can u disbelieve His account of the creation but then believe His salvation?

You have believed an alien Jesus.
as usual u miss the point. The point is that the label people carry is insignificant in comparison to the contents. Literal creationism is in cognozance with the teachings of Christ. QED.

This is dishonest. LC is not primarily concerned with the age of the earth.

debosky:

I questioned his assertion - I have no need for a superior argument as yet, the initial claim needs to be investigated before a superior claim can be made.

debosky:
 
The age placed in thousands of years does NOT add up to carbon dating, if that method is correct.

debosky:

Very simple - Jesus did not ask ANYONE in the bible to believe the account of creation as being 'literal' or to be used to determine the age of the earth before believing in the salvation offered by Christ - John didn't preach it, neither did Jesus. All that was preached was repentance and acceptance of Christ. Kindly disprove this with biblical evidence.

debosky:

No - Jesus didn't teach you or anyone that the earth is thousands of years old, not millions, as you so called 'literal creationsists' attempt to do.

debosky:

Yes you are - you are primarily concerned with evolution and the age of the earth, even your big brother OLA won't deny this.

OLAADEGBU:

The result of disbelieving the first 11 chapters of the Bible in the book of Genesis is the reason you will want to defend all the isms (such as women rights to abort, gay rights, animal rights etc ) of the secular humanists who get together and decide what should be the values people should adhere to.  Christians get their values from the Moral Law especially as explained by Jesus Christ.  The book of Genesis is the foundation of all our moral and scriptural doctrines especially the gospel, if you take away Genesis you've taken away the gospel at its roots.

I would have to stand on the shoulders of giants here.  The so called carbon dating method doesn't give any evidence that the age of the earth is millions of years.  There are examples that these dating methods are faulty such as where it states that lava flows occured millions of years when the actual date was only a few hundred years old.  There was another instance where the carbon dating method for diamonds and coal which evolutionists claim were 4 millions of years old but when tested by carbon-14 it was found to be only thousands of years old.  There was also a RATE study carried out by some creation scientists which revealed that decay rates were faster in the past and this is evidence that confirms the Bible.

It is a fact that Jesus Christ quoted from the book of Genesis and this should prove to you that He took the account there literally and not metaphorical as some religious and atheistic skeptics would like to believe.  Read Matthew 19:3-6 and Mark 13:19 where Jesus indicated that human's suffering started very near the beginning of creation.  The parallel phrases of "from the foundation of the world" and "from the blood of Abel" in Luke 11:50-51 shows that He placed Abel near the beginning of creation and not billions of years after the beginning.

Since you don't agree that it is thousands nor millions are you saying it is billions of years old? Jesus said In Mark 10:6,

"but from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female." 

Your acceptance of an old age for the earth leaves the evolutionary system intact even though you may say that you don't agree with it.  How would you explain away Romans 5:12; 1 Cor. 15 and Genesis 3:22-23 which tells us that Adam's sin led to physical and spiritual death respectively?  In 1 Corinthians. 15 the death of the Last Adam is compared with the death of the first Adam.  The reason Jesus had to suffer physical death for man's sin is because Adam the first man, died physically because of sin. 

If you believe that the age of the earth is millions of years then you believe that there was death before Adam's sin and that destroys the basis of the gospel.  The Bible categorically states that man's rebellious actions led to death and corruption of the universe, I don't see how you can dismiss this historical fact and say that it does not matter, if the book of Genesis cannot be trusted why should unbelievers believe other parts of the Bible especially the salvation message?

debosky:

I have not taken anything away - it is highly presumptuous of you to claim any such thing. I have not disbelieved anything, all I have said is that a force-fitted interpretation to achieve a goal that the scriptures might not have been intended for (i.e. determining the age of the earth) may lead to erroneous conclusions.

debosky:

