From my inbox.

Stay away if you are too sensitive, otherwise raises a lot of salient issues that will bring to the fore the realities on ground in the middle east.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++==

The moment of truth has arrived, and it has to be said:
Israel does not want peace. The arsenal of excuses has run
out, and the chorus of Israeli rejection already rings
hollow. Until recently, it was still possible to accept
the Israeli refrain that "there is no partner" for peace
and that "the time isn't right" to deal with our enemies.
Today, the new reality before our eyes leaves no room for
doubt and the tired refrain that "Israel supports peace"
has been left shattered.

It's hard to determine when the breaking point occurred.
Was it the absolute dismissal of the Saudi initiative?
The refusal to acknowledge the Syrian initiative? Prime
Minister Ehud Olmert's annual Passover interviews? The
revulsion at the statements made by Nancy Pelosi, the
speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives, in Damascus,
alleging that Israel was ready to renew peace talks with
Syria?

Who would have believed it? A high-ranking U.S. official
says Israel wants peace talks to resume and instantly her
president "severely" denies the veracity of her words. Is
Israel even hearing these voices? Are we digesting the
significance of these voices for peace? Seven million
apathetic Israeli citizens prove that we are not.

Entire generations grew up here weaned on self-deception
and doubt about the likelihood of achieving peace with
our neighbors. In our younger days, David Ben-Gurion told
us that if he were only able to meet with Arab leaders,
he would have brought us peace in his time. Israel has
demanded direct negotiations as a matter of principle and
Israelis have derived great pride from the fact that their
daily focus on "peace" has concealed their state's lofty
ambitions. We were told that there was no partner for
peace and that the ultimate ambition of the Arabs is to
bring about our destruction. We burned the portraits of
"the Egyptian tyrant" at our bonfires on Lag Ba'omer, and
were convinced that all blame for the lack of peace lied
with our enemies.

After that came the occupation, followed by terror, Yassir
Arafat, the failed second Camp David Summit and the rise
of Hamas to power, and we were sure, always sure, that it
was all their fault. In our wildest dreams, we wouldn't
have believed that the day would come when the entire
Arab world would extend its hand in peace and Israel would
brush away the gesture. It would have been even crazier to
imagine that this Israeli refusal would have been blamed
on not wanting to enrage domestic public opinion.

The world has been turned upside down and it is Israel that
stands at the forefront of refusal. The policy of refusal
of a select few, a vanguard of the extreme, has now become
the official policy of Jerusalem. In his Passover
interviews, Olmert will tell us that, "The Palestinians
stand at the crossroads of a historic decision," but people
stopped taking him seriously a long time ago. The historic
decision is ours, and we are fleeing from this crossroads
and from these initiatives as if from death itself.

Terror, used as the ultimate excuse for Israeli refusal,
only helps Olmert keep reciting, ad nauseum, "If they [the
Palestinians] don't change, don't fight terror and don't
adhere to any of their obligations, then they will never
extract themselves from their unending chaos." As though
the Palestinians haven't taken measures against terrorism,
as though Israel is the one to determine what their
obligations are, as though Israel isn't to blame for the
unending chaos Palestinians suffer under the occupation.

Israel makes a point of setting prerequisites and believes
it has an exclusive right to do so. But, time and time
again, Israel avoids the most basic prerequisite for any
just peace - an end to the occupation. Of all the questions
asked during his Passover interviews, no one bothered to
ask Olmert why he didn't react with excitement to the
recent Arab initiatives, without preconditions? The
answer: real estate. The real estate of the settlements.

It's not only Olmert who is dragging his feet. A leading
figure in the Labor party said last week that "it will take
five to 10 years to recover from the trauma." Peace is now
no more than a threatening wound, with no one still talking
about the massive social benefits it would bring in
development, security, freedom of movement in the region
and by establishing a more just society.

Like a little Switzerland, we are focusing more these days
on the dollar exchange rate and on the allegations of
embezzlement leveled against the Finance Ministry than on
the fateful opportunities fading away before our very eyes.

Not every day and not even in every generation do we
encounter an opportunity like this. Although it's not
for sure if the initiatives are completely solid and
believable, or if they are based on trickery, no one has
stepped up to challenge or acknowledge them. When Olmert
is an elderly grandfather, what will he tell his grand-
children? That he turned over every stone in the name
of peace? That there was no other choice? What will his
grandchildren say?

