In traditional Yoruba culture, Ifá refers to a system of divination and the verses of the literary corpus known as the Odú Ifá. Orunmila is the deity associated with Ifa diviniation. In some instances, the name Orunmila is used interchangeably with the word Ifa. Orunmila is claimed to have brought Ifa divination to the world.

The Yoruba divination system enabled diviners to invoke the teachings of Orunmila, the Yoruba deity of wisdom, prophecy and ethics. Esu (Eshu), who is seen as being in charge of justice and the transportation of ebos, is said to lend his authority (ase) to the oracle to clarify the issues and provide direction. Ifa divination rites are claimed to provide an avenue of communication to the spirit world.

Can you please shed light on the identity of Orunmila.

Does the practice of Ifa divination involve any form of worship of this deity. I observe that there is said to be worship of the philosophy of Ifa.

Do you think that these practices could be harmful/ beneficial.

Pastor, awaiting your comments.

Deep Sight:

Can you please shed light on the identity of Orunmila.

Not really. It is one of two possibilities. Orunmila is a totally mythic character. Or he is an historical character? actually there is a 3rd possibility. He is an historical character that has been developed into myth.

He is called Oba Edu. But the city of Edu is no longer extant. Ifa is full of mythical cities. Not to mention mythical markets. Like the Ejigbomekun market which is said to be situated on the boundaries of Heaven and Earth. They say his message was first accepted in Kwara state in the lands of Ipo and Ofa. That is why there are often references to "Ero Ipo, Ero Ofa". ( the multitudes of Ipo and Ofa).

Deep Sight:


Does the practice of Ifa divination involve any form of worship of this deity. I observe that there is said to be worship of the philosophy of Ifa.

Orunmila is 'worshipped'. What do you mean by worship exactly? The Ikin of ifa can be given ebo. Orunmila is said to love his strong alcohol. If historical, he could possibly have been an alcoholic. He also loves his rats and his fish. These are his main sacrificial victims.
He has his praise songs (if that can be construed as worship) just like every other personage in yoruba culture. But then even animals have their praise songs.

Deep Sight:

Do you think that these practices could be harmful/ beneficial.

Is Fire harmful or beneficial?

Is AIO not a real pastor

Pastor AIO:

Not really. It is one of two possibilities. Orunmila is a totally mythic character. Or he is an historical character? actually there is a 3rd possibility. He is an historical character that has been developed into myth.

In Ifa terms is Orunmila to any extent equated with Olodumare?

Orunmila is 'worshipped'.

What do you make of that practice? Do you think it is consistent with a conscientuous worship of God (ya, the uncaused cause and all that, that's the one i'm referringf to!)

Is Fire harmful or beneficial?

Certainly, I get your meaning. Would you therefore engage in divination say perhaps for good purposes? Or to protect yourself and your destiny?

Deep Sight:

In Ifa terms is Orunmila to any extent equated with Olodumare?

What do you make of that practice? Do you think it is consistent with a conscientuous worship of God (ya, the uncaused cause and all that, that's the one i'm referringf to!)

Certainly, I get your meaning. Would you therefore engage in divination say perhaps for good purposes? Or to protect yourself and your destiny?

Orunmila is called enikeji olodumare. Olodumare's second in command. Eleri Ipin - that is witness to creation. Apparently when Olodumare was creating the world he was there observing everything, thereby giving him the knowledge of how everything works.

Olodumare does not receive ebo. Ebo literally means nourishment. Like an iyawo can 'bo' her oko. Basically that means that wifes feed their husbands. Ebo omo, nourishing a child. Needless to say, eledumare does not need feeding. Nor does he need any of the rituals associated with any of the orisha. Do those rituals amount to worship?

What does worship mean to you? I'd say that it means to give it's worth. Or to value appropriately.

Olodumare does have praise names. Is chanting them 'worship'? To what extent is rhetorics and appellations to be considered as worship.

These people worship me with their mouths but their hearts are far from me.

Matt 15:8

Would I engage in divination for good purposes? Personally, I believe that all instruction can be found within oneself and that resorting to divination is an unnecessary crutch that can serve to block you from accessing the inner instruction. That is not to say that divination is a bad thing. All traditions and cultures have used divination from time immemorial. Whether it is the biblical casting of lots or use of the Urim and the Thummin. Or whether it is the reading of the flight of birds. But ultimately one has to let go of these methods and seek guidance from within.

