@altheia,

aletheia:

^If only you would let go of your presuppositions concerning James and really look at the verses I posted; you will see that Phil 2:12 is similar to the other verses.

The confusion arises because we often fail to make the distinction between the "works of the Law" and the "works of faith"- a distinction that goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. No man is justified or saved by the works of the Law, but all believers are commanded to bring forth works in keeping with faith. That is what both Paul and James wrote. And if you had completed the quote from Philippians, the full picture emerges:
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Just for clarification purpose , I will like you to give an example of the Works of Faith that can bring salvation.

Thanks.

^Did I in any of my posts suggest that Works of any sort lead to righteousness?

aletheia:

The confusion arises because we often fail to make the distinction between the "works of the Law" and the "works of faith"- a distinction that goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. No man is justified or saved by the works of the Law, but all believers are commanded to bring forth works in keeping with faith. That is what both Paul and James wrote.

Enigma:

Just because some of Joagbaje's writing pisses me off so much:

As I said above if there is something good to gain or some apparent profit, Joagbaje will support the person ---- he will even support the James that he is villifying here if James can be used/twisted to support his greed or delusion. See both Joagbaje's duplicity and delusional folly in full flow on the thread in following link: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-393635.0.html

@Enigma: that link really exposes Joagbaje's mindset and duplicity.

Altheia,

You said James was talking about works of faith, I want you to explain in the light of these scriptures how

James 2:14
14 What[ doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

What kind of work of faith can save a man. James says faith alone can't save him. Also in the scripture below he says justified by work what work justified

James 2:24
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Romans 4:2
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath[ whereof] to glory; but not before God.

aletheia:

@Enigma: that link really exposes Joagbaje's mindset and duplicity.

Can you explain the duplicity pls.

Joagbaje:

Altheia,

You said James was talking about works of faith, I want you to explain in the light of these scriptures how

James 2:14
14 What[ doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

What kind of work of faith can save a man. James says faith alone can't save him. Also in the scripture below he says justified by work what work justified

James 2:24
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Romans 4:2
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath[ whereof] to glory; but not before God.

Can you explain the duplicity pls.

^READ the scriptures: What James is saying is clear.

James 2:14:26.
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What James is saying is clear and consistent with the teaching of Jesus: You may claim that you have faith and believe in God; but that is only a claim unless we can see the evidence of that faith just as in the case of Abraham; we saw the evidence of his faith by his works. A faith that is alive will produce the works of faith.
Perhaps this example may help you: If you take two seeds - one alive and one dead and plant in the soil. How do you know which one is alive? The one that grows and brings forth green shoots.
The parable of the sower is a clear illustration of this principle:

KJV: Luke 8:11-15
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

@altheia,

I understand James point on work of faith . If I pray for money, I should at least work with my hand as a point of contact to receive the money. I don't have problem with that.

But the term I highlighted as regard salvation is the concern. Can faith save him. James is talking about salvation hear, which means you can't be saved by faith alone, but faith and work. I'm now asking you, what kind of work will earn a man salavation. And also about being justified. What kind of work justifies a man if we must add work to it to be justified.

And I still want to know what you mean by my duplicity .

James is NOT talking about works saving anybody! He says that the proof that "faith" has saved you is the "works" that you do.

Devils believe in Jesus! At least we read of one who called Jesus the Holy one of God. Are they saved? No, because their works are darkness!
You claim you believe. Are you saved? Yes, IF YOUR WORKS ARE LIGHT. But if your works are "darkness", then you are not saved!

This is so simple and you cannot say you do not understand this ^^

Duplicity here is quite simple - you use words when they favor you and dismiss them when they seem NOT to favor your current position. For that reason, anyone reading you shifting the goal posts would notice the duplicity - its so obvious and it makes you look "funny"! Read "funny" as cunning and devious!

nuclearboy:

James is NOT talking about works saving anybody! He says that the proof that "faith" has saved you is the "works" that you do.

Devils believe in Jesus! At least we read of one who called Jesus the Holy one of God. Are they saved? No, because their works are darkness!
You claim you believe. Are you saved? Yes, IF YOUR WORKS ARE LIGHT. But if your works are "darkness", then you are not saved!