Gideon Levy is an Israeli journalist for Ha'aretz, a member of its editorial board and former spokesman for Shimon Peres [1] A recurring theme of his articles is what he calls the "moral blindness" of the Israeli society to the effects of its acts of war and occupation, an attitude which he attributes to the systematic dehumanization of Israel's neighbours. During the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, he joined a distinct minority of Israeli commentators by rejecting the view that this was a "just war" whose civilian casualties were inevitable and acceptable.

Levy was born in 1955 in Tel Aviv as a child of European immigrants. From 1978 to 1982 he served, along with Yossi Beilin as aide to Shimon Peres. Since 1982 he writes for the Israeli daily Haaretz, where in 1986 he first reported about the occupation and Palestinian life under the occupation.[2] In 1996 he was awarded the Emil Grunzweig Human Rights Award by the Association for Civil Rights in Israel.

Journalist and feminist activist Irit Linur accused Levy of "shoddy work": "Gideon Levy's whole career is filled with shoddy work, because he's one of the only journalists in the world dealing with Arab issues, who doesn't speak Arabic, doesn't understand Arabic and doesn't read Arabic. They simultaneously translate for him and it's enough for him. In my opinion, that's amateur journalism." [3] Ha'aretz's publisher Amos Schocken wrote "In my opinion, Gideon Levy’s reports should be read principally as a description of the effect of the Israeli occupation on the lives of the Palestinians in the territories." [4]

References

1. ^ "Gideon Levy, Shimon Peres's former personal aide and one-time Labor Partyspokesman." Honig, Sarah. "Brains in deep freeze." The Jerusalem Post, Pg. 8B. Friday, October 20, 2000.
2. ^ Le Monde September 5, 2006(French)
3. ^ News First Class (NFC) (Hebrew)
4. ^ News First Class (NFC)

This man was born in Israel and has worked with a former prime minister.

The article was not about the politics in the Arab world but the reality in the way Israel has been handling the issue especially the way it keeps talking about peace without talking about the fundamental issue in the conflict - occupation abi na real estate as the man put am for the article.

Go through Afam's post in other islamic-related issues (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-52087.0.html) and we understand his focus on Isreal through a shoddy journalist. We need not go further on this matter as in his head all he needs is anything whatsoever that says non-islams (especially christians, isreal and the west) are bad, bad people.

Somze,
i am only contributing because of your post.
afam is a leftist.
he is a well known person who has in all his post accept things that others reject. he praise people that others course.
he in one of his posts admired iran president as the most outspoken president in the world.
he has in seperate occassions praised the likes of Mugabe, Saddam Hussian, Osama Bin Laden as well as such groups as Hamas and hezebullah.
in another post, he made an incomplete statement saying; fighting is not a solution to terrorism and till date, he is yet to tell us the solution.
he has been against Bush and the west for their war against terrorism which means praising the planers and executioners of septmember 11.
teleban is now in nigeria and afam is a worshiper of obj in nigerian politics while he hate bush in his international war against terrorism but he is yet to comment on obj's drastic action against the members of teleban in kano a couple of weeks back.
is either bush is right in his war or obj has gone mad like bush for his efforts in deleting any sign of the teleban.
if bush is mad and obj is mad for killing all these killers then my prayer is that let the taleban extend their jobs to whosoever supports that and their families.
if isreal does not want peace, then who in the world wants peace?
hezeboulah wants peace, hamas wants peace and iran wants peace.
we are all interested in the wars outside the contenent of africa while the death rate in zimbabwe and suddan and no longer a thing of concern as those dying there are goats and not human beings.
who knows what name afam will give any one who takes it upon himself to remove mugabe from the post of zimbabwian president.

Chidichris,

It seems you lack home training as you tell lies without thinking twice, do you have any shame at all?

Do you really think before you post anything? You are always incoherent, I doubt if you even understand your own posts.

I am not a crowd follower, I am an independent thinker so the rubbish being posted by chidichris about Afam supporting those that other hate or praising those others condemn is a thinking that only comes from a mentally retarded human being.


As for the PH person analysing my posts on islamic related issues I wish to let him/her know that I am not a brainwashed human being and I do not believe in the ideology of if you cannot beat them join them.

I am a practicing christain without any plans to embrace islam, I stick with the facts, truth and look at issues objectively, I offer no apologies for the inability of some of us to comprehend even simple issues.