Pastor AIO:

Orunmila is called enikeji olodumare. Olodumare's second in command. Eleri Ipin - that is witness to creation. Apparently when Olodumare was creating the world he was there observing everything, thereby giving him the knowledge of how everything works.

Would this thus be the Yoruba equivalent of the son of God who is said to have been with God from the beginning and observed the whole creation/ was party to creation?

Staggering similarities. . .

Olodumare does not receive ebo. Ebo literally means nourishment. Like an iyawo can 'bo' her oko. Basically that means that wifes feed their husbands. Ebo omo, nourishing a child. Needless to say, eledumare does not need feeding. Nor does he need any of the rituals associated with any of the orisha. Do those rituals amount to worship?

It is correct for me to understand Eledumare as referring to the same supreme GOD that all religions refer to, yes?

What does worship mean to you? I'd say that it means to give it's worth. Or to value appropriately.

I very much like this definition of worship. But worship can also slightly different connotations.

- - -> Worship could refer to adulation - - -> Man worships money - - -> that is NOT giving appropriate worth to money - that is a form of worship that is classed as idolatry - an obsessive adulation which is unhealthy. My worship of women is certainly unhealthy. It almost brings me to financial ruin. . .

- - -> Worship could refer to that which you have defined it as - appropriate worth.

- - -> Worship could refer to a state of enslavement. This is close to idolatry but slightly different in that idolatry is voluntary. A slave could be said to worship his master. However this is forced. . .nonetheless let us not miss the subtlety that some forms of slavery are voluntary, even when the enslaved does not realize this. . .

- - -> Worship could refer to holy reverence, sacred beholding, and humble supplication. . .in my mind this is the worship that I believe is and should be reserved for GOD. . .would you render this sort of worship to Orunmila, for example. . .especially in light of his supposed presence at the beginiing of creation?

Would I engage in divination for good purposes? Personally, I believe that all instruction can be found within oneself and that resorting to divination is an unnecessary crutch that can serve to block you from accessing the inner instruction. That is not to say that divination is a bad thing. All traditions and cultures have used divination from time immemorial. Whether it is the biblical casting of lots or use of the Urim and the Thummin. Or whether it is the reading of the flight of birds. But ultimately one has to let go of these methods and seek guidance from within.

This is entirely agreed and appreciated. Nevertheless do you think there are some particular forms of divination which may have evil or untoward undertones?

Pastor AIO:

Orunmila is called enikeji olodumare. Olodumare's second in command. Eleri Ipin - that is witness to creation. Apparently when Olodumare was creating the world he was there observing everything, thereby giving him the knowledge of how everything works.

In the light of that ^^^, what exactly is the position of Obatala?

MyJoe:

In the light of that ^^^, what exactly is the position of Obatala?

Obatala was sent down to create the earth with a basket of earth which he poured on the waters and a chicken which spread the earth over the waters, and a chameleon that tested the solidity of the earth, and with the help of the egungun which helped to make firm the earth. Orunmila observed all of that too.

In some myths it is actually Orunmila that descends and does what Obatala is said to have done.

Pastor AIO:

Obatala was sent down to create the earth with a basket of earth which he poured on the waters and a chicken which spread the earth over the waters, and a chameleon that tested the solidity of the earth, and with the help of the egungun which helped to make firm the earth. Orunmila observed all of that too.

In some myths it is actually Orunmila that descends and does what Obatala is said to have done.

I thought; based on secondary school teaching,that it was oduduwa that did the creating of the earth when the initial person sent(not sure who - obatala or orunmila) got drunk on the way and abandoned his mission.

Deep Sight:

Would this thus be the Yoruba equivalent of the son of God who is said to have been with God from the beginning and observed the whole creation/ was party to creation?

Staggering similarities. . .

It is correct for me to understand Eledumare as referring to the same supreme GOD that all religions refer to, yes?

I very much like this definition of worship. But worship can also slightly different connotations.

- - -> Worship could refer to adulation - - -> Man worships money - - -> that is NOT giving appropriate worth to money - that is a form of worship that is classed as idolatry - an obsessive adulation which is unhealthy. My worship of women is certainly unhealthy. It almost brings me to financial ruin. . .

- - -> Worship could refer to that which you have defined it as - appropriate worth.

- - -> Worship could refer to a state of enslavement. This is close to idolatry but slightly different in that idolatry is voluntary. A slave could be said to worship his master. However this is forced. . .nonetheless let us not miss the subtlety that some forms of slavery are voluntary, even when the enslaved does not realize this. . .

