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Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? - Religion - Nairaland

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Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by blkmum700: 1:09am On Apr 17, 2007
Hey Guys both Muslim and Christian,Does Hell fire Exist?i'm seating in front of my house on sunday when some Jeovan withess come to preach for me and we started talking at the end of the talking they are telling me that Hell fire does not exist and God does not have Plan to put anyone in hell fire and we started Argument and they ask me if i have ever come accross any where in the bible that God says sinners we go to hell fire and they also ask me that i can not have children and just because they offend me and throw them in the fire thats is not possible they end up convicing me that hell fire does not exist then i started thinking that which bible does orther churches read that make them say hell fire exist?because i use to watched some christian film where people who do Bad things are put in Hell fire ?

if Hell Fire Exist t ,which chapter and Verse is it in the bible ?still have more to post here.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by stimulus(m): 1:59am On Apr 17, 2007
blkmum700:

if Hell Fire Exist t ,which chapter and Verse is it in the bible ?still have more to post here.


Matt. 3:10 - And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matt. 3:12 - Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Matt. 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matt. 13:49 & 50 - So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matt. 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mark 9:43 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. (see verses 44 -48 ).

Rev. 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You can follow the discussion here, or visit the thread to read what others have debated on the subject: Hell Fire: A Twisted Truth Untangled
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by MP007(m): 7:40am On Apr 20, 2007
wow! didnt know that.lets wait , The judgement day is starting to scare me oo, heaven is real, hell is real, yall nee to watch JVI on Tbn
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by PoDeep(m): 8:53am On Apr 20, 2007
JVI on TBN? Isn't that supposed to be JCTV or better yet HELL'S BELLS on TBN, the programme is very revealing. U've got to see it.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by stimulus(m): 10:35am On Apr 20, 2007
JVI - Jack Van Impe.

I enjoy Hal Lindsey as well.

HELL BELLS should make careless souls think - very revealing.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by Viable(m): 4:22pm On Apr 21, 2007
RE-HELL FIRE DOES NOT EXIST ACCORDING TO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES. IS IT TRUE?           I want to address this question from the biblical point of view. Hell fire is an event and not a place as so many christian denominations do teach today. One pastor said that sinners will be burning forever and ever that is not what the bible says. The bible says unquenchable fire, that is a fire which nobody can put off untill it consume every sinner. that means that sinners will be burnt up with fire which noone can put off. see Isaiah 24;1-6 and jude verse 7 where the bible mentioned the destruction of sodom and gomorrha as example of eternal fire. The question for anyone who says that hell fire will burn forever, the question for such person is , is sodom and gomorrha still burning till today? So if the Jehovah's Witnesses told you that hell fire is not a place as many christians teaches today, they are right but if they taught you that GOD will not punish sinners to death with fire, they are wrong,
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by stimulus(m): 5:20pm On Apr 21, 2007
Hi @Viable,

Viable:

Hell fire is an event and not a place as so many christian denominations do teach today

Did the Bible describe the lake of fire in Rev. 20:10 as an event and not a place? Were the devil and his rebellious host cast into an event or into a place?

Viable:

The bible says unquenchable fire, that is a fire which nobody can put off untill it consume every sinner. that means that sinners will be burnt up with fire which noone can put off

Where did the Bible say "UNTIL" it has consumed every sinner, when in fact it says day and night for ever and ever?

Viable:

see Isaiah 24;1-6 and jude verse 7 where the bible mentioned the destruction of sodom and gomorrha as example of eternal fire

We don't read of what you described in Isaiah 24:1-6. The 6th verse says: "Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left." The earth and lake of fire are not the same place; nobody is left who is cast into the lake of fire.

Viable:

So if the Jehovah's Witnesses told you that hell fire is not a place as many christians teaches today, they are right but if they taught you that GOD will not punish sinners to death with fire, they are wrong

The Jehovah Witnesses are doubly wrong. The lake of fire is described in Scripture as a place into which the devil and his rebellious host will be cast. That event occurs at the final judgement.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by PoDeep(m): 7:51pm On Apr 21, 2007
Dead ryt, stimulus. Dead ryt.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by MP007(m): 7:06am On Apr 22, 2007
u are stimulus , dont mind the fella oo, may the lord open his eyes, next thing his is gonna be saying is undecidedthat heaven is also an event , lord have mercy!!!
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by KAG: 1:04am On Apr 23, 2007
Now that we've established that hell is like a lake of fire or something, and, I'm assuming, people will be cast there for like eternity, can somebody explain how that doesn't contradict the idea of love, especially in an apparently omniscient being?
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by ricadelide(m): 5:47am On Apr 23, 2007
KAG:

Now that we've established that hell is like a lake of fire or something, and, I'm assuming, people will be cast there for like eternity, can somebody explain how that doesn't contradict the idea of love, especially in an apparently omniscient being?
Just a brief answer cos i'm past my bedtime. God is just, He is a God of justice, therefore he will not leave the guilty unpunished. In our human systems we have courts and all that, and we do not complain about why evil, guilty men need to be punished by a prison sentence.

However, that is a small part of the story, the greater part of the story is that in Rom 3: 23 -26 and Eph. 2:1-7. In the former verse, Jesus, who was sinless, was shown to have died as a propitiation for us sinful men, and took upon himself our sin (2Cor 5: 21, Isaiah 53:6) and thus the punishment we deserve, so that we who have beleived in him are justified and declared righteous and free from guilt and condemnation. Also, see John 3:16.
So although God is Love and full of mercy, He is also a God of Justice.

God has done so much for us in Christ Jesus that the question of hell should not even arise if we respond properly to the gospel message in faith and obedient acceptance of his gift of grace. It is not God's will that any man should perish (2Pet 2:9, John 3:17). Hell was not originally prepared for man but for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41) However, people who reject God's salvation declare themselves enemies of God and willingly remain followers of the devil thereby earning the same punishment (John 3: 18 - 21, Eph. 2:1-7)

Hope you understand. Pray you accept His gracious gift of life. Cheers.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by KAG: 5:52pm On Apr 23, 2007
ricadelide:

Just a brief answer because i'm past my bedtime. God is just, He is a God of justice, therefore he will not leave the guilty unpunished. In our human systems we have courts and all that, and we do not complain about why evil, guilty men need to be punished by a prison sentence.

We do, however, complain when "evil", guilty men are punished indefinitely when there is a chance for repentance and rehabilitation. It seems the human system, despite its lack of omniscience, has figured out somethings the Christian God hasn't.

However, that is a small part of the story, the greater part of the story is that in Rom 3: 23 -26 and Eph. 2:1-7. In the former verse, Jesus, who was sinless, was shown to have died as a propitiation for us sinful men, and took upon himself our sin (2Cor 5: 21, Isaiah 53:6) and thus the punishment we deserve, so that we who have beleived in him are justified and declared righteous and free from guilt and condemnation. Also, see John 3:16.
So although God is Love and full of mercy, He is also a God of Justice.

Why? Why would Jesus have had to die to save "us sinful men"? Isn't the Christian God all-powerful? Also, isn't the "sacrifice" a tad redundant considering the vast majority (and we're talking billions and billions) of people will end up in hell?

God has done so much for us in Christ Jesus that the question of hell should not even arise if we respond properly to the gospel message in faith and obedient acceptance of his gift of grace. It is not God's will that any man should perish (2Pet 2:9, John 3:17). Hell was not originally prepared for man but for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41)

If hell wasn't originally prepared for humans, then God isn't omniscient. Is that a fair assumption?

