The Higher National Diploma (HND) is not equivalent to a university degree, the Head of the Civil Service of the Federation Stephen Oronsaye has said.

Answering questions yesterday in Abuja, the head of service said: "It is not the same curriculum; that is the truth."

He said the Federal Ministry of Education was currently working on a scheme to enable HND graduates to spend an additional year to obtain "something that will be equivalent to B.Sc or B.Ed."

"Let me also say this to you, that there is a body, the National Council on Establishments where this thing was tabled.

"And unanimously, all of them said it cannot be equal; and that is the highest body to take this decision," he added.

However, the head of service, who said he knew of a white paper mandating the equation of both qualifications, advised HND holders to "better themselves".

"I know that the Ministry of Education is already doing something through the NUC.

"The holders of the HND or OND should actually avail themselves of that opportunity to better themselves so that they can aspire to get to grade level 17.

"I am not one of those who will shy away from saying it the way it is," Oronsaye said.

He said it was not true that the civil service system had created bottlenecks for those who wished to improve themselves.


---------------

After reading this moronic statement, by no other than the so-called top dog, in the Nigerian public service, any wonder we are where we are today in Nigeria?

The older generation in Nigeria and Africa, used to be the powerhouse, the driving force, and demanded / commanded respect from the younger ones. Unfortunately, that time has now long gone. We now have the Oronsanyes and IBBs demanding and looking to hold us to ransome, based on seniority.  And then, we have to take this kak from them?  These people have destroyed us in Naija!

Na wa ooooo

Please guys, what do you think of this silly statement and belief?

Coming from a man, who was saddled with the responsibility by President Yar'Adua (bless him), with changing this (very) backward philosophy of our public sector to impede the progression of workers from reaching (or aspiring to reach) the top hierarchy of the civil service, those ones who have graduated from polytechnic and colleges of technology, on account of being academically inferior, inferior to university graduates, which university?  for where?  universities in Nigeria?  Na wa ya! 

Over to you guys,

franko!:


Please guys, what do you think of this silly statement and belief?

Coming from a man, who was saddled with the responsibility by President Yar'Adua (bless him), with changing this (very) backward philosophy of our public sector to impede the progression of workers from reaching (or aspiring to reach) the top hierarchy of the civil service, those ones who have graduated from polytechnic and colleges of technology, on account of being academically inferior, inferior to university graduates, which university?  for where?  universities in Nigeria?  Na wa ya! 

Over to you guys,

Of course, HND is inferior to University degree. . . . .Stephen Oransanye is very correct!!!
The entry examination that takes you into a University is much harder than the cheap exam that takes you into a Polytechnic.
Under no circumstances should the two be compared.
It's like comparing Ferrarri to a pregnant donkey on a race-course.

The man is very correct.it's better to have a bachelor's degree than hnd.even in the civil service,the grade level of a bsc older is [b]higher than hnd

~Sauron~:

Of course, HND is inferior to University degree. . . . .Stephen Oransanye is very correct!!!
The entry examination that takes you into a University is much harder than the cheap exam that takes you into a Polytechnic.
Under normal circumstances should the two be compared.
It's like comparing Ferrarri to a VW Jetta on a race-course.

if you said this like five years back i would have agreed with ya
but not in this modern day were the poly certificate gets you a quick job in naija
and perhaps the poly students gat more skills than the uni cause most of their works are based on practical

y me:

if you said this like five years back i would have agreed with ya
but not in this modern day were the poly certificate gets you a quick job in naija
and perhaps the poly students gat more skills than the uni cause most of their works are based on practical

Poly Students are trained to be technicians. . . . . .University students are trained to be engineers(in lay man's explanation).