- - -> Worship could refer to holy reverence, sacred beholding, and humble supplication. . .in my mind this is the worship that I believe is and should be reserved for GOD. . .would you render this sort of worship to Orunmila, for example. . .especially in light of his supposed presence at the beginiing of creation?

This is entirely agreed and appreciated. Nevertheless do you think there are some particular forms of divination which may have evil or untoward undertones?

Pastor?

I don't think that it is right or fair on either tradition to be mixing and conflating them.

The logos was not an observer of creation but was the means by which creation was created.

Staggering similarities. . .

you can stagger if you want to.

It is correct for me to understand Eledumare as referring to the same supreme GOD that all religions refer to, yes?

I don't know. You need to first ask the adherents of those 'all religions' whether their supreme God is the same. Please ask the christians whether Allah is the same as their God. Then ask the moslems whether Brahma is the same as Allah. When you have their answer, we can start from there.

Worship could refer to a state of enslavement.

Really?

- - -> Worship could refer to holy reverence, sacred beholding, and humble supplication. . .in my mind this is the worship that I believe is and should be reserved for GOD. . .would you render this sort of worship to Orunmila, for example. . .especially in light of his supposed presence at the beginiing of creation?

I don't know what you mean by those terms, 'holy reverence, sacred beholding ' etc etc. But in any case I don't render anything reserved for God to Orunmila no matter how impressive his presence at the creation is.

This is entirely agreed and appreciated. Nevertheless do you think there are some particular forms of divination which may have evil or untoward undertones?

do you mean like ouija, or necromancy? To be honest I have little to no knowledge of these means of divination.

All roads are leading to . . ._{em, er let's wait and see sha.}

Pastor AIO:

I don't think that it is right or fair on either tradition to be mixing and conflating them.

That is mildly surprising, coming from he of the Boddhi Tree/ Eden-Tree fame.

The logos was not an observer of creation but was the means by which creation was created.

Of course.

He is nevetheless said in Jn 1:2 to have been "with" God in the beginning.

Nevertheless we certainly agree: we should not conflate these staggering differences!

I don't know. You need to first ask the adherents of those 'all religions' whether their supreme God is the same. Please ask the christians whether Allah is the same as their God. Then ask the moslems whether Brahma is the same as Allah. When you have their answer, we can start from there.

In light of some of our recent discourses this is most curious indeed.

I don't know what you mean by those terms, 'holy reverence, sacred beholding ' etc etc. But in any case I don't render anything reserved for God to Orunmila no matter how impressive his presence at the creation is.

Very well said sir.

do you mean like ouija, or necromancy? To be honest I have little to no knowledge of these means of divination.

Well I am not familiar with any form of divination at all, so I cannot say. . .I was just wondering if there are neutral signs to be read in nature, and as opposed to these - outright positive revelations of the LIGHT and negative revelations of the darkness? What do you think?

Aside from all these, and back to the purview of this thread - Ifa, I understand, has since been listed by UNESCO as part of the special heritage of humanity. What do you think its value could be in spiritual terms for the Yoruba people as well as all other peoples of the world.

Sometime ago, whilst i used to work with my former employer, i recall one of my colleagues (fire brand christian) vehemently condemning the fact that the company was sponsoring the 2007 Argungu Fishing Festival. . .he described it as sponsorship of demons. . .i recall being terribly sad and tried to prevail on him that it was rather positive sponsorship of indigenous culture and tradition. . .he would have none of it. I was aghast that a native yoruba man like him could so vehemently disdain his own tradition on account of his adopted foreign traditions. . .

Pastor,

Greetings and salutations to you. I am member of an interfaith discussion group that meet once monthly to discuss and understand the mysteries of the scriptures. We delve into the scriptures as well as their accompanying traditions, such as the Talmud and the Tanakh, The Septuagint as well as The Hadiths. I happen to be the only one in this group that has some basic knowledge of Ifa. All the other members were familiar but had no understanding.

Not too long ago we were on the subject of Adam and his creation and the mysteries underlying his formation as well as the creation of Eve . . . .

In reference to what you said here,

Orunmila is called enikeji olodumare. Olodumare's second in command. Eleri Ipin - that is witness to creation. Apparently when Olodumare was creating the world he was there observing everything, thereby giving him the knowledge of how everything works.

. . . without elaborating deeply, I'd like to say that Adam was Orunmila.