However, people who reject God's salvation declare themselves enemies of God and willingly remain followers of the devil thereby earning the same punishment (John 3: 18 - 21, Eph. 2:1-7)

Hope you understand. Pray you accept His gracious gift of life. Cheers.

I most certainly do not understand. I hope this oesn't come across as hostile or anything, but your response did not really answer my question.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by ricadelide(m): 6:56pm On Apr 23, 2007
KAG:

We do, however, complain when "evil", guilty men are punished indefinitely when there is a chance for repentance and rehabilitation. It seems the human system, despite its lack of omniscience, has figured out somethings the Christian God hasn't.
what exactly is your point? Is it that GOd does not forgive? you need to read the story of Paul to answer that or if that is not enough, i can tell you my own story. Or that human systems dont punish indefinitely? Do you live on this planet; ever heard of 'life imprisonment without the possibility of parole'? Your question was how a loving God can punish sinners. And i've answered you that it is because He is also a Holy and a Just God. He administers justice. Is that too hard to understand?
God has set limits within which a man can recieve forgiveness and therefore escape indefinite punishment. that limit is called 'time'. within the human time frame, a man can obtain forgiveness. but once a man dies, he has lost his capacity to ask for forgiveness, and thus brings upon himself eternal damnation. Heb.9.27 "People die once, and after that they are judged"

KAG:

Why? Why would Jesus have had to die to save "us sinful men"? Isn't the Christian God all-powerful? Also, isn't the "sacrifice" a tad redundant considering the vast majority (and we're talking billions and billions) of people will end up in hell?
why would Jesus have had to die to save sinful men? Are you actually asking a question or trying to sound wise? I've explained why Jesus had to die; if you bothered to read the scriptures i put it would help. Let me restate; man sinned, and deserved to be punished. God, who is rich in mercy, knew that man, in his own natural effort, can never live above sin, therefore he sent his son who lived a sinless life and on the cross he bore man's sin and therefore the consequences of our sin ie punishment for our sins. But because he is God, death could not hold him captive and He rose again breaking the power of sin and death and setting free from sin those who beleive in Him. Is that enough? you might need to read ROmans, Hebrews, Ephesians to understand the details. i just paraphrased the whole thing cos that's the whole christian message.
Isn't the Christian GOd all-powerful? Meaning what? I dont get your drift - do you mean he should in his 'all powerfulness' make us all holy or make us obey him or what? He made human beings, not puppets, that they should choose Him of their own free will.
Also, isn't the "sacrifice" a tad redundant considering the vast majority (and we're talking billions and billions) of people will end up in hell?
Wow. I'm baffled by this statement. Let me give an analogy, you discover a drug that cures AIDs, then when you are about to market the drug, it was brought to your notice that some people will not buy the drug. Because some people (as always) will doubt the drug's potency, will you decide not to market the drug? How illogical is that?
Morever, how many times do we have to say that God DOES NOT want anyone to perish. 2Pet3;9. Even if it was only one sinner on earth, He would still have come down to die. your statement is severely flawed; the fact that some people choose to reject him doesn't mean that He shouldnt do the right thing. it only shows that people choose to reject him without cause conjuring up reasons when there isn't any.
KAG:

If hell wasn't originally prepared for humans, then God isn't omniscient. Is that a fair assumption?
Please check your statements before you make them. Omniscient means all-knowing. It does not mean all-influencing. He knew all things. He didnt make man sin. NO. Man sinned and earned his punishment. Hell was prepared for the devil and his followers. When you reject God, you automatically become a follower of the devil and thus are consigned to the same fate. Your assumption is baseless.
KAG:

I most certainly do not understand. I hope this oesn't come across as hostile or anything, but your response did not really answer my question.
I hope i'm wrong but reading your post, I don't really think you want answers, you seem to want arguments. My answer was clear enough and your responses were not even related to what i wrote. I dont know your beleifs or convictions so i dont know where you are coming from mentally; i dont give myself to irrelevant arguments. so if you really are interested in gaining knowledge, ask relevant questions. maybe you can let me know what your perspective is so i can answer more pointedly. cheers
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by mazaje(m): 8:19pm On Apr 23, 2007
You have all been knocked out of the game.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by KAG: 8:53pm On Apr 23, 2007
ricadelide:

what exactly is your point? Is it that GOd does not forgive? you need to read the story of Paul to answer that or if that is not enough, i can tell you my own story. Or that human systems don't punish indefinitely? Do you live on this planet; ever heard of 'life imprisonment without the possibility of parole'? Your question was how a loving God can punish sinners. And i've answered you that it is because He is also a Holy and a Just God. He administers justice. Is that too hard to understand?

Not so much a point as a question: how can eternal torment be reconciled with love? Does God forgive? Apparently, not after one has died and sometimes not if the leader of one's tribe or society has been "bad".

Also, I was careful to specify that humans can and do show clemency when "when there is a chance for repentance and rehabilitation". The idea of eternal punishment for grossly evil things like not belonging to the right religion or telling a white lie for example, leaves neither the opportunity for redemption nor does it even seem justified. Justice is meting out punishment for a crime or wrong fairly, singly and with the aim of hopefully changing the person or keeping society safe. Those aren't done with omniscience in the human system, but they are usually effective and fair.

God has set limits within which a man can recieve forgiveness and therefore escape indefinite punishment. that limit is called 'time'. within the human time frame, a man can obtain forgiveness. but once a man dies, he has lost his capacity to ask for forgiveness, and thus brings upon himself eternal damnation. Heb.9.27 "People die once, and after that they are judged"

That's part of the point, why have a time limit? A time limit that condemns, once again, the vast majority, even the contrite, to infinite, unending punishment. Sounds neither like justice nor love.

why would Jesus have had to die to save sinful men? Are you actually asking a question or trying to sound wise?

Asking a question.

I've explained why Jesus had to die; if you bothered to read the scriptures i put it would help. Let me restate; man sinned, and deserved to be punished.

The point of the question was why would an omnipotent God need to have "himself" die temporarily after billions of years of earth time and thousands of years of human life to save humans from something he either ochestrated or knew was going to happen? It all seems rather melodramatic and unnecessary. I have read the Bible, but I got lost somewhere between God is love and damn you all to hell. Also, and I hope this isn't off-topic, what exactly is/are the sins moral humans (that is, the moral non-christians) have committed that they deserve to be punished for? And are children included in the whole deserving punishment thing, too?


God, who is rich in mercy, knew that man, in his own natural effort, can never live above sin, therefore he sent his son who lived a sinless life and on the cross he bore man's sin and therefore the consequences of our sin ie punishment for our sins. But because he is God, death could not hold him captive and He rose again breaking the power of sin and death and setting free from sin those who beleive in Him. Is that enough?


No, it isn't enough. First, why can't humans live above "sin"? There have been many incidents and reporst of people who have lived moral and blameless lives. They managed it. Furthemore, without really understanding what sin means to you, it is arguable that people could possibly need to be punished for their "sins"; however, I don't see how eternal punishment can be a justified punishment.

you might need to read ROmans, Hebrews, Ephesians to understand the details. i just paraphrased the whole thing because that's the whole christian message.

I have.

Isn't the Christian GOd all-powerful? Meaning what? I don't get your drift - do you mean he should in his 'all powerfulness' make us all holy or make us obey him or what? He made human beings, not puppets, that they should choose Him of their own free will.