This is so simple and you cannot say you do not understand this ^^

Duplicity here is quite simple - you use words when they favor you and dismiss them when they seem NOT to favor your current position. For that reason, anyone reading you shifting the goal posts would notice the duplicity - its so obvious and it makes you look "funny"! Read "funny" as cunning and devious!

I'm not aware your name is now Altheia. Stop vomitting your ignorance. Remember you're not a discussant but a street fighter .The Parliament Under the flyover bridge will be suitable for your agbero posts.

^^^ Whether I'm Aletheia or not is not the point. What is pertinent here is that you are totally lost and not even seeking the way back. Accept help and stop showing the pride in your life in addition to the emptiness and lack of knowledge, wisdom and understanding.

Ignorance is what YOU show and you seem to have jealously taken out a patent on it so no one else has right to it, at least on this thread and concerning this matter, Pastor "know-nothing no-teeth"!

I never knew there was a parliament under a bridge. Where's that? Is that where you were brought up that made you such a degenerate? Better return there and claim your mandate from whoever is acting on your behalf. Soon, even oyaks will consider the shallowness of your understanding and kick you out of his empire from embarrassment

^^^^^
Tohuw va bohuw.

@joagbaje
Honestly you should stop reading that filthy pamphelt called rapshody of errors, it could lead you to perdition.

KunleOshob:

@joagbaje
Honestly you should stop reading that filthy pamphelt called rapshody of errors, it could lead you to perdition.

Have you read one? What error did you find. Open a thread bring it up. Analyse them in the light of scriptures.

@Joagbaje:

2 things went thru my mind when I saw the rubbish you posted in response above thinking you were showing "logo" -

[1] Let me see what kunleoshob has to say and he spoke well - you are headed for perdition because you have taken the traditions of men and upheld them higher than the Word of God. Your rhapsody of errors has blinded you to God's truth.

[2] A snake bit Paul! What the Word says is that "he shrugged it off into the fire" and NO HARM came to him. Seeing as you are a snake (and with a very big stomach to match), I will follow the example of the Apostle - I shrug you off AND into the fire (spiritually)! The snake did not think it was being wicked in Pauls case and likely thought it was defending itself from him. So you too might have thought you were defending yourself from me (truth/God's Word/etc). But the truth is - God doesn't play with His own of which number I count and so will prefer that you enter fire than I have "issues".

Savor the fire! It will NOT stop till you accept Christ not in mouth but in truth.

Nuclearboy

Stop all these abuses that don't make sense. You don't achieve anything by it. If you really want to abuse me to your fill, open a thread, and empty your abuses there for me. But if you cone into a thread for intellectuals , use your intellect well. If you have nothing up there, read and go. You must not comment if you have no contribution.

@joagbaje
Jesus had your likes in mind when he made the statement below:

Matthew 15:9 It is no use for them to worship me, because.[B]they teach man-made rules as though they were my laws[/b]

''YOUR REVELATION, YOUR LIMITATION''

oh my oh my. If a question is asked aletheia, nuclearboy his esteemed apprentice answers. With all the good grammar you possess, your ability to communicate still lingers within the armbits of ''you are this, you are that''- all curses no explanations. Very discursive dont you think?

aletheia, please answer the question. what did James mean by faith only can not save him? i have been reading this thread as a ''neutral'' i really want to know what your opinion is/opinions are concerning the issue.

Mba,

Trust me on this- nuke will still gloss over it and make illogical inferences from the verse. If James had not said ''Can only Faith save?'', one would have passed the verse to mean salvation begets good works.

The question can be likened to a Doctor asking ''Can only plasmodium malariae cause malaria?'' ánd he goes ahead to give the impression that the symptoms of malaria (works in salvation context) also cause malaria.

mba emeka:

aletheia, please answer the question. what did James mean by faith only can not save him? i have been reading this thread as a ''neutral'' i really want to know what your opinion is/opinions are concerning the issue.

^^I have already answered your question severally. Please read through my all posts again from the beginning of the thread.

aletheia:

^READ the scriptures: What James is saying is clear.