That's the difference. . . . . .I don't need to know how to solder a copper wire to a micro-processor. . . .I draw the schematics, a technician(Poly Student) gets the job done.

y me:

if you said this like five years back i would have agreed with ya
but not in this modern day were the poly certificate gets you a quick job in naija
and perhaps the poly students gat more skills than the uni cause most of their works are based on practical

tell me what is hard in getting admission in Nd.most people settled for it after serious frustration from jamb and of recent,post-ume.
the job stuff is just a facade.banks preferred to employ an hnd holder over a bsc because of the low quality of their results.they are subjected to cheap labour anywhere in nigeria

~Bluetooth:

tell me what is hard in getting admission in Nd.most people settled for it after serious frustration from jamb and of recent,post-ume.
the job stuff is just a facade.banks preferred to employ an hnd holder over a bsc because of the low quality of their results.they are subjected to cheap labour anywhere in nigeria

~Bluetooth:

tell me what is hard in getting admission in Nd.the job stuff is just a facade.banks preferred to employ an hnd holder over a bsc because of the low quality of their results.they are subjected to cheap labour anywhere in nigeria

thats the point!!!!!
do you know how many graduates out there are dieing to get a job not minding the amount he/she is gonna get?
naija is falling really bad

most people settled for it after serious frustration from jamb and of recent,post-ume.

this rings a bell

y me:

thats the point!!!!!
do you know how many graduates out there are dieing to get a job not minding the amount he/she is gonna get?
naija is falling really bad

I'd rather stay at home than get underpaid. . . .
WTF? After spending how many years in some dinghy laboratory working with obsolete oscilloscopes? No fecking way.

~Sauron~:

Poly Students are trained to be technicians. . . . . .University students are trained to be engineers(in lay man's explanation).
That's the difference. . . . . .I don't need to know how to solder a copper wire to a micro-processor. . . .I draw the schematics, a technician(Poly Student) gets the job done.

Death
just be care ful so you dont get roasted by copper wire

~Sauron~:

I'd rather stay at home than get underpaid. . . .
WTF? After spending how many years in some dinghy laboratory working with obsolete oscilloscopes? No fecking way.

when the pressure gets to you, you wil have no option than to take whatever comes your way
you think say all this grados wey dey go carry sand nah their eye dem take dey do am, noooooooo o nah condition make cray fish bend

y me:

thats the point!!!!!
do you know how many graduates out there are dieing to get a job not minding the amount he/she is gonna get?
naija is falling really bad
this rings a bell

check out this fact.in ministries,a bsc holder is employed on level 8 while hnd is given level 7 and cant rise past level 15, meaning that an hnd holder cannot rise to become a permanent aecretary.what a shame.

y me:

Death
just be care ful so you dont get roasted by copper wire

I was born an engineer. . . . .copper wires don't scare me.

when the pressure gets to you, you wil have no option than to take whatever comes your way
you think say all this grados wey dey go carry sand nah their eye dem take dey do am, noooooooo o nah condition make cray fish bend

All those grados carrying sand should go and do their Masters or do some certification courses to keep them afloat.
The job market is competitive in Naija - one needs more qualifications to stay ahead of others.

masters ke? who go dash them. they always settle for pgd

I don't see the big deal. Both are important. One is designed to cater for theory approach, and one is more a hands-on and less theory approach. Both are as important as one another.

If I am an employer, your qualification means poo to me if you cannot do the job. But I guess, with naija, it is all about names, appellations, honours and what not.

Sauron,

You are a Big fool,
You re the reason Nigeria is in the dark today.
Mumu.
Both degrees teach u how to think critically. The annoyin part of the issue is that our leaders like oronsaye enjoyed freee education and scholarships in their time after finishing University of Ibadan. They never ever wrote apititude test or queue to write job exams. Immediately after they graduate -there was a job waitin for them. They got to the top - and bastardize the system that brought them to the top. They spoilt every tin for our generation. These peopel are selfish. Today, as a graduate u struggle to get anytin dat u possess. Nobody talk of scholarship any more. The govt dont giv a Bleep abt u. Instead the govt feeds on u. Becos it has been taken over by these selfish basterds as Oronsanye.

fegflu:

Sauron,

You are a Big fool,
You re the reason Nigeria is in the dark today.
Mumu.
Both degrees teach u how to think critically. The annoyin part of the issue is that our leaders like oronsaye enjoyed freee education and scholarships in their time after finishing University of Ibadan. They never ever wrote apititude test or queue to write job exams. Immediately after they graduate -there was a job waitin for them. They got to the top - and bastardize the system that brought them to the top. They spoilt every tin for our generation. These peopel are selfish. Today, as a graduate u struggle to get anytin dat u possess. Nobody talk of scholarship any more. The govt dont giv a bleep abt u. Instead the govt feeds on u. Becos it has been taken over by these selfish basterds as Oronsanye.

you sound frustrated like an hnd holder.sorry,i know how you feel

fegflu:

Sauron,
You are a Big fool,
You re the reason Nigeria is in the dark today.
Mumu.

Both the donor and the recipient of your Y-chromosomes are genetically foolish.
When you ask them, they will admit

Both degrees teach u how to think critically. The annoyin part of the issue is that our leaders like oronsaye enjoyed freee education and scholarships in their time after finishing University of Ibadan. They never ever wrote apititude test or queue to write job exams. Immediately after they graduate -there was a job waitin for them. They got to the top - and bastardize the system that brought them to the top.

You are disgustingly silly. . . . .
Only a slowpoke(like yourself) would equate what a degree holder has learnt to what an HND holder learnt in his obsolete institution.
What are we talking about here? How critical do you morons think? What is the caliber of your lecturers in the Poly?
What devices have they laid their crooked hands on? How many Polytechnic lecturers have seen a ROUTER before in Nigeria?
You musta been born foolish.

They spoilt every tin for our generation. These peopel are selfish. Today, as a graduate u struggle to get anytin dat u possess. Nobody talk of scholarship any more. The govt dont giv a bleep abt u. Instead the govt feeds on u. Becos it has been taken over by these selfish basterds as Oronsanye.

You are the airhead, i am afraid.
Were you blind when you chose the option to attend a Polytechnic when millions of people queue for years to get into a University.
A lot of applicants waited at home for years to get into Uni when several Polytechnics offered em admission. . . . .They knew the dynamics of the Naija job market and they were aware if they choose the cheaper option(polytechnic), they would wait for years to get a job. . . .

It's not too late for you - go and get a UME form and start again.
Your frustration is not going to change what is happening.
U can rant from Lagos to Laos. . . . . .U will only shorten your life-span with your idiotic rants.
Ewu Ara!!!!

Sauron,

wat has ur university degree given u, has it helpd to improve ur livin condition.

i dnt need UME bro. becos the donors of my Y chromosomes is a resident of the states.

i never schooled in nigeria. i only sympathise wit how poverty and bad leadership has eaten deep in the way pple reason over there.

think abt it- even amidst the poverty over there u still become racist among your selves, BSC is better than HND,

Even the university degree can u do anytin meaniful with it.

The world dont even regard ur educational institutions that award dis degree.

Wake up

I am so happy thay u guys have really taken time to vent ur ideas about this issue big time!

~Sauron~:

Of course, HND is inferior to University degree. . . . .Stephen Oransanye is very correct!!!
The entry examination that takes you into a University is much harder than the cheap exam that takes you into a Polytechnic.
Under no circumstances should the two be compared.
It's like comparing Ferrarri to a pregnant donkey on a race-course.

But, i think a lot of the people here seem to be missing the point. The penny hasnt dropped yet for guys in Naija.  I suspect we would remain backward, for as long as we continue to reason that, your aptitude, and how useful one could be to society, has anythink whatsover to do with how easy, or difficult it may have taken one to enter (or even exit) an institution - uni or poly/techo.  Guys, thinking like that is simply incredible!

Meanwhile, in rational socities, where they respond to trends in a proper, balanced-thinking manner, heres a clue;

'Bob the builder' tech schools for practical teens
Tim Ross, Education Correspondent
23.06.10


Ministers are backing a new generation of technical schools to train bricklayers, plumbers and mechanics.