Not quite. I meant something along the lines of "Why would an omnipotent God need to have "himself" die temporarily after billions of years of earth time and thousands of years, etc?" Also, he really doesn't have to make humans puppets to get his point or across or to give a better chance for choice (remember, people are sceptical for a reason).


Also, isn't the "sacrifice" a tad redundant considering the vast majority (and we're talking billions and billions) of people will end up in hell?
Wow. I'm baffled by this statement. Let me give an analogy, you discover a drug that cures AIDs, then when you are about to market the drug, it was brought to your notice that some people will not buy the drug. Because some people (as always) will doubt the drug's potency, will you decide not to market the drug? How illogical is that?

May I suggest that your analogy doesn't quite fit the situation as I've heard it told. It's more like alledgedly discovering the cure for AIDS, after alledgedly creating or causing AIDS. Then, after pointedly refusing to divulge how I got the cure and to show actual evidence of the cure (I tell people to just have faith), I go through a bizzare and paradoxical procedure that involves most of the intended target not even knowing that the cure exists. Did I also mention that after marketing the drug, the effects of the cure on people can't be distinguished from those who haven't been cured nor from those who used the drugs of other healers I assure you are quacks. Is it illogical? Perhaps.

Morever, how many times do we have to say that God DOES NOT want anyone to perish. 2Pet3;9. Even if it was only one sinner on earth, He would still have come down to die.

Let's just say for the omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient deity he has being alledged to be, he's doing a rather poor job of not wanting anyone to perish.


your statement is severely flawed; the fact that some people choose to reject him doesn't mean that He shouldnt do the right thing.

The statement or question sought to explore the concept of an omniscient God doing an implausible deed to save people from a relatively intangible thing and doing it in a way that elicits rejection by a good number and is unknown by others.

it only shows that people choose to reject him without cause conjuring up reasons when there isn't any.

You mean the reasons like: "wait, where's the evidence for such an extraordinary claim", "that makes absolutely no sense, why would God have to sacrifice himself to himself" and all those others that point to the disreprancies aren't real reasons and are just conjured up out of spite or something?

Please check your statements before you make them. Omniscient means all-knowing. It does not mean all-influencing. He knew all things. He didnt make man sin. NO. Man sinned and earned his punishment. Hell was prepared for the devil and his followers. When you reject God, you automatically become a follower of the devil and thus are consigned to the same fate.

Maybe you should look up the meaning of omniscient. According to Christian theology (at least the one that preaches omni-deity), God knows the outcome of everything, knew even before creating humans what would happen with humans and knows/knew the end result of every human - do you see where I'm going with this? - and generally planned it all. It stands to reason, logically, that if hell was planned for the Devil and his followers (by the way, by follower, I thought you meant demons), then God did plan and design for humans (the majority as the case turns out) to end up in hell. That brings us back to my initial question - how can that be reconciled with love?

By the way, would the people who didn't reject the Christian God but ended up committing some sin or the other before death be considered followers of the Devil?

Your assumption is baseless.

I wasn't; it was based on primarily on interpreting "followers" as demons.

I hope i'm wrong but reading your post, I don't really think you want answers, you seem to want arguments.

I want discussion and answers. Read into that what you will.

My answer was clear enough and your responses were not even related to what i wrote.

Your response was clear, but, like I mentioned, didn't really address my question. Also, I just quickly re-read my responses, they were all related to what you wrote.

I don't know your beleifs or convictions so i don't know where you are coming from mentally; i don't give myself to irrelevant arguments. so if you really are interested in gaining knowledge, ask relevant questions. maybe you can let me know what your perspective is so i can answer more pointedly. cheers

I'm a struggling atheist; my questions - at least most of them - have been relevant and related to both the thread and your post; I'm always interested in gaining knowledge; and my perspective is, while I have seen no way to reconcile eternal torment with omniscience and omnibenevolence, maybe some other person could attempt it or point out a way before I consider it a closed subject (in my mind).
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by ricadelide(m): 11:27pm On Apr 23, 2007
@KAG,
Ok, I know where you are coming from. And i can see where your grouses mainly lie and i'd try to focus on them to the best of my ability to explain issues.
I wont really answer directly word for word what you wrote because it'd just drag endlessly. Rather i'd try to answer the issues behind what you wrote.

Let me explain the issues i percieve you have grouses with.
First, God's omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence.
I'd try to paint a picture of God for you, and correct the image (distorted as it is) that you have of Him. As regards God's omniscience, try to see it as God being aware of what will happen before it does, while as regards his omnipotence, see it as it his; all-powerful - but understand it in this context; he has set boundaries for himself.
the first boundary is the fact that he has 'given' the earth to man. Ps. 115;16 "The heavens are the heavens of the Lord, but the earth He has given to the sons of men" Also Gen 1;26-30, Gen. 2:15
the other boundary is that he gave man a free will.

Now getting into more detail the issue of choice. God created beings with free wills. humans have free wills, angelic beings have free wills. God has his own will as well. see each person's will as a sphere of influence. every person's will can be absolute to himself and cannot be encroached upon. however you could have the two spheres coming in contact when a person chooses God or chooses satan such that God's will becomes the person's will or Satan's will becomes the person's will as the case may be. Now, here on earth spirits cannot encroach on a man's free will, but fellow men can. that is why an evil human being is of more threat to me than an evil spirit - because he is man, and can encroach on my will or sphere of influence (but that's something i don't want to get into now)
God cannot encroach in earthly affairs without a man's permission. That might seem absurd but it's the truth. That is why we pray. We pray so that we can allow God to 'encroach' in our affairs by His might. The same principle applies in witchcraft; some people pray to the devil and give him a gateway in their lives so he can operate.
However the down side is that having a choice does not exempt from consequences. No. the fact that you can choose what you want, inherently places a responsibility on you. and confers almost by definition, the need to act responsibly and choose good. You can easily understand this from human societies and human liberties, whilst we are free and can choose what we want, when we choose to do wrong, we face the consequences.

When God made man, He made him innocent, naive and placed choices before man. God put man on earth and effectively handed it over to him as man's domain. You say since God is all-powerful, why didn't he make him choose good? or since he is all-knowing, why did He make man since He knew man would fall? However what you should remember is that we are made in the image of God, each man is a world unto himself and can autonomously determine his sphere not being encroached. For God to be fair, he had to make man, and he had to make him have the ability to choose irrespective of the outcome (ie rejection). Do you think GOd was happy that man didn't choose him, of course not. that was why it greived his loving heart when man rejected Him. God is not some angry avenger out to 'get' everyone who disobeys Him. No. he is a God who is interested in fellowshipping with his creation. and the decison to choose wrong affected God just as much, if not more, than it affected man.

For a choice to be that, a choice, God's omnipotence and omniscience cannot be involved; those are God's attributes not man's. He wanted and expected the man to choose life (the tree of life) but man did not. (and we can indeed say he could not). However, where God's omnipotence and omniscience plays in is when he provides a remedy for the fall. Ordinarily, in a level playing field of justice, man is, or should be, condemned for disobeying. but God in His foreknowledge had provided a way out. And that way out was ultimately played out years later in the death and ressurection of Christ. How you would know that God could not influence man's outcome because 'his hands were tied' (by man's free will) is when you understand that at one point, GOd 'regretted that he had made man'.