Deep Sight:


In light of some of our recent discourses this is most curious indeed.

The bottom line is that there are numerous conceptions of God, and they have all developed variously and separately.

Deep Sight:


Sometime ago, whilst i used to work with my former employer, i recall one of my colleagues (fire brand christian) vehemently condemning the fact that the company was sponsoring the 2007 Argungu Fishing Festival. . .he described it as sponsorship of demons. . .i recall being terribly sad and tried to prevail on him that it was rather positive sponsorship of indigenous culture and tradition. . .he would have none of it. I was aghast that a native yoruba man like him could so vehemently disdain his own tradition on account of his adopted foreign traditions. . .

He is just suffering from self loathing and spiritual regression. There are many of them like that.

Negro_Ntns:

Pastor,

Greetings and salutations to you. I am member of an interfaith discussion group that meet once monthly to discuss and understand the mysteries of the scriptures. We delve into the scriptures as well as their accompanying traditions, such as the Talmud and the Tanakh, The Septuagint as well as The Hadiths. I happen to be the only one in this group that has some basic knowledge of Ifa. All the other members were familiar but had no understanding.

Not too long ago we were on the subject of Adam and his creation and the mysteries underlying his formation as well as the creation of Eve . . . .

In reference to what you said here,


. . . without elaborating deeply, I'd like to say that Adam was Orunmila.

What is it with you interfaith folks and this wicked rubbish you like doing??

Ok, i'm all for interfaith peace understanding and tolerance but not at the cost of forcefully marrying traditions together to make it sound cool and 'esoterically connected' from one great 'source'.

This is just how it starts before you know, our history and traditions are gone. Thats how some fools have been trying to marry yoruba history and traditions with islam now our history has been so distorted that people now believe yorubas are from mecca.

Adam IS NOT orunmila. Adam DOES NOT EXIST in yoruba culture. Marriage is NOT by force. Haba

Tudor,

while there are many that are diluted about the origin of Yorubas, I am not one of those. If the Torah had been given in Yoruba as its original language, the word Adam would not have been in it. In its place would be Orunmila.

I also want to share with you that Abraham had a religion. It was not Judaism, it was not Christianity and it was not Islam. . and neither is it idol worshipping. It was IFA. Take that anyway you want.

Negro_Ntns:

Tudor,

while there are many that are diluted about the origin of Yorubas, I am not one of those. If the Torah had been given in Yoruba as its original language, the word Adam would not have been in it. In its place would be Orunmila.

I also want to share with you that Abraham had a religion. It was not Judaism, it was not Christianity and it was not Islam. . and neither is it idol worshipping. It was IFA. Take that anyway you want.

There is something seriously wrong with your head.

If you substitued the word Adam and in its place put orunmila in genesis and looked at the story, tell me if it in any way corresponds with the yoruba belief of Orunmila that it can be outrightly stated Adam IS Orunmila.

Look, you have been warned, stop messing with our history.

. . . .if you read Genesis like a textbook, yes you are right, the substitution does not fit. However, if you are blessed with the ability to unlock the mystery and study the numbers and the repetitions in them, they you will discover the error in your response.

Negro_Ntns:

. . . .if you read Genesis like a textbook, yes you are right, the substitution does not fit. However, if you are blessed with the ability to unlock the mystery and study the numbers and the repetitions in them, they you will discover the error in your response.

Wtf??
You my friend are a mad man and need help.

;d ;d

Pastor AIO:

The bottom line is that there are numerous conceptions of God, and they have all developed variously and separately.

Deep Sight:

That is mildly surprising, coming from he of the Boddhi Tree/ Eden-Tree fame.

Aaah, I get the incongruence.  I seem to be contradicting myself. 

I'm not.  Let me explain myself.  There are various ways in which cultural phenomena may be connected.  In other words, there are different ways in which an idea or a phenomenon can start in a society.

There is the natural way, through the idea travelling through time and space from one society to another.  The idea or phenomenon then evolves over time and is passed from one location to another.  In this mode cultures learn by coming into contact with other cultures and getting new ideas from them and then developing those ideas.

On the other hand there is a inspirational way.  Here the idea or phenomenon is received or learnt from another source (spirit) and hasn't come into being by being developed from an earlier form, or coming into contact with another culture.  Rather it seems as if the idea has arisen spontaneously without contact with any other similar culture. 