Students aged 12 and 13 will be encouraged to think about "learning by doing" and given the option to quit mainstream comprehensives to study at the new university-sponsored colleges.

Under the apprenticeship-style plan, pupils who prefer practical subjects will spend mornings with "a hammer in their hands", and afternoons studying English, maths, science and IT.

The programme for up to 100 University Technical Colleges, each with 600 pupils, has been drawn up by Margaret Thatcher's former education secretary, Lord Baker, and has generated keen interest from the Government.

It would mark a dramatic revival of the system of the Fifties and Sixties when children attended schools geared to either academic or practical learning. But critics fear the new colleges will create a two-tier system that denies teenagers a broad education. In London, moves are already under way to set up a college for 14- to 19-year-olds, sponsored by the University of Greenwich, with another being considered in Brixton. Skills Minister john Hayes said: "I am very interested in what Kenneth Baker has said. We have a very clear academic pathway which we respect. We need a vocational pathway which is just as rigorous."

Lord Baker said: "We are massively short of technicians. If we are going to build nuclear power stations, high-speed rail links, Crossrail and wind farms, we need technicians.

"We used to have technical schools in the Fifties and Sixties and they disappeared. Germany did not make the same mistake and their technical colleges are among their most popular schools. David Cameron likes [the colleges] because they help with his 'broken society'. They can catch youngsters at 13 or 14 who are fed up with their local comprehensive where they are not studying much practical stuff."

But Christine Blower general secretary of the National Union of Teachers, said: "Attempting to separate 'technical' or 'vocational' education from mainstream schools will lead to a two-tier system with technical schools being seen as the poor cousin. While the colleges will teach English, maths, science and IT alongside 'technical studies' they will not teach languages and creative subjects."

* Despite A-grades at GCSE, Natasha McDonald, above, found academic study too deskbound. The 27-year-old from Tottenham said: “I didn't like sitting in class the whole day. I had to do something hands-on.” After an advanced apprenticeship in plumbing at the College of Haringey, Enfield and North East London, she won the Edge charity's vocational student of the year award, and now renovates social housing for Homes for Haringey.

------------

~Bluetooth:

The man is very correct.it's better to have a bachelor's degree than hnd.even in the civil service,the grade level of a bsc older is [b]higher than hnd

In the UK, what you often find, is job ads for tecchies or engineers generally making it very clear, they prefer someone who has gone though the apprenticeship system (which more often than not, is twined with a poly or local tech for validation - as in HND --> BSc), rather than the tedious and generally stuffy BSc-only route which we copied, but has been left behind in the real world.

~Sauron~:

Poly Students are trained to be technicians. . . . . .University students are trained to be engineers(in lay man's explanation).

That's the difference. . . . . .I don't need to know how to solder a copper wire to a micro-processor. . . .I draw the schematics, a technician(Poly Student) gets the job done.

Now, please guys, dont get me wrong, i am in no way saying BSc Eng is not good or significant. It is but, it generally is for armachait engineers. These are better suited for engineering work related to design, not implementation, and also for engineering work in a society that has matured, in terms of development and infrastructure.

BSc Eng cannot be set above HND, simply on acount of entry and course rigour, thats mad!

The lady above is a youngster who has chose the route of entry theough tecchie skills and, will rise to the top like any uni engineer, both pay and job progression-wise if she does everything else right and, is lucky!

ABsolutely no Arrow will come and keep her (or a he) down, simply on acount of some backwatd and irresponsible civil service rule or mentality.

Imagine how much our civil service brings us back in Naija, and we listen to them when they make these silly decisions?