James 2:14:26.
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
If a brother or sister be unclothed, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What James is saying is clear and consistent with the teaching of Jesus: You may claim that you have faith and believe in God; but that is only a claim unless we can see the evidence of that faith just as in the case of Abraham; we saw the evidence of his faith by his works. A faith that is alive will produce the works of faith.
Perhaps this example may help you: If you take two seeds - one alive and one dead and plant in the soil. How do you know which one is alive? The one that grows and brings forth green shoots.
The parable of the sower is a clear illustration of this principle:

KJV: Luke 8:11-15
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

^^^ And what is it I did above if not explain whats lost to you? James said faith shows from your life. Belief is what all of you are talking about. Thats what DEMONS have - belief! Are demons saved? So whats the difference - works. Demons BELIEVE yet do works of darkness or evil. TRUE Believers also BELIEVE BUT their works are works of light/good. Works are therefore the difference between someone who follows God and someone who's just talking. But thats not what you want to hear,is it? BTW, it would be a pleasure to be Alethiea's apprentice as long as he follows truth. Which is why I can never be apprentice to your master and his ilk - they teach and stand for lies, avarice, error and satan

^^^@nuclearboy: please don't allow them make you lose your peace. You are nobody's apprentice: they use such terms because they must always be following men rather than the Lord Jesus. What amuses me is that it is on threads like this that their ilk surface but when nopuqeater and co are maligning the Lord Jesus, they disappear.

Like you rightly pointed out to them, they focus on "belief", forgetting that even demons "believe" and "confess" that Jesus is Lord: as we see in the Gospels and Acts. It is their faulty perception of faith that makes them "celebrate" every dubious "miracle", forgetting the lessons of several parables and the teaching of the Lord.
Remember the parable of the wheat and tares? The traditional interpretation of that parable is that the tares were somewhat different in appearance from the wheat, but if you look at the Amplified version which translates it more accurately: it shows that the tares are a plant that actually resembles wheat closely (darnel); such that the only way to be certain of differentiating the wheat from the darnel is to wait for them to bring forth fruit; at which time it is seen that the wheat brings forth an abundant ear of grain while the darnel brings forth scanty or nothing. Which is why the Master said to let the wheat and darnel grow together till the harvest lest in trying to root out the tares, the wheat is harmed.

Both wheat and tares claim to have faith, but only the true faith of the wheat brings forth an abundant ear of grain (works of righteousness). Again see the parable of the sower.

nuclearboy:

Works are therefore the difference between someone who follows God and someone who's just talking.

Excellent!

I understand James point on work of faith . If I pray for money, I should at least work with my hand as a point of contact to receive the money. I don't have problem with that.

But the term I highlighted as regard salvation is the concern. Can faith save him. James is talking about salvation hear, which means you can't be saved by faith alone, but faith and work. I'm now asking you, what kind of work will earn a man salavation. And also about being justified. What kind of work justifies a man if we must add work to it to be justified

This is the kind of work that will earn a man salvation

Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33. and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35. for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36. I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37. Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38. And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39. And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40. And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41. Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42. for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43. I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44. Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45. Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46. And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Revised Standard Version

^^^ Brilliant! This then, is understanding!

Pharisees, followers of men's traditions, hair-stylists and cross-dressers, when will you LEARN the deeds of truth?

The kingdom was prepared for God's Own from the beginning of the world FOR/BECAUSE/IN RETURN FOR "when I was hungry, you fed me" etc

[size=14pt]NOT[/size]

"when I was hungry, you preferred to give your all to chris oyakilome to visit the hairdresser for the latest female hairstyles!"

mba emeka:


''YOUR REVELATION, YOUR LIMITATION''

oh my oh my. If a question is asked aletheia, nuclearboy his esteemed apprentice answers. With all the good grammar you possess, your ability to communicate still lingers within the armbits of ''you are this, you are that''- all curses no explanations. Very discursive dont you think?

Very typical of our boy.

aletheia, please answer the question. what did James mean by faith only can not save him? i have been reading this thread as a ''neutral'' i really want to know what your opinion is/opinions are concerning the issue.