An example of the first way could be seen in the development of the modern day english phonetic alphabet.  This originated in the middle east where before writing was just signs that represented ideas.  Then they developed phonetic writing where the signs represented vocal sounds, consonants and vowels.  In arabic the first letters were

Alif . . .  ba . . . ta . . . .gim . . .

In Hebrew the first letters were

Aleph  . . .  beth . . . gimel . . . daleth . . .

Then the greeks came into contact with them and borrowed the idea to develop their own

Alpha . . . Beta . . . gamma . . . delta . . .

The Romans then adopted the greek alpha . . beta, now called the alphabet and from there the rest of the western world developed their respective alphabets.   And then centuries later they came to africa to colonise and they applied the idea of the phonetic alphabet to our languages and now we have A B D E E(h) F G Gb.

We can easily trace the evolution of the alphabet historically by seeing where cultures came into contact with each other. 

However how do you explain cultural phenomena that are staggeringly similar yet the cultures in which they are found have never come into contact with each other.   Not only are the cultures in which they are found remote from each other, but their neighbouring cultures do not adopt those phenomena.  So it is very peculiar or unique to those people.  One cannot say that it has any usefulness otherwise the neighbours would have adopted it too.

For instance Yodelling.  Okay, you can say that American yodelling in country music comes from switzerland and the alps, but how do you explain yodelling by the bushmen in tropical africa who have never even come into contact with many of their neighbouring african tribes.  How do you explain persian yodelling.
[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDDEk2AMJAI?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDDEk2AMJAI?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/flash]

olboy, I tire for this una flash stuff.  I don't know how to put up youtube videos.  It is always changing.  This is the link sha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDDEk2AMJAI

Then check out these guys from the congo.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWEpnHZ9XFE&feature=related


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98Xj_oLkRT4

Then these swiss guys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E-q5tfb9V4&feature=related

please let me defend what I had to say about the Serpent and the Tree and it's ubiquity in various cultures. In the book of genesis we read that there is a tree in the garden and on the tree or near the tree was a snake that enticed eve and then Adam to eat it's fruit which then made them like Gods. How unique is this tale. It is unique in some senses but the actual image of it, the iconography from which it stems is very primal and universal.

Check out this image:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mosaico_Trabajos_Hércules_(M.A.N._Madrid)_11.jpg

This is taken from the story of Herakles in Greek mythology. He was given a quest to pluck the fruit from the tree in the middle of the Garden of the Hesperides. Who are the Hesperides? They were a form of the triple Goddess. In those days Goddess was perceived in trinity form. Often as 3 sisters. The problem with plucking this fruit is that the tree was protected by an enormous ferocious snake. 'Ah ha!!', you exclaim, perplexed. But in genesis the snake enticed them to pluck the fruit, in this tale the snake is protecting the tree and stopping herakles from plucking the fruit. Last last sha, herakles overcame the serpent and stole the fruit.

Okay o, what about this image:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestand:Ningizzida.jpg

Here we have a snake but in dual form, set upon a tree. What is extra interesting about this scenario though is that the snake on the tree are protected by cherubim. Cherubim are winged lions. The only difference from the bible image is that these cherubim don't have a flaming sword which turns in all direction. The serpent is called Ningizzida and is considered a deity in Sumeria.

Ningishzida (sum: dnin-ǧiš-zid-da) is a Mesopotamian deity of the underworld. He is the patron of medicine[citation needed], and may also be considered a god of nature and fertility. His name in Sumerian is translated as "lord of the good tree"[1] by Thorkild Jacobsen and "lord who makes the trees grow right" by James Well.[2] In Sumerian mythology, he appears in Adapa's myth as one of the two guardians of Anu's celestial palace, alongside Dumuzi. He was sometimes depicted as a serpent with a human head.

Ningishzida is the earliest known symbol of snakes twining (some say in copulation[who?]) around an axial rod. It predates the Caduceus of Hermes, the Rod of Asclepius and the staff of Moses by more than a millennium.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ningishzida

The following website seems a bit wacky, but it explores the origin of the ubiquitous belief in the tree of life.