Before we deviate way too much I must remind the 2 posters that their style of avoiding issues completely and choosing to focus on personalities is a style that is dead, ineffective and shows complete lack of intelligence.

Trash the issues raised by the Israeli journalist and leave Afam out of it unless as they say the idle mind likes to discuss people rather than issues.

I am sick and tired of reading from these religous bigots that preach one thing and do another, hypocrites.

@topic,

Although it's not  for sure if the initiatives are completely solid and believable, or if they are based on trickery,

Until this concern by the author is assuaged, I see no reason why Isreal should let their guards down to the people who will wipe them out without a second thought if presented with the opportunity!!

The countries who are calling for these initiatives do not have diplomatic relations with Isreal and the parties to be negotiated with call for the destruction of anything Isreal in their charter and yet we are saying Isreal should sit at a round table with them!  How preposterous.  Very soon, we will begin to blame the U.S. for not heeding Osama Bin Ladin's call for a round table discussion!!

@Afam,

You fool yourself when you say you are a free thinker.  No one is.  We are all influenced by people, by books, teachers, the society etc.  To be free of other's influence is to be a dead man.

@Afam

It seems you lack home training as you tell lies without thinking twice, do you have any shame at all?

It is a very strong claim you make here that Chidichris was infact lying but you did not care to refute any of his numerous claims. Infact Chidichris took time to mention a lot of incidences, but this was the best you could do -

I am not a crowd follower, I am an independent thinker so the rubbish being posted by chidichris about Afam supporting those that other hate or praising those others condemn is a thinking that only comes from a mentally retarded human being.

To me that sounds like an excuse for taking the stand which chidichris outlined in details. Do you know the meaning of lying or implying that someone is a liar?

You should do well to check your language in future.

And concerning the rest of your post TayoD's reply was more than efficient.

I'm out of here.

TayoD:

@Afam,

You fool yourself when you say you are a free thinker. No one is. We are all influenced by people, by books, teachers, the society etc. To be free of other's influence is to be a dead man.

Learn to speak for yourself not others. That you are influenced by anything doesn't mean anyone else is.

Also force yourself to carefully choose your words when addressing people because from experience you are always the first to start complaining when people reply to your posts in kind.

@The PH pig,

Since we must come down to an elementary level for you to understand anything ask the person that stated that I had praised Osama bin Laden to reproduce anywhere I did so.

A liar is someone that lies and I have called him one because he stated a lot of lies but I have only stated one.

Until you are able to discuss issues and leave out personalities you will remain a confused human being.

It took what, all of 7 posts for this thread to be shown for the trash that it is. Enough said.

It seems religous fanatism and fundamentalism is on the rise (especially with the christains) without them realising it.

We may be worse than those we criticize everyday.

If peace can be achieved when the issue of land occupation is trashed out and up till today Israel is pushing that major issue into oblivion then it makes sense to agree with the writer that Israel does not want peace.

The good thing about truth is that no matter how long it takes it will come out in full force and stare everyone in the face.

Those of us that were called names right from the first day Bush entered Iraq because we knew he was lying through his teeth have been vindicated while those that were completely fooled by the lies coming from the Bush administration hid their faces in shame when the issues became clearer.

Pride they say goes before fall. We are waiting.

@Afam,

Learn to speak for yourself not others. That you are influenced by anything doesn't mean anyone else is.

Okay sir. Next time I will keep in mind that you are not subject to any outside influence. Not any from parents, siblings, church, mosque, school, friends and foes alike.  But I must confess, you are the only person I know who never learnt anything from anybody.  Until now, I used to think that knowledge is built on past knowledge.  I'll explain. Much of the science and engineering today is based off of laws discovered by others.  Even if we have new technology, we know it is influencd by those laws that were discovered and articulated by the past generation.  I guess you must be an exception to that rule!!

It seems religous fanatism and fundamentalism is on the rise (especially with the christains) without them realising it.  We may be worse than those we criticize everyday.

I'm glad you used the qualifier "We".  It is good to know those of you who call yourselves Christians and are worse than the Islamo-fascists who run planes into buildings with the intention to kill as many civilians as possible.  I am sure you cannot begin to associate such action and fudamentalism to Christ.  Perhaps you should find other name to call yourself other than Christian.

While you are busy worried about those whose fundamentalism is rising, you will do better to address those whose religious fanatism has reached its apochy and is manifested in acts of terrorism we see worldwide.