Na wa

Naija, wakey wakey,

fegflu:

Sauron,
wat has your university degree given u, has it helpd to improve your livin condition.
i dnt need UME bro. becos the donors of my Y chromosomes is a resident of the states.
i never schooled in nigeria. i only sympathise wit how poverty and bad leadership has eaten deep in the way pple reason over there.

think abt it- even amidst the poverty over there u still become racist among your selves, BSC is better than HND,
Even the university degree can u do anytin meaniful with it.
The world dont even regard your educational institutions that award dis degree.
Wake up

U completely miss the point. . . . .
The discrimination has always been there in Nigeria - it didn't start today.
So it is moronic for anyone who opted going into a Polytechnic in spite of being aware that he might likely be discriminated against to start ranting.

~Sauron~:

U completely miss the point. . . . .
The discrimination has always been there in Nigeria - it didn't start today.
So it is moronic for anyone who opted going into a Polytechnic in spite of being aware that he might likely be discriminated against to start ranting.

Not really moronic, I had always wanted to attend Yaba Tech. so I had my HND there, I also loved UI and I had my Masters there. It is by applying yourself to whatever you are doing that matters. Polytechnic graduates are not technicians, they are technologists, it is those who attend technical colleges that you will call technicians. Polytechnic graduate o, University graduate o, they are all doing technician's work in Nigeria. The oransanye of a guy should be more concerned about how competent people are, I am sure that in only a few cases will you need specialists in the Civil Service, a lot of their functions require good intellect and an ability to learn. There were a lot of Chartered accountants in Yaba Tech. that could not pass their HND accounting exams ( they actually took the case to a Radio Station), some polytechnic courses have better value in the job market. I hope I have not ranted.

hercules07:

Not really moronic, I had always wanted to attend Yaba Tech. so I had my HND there, I also loved UI and I had my Masters there. It is by applying yourself to whatever you are doing that matters.

And i am reiterating what they do in Polytechnics is below standard.
If you apply yourself 100% to sub-standard training, you will still remain poorly trained.

Polytechnic graduates are not technicians, they are technologists, it is those who attend technical colleges that you will call technicians. Polytechnic graduate o, University graduate o, they are all doing technician's work in Nigeria.

I disagree. . . . . .
The courses you took in Yabatech would definitely be easier than what your contemporaries took in UNILAG or OAU.
There's no way you can compare the two - no matter how you argue it.
One is easier to get into than the other. . . . .There's a reason for that!!!

The oransanye of a guy should be more concerned about how competent people are, I am sure that in only a few cases will you need specialists in the Civil Service, a lot of their functions require good intellect and an ability to learn. There were a lot of Chartered accountants in Yaba Tech. that could not pass their HND accounting exams ( they actually took the case to a Radio Station), some polytechnic courses have better value in the job market. I hope I have not ranted.

U have half-ranted.

Oronsaye is right, these are the differences:

University= Bsc
National Diploma=Technicians
Higher National Diploma=Technologist


but

The truth about about Nigeria today is that:
University=Technicians=Technologist
Higher national Diploma= Bsc=Technicains
National Diploma=Technogist

Why? because the Nigerian system is not organized

only in nigeria will people be able to spout the bs that hnd is the same as bsc

not surprising though, in a country where every illiterate Arrow who can twist two wires together is referred to as an 'engineer' , even by people who should know better.



we have one old drafter in my department who loves to refer to himself as an architect . e is so full of himself because he can do some basic autocad, and he does plenty of shakara for everbody.he can't do any shakara for me though, because i can run autocad rings around him

that is what it has come to - to be respected by our hnd technicians we have to show them that we too can draw wire and that we do not need them in anyway. or one needs a situation in which one clearly demonstrated the superiority of theory over their so called practical. the opportunities usually come. most technicians have no idea about cable sizing /selection for facilities. they can burn your entire facility for you

~Sauron~:

And i am reiterating what they do in Polytechnics is below standard.
If you apply yourself 100% to sub-standard training, you will still remain poorly trained.


I disagree. . . . . .
The courses you took in Yabatech would definitely be easier than what your contemporaries took in UNILAG or OAU.
There's no way you can compare the two - no matter how you argue it.
One is easier to get into than the other. . . . .There's a reason for that!!!