The Tree of Life is one of the most pervasive and enduring legends in the history of religion. It was a real tree that grew on the planet millenniums ago. It's history is pan-cultural. Belief in it's reality spans from deep within the stone age to the present. It has always been associated with divinity and immortality. It was the axis mundi otherwise known as the world tree to the cultures of that time. Along with the Tree of Life is the Earth Goddess. The Earth Goddess is directly associated with the Tree of Life. Both are extremely potent symbols and both are embedded within the evolving cultures of early man which has their roots in the Andite culture. A third symbol unsurprisingly associated with both the Tree of Life and the Great Goddess is the serpent. This is more than a story of a tree and a goddess. It is of a movement of people, language and culture and how we came to be. Through all the twists and turns, ebbs and flows, this is our forgotten history, and it starts a long time ago.

http://firstlegend.info/thetreeoflife.html

In fact you can read most of these connections in the first chapter of this book by Joseph Campbell, The Masks of God. Check out chapter 1, the Serpents Bride.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/36108751/Joseph-Campbell-The-Masks-of-God-Occidental-Mythology

Negro_Ntns:


. . . without elaborating deeply, I'd like to say that Adam was Orunmila.

Please do go ahead to elaborate deeply, I am all - ears.

Alif . . . ba . . . ta . . . .gim . . .

In Hebrew the first letters were

Aleph . . . beth . . . gimel . . . daleth . . .

Then the greeks came into contact with them and borrowed the idea to develop their own

Alpha . . . Beta . . . gamma . . . delta . . .

The Romans then adopted the greek alpha . . beta, now called the alphabet and from there the rest of the western world developed their respective alphabets. And then centuries later they came to africa to colonise and they applied the idea of the phonetic alphabet to our languages and now we have A B D E E(h) F G Gb.

We can easily trace the evolution of the alphabet historically by seeing where cultures came into contact with each other.

Pastor,

After the flood, Noah, his wife and three children were the only humans on earth. Through the ages the world was populated through them. There is a connection between the development of the Arab aplhabets (and numerals) and the curse on Canaan. For note Arabic numerals are the only natural numbers in any existing culture in which the digit zero (0) is included. But staying on the alphabets and letters, at one time the entire universe spoke one language. When the confusion and divergence began, Arab culture was the only one that retained letters and ended up being the model that other cultures copied (except the Chinese). There is a connection between that curse on Canaan, African rituals as well Chinese civilization.

I will say this again, Nimrod (spelt Namarod in Hebrew and Lamaradu in Yoruba) was the great grandson of Noah. Nimrod, while in Babylon built an empire and an ambition that led to the dispersion of languages. That point in history is relevant to the migration of Ifa to Africa and I-ching to China.

However how do you explain cultural phenomena that are staggeringly similar yet the cultures in which they are found have never come into contact with each other. Not only are the cultures in which they are found remote from each other, but their neighbouring cultures do not adopt those phenomena. So it is very peculiar or unique to those people. One cannot say that it has any usefulness otherwise the neighbours would have adopted it too.

See above comment.

Please do go ahead to elaborate deeply, I am all - ears

DeepSight,

certain things are inappropriate for revelation on the public domain and I dont know you close enough to even share with you in private.

I will say this to you. . . and everyone else reading this, go and read Genesis beginning chapter 6 from verse 15 to chapter 8 verse 29.

We cannot use geography to explain human life, but without doubt life has a geographical basis that history cannot neglect. Geography, history and religion are inextricably bound together.

As you know, in scriptural accounts numbers aren't always intended to establish the exact number of things but often to indicate the spiritual significance and meaning hidden in the mystery. For example, 7 mean plenitude, 12 mean authority and 40 mean preparation for a transformation or a rebirth or new beginning. Sometimes a given age can be broken down into its factors to obtain the meaning of the message.

I want you to study the dimensions of the ark and the numbers revealed by God to Noah in those verses and if you have deep insight you should begin to see a pattern.

The numbers are arranged in three sequence.

1. In relation to the ark (what we would call a ship or a boat but in actuality, for this event it meant more than just a boat). With the ark, God used certain number sets. No repetitions and no markers.

2. In relation to the living things embarking into the boat, he used a different number set accompanied with repetitions. No markers.

3. In relation to the rituals and the new beginnings (now that you know 40 stand for new start) , he used a different set of numbers and with repetitions. For this sequence he put markers at the beginning and end of it using age and dates.


There is truth for those seeking to know. As they say, . . . .when the student is ready, the teacher shall appear!

To the extent that the story of Adam in the bible does not tally with anything said about orunmila in yoruba religion, I would say that Adam cannot be Orunmila.

Pastor AIO:

To the extent that the story of Adam in the bible does not tally with anything said about orunmila in yoruba religion, I would say that Adam cannot be Orunmila.