That's the one questiion they've been dodging. when altheia gets stuck they get the boy to do the dirty job. Da everywhere ru.

MBA emeka and Fyne guy.
Great to hear again from you guys.

chukwudi44:


This is the kind of work that will earn a man salvation

Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33. and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35. for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36. I was unclothed and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37. Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38. And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or unclothed and clothe thee? 39. And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40. And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41. Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42. for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43. I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, unclothed and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44. Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or unclothed or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45. Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46. And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Revised Standard Version

MINT!!!

Simple, plain, clear and unambiguous. Nothing can be clearer except one chooses to be BLIND

I have taken time to gladly review almost all of the several posts on this thread and l have come to the inference and conclusion based on observation that there obviously a case of misunderstanding, perhaps because of the choice of word usage.

Joagbaje:

MBA emeka and Fyne guy.
Great to hear again from you guys.

And one even had the temerity to state that some are limited by revelation. Now I know why Jesus took a whip to the Temple. Which revelation? Even if all of you don't have the good grammar you keep making noise about, shouldn't you be able to reason?

Or you wish to say they also went to bring "youngies" apart from the "BOY"? Same question that has been answered like so many different ways here and the 3 of them still pretend its not there so they can excuse their error and continue in it.

Na wah O - and this is what we are calling people into. No wonder people look at true Christians as pretending. Its because they see the "face" of christians as scammers, thieves, reprobates and so cannot trust anyone again.

newmi:

I have taken time to gladly review almost all of the several posts on this thread and l have come to the inference and conclusion based on observation that there obviously a case of misunderstanding, perhaps because of the choice of word usage.

Far from it , I think pope chukwudi has taken the bait for them .I will start from there

@Pastor agbaje

why did you think Jesus judged on works as mentioned in matt 25:32-46

Is it not obvious that worsks and faith must go hand in hand to achieve salvation.

St Paul only condemed woks of the mosaic law and not works of charity,any one deceiving himself that simply beleiving in Jesus without anything to show for it will lead to salvation is simply being deceived.Even satan and his angels also beleive in Jesus.

almost everybody seem to agree with the fact that it is a combination of both faith  and works that secures a man's salvation, and nobody is in anyway discrediting the fact that faith is a vital ingredient for Salvation but l think from critical observation that for Joeagbaje, he seem to be particular about the fact that though he does not discredit the place of works in the life of the Christian, he seem to insist on his  claims that what he means is that for a man to be saved from spiritual death which
is separation from God of which every man by virtue of Adam's sin was automatically a part of (Romans 5), such justification can only be obtained by faith according to Romans 5:1-2, this he insist is the message of grace thus he quoted ", by garce are ye saved not of works let's any man should boast, "

At this justure l would kindly wish to summon his attention to the Interest of our curiosity regarding this claims,
Because l would want to know is it that faith is the only reqirement to obtaining justification from dead works and separation from God? Or l have to prove myself qualified for it by my works and good deeds to obtain it? Or the works you seem to recognize are those that are of necessity after obtaining salvation by the singular act of faith as part of the day to day experience that is indicative of the Christian life, like good works of charity, arms giving, being honest and trust worthy, etc

Please explain

newmi:

At this justure l would kindly wish to summon his attention to the Interest of our curiosity regarding this claims,
Because l would want to know is it that faith is the only reqirement to obtaining justification from dead works and separation from God? Or l have to prove myself qualified for it by my works and good deeds to obtain it? Or the works you seem to recognize are those that are of necessity after obtaining salvation by the singular act of faith as part of the day to day experience that is indicative of the Christian life, like good works of charity, arms giving, being honest and trust worthy, etc

Please explain

No matter how you phrase it, your question has already been answered several times.

aletheia:

^If only you would let go of your presuppositions concerning James and really look at the verses I posted; you will see that Phil 2:12 is similar to the other verses.

The confusion arises because we often fail to make the distinction between the "works of the Law" and the "works of faith"- a distinction that goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. No man is justified or saved by the works of the Law, but all believers are commanded to bring forth works in keeping with faith. That is what both Paul and James wrote. And if you had completed the quote from Philippians, the full picture emerges:
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."