So now the other thing is; fine, there is punishment, but why does it have to be 'eternal'? human beings are spirits pocessing a soul and living in a body. spirits are by nature eternal, they don't die. SO if there has to be a punishment for a spirit, it has to be an eternal punishment. A man has a long time (the space of a lifetime) to avert the eternal consequences of wrong actions and within that time frame, GOd forgives, and he forgives, and he forgives (i'm talking from both knowledge and experience). I have known His love and mercy and He does forgive, but like i said i'll say again, his forgiveness is within a time frame; and that time frame is a man's life. Once that life leaves the body, a man must face judgement.

So what i'd advise is, rather than focus on the potential for punishment and the possibilty of being lost, why not focus on the plus side and see that, there is really no reason for any body to be lost. we know the real reason why people reject God and his provision (i don't really want to get into it now). what i usually tell people "if you know what i know, you'd be in the same position i am". God is indeed love, but there are many things we have to seek understanding for, and i understand your concerns. My goal is to answer as many questions as i can when the objective is knowledge and not mere arguements.

I have to go home; i'd answer the other issues when i get home.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by ricadelide(m): 1:46am On Apr 24, 2007
@ KAG,
now, reading your post, the second issue i'd address is the issue of sin and redemption.
this is an overwhelmingly broad subject and so, in order not to write a whole book here, i'd just address the concerns you raised.

when Adam sinned, he became enslaved to sin. what that means is that, he lost the ability to not do what is wrong and it became 'natural' for him to do wrong. before then, doing what is wrong like lying or stealing (just examples) was unnatural ie it wasnt the standard course of events.  After Adam became aware of good and evil, however, he naturally gravitated towards evil - because he lacked the power (we now know that ability is the power of holiness, which is the very nature of God) to choose to do good when the option of evil is present. Now, although, he was made in the image of God and was innocent, every man that came after him took up the image of Adam which was a sinful nature. (Compare Gen. 5;1 to Gen 5;3)

Now coming to the issue of morality; i used to be a moralist at one point in my life so i can understand. there are many problems with this. when a man decides to be moral, he does good things and to an extent doesn't do wickedness. But the 1st thing to note is this; who sets the rules of right or wrong? the creature or the creator? if it has to be the creator, then we must understand His terms. You see, when an action takes place, eg helping somebody, GOd does not look at the action, rather he looks at the source of the actions. we are selfish beings, moral or not. so when i help somebody as a moralist, my ego is satisfied, i feel good with myself and i can actually boast that i am good. to me i've done something good; but before God i've done nothing, because i have acted from my own selfishness and while my action is deemed by man to be good, i've fallen into another pit - self-pride which God abhors 1Pet 5.5
the second issue with morality is that; you can't always do what is right. At one point you'd do wrong. Now GOd's requirement is so stringent that, at any point where a man does wrong, he is adjudged guilty of all. (James 2: 10) So much that, in God's eyes, soemone who kills a man is just as guilty as one who tells a lie. that is why, with God, it is not a matter of 'my good outweighs my bad therefore i shouldnt be punished'
it is a matter of 'be Holy' rather than 'be moral'. God (and GOd alone) is Holy (by nature). like i said i've lived a moral life, but while i did so, i came across people who were filled with God's Holy Spirit (who is the One who enables one to live above sin AND self) and therefore lived a Holy life and i was severely convicted (ie i felt guilt) of the shallowness of my so-called morality. You see, when you get a glimpse of God, or come in contact with people who 'carry' GOd, you'd be humbled and you'd realise that your morality is at best filthy (Isaiah 64;6) that is why people that know God and walk with Him undergo more stricter judgement because God expects more from them. and thus what constitutes 'sin' to them might not necessarily be 'sin' to the average man (eg Moses) but i can't go into this now.

now you might wonder, if GOd is so strict, who then can meet his requirements? who can be 'saved'? (Mark 10; 26-27) and the inevitable answer is NONE by his own strength or effort (Rom 3;20 Weymouth translation "For on the ground of obedience to Law no man living will be declared righteous before Him. Law simply brings a sure knowledge of sin"wink. No man can meet God's requirements. the purpose of laws (and especially the old testament) was to show man that he NEEDS God. thus the first thing to realise is that we NEED GOd in order to live a pure life. but then, the requirements MUST be met, and that was why Jesus came. He lived a sinless life 1Pet.2.22 and therefore He met God's requirement (for the first time since creation). that was why GOd testified about him before the jews saying 'this is my beloved SOn, with him i am well pleased, Hear him (or TAKE HEED UNTO him).  

So this is where the gospel message comes in. Jesus did many things on the cross, first he took the punishment for our sins 1 Pet 3;18, 1Pet 2;24-25 (somebody had to pay; if not us, then him; so, as foreshadowed in the old testament in leviticus, he became the 'scape goat' that took our punishment) so because he took our punishment by shedding his blood, we CAN receive forgiveness of sins from GOd. Col. 1;13-14
the other thing he did was to bear our SIN. 2Cor 5;21, Rom 6;6. ie the nature that came upon every child of Adam such that we naturally do what is wrong. He did this so that, those of us that receive Him would lose our desire for what is wrong (which is the power that sin has over us) and we can then willingly choose right.
He also took upon him our SELF. (that I, I, I in our actions) ie the part of us that considers himself above others. because he lay down ourselves for us, we can lay ourSELVES unto him and can learn to deny ourself whenever we are faced with decisions.  2Cor 5:15
furthermore he filled us with His Spirit, who empowers us to live a holy life (Rom 8;4 and Rom 8;9)
the net effect of all this is to make a new creation of men on earth; Titus 2;14 men who do not sin 1John 3; 9-10 (not that they CANNOT sin, but they don't CONTINUE in sin), who do not think of themselves but lay down their lives for him 2Cor 5;15 and above all, who have  a relationship with their creator. 2Cor 5;18-20
after doing all these things, that was when he was able to say 'it is finished' because all the issues that seperated man from God before he came had been addressed.

Now, if after you one hears the gospel, which is what i just said above, God expects (like he expected from Adam in the garden) that men accept his free gift (or rather his REMEDY). but if man rejects this offer, then what he is saying is 'i don't need you' , i will do it by myself. Now GOd's standard for judgement does not change, and so that man is expected to live by God's standard (which is impossible) so that is why people get condemned.
Now for those who never heard the gospel, the standard of judgement is different and it is explained in Romans 2.

SO, what i'd say is, the gospel is not about damnation, it is the GOOD NEWS. its about SALVATION. what happens is that some uninformed men distort the message by preaching about fire and destruction thus causing people to recoil in fear. when i got to understand the gospel, i believed it and i was saved Eph.1:13, Eph 2;8-9 now i have a very much clearer understanding of life that i didn't have before but beyond that, i am a TRANSFORMED person. 2Cor 5:17
SO if you have anymore questions, let me know, or if you want to accept Him, let me know as well so i can explain further. God bless.

nb, i'd recommend you read Romans 10.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by KAG: 11:46pm On May 01, 2007
Sorry for the delay. No excuses.

ricadelide:

@ KAG,
now, reading your post, the second issue i'd address is the issue of sin and redemption.
this is an overwhelmingly broad subject and so, in order not to write a whole book here, i'd just address the concerns you raised.