If peace can be achieved when the issue of land occupation is trashed out and up till today Israel is pushing that major issue into oblivion then it makes sense to agree with the writer that Israel does not want peace.

Who is occupying whose land? It is interesting that the grave of Herod was discovered this week in Jerusalem.  Guess what Herod was called during his time - The king of the Jews.  I wish we could find relics and proof that the land belong to the Palestines as far back as the time of Herod.  Maybe you can go a few centuries earlier or later than that to try to prove the impossible.  Every archeoalogical discovery in that land points to only one people - the Jews.  How can a people's heritage, lineage, history and culture be found in a piece of land and yet we get the effontery to say the land belong to someone else?  The greatest hero we know in the histroy of the palestines is a man called Arafat and like the rest of the Palestines, he is a recent migrant to that land. If you can prove otherwise, I will be so grateful for such enlightenement.

The good thing about truth is that no matter how long it takes it will come out in full force and stare everyone in the face.

Yeah.  Like the truth called Herodium that just surfaced this week.  It was buried for long but is now out in full force staring at you in the face!

It is stupid and utter bigotry when Christians support America on its war against the Muslims. People allow their emotions to cloud their judgment.

@TayoD

I believe what Afam means by "free thinker" is not swallowing what the media wants you to swallow. You can be influenced by parents brothers colleges bible etc, but you don't swallow all hook line and sinker.
This is wikipedia on free thinking Freethought is a philosophical viewpoint that holds that beliefs should be formed on the basis of science and logical principles and not be comprised by authority, tradition, or any other dogma2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freethought


@Pro-Israeli apologist

You are Anti-Jewish if you have a different opinion, but you will never hear anybody being accused of being
anti-Muslim. Is this not because the Jews control the American media.
In the eighties the issue of the day was apartheid South Africa. These are the same (right wing)elements who glorified South Africa then.
Have we all forgotten the economic and military co-operation between Israel and South Africa?
Israel and South Africa were the axis of evil to many people in the eighties.
SA ended it apartheid rule, Israel will also end its occupation of Arab lands.
People did not support S Africa's apartheid policy because it was morally wrong, same reason I won't support Israel, even though am a Christian. It will be double standard if I do.
Are we just happy that we have found a common enemy in Islam? This situation can reverse tomorrow, Blacks are the traditional underdogs hence we should not jump for joy because it's not us in the firing line now.
Attack the article with facts.
The said article was written by "Gideon Levy". Does the name sound Jewish?

@Mariory

Mariory:

It took what, all of 7 posts for this thread to be shown for the trash that it is. Enough said.

Wise decision, I think the topic may be out of your depth (clever boy). Try "My wife won't suck my privates" thread.

@Zion Bush's supporter

To see a Nigerian support this man and his cohorts in Israel breaks my heart.
Even American conservatives are beginning to see this man for what he really is. His reign will be remembered by its expensive and misguided foreign policy and nonexistent progress at home.
Check this out
" Of 415 historians who expressed a view of President Bush’s administration to this point as a success or failure, 338 classified it as a failure and 77 as a success. " Courtesy of history news network. http://hnn.us/articles/5019.html The 415 historians are Americans not Nigerians.

President George W. Bush has been named the worst president in the last 61 years by American voters -- with nearly twice the negative rating of Richard Nixon.
Americans are waking up to the fact that this man is a lunatic, his last remaining support will probably come from fundamentalist Christians in Nigeria.
We are the outsiders who weeps more than the bereaved.

@Somze,

Am a leftist
You said Afam was a leftist. I think I am too, I'll tell you why.
(1)I refuse to accept Israel's reasons for holding on to other people's lands
(2)I condemned the invasion of Iraq
(3)I supported (In the eighties) the release of Nelson Mandela (I was involved in many protest at South Africa Embassy)
The above list is by no means exhaustive, because i would fight for any oppressed person in Nigeria or overseas.
I will sleep well tonight knowing am a leftist who supports oppressed people.