You do not see an inconsistency in your views to the extent that you have laboured to draw strings of similarity in religious lore which is identical to the inter-faith attempt of the sort being advanced by Negro Ntns. I did not revert on your serpent and Boddhi/ Eden Trees response above because when I earlier checked out your links there was more to suggest asymmetry than symmetry and I did not wish to go round in circles. It just seems interesting to me that you have turned about to play "spot the differences". . .

^^^ didn't you read my post above. I explained that there will be differences based on history, location etc. But there will be similarities due to the fact that they emerge from a primal source deep in the essence of existence.

Another example. I've never flown like a bird before in my life. Neither have I run without moving anywhere. Nothing in my life experience is similar to this. So when one night I have a dream in which I am being chased and I'm running and running and running yet I am not moving and my pursuer is drawing closer and closer to me I am astounded. This dream cannot have come from my waking experience. Not only that but after discussing it with a few friends I find out that others have had similar dreams and in fact it is a common dream. Well not only is it not based on my waking experience but wherever it comes from others have accessed it too.

there are a few theories I could think of to explain the phenomenon. One is that there is actually a language of the mind that determines the structure of dreams and the events that happen in them. This is a fixed language and influences the dreams of every human being.
Now in my dream I could have been wearing shorts and been on the beach. Meanwhile in my friends dream he was wearing trousers and he was in the middle of the high street.
Of course anyone could jump on those differences and say that our dreams are totally unconnected. On the other hand it cannot be denied (I don't think) that there is something in common in both dreams.

Now imagine an iconograph that depicts a serpent on a tree and a women standing next to the tree and they present an approaching man with a fruit from the tree, and that fruit is a special boon. This imagery can be found all over the world in the folklore of many peoples. What is different is how the image is interpreted. There are also slight differences in details. For instance in the story of Herakles and the Tree of the Hesperides the serpent is not enticing Herakles to eat the fruit, but quite the opposite, it is protecting the tree and it's fruit and Herakles has to outsmart the serpent to get the fruit.
At the start of the story of Paris and Helen of Troy there is another reversal of the image. Instead of the Goddess handing the fruit to Paris it is the other way around. Paris is presenting the fruit to the Goddess, in this case Aphrodite. Yet all the elements of the myth are there. The tree, the serpent, and the Goddess (often in trinity form).
It is recognisable when buddha is seeking enlightenment and finds it under the Bodhi Tree, during which a protective Serpent rises to shelter him.

It is either you see the common threads or you don't. I can't convince you. Maybe I'm the one that is deluded reading commonality where there is none and you're right, but I cannot shake off the feeling that it's blatantly evident that they are common patterns.

To the extent that the story of Adam in the bible does not tally with anything said about orunmila in yoruba religion, I would say that Adam cannot be Orunmila.

follow-up. . . .

He is called Oba Edu. But the city of Edu is no longer extant. Ifa is full of mythical cities.

You are correct that the city is no longer in existence but while it existed, where was it located? Look up ERIDU, a city that was in the Akkadian territory of old and would today be placed in about Iran or Iraq.

@ Pastor - That there are common threads in mythology cannot be denied. I cannot go over this all over again, I have said everything I have to say in the thread "Four Noble Truths." In one instance you are ready to see similarities but in another instance of equally clear similarities you say - "I don't think that it is right or fair on either tradition to be mixing and conflating them."

Basically you are able to draw similarities about trees and fruits, but this -

Orunmila is called enikeji olodumare. Olodumare's second in command. Eleri Ipin - that is witness to creation. Apparently when Olodumare was creating the world he was there observing everything, thereby giving him the knowledge of how everything works.

- - - - which contains strong similarities with that which is conveyed in the first three verses of John 1 - you shy away from 'mixing and conflating'. . . I could just as well adjure you not to 'mix and conflate' the other traditions you mentioned, some of which are not even as compelling in similarity as this one. . .

Now let us carefully note that there can indeed be different corruptions of the same original myth. Nevertheless not all myths containing the same motifs are related. Trees are an exceedingly common object and I do know of hundreds of myths regarding trees back in my native Cape Coast, Ghana, but I tell you, these have nothing, I say, nothing, to do with Eden or Buddha or even related ideas.

You seem to be mis understanding me, as well as being inconsistent yourself. I could never deny common threads in mythology. And your example in your last post entirely resonates with me. I leave it.

Let us focus on IFA. My intendment on this thread was to learn from the fountain of your traditional knowledge. . .let us concentrate on that. . .