I never said carbon dating was infallible, it is just ONE example of the various pieces of evidence pointing to an earth older than just a thousand years old. However, unlike some so called 'literal creationists', if it does turn out that the earth is older than is thought from potentially over zealous interpretation of the bible, my faith will remain intact because the age of the earth is not even close to being an important part of my faith.

debosky:

Near the very beginning - how near? Two years? 5 years? Was man the first thing to be created? How long a period did the earth stay without form or void? Just how long did Adam live in the garden before things started going wrong? I always laugh when people like you use terms like 'near the beginning' and in the next breath use the bible to arrive at exact dates as to the age of the earth.

debosky:

I don't know what 'very near the beginning' means, but I do know Jesus wasn't interested in arguing the age of the earth as you are wont to do. It is not a very relevant question in the scheme of things - faith in Jesus is.

debosky:

Very simple - I DON'T KNOW. The bible doesn't tell us how old it is, people are trying to do their own calculations, which are prone to serious errors. Again, regarding the verse you are quoting, the beginning of creation was not the creation of man, but on the 6th day was it not? Was the earth not created before the male and female were created?

debosky:

It doesn't - you cannot tell me what I believe or don't believe. I don't understand everything, but it rankles when so called 'literal creationists' try to dictate how others MUST think for their faith to be valid, when even JESUS didn't lay such restrictions. I keep an open mind on the matter of the age of the earth, just like I keep an open mind about how DNA was formed, and gravity and other natural laws not explicitly described in the bible.

debosky:

Who has talked about death before Adam? Again, you go making arguments with yourself - all I've pointed out is that there is an inconsistency between YOUR interpretation of biblical accounts and other evidence out there. I have not dismissed any historical fact, neither have I told you I believe the earth is a million years old.

debosky:

The salvation message is trusted because of its impact on the lives of men, not because it determines the age of the earth, or that it gives the detailed step by step account of why there are x number of species of animals available on the face of the earth.

debosky:

Jesus talked about believing because of what people experienced during their time with him and the time afterwards, and the display of God's power, not on the ability of Genesis to estimate the age of the earth or explain every principle of nature.

manny4life:

You just figured this all by yourself? I know that you are a religious analyst; however you have not shown any practical evidence that U.S. is on a critical path (not theory) for destruction.

manny4life:

Christianity is not about a nation because you can not direct a nation of 300million on one path to follow, but Christianity and faith is a personal relationship with GOD.

manny4life:

Just because 10% or less of of the American population is gay, does not mean we headed for destruction, neither does it explain that 90% of the "ungay" are all Christians living righteously.

manny4life:

I hope you see the balance, just because I'm not gay does not mean I don't sin, neither does it mean my sin is any less that that of a gay person. Also, just because I might not live a perfect Christian live doesn't mean 20 other people of whom 5 are real Christians are headed for destruction.

OLAADEGBU:

In case you don't know, just within 24hrs that Obama indicated that his government would no longer take sides with Israel the oil spill erupted.  You don't know the implications of Obama's unbiblical declaration because if you do you will get on your knees and pray that the Lord would heal your land

debosky:

Wow! The oil spill is punishment for failing to support Israel (despite the fact that Israel kills children daily in Gaza- I guess God supports that? )

Your delusion has reached astronomical levels.

OLAADEGBU:

Under the government of George Bush when they pressured Israel into evacuating Gaza do you know what happened the very next day?  A tropical depression formed and Hurricane Katrina, which became the largest disaster in the US history.  Over a million people were evacuated from their homes costing close to $200 billion.  If you read your Bible you will find out what God said in Zechariah 12:9 and if prayers are not prayed for the present president who is about to sign some other diabolical laws into the legislation only God know what will happen next. Read more in the link below:

OLAADEGBU:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1055/1055_01.asp

OLAADEGBU:

In case you don't know, just within 24hrs that Obama indicated that his government would no longer take sides with Israel the oil spill erupted.  You don't know the implications of Obama's unbiblical declaration because if you do you will get on your knees and pray that the Lord would heal your land.