That's fair enough, but I'm sure you'll understand when I say that it still doesn't explain how love and eternal torture aren't mutually exclusive.

when Adam sinned, he became enslaved to sin. what that means is that, he lost the ability to not do what is wrong and it became 'natural' for him to do wrong. before then, doing what is wrong like lying or stealing (just examples) was unnatural ie it wasnt the standard course of events. After Adam became aware of good and evil, however, he naturally gravitated towards evil - because he lacked the power (we now know that ability is the power of holiness, which is the very nature of God) to choose to do good when the option of evil is present. Now, although, he was made in the image of God and was innocent, every man that came after him took up the image of Adam which was a sinful nature. (Compare Gen. 5;1 to Gen 5;3)

How does that work? What I mean is, why woudl every man after Adam be in the image of Adam and not God? Furthermore, if everyone after Adam was sinful (that doesn't seem to be true though, because Enoch was sinless, if I recall correctly) then doesn't it stand to reason that they, except the chosen, are all being totured for eternity too?

Now coming to the issue of morality; i used to be a moralist at one point in my life so i can understand. there are many problems with this. when a man decides to be moral, he does good things and to an extent doesn't do wickedness. But the 1st thing to note is this; who sets the rules of right or wrong? the creature or the creator? if it has to be the creator, then we must understand His terms. You see, when an action takes place, eg helping somebody, GOd does not look at the action, rather he looks at the source of the actions. we are selfish beings, moral or not. so when i help somebody as a moralist, my ego is satisfied, i feel good with myself and i can actually boast that i am good. to me i've done something good; but before God i've done nothing, because i have acted from my own selfishness and while my action is deemed by man to be good, i've fallen into another pit - self-pride which God abhors 1Pet 5.5


That's a rather cynical view of morality if you don't me saying so. If pressed, I'd point out that morality isn't "determined" (morality isn't usually a conscious decision by people) by a creator, but by we humans. However, your point is taken and I get what you mean.


the second issue with morality is that; you can't always do what is right. At one point you'd do wrong. Now GOd's requirement is so stringent that, at any point where a man does wrong, he is adjudged guilty of all. (James 2: 10) So much that, in God's eyes, soemone who kills a man is just as guilty as one who tells a lie. that is why, with God, it is not a matter of 'my good outweighs my bad therefore i shouldnt be punished'


And we get to the rub of it. That, in my opinion, is neither just nor good. A person that chooses to lie for the good of another surely cannot be seen in the same light as someone that commits murder - it's usually considered insane to view things in that light. However, to get back to the main point, a being that tortures a being for infinity for lying, especially if the lie was for a good cause (and I can give you examples of what I mean by lying for a good cause) doesn't sound like a loving being.


it is a matter of 'be Holy' rather than 'be moral'. God (and GOd alone) is Holy (by nature). like i said i've lived a moral life,

Not to be a dick, but considering that the Christian God has committed murders too "holy" must have a meaning I haven't encountered.

but while i did so, i came across people who were filled with God's Holy Spirit (who is the One who enables one to live above sin AND self) and therefore lived a Holy life and i was severely convicted (ie i felt guilt) of the shallowness of my so-called morality. You see, when you get a glimpse of God, or come in contact with people who 'carry' GOd, you'd be humbled and you'd realise that your morality is at best filthy (Isaiah 64;6) that is why people that know God and walk with Him undergo more stricter judgement because God expects more from them. and thus what constitutes 'sin' to them might not necessarily be 'sin' to the average man (eg Moses) but i can't go into this now.


I haven't come across any one that fills that bill, Christian or otherwise.

What Jesus did

Fair enough.

Now, if after you one hears the gospel, which is what i just said above, God expects (like he expected from Adam in the garden) that men accept his free gift (or rather his REMEDY). but if man rejects this offer, then what he is saying is 'i don't need you' , i will do it by myself.


Or one rejects the "offer" because one is sceptical about the claims, aware of the things that don't add up, and wary of the "good news". Really, there are many reasons one would reject what you call a free gift (take my gift or I'll kill you!) and many of them are no different from why you've rejected other religions.

Now GOd's standard for judgement does not change, and so that man is expected to live by God's standard (which is impossible) so that is why people get condemned.
Now for those who never heard the gospel, the standard of judgement is different and it is explained in Romans 2.

So there is hope for the dead, Jesus wasn't necessarily the only way, etc?

SO, what i'd say is, the gospel is not about damnation, it is the GOOD NEWS. its about SALVATION. what happens is that some uninformed men distort the message by preaching about fire and destruction thus causing people to recoil in fear. when i got to understand the gospel, i believed it and i was saved Eph.1:13, Eph 2;8-9 now i have a very much clearer understanding of life that i didn't have before but beyond that, i am a TRANSFORMED person. 2Cor 5:17
SO if you have anymore questions, let me know, or if you want to accept Him, let me know as well so i can explain further. God bless.

nb, i'd recommend you read Romans 10.

Good to hear. Thanks for taking the time out. I'm still rather interested in how anyone can resolve eternal torture with love, though.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by ricadelide(m): 4:03am On May 02, 2007
@ KAG,
i had two posts; i dont think you read the prior post, perhaps it would answer some of your questions.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by Bobbyaf(m): 8:09pm On May 05, 2007
@ Viable


I want to address this question from the biblical point of view. Hell fire is an event and not a place as so many christian denominations do teach today.

I tend to see where you're coming from when you say hell is more of an event than a place, but I have to say its both an event and a place. However the place is not somewhere under the earth, but the whole earth itself. The whole earth will be engulfed in fire, and if the whole earth will be engulfed then it means that the earth itelf would be the place. I hope you see the point I am making.

One pastor said that sinners will be burning forever and ever that is not what the bible says.

And I very much agree with you! There has been a gross mis-understanding of what the bible teaches about hell fire, coupled with the reality of a lot of translational errors that tend to confuse a lot of christians.

The bible says unquenchable fire, that is a fire which nobody can put off untill it consume every sinner. that means that sinners will be burnt up with fire which noone can put off.

Well said! Unquenchable doesn't mean indefinite burning. smiley

see Isaiah 24;1-6 and jude verse 7 where the bible mentioned the destruction of sodom and gomorrha as example of eternal fire. The question for anyone who says that hell fire will burn forever, the question for such person is , is sodom and gomorrha still burning till today? So if the Jehovah's Witnesses told you that hell fire is not a place as many christians teaches today, they are right but if they taught you that GOD will not punish sinners to death with fire, they are wrong,


In some other thread I brought out this point to those who believes in an everlasting hell fire. On the surface it does appear that way to the average person if they were to take the word at face value all the time. Phrases found in Revelation 20:9-10

9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.


10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


I want you to notice something here. The bold word in verse 9 says "devoured", while the bold phrase in verse 10 says "forever and ever". On the surface it would seem contradictory, wouldn't it? One word is connoting a complete act, and another phrase is connoting an indefinite act. grin

To end the confusion all that is needed is spending some time doing a proper research of translational idiomatic phrases in the scriptures and deriving the truth that surrounds them. "Forever and ever" is one such idiomatic phrase that was never meant to be taken at face value, just like all other idiomatic ones. The original greek expression was writtenin the plural form and which meant "from the ages to the ages".

It simply implied an event that would happen during a time epoch, or era, or an event that would happen in time stages for as long as that event lasted. So in the case of hell fire the wicked would be punished not indefinitely, but as long as their punishment was meant to last.

As you rightly said even the word unquenchable as used in scripture takes on greater meaning when it is understood in the proper context of who God is. God is LOVE. He is also a God of righteousness and justice. He cannot give greater punishment than is necessary. No one would be able to stop the fire until it does its work of cleansing the earth of sin and sinners.