Afam,
i must confess here that i don't feel offended with whatsoever u say here especially about me.
in details and in simplicity, i want to take you by your words and critically analyse your claims one after the other.
my only regrets here is u never answer any question raised by your posts.
all the same, u claim to be a practicing christain, where is the promise land as mentioned in the Bible?
on the other hand, you said you are an independent person never get influenced by other peoples' beliefs, where else have you been outside nigeria and where are you now? to what extent do you know iran, isreal or even Benin republic?
what do you know about the arabs, Iran and the muslims outside nigeria?
my dear intelectual, are you aware that the only solution that iran has presented through hamas and hezeboulah is Isreali's total withdrawal not conditional or partial? if you know this, then to where will they go?
i ask you again mr peace negotiator, you mentioned here that isreal does not want peace, then tell us what they want and then tell us who in the middle east that wants peace- the iran president?
in one of your posts, you admired and praised the iran president as the most inteligent/outspoken president then i ask you here now, is it in a wise man's life that a president can call for a wipe out of an independent nation even when the country in question is s super power?
Afam, are you saying isreal keeping quiet over so calls by iran is part of their unreadiness to embrace peace and do you want to tell us here that every other country can take such?
in most cases, i tried to overlook your posts but i can't be in such a class where blind men led men with eyes.
i just called you a leftist because you are always on the wrong lane. even in nigeria where every dick and harry knows the politics of the day, you still lecture us and feed us with poison.
what is the current situation in Imo state now? where is ararume? what happened to him? i told you this same ararume came to power by the same manner of selection and has been enjoying the game till the ill wind blow to his part and he is shouting. obj as a king kong, bring people up and send them back at will. see the senate because of preasure has made obj a free man with atiku nailed but we all know the truth but we are all helpless.
but you afam who i strongly believe is less than the lower class of onicha trader stand among others to call all of us here names one after the other but you have failed totally to present us with proven points.
i am here in dubai and i meet with different sets of arabs and iranians and pls be informed that iran has never accepted top be addressed as arabs. they call themselves persians and they have no good relationship.
trace the real arabs and the have never picked up war against isreal after egypt felt the heat. president abdullah of jordan is about taking on the isreali - palestine peace talk and he is a core arab man.
abbas the palestine president made a land mark in the peace talk and he is pure arab leader as they have come to the realities on ground that war can never get them their interest.
come to the think of it, Mr. christain, are you not aware that it is one of those promises of God to the isrealites that they shall never loose in any war?
anyway, i can feel how blocked you are inside and the only way forward for you will be reply my insults and overlook my laid down point but it is my suggestion that you reply both point in and point out as that will put you in the same level with gani and soyinka as you claim.

@chidichris

Before Afam replies in his unique way I just wanted to correct you on some points you made. You said

i ask you again mr peace negotiator, you mentioned here that isreal does not want peace, then tell us what they want and then tell us who in the middle east that wants peace- the iran president?

If Israel wants peace, the least it can do is grant independence to the Palestinians. Would you be happy if Nigeria was being occupied by Cameroon? Iran as far as i know have never invaded any country. Israel on the other hand goes to war on the flimsiest of excuse. Did you witness what they did to Lebanon last summer?
I hold no brief for the Iranian president but he's the only one standing up to Israel. The other Arab nations are cowards, Libya for decades shouldered the Palestinian question on its own.

afam long time no yan how u dey

well u keep saying u r a free thinker but most of ur post are either anti isreali or anti american can u draw the correlation
or probably u could tell us why u r so so so pro arab?

mind u the arabs have always turned around and said/acted oppositely whenever a peace deal is sign, so we could say to an isreali an arab cant be trusted

well let the isreali be on the offensive for once and lets see how it turns out, cos i sure think i know the arabs they also dont want peace

Tornadoz:

You said If Israel wants peace, the least it can do is grant independence to the Palestinians.

How do you "grant independence" to palestine when you are not occupying their land? TayoD gave a brilliant analogy earlier, the tomb of Herod (King of the Jews over 2000 yrs ago!) was recently uncovered in the last week, until the Palestinians can prove on the basis of archeological evidence and history that the land of Isreal belongs to them, the Jews do not owe them any independence!

Tornadoz:

Would you be happy if Nigeria was being occupied by Cameroon? Iran as far as i know have never invaded any country. Israel on the other hand goes to war on the flimsiest of excuse. Did you witness what they did to Lebanon last summer?

It is not difficult to note those arguing on the side of sentiments rather than reality. Is Isreal occupying Palestine? Virtually all areas of the land of Isreal today are historically noted to belong to the Jews; bethlehem, Judea, Jordan river, Nazareth, the wailing wall, jerusalem, herodium, capernaum e.t.c. all have historical links to the jews. What proof do the palestinians have to claim ownership of the land?
Can we with all honesty claim that Isreal is illegally occupying the land?