U have half-ranted.

Let me do the other half of the ranting , so that it will be whole. What they do in Nigerian Higher Institutions are sub-standard, I have had the benefit of the two. The courses I took in Yabatech were not easier, for instance, Chartered Accountants were failing HND1 accounting courses, CHARTERED ACCOUNTANTS. As per getting into higher institutions, Poly Jamb questions in 1992 were marginally easier but my UME grades were good enough for first list admission at any university in Nigeria in 1993 ( did not accept the admission because I already got a job with an IT firm in Lagos for my 1 year IT in advance).

Let me do the other half of the ranting  , so that it will be whole. What they do in Nigerian Higher Institutions are sub-standard, I have had the benefit of the two. The courses I took in Yabatech were not easier, for instance, Chartered Accountants were failing HND1 accounting courses, CHARTERED ACCOUNTANTS. As per getting into higher institutions, Poly Jamb questions in 1992 were marginally easier but my UME grades were good enough for first list admission at any university in Nigeria in 1993 ( did not accept the admission because I already got a job with an IT firm in Lagos for my 1 year IT in advance).
[quote][/quote]In short, you settled for HND. How

hercules07:

Let me do the other half of the ranting , so that it will be whole. What they do in Nigerian Higher Institutions are sub-standard, I have had the benefit of the two.

What they do in Naija Higher Institutions are sub-standard, i agree with that.
However, what they do in the Polytechnics is more sub-standard than the University.
Even a newly born ewe knows this.

The courses I took in Yabatech were not easier, for instance, Chartered Accountants were failing HND1 accounting courses, CHARTERED ACCOUNTANTS.

If the chartered accountants scored 35% in your HND1 courses, they would score 5% in the B.Sc courses in the Uni.

As per getting into higher institutions, Poly Jamb questions in 1992 were marginally easier but my UME grades were good enough for first list admission at any university in Nigeria in 1993 ( did not accept the admission because I already got a job with an IT firm in Lagos for my 1 year IT in advance).

Poly Jamb questions are marginally easier? Stop kidding me, amigo.
The PCE questions are easier than JSSS exams. It's generally designed for the not-too-intelligent applicants.

OMG see them don use insult finish this thread am out of here

~Sauron~:

What they do in Naija Higher Institutions are sub-standard, i agree with that.
However, what they do in the Polytechnics is more sub-standard than the University.
Even a newly born ewe knows this.


If the chartered accountants scored 35% in your HND1 courses, they would score 5% in the B.Sc courses in the Uni.

Poly Jamb questions are marginally easier? Stop kidding me, amigo.
The PCE questions are easier than JSSS exams. It's generally designed for the not-too-intelligent applicants.

I have experiences of both so I can relate to the two, the University guys were not as hot as the Poly guys in accounting because a lot of the poly guys had done their ICAN during the Intern stage and had practical knowledge of accounting, despite this, they were failing the courses, if the uni guys had attempted the same question, na 0% dem go get o. I can see the smiley on your last statement so I know you are kidding. I have made up my mind to go for another masters outside because I know that what I have been fed in Nigeria is rubbish ( Poly and Uni)

hercules07:

I have experiences of both so I can relate to the two, the University guys were not as hot as the Poly guys in accounting because a lot of the poly guys had done their ICAN during the Intern stage and had practical knowledge of accounting, despite this, they were failing the courses, if the uni guys had attempted the same question, na 0% dem go get o. I can see the smiley on your last statement so I know you are kidding. I have made up my mind to go for another masters outside because I know that what I have been fed in Nigeria is rubbish ( Poly and Uni)

I dunno what to say. . . . .

A lot of Poly guys had done their ICAN(PROFESSIONAL COURSE) and you expect them not to have more knowledge than their counterparts in the Uni?
I know you have to defend your certificate but you are getting a bit desperate.
There's no way a B.Sc student wouldn't have more knowledge than the HND student.

What is HND equivalent to in the West?