Besides, if this fire is allowed to burn indefinitely, where would God establish the new earth? If the earth is allowed to burn without end how would the meek inherit the earth?
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by stimulus(m): 7:43am On May 06, 2007
@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:

However the place is not somewhere under the earth, but the whole earth itself. The whole earth will be engulfed in fire, and if the whole earth will be engulfed then it means that the earth itelf would be the place.

Where in Scripture does it say that the earth itself is the lake of fire?

Bobbyaf:

No one would be able to stop the fire until it does its work of cleansing the earth of sin and sinners.

Where in the verses offered does it say: "UNTIL"??

How long exactly will the lake of fire last - one day, two weeks, a month??

Bobbyaf:

God is LOVE. He is also a God of righteousness and justice. He cannot give greater punishment than is necessary

Does the Bible present the punishment with the lake of fire as a slight punishment just because God is LOVE?

Bobbyaf:

Besides, if this fire is allowed to burn indefinitely, where would God establish the new earth? If the earth is allowed to burn without end how would the meek inherit the earth?

Where in Scripture does the Bible say that earth is the lake of fire?
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by Bobbyaf(m): 8:40am On May 06, 2007
@ Stimulus


Where in Scripture does it say that the earth itself is the lake of fire?

2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."

Where in the verses offered does it say: "UNTIL"??

Whatever verse that utilises the word "unquenchable", in other words the word used means that no one will be able to stop the fire from doing its work until its work is complete.

Most christians including you, are likely to use the word un-quenchable as meaning an indefinite burning, when in truth it means nothing of the sort when it is lined up contextually.

How long exactly will the lake of fire last - one day, two weeks, a month??


How would I know?

Does the Bible present the punishment with the lake of fire as a slight punishment just because God is LOVE?

Can't recall ever using the word slight in my response. What I recall explaining is that God's love and justice cannot allow Him to unduly punish sinners.

Where in Scripture does the Bible say that earth is the lake of fire?

See the above response for the same question you already posed above.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by stimulus(m): 9:04am On May 06, 2007
@Bobbyaf,

I suspected you would quickly reference II Pet. 3:10 in your reply. However, if we're going to read what it says without favouring a partial view, here's another look at the context:

(a) that verse mentions the HEAVENS as well the EARTH.

(b) reading from verse 7 shows clearly that the HEAVENS also will be on fire:

"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store,
reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

(c) See verse 12 as well:

                             "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God,
                              wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved,
                              and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

To those who are quick to quote II Pet. 3:10 to argue for the earth being the lake of fire, my question is:

           Are the HEAVENS also the same location as the LAKE OF FIRE?

You cannot quickly use that verse to teach that the EARTH itself is the lake of fire, whereas vs. 7 mentions the HEAVENS in the same connection as what is stated in verse 10.

Bobbyaf:

Whatever verse that utilises the word "unquenchable", in other words the word used means that no one will be able to stop the fire from doing its work until its work is complete.

I do not find the word 'UNTIL' remotely suggested there; and those introducing that idea are doing so simply to force their own interpretation into Scripture.

Bobbyaf:

Most christians including you, are likely to use the word un-quenchable as meaning an indefinite burning, when in truth it means nothing of the sort when it is lined up contextually.

That being the case, I do not see the idea of an "UNTIL" even when read contextually.

Bobbyaf:

How would I know?

Since you do not know, try not suggesting what Scripture does not teach.

Bobbyaf:

Can't recall ever using the word slight in my response. What I recall explaining is that God's love and justice cannot allow Him to unduly punish sinners.

I figured you would tow that line of response. God's love and justice does allow Him to pour out His wrath on evil; and any idea of euphemizing His indignation is simply humanistic reasoning.

Bobbyaf:

See the above response for the same question you already posed above.

I repeated my question for your repeated assertion.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by Bobbyaf(m): 9:37am On May 06, 2007
@ Stimulus

Heavens as mentioned there is really the immediate atmosphere surrounding the earth that has been defiled by man's activities. I will hasten to say its not the heaven of heavens where God dwells. I asume you already know that.

Let me repeat again. No one is saying that the earth or heaven is the lake of fire. What I am saying is that the fire that falls from heaven as recorded in Revelation 20 will cleanse both the heavens (atmospheric and stratospheric) and the earth.

I am also saying that this experience is both an event and that the place where this event will ocurr is the earth. Hence the whole globe and its surrounding atmosphere will be engulfed in fire as Peter described.

I do not find the word 'UNTIL' remotely suggested there; and those introducing that idea are doing so simply to force their own interpretation into Scripture.

The same can be said of those who see the word "unquenchable" as being indefinite.

I figured you would tow that ine of response. God's love and justice does allow Him to pour out His wrath on evil; and any idea of euphemizing His indignation is simply humanistic reasoning.

Thank God that is your opinion and not the bible's. grin besides no one is suggesting that God isn't free to pour out His wrath on evil, because you're exactly correct on that point. However, allowing evil to exist indefinitely according to your theory doesn't make sense.

In other words does God need an indefinite time period to destroy evil? How would that solve the sin problem? How would He re-create a new heaven and a new earth if He allowed sin to linger? The fact that God, assuming thats the case, allows an indefinite burning of sinners suggest that the sin problem would never be solved as long as the redeemed are reminded of it happening.

Jesus taught that the meek will inherit the earth, and John reminds us that God will dwell on the earth with the redeemed. If Peter says that the fire will engulf physically sinners, and the earth, how can it be even remotely believed that this fire will burn indefinitely, if we are expected to live with God on the earth made new?

If you can explain that paradox for want of a better word, go ahead.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by stimulus(m): 10:42am On May 06, 2007
@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:

Heavens as mentioned there is really the immediate atmosphere surrounding the earth that has been defiled by man's activities. I will hasten to say its not the heaven of heavens where God dwells. I asume you already know that.

That is hardly the sense meant there at all. The apostle Peter was not giving us any idea that translates into the immediate atmosphere defiled by man's activities. Reading II Pet. 3:4-5 clearly indicates what the apostle was pointing out: it was none other than the heavens mentioned in the same sense that we read of in Gen. 1:1.

Bobbyaf:

Let me repeat again. No one is saying that the earth or heaven is the lake of fire. What I am saying is that the fire that falls from heaven as recorded in Revelation 20 will cleanse both the heavens (atmospheric and stratospheric) and the earth.

That is a queer way of reneging on your earlier assertion. You had clearly stated:

Bobbyaf:

The whole earth will be engulfed in fire, and if the whole earth will be engulfed then it means that the earth itelf would be the place".

. . . and on that assertion my queries followed. I do not see it taught in Scripture the way you are trying to persuade readers to think.

Bobbyaf:

I am also saying that this experience is both an event and that the place where this event will ocurr is the earth. Hence the whole globe and its surrounding atmosphere will be engulfed in fire as Peter described.

You haven't made any new statement other than rephrased the same thing stated earlier to interprete the EARTH as the same location as the LAKE OF FIRE. That idea is not taught in the Bible; and the apostle Peter's epistle does not teach that.

Bobbyaf:

The same can be said of those who see the word "unquenchable" as being indefinite.

Which still does not carry any weight in the idea of an "UNTIL" that does not exist in the verses you cited.

Bobbyaf:

Thank God that is your opinion and not the bible's. grin  besides no one is suggesting that God isn't free to pour out His wrath on evil, because you're exactly correct on that point. However, allowing evil to exist indefinitely according to your theory doesn't make sense.

I nowhere suggested the idea of "allowing evil to exist indefinitely", so please don't bring in a cheap misconstruction where it does not exist in my responses.

Bobbyaf:

In other words does God need an indefinite time period to destroy evil? How would that solve the sin problem? How would He re-create a new heaven and a new earth if He allowed sin to linger? The fact that God, assuming thats the case, allows an indefinite burning of sinners suggest that the sin problem would never be solved as long as the redeemed are reminded of it happening.

Now, who finally is suggesting that the sin problem would never be solved?? grin  Trying ever so desperately to misread issues never helps you argument. I did NOT suggest it, and good for you if that's what you've been holding unto; but that is nowhere taught in the Bible.

Bobbyaf:

Jesus taught that the meek will inherit the earth, and John reminds us that God will dwell on the earth with the redeemed. If Peter says that the fire will engulf physically sinners, and the earth, how can it be even remotely believed that this fire will burn indefinitely, if we are expected to live with God on the earth made new?

If you can explain that paradox for want of a better word, go ahead.

Again, please go through your responses before posting them. My query is about your assertion that the EARTH ITSELF would be THE LAKE OF FIRE. Now if that is the idea that the apostle taught (which clearly was not), then my next question followed:

Are the HEAVENS also the same location as the LAKE OF FIRE?

I don't see how you've answered that question, other than circling round it in order to make Peter say what he did not say in the first place!
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by Horus(m): 11:24am On May 06, 2007
Hell’s a fabrication

The concept of hell is something that was created in the hearts and minds of the authors of your Bible and Koran. Before you were informed of what and where hell was, it never crossed your mind to even think about it. So, within the pages of your scriptures hell was born. Just as a God could not exist without the devil, heaven could not exist if there wasn’t a hell.

So where did hell come from? It didn’t exist in Adam’s, Noah’s, nor Abraham’s time. It is something that was fabricated so that they could capitalize off of your fear.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by Bobbyaf(m): 4:01am On May 07, 2007
@ Stimulus

Can you do me a favour?

1. Can you locate all those texts that suggest that the lake of fire will be indefinite?

2. After you have located those texts can you compare them to the original transcript in Greek and say if any of those translations fit the original transcript or not. In other words can you be 100% certain that the expressions you utillise to support an everlasting hell fire are honest translations of the original?

Looking forward to your research.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by stimulus(m): 8:09am On May 07, 2007
@Bobbyaf,

I would have obliged you the 'favour', but we have been there before. Your answer to my question as to How long exactly you think the lake of fire will last received a reply of "How would I know?" There's just no contest there - because if you don't know, what would be the use of arguing or debating the translations and original manuscripts with you?

You're trying to reharsh the debate that has already been tired-out in the other thread on this subject; which is not taking us anywhere, and I'm least interested in that.

My concern in this present one is simple: If you use II Pet. 3:10 to identify the EARTH as the LAKE OF FIRE, then my question is:

Are the HEAVENS also the same location as the LAKE OF FIRE?

Why leave out the heavens that are mentioned in the same connection with the earth as is evident in verses 7 and 12? People who have been holding on to the idea that the earth is the place of the lake of fire are reading their own thoughts into Scripture. And if I was greatly mistaken, then I wonder why they really haven't been able to deal with the mention of the heavens in the same connection.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by Horus(m): 10:10am On May 07, 2007
They don’t know where hell is, or if such a place really exists. They can’t even decide what hell is. Which one is it? Is it the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10) or the pit (Revelation 11:7) or is it a place where you will be given oozing pus to drink like the Koran describes (Koran 14:16), or a place where you will be roasted (Koran 17:18), or a prison (Koran 17:cool? Also, how did the pit get there? How did a big place of fire get beneath us? Did God create it down there? Why is it that scientists haven’t discovered it yet being they have dug holes straight down to the center of the Earth? Why is it that you can’t find hell if it really is a place that exists? Scientists have listened to the ground, they have all kinds of advanced technical equipment with computers. Have they heard crackling fires? No!!! Why? Because hell is a state of mind. It is what you make it. It exists within you, for each one will pattern his or her hell according to what he believes hell is. They don’t hear anybody down there screaming and hollering or any torturing. So what makes you believe that there is some place “down there” that you will go if you are a sinner where there is fire and demons? The Bible? Let’s be for real! There is nothing in the Bible that has been proven to be facts yet. You can’t even prove that the characters in your Bible really exists, let alone a place called hell! The hell that your Preachers, Teachers, Pastors, Rabbis, Imaams, and Sheiks preach to you about[b] is another trick to keep you trapped under religion[/b]
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by Bobbyaf(m): 2:04pm On May 07, 2007
@ Stimulus

@Bobbyaf,

I would have obliged you the 'favour', but we have been there before.

To what extent I am not sure. grin, that is the easy way out Stimulus.

Your answer to my question as to How long exactly you think the lake of fire will last received a reply of "How would I know?" There's just no contest there - because if you don't know, what would be the use of arguing or debating the translations and original manuscripts with you?

My not knowing how long the fiery punishment will last has no bearing on your unwillingness to debate the issue. Besides, when one compares the original transcripts with some translations one would see the obvious errors. I have said it over and over again that translational errors provide the basis for a lot of beliefs today. Hence its extremely important to go back to the Greek.

You're trying to reharsh the debate that has already been tired-out in the other thread on this subject; which is not taking us anywhere, and I'm least interested in that.

As far as I recall you were the one who responded to my post. If you think now that the whole discussion on my part was a rehash then why did you bother to bring up what you already discussed in another thread? You were the one who jumped in. lipsrsealed

My concern in this present one is simple: If you use II Pet. 3:10 to identify the EARTH as the LAKE OF FIRE, then my question is:


I urge you to stop making up stuff. grin I didn't identify the earth as the lake of fire. I said in response to another's query about hell fire being uniquely an event, as also being located in a place. I went on to say that the earth is that place. You then brought up the issue of the heavens which I explained was the immediate surrounding of the earth which is pretty obvious.

Are the HEAVENS also the same location as the LAKE OF FIRE?

You keep asking me the same question. Not sure what you're trying to prove. The question is wrongly constructed. You are making a comparison by your use of the word "as" as seen in bold. The lake of fire is not a place in and of itself. Its not a special spot on the earth. The whole globe will be on fire, including the atmosphere and stratosphere which the bible refers to as the heavens. Hence the earth will become the place. Stop trying hard to make it look as If I am saying that the earth or the heavens is the lake of fire.

Why leave out the heavens that are mentioned in the same connection with the earth as is evident in verses 7 and 12? People who have been holding on to the idea that the earth is the place of the lake of fire are reading their own thoughts into Scripture. And if I was greatly mistaken, then I wonder why they really haven't been able to deal with the mention of the heavens in the same connection.

Well, please see my above explanation.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by stimulus(m): 2:33pm On May 07, 2007
@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:

To what extent I am not sure grin that is the easy way out Stimulus.

Before you start applauding yourself, I don't think you're actually reading issues but are rather bent on reharshing already thrashed debates. I'm not taking any easy way out; and if you want to be my guest, let me ask you the pointed question as to why you went into exile from the other thread after my last response?

Bobbyaf:

My not knowing how long the fiery punishment will last has no bearing on your unwillingness to debate the issue. Besides, when one compares the original transcripts with some translations one would see the obvious errors. I have said it over and over again that translational errors provide the basis for a lot of beliefs today. Hence its extremely important to go back to the Greek.

And I have debated that issue of translations to with you in the other thread. You cannot offer your own baises against others when you haven't demonstrated any basic scholarship of the original languages. If you did, then you should know how long the punishment would last before offering your own ideas into the text where they do not exist!

Bobbyaf:

As far as I recall you were the one who responded to my post. If you think now that the whole discussion on my part was a rehash then why did you bother to bring up what you already discussed in another thread? You were the one who jumped in.

What are you drivelling about here? In the first place, I'm not aware that there's a law on the Forum that wherever the name "Bobbyaf" appears, no one is to respond to your post? Secondly, the topic was not started by you; and your whining here is irrelevant. And third, did you not jump in to the discussion of another? I really don't see why this childish gritting.

Bobbyaf:

I urge you to stop making up stuff.

After you - throw your "stuff" in the bin, and you won't have to lose sleep over my replies.

Bobbyaf:

I didn't identify the earth as the lake of fire. I said in response to another's query about hell fire being uniquely an event, as also being located in a place. I went on to say that the earth is that place. You then brought up the issue of the heavens which I explained was the immediate surrounding of the earth which is pretty obvious

Right then, after the rephrasing, can I also repeat my question:

If the EARTH is "that place", are the HEAVENS also "that place"?

As long as the text you offered mentions the HEAVENS in the same connection as the EARTH, why is it such a polemical issue to address my question succinctly minus your forced interpretations?

Bobbyaf:

You keep asking me the same question. Not sure what you're trying to prove. The question is wrongly constructed. You are making a comparison by your use of the word "as" as seen in bold. The lake of fire is not a place in and of itself. Its not a special spot on the earth. The whole globe will be on fire, including the atmosphere and stratosphere which the bible refers to as the heavens. Hence the earth will become the place. Stop trying hard to make it look as If I am saying that the earth or the heavens is the lake of fire.

I keep asking the same question because you keep making the same wrong inference by locating the position of the earth as the lake of fire. In that respect, I called your attention to the text you quoted to point out that BOTH the heavens and the earth were mentioned there. Some people have used that text to figure that "the earth itself" is the place as the lake of fire - and I don't see it so, and that's why I keep asking what they do with the "heavens" mentioned in that connection.

Bobbyaf:

Well, please see my above explanation.

I have - it still hasn't addressed the issues raised.
Re: Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True? by Bobbyaf(m): 3:21pm On May 07, 2007
@ Horus

They don’t know where hell is, or if such a place really exists. They can’t even decide what hell is. Which one is it? Is it the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10) or the pit (Revelation 11:7) or is it a place where you will be given oozing pus to drink like the Koran describes (Koran 14:16), or a place where you will be roasted (Koran 17:18), or a prison (Koran 17:cool? Also, how did the pit get there? How did a big place of fire get beneath us? Did God create it down there? Why is it that scientists haven’t discovered it yet being they have dug holes straight down to the center of the Earth?

To be honest the use of the word hell in christian circles, and other circles, as a word, has caused so much confusion its heart rending. On the other hand I can only comment on the biblical use of the word hell, and assure you that when you get the proper understanding of it you will walk away feeling better.  grin

There are three different Greek words that are translated “Hell” in our English New Testaments. It’s important to know this, for they each mean something different. They are “Tartarus,” “Gehenna,” and “Hades.” Tartarus is used only once in the New Testament, in 2 Peter 2:4. The Scripture says,

“God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.” (2 Peter 2:4, KJV).

This verse says that “the angels that sinned,” which would include Lucifer, too, have already been cast down “to hell” by God Himself. Yet they aren’t roasting right now, obviously, and they certainly aren’t suffering somewhere far beneath Los Angeles or Tokyo. Tartarus means “dark abyss” or “place of restraint.” It isn’t a place of punishment either. Look carefully. 2 Peter 2:4 says Satan’s angels are “reserved unto judgment,” which means their punishment is yet future. For Lucifer and his demons, the fire hasn’t started yet. So much for Tartarus.

Next word: “Gehenna.” All authorities admit this word is derived from the name of the narrow, rocky valley of Hinnom just south of Jerusalem where trash, filth, and the bodies of dead animals were burned up in Bible days. Jesus Christ spoke about Gehenna many times such as in Matthew 5:22, 29 & 30 where He warned about “the danger of hell [Gehenna] fire” (Matthew 5:22). Gehenna definitely suggests real flames. But a key question is: when will this fire burn? In Matthew 13:40-42, in His explanation to His disciples about His parable concerning plants, reapers and a harvest, Jesus provided this definite answer:

“The harvest is the end of the world, and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the weeds are gathered in burned in the fire, so shall it be at the end of this world. The Son of Man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them that do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire, and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” (Matthew 13:40 -42, italics added).

“He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” As to when the fire burns, what should we hear? Christ’s direct answer is, “at the end of this world” (verse 40). Amazingly, Peter taught the same thing when he wrote:

“But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” (2 Peter 3:7).

Peter’s words may seem radical, but they are the truth of God. By analysing carefully 2 Peter 3:7, we discover:

A real fire is coming.
It will burn “the heavens” – the polluted atmosphere we breathe.
It will burn “the earth” – the ground we walk on.
These flames will blaze on “the day of judgment.”
“Ungodly men” will end up in this fire.
Three verses later, Peter elaborated further,

“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night; in the which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” (2 Peter 3:10).

This passage is crystal clear. At some point in the future the sky above and the earth beneath will literally catch fire and “melt with fervent heat.” So if you’ve been taught that the sum total of hell-fire is some smoky place beneath the ground, think again. The Bible says our entire sin-polluted planet is destined for the flames.

In addition to that the bible makes it clear where the fire will fall from. In Revelation 20 it specifically says that the fire will fall from heaven just as how it fell on Sodom.

Revelation 20:9,10
And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Its pretty clear where the fire will come from. Now the expression "cast into the lake" is also confusing because some walk away feeling that there is a place somewhere under the earth, or somewhere specially dedicated for people to burn. Such expressions must be seen in the light of context and logics. This lake obviously would be formed as a result of the fire falling form heaven anyway, if you see the point I am making. This lake isn't now in existence, bu tis yet future.

Now if you notice the phrase "devoured them" as apposed to the one that says "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever", you will walk away more confused than anything else if you don't do your home work.  grin Any honest greek student should walk away knowing that the expression forever and ever is a false traslation. Those who translated it thus inserted it in order to impose their religious dogma. You can't have one verse saying devoured implying an completed act, and one expression denoting an indefinite act. These are the issues that lead people from the word, at least those who are not prepared to go beyond the call of duty, and really dig into God's word properly.

What I believe is confusing people is the manner in whcih they view scripture. They isolate passages and attempt to give it a particular meaning, without paying attention to the weight of evidence of the majority of scriptures that contribute to a particular topic.

Peter continued thus,

“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein righteousness dwells.” (2 Peter 3:13).

So as I have continuosly asked over and over, if hell will last forever where would this new earth and heaven be? If, according to the advocates of everlasting burning, that the fire would not cease, and since Peter says that the earth and heavens will be on fire, should we take it that the new heaven and earth that God speaks of is somewhere other than where everlasting fire takes place?

Thats a big fat no! This earth and pulluted heavens will be cleansed once and for all of sin, and when sin and sinners are burnt up according to Mallachi 4:1, then God will make a "new heavens and earth"

It as simple as that.

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