It is easy to hypocritically accuse Isreal of going to war on "flimsy" excuses afterall palestinians only hurl stones at Jewish soldiers. To bring up the Lebanon crisis and blame it on Isreal is to play the ostrich. Can you honestly accuse Isreal of being the aggressor in that war? Why did Hezbollah attack Jewish positions and capture 2 soldiers? For how long did you expect Isreal to keep ignoring the presence of the enemy on its borders hurling rockets with ball bearings at residential areas and kindergarten schools? For how long should Isreal have condoned suicide bombers?
Can we sincerely claim that Isreal would still be standing today had its enemies been able to acquire superior weapons?

Drop the biased lenses, if Nigerien rebels were hurling rockets at Lagos and Abuja, would the Nigerian army be wrong to attack Niger?

Tornadoz:

I hold no brief for the Iranian president but he's the only one standing up to Israel. The other Arab nations are cowards, Libya for decades shouldered the Palestinian question on its own.

In what way is the Iranian president standing up to Isreal? What has Isreal done to Iran? Is Iran standing up to Isreal BECAUSE of Palestine OR BECAUSE of a hidden islamic agenda to wipe out the Jewish race to prepare the way for the coming of the 12th imam?
Iran recently deported 300,000 Afghanistanis, is this a nation that is remotely interested in the welfare of its muslim neighbours?

Iran have denied the holocaust, built a museum mainly to insult Jewish symbols, is presently building a nuclear arsenal to attack Isreal, has repeatedly called for Isreal to be wiped OFF the map; lets be honest, is this all because of their deep love for palestine?

Why is Libya "shouldering the palestinian question on its own"? It is amazing how virtually ALL muslim nations are "shouldering the palestinian question"! Where are these muslim nations when Palestinians seek refuge in their nations? Where were these muslim nations when palestinians had to go without pay for months because Isreal, America and Europe, the alleged enemies of the muslim world withheld funds to palestine?

What is so special about Palestine that ALL Arab nations are struggling to shoulder the question? Is it really about Palestine or Islam? Why are the arab nations not interested in a disintegrating Iraq? Where are these Arab nations when Afghanistan is degenerating into anarchy? Where were these muslim nations when Kuwait was invaded by Iraq?

Tornadoz:

@Mariory
Wise decision, I think the topic may be out of your depth (clever boy). Try "My wife won't suck my privates" thread.

That your thinking ability may be on a par with that of a retard is no excuse to subject the rest of us with your stupidity. You have no clue of the history of the land called Palestine. You have no clue of the dynamics of politics involved in this region of the middle east. You have no clue of the complexities of the armed conflicts that go on in said region. Put simply, it appears you have no clue.

Lest you try to come up with what you think is a clever retort, I suggest you utilise the other brain cell and do some research on what 'Palestine' actually is.

kaecy5:

afam long time no yan how u dey

I am cool and hope you are too.

kaecy5:

well u keep saying you're a free thinker but most of your post are either anti isreali or anti american can u draw the correlation
or probably u could tell us why you're so so so pro arab?

I do not see life as pro this or anti that. I point out specific actions of people or country especially those ones that every honest person can see without allowing religous bigotry or hate for a people affect the way I see them.

However, if pointing out the atrocities of the Bush led administration and the senseless killing of innocent ones in the last Israeli war with the people of Lebanon all in the name of fighting Hezbollah fits into your definition, feel free to associate me with that.

I am neither a muslim nor an arab so there is absolutely nothing to make me pro arab assuming such an option is on the table.

kaecy5:

mind u the arabs have always turned around and said/acted oppositely whenever a peace deal is sign, so we could say to an isreali an arab can't be trusted

What peace deals are you talking about? The ones that clearly avoids the main issue which is the lands seized in 1967 or what? Only cowards will watch and clap for people that seize their lands.

kaecy5:

well let the isreali be on the offensive for once and lets see how it turns out, because i sure think i know the arabs they also don't want peace

Your personal opinion is well noted even though Isreal has been on the offensive for quite some time now using superior weaponry to hold on to other peoples lands.

Do me one favour, ask this Chidichris to stop addressing Afam as he seems to be the most incoherent person on this forum as I could not go past the first few lines of his badly written post.

@Tornadoz,

We have religious bigots on this forum that usually post comments only when the issue has to do with Islam, Israel, Arab etc and the hatred they have for arabs and muslims have completely destroyed any chance of objective reasoning.

It is a shame that some people are talking about historical ownership of lands that ere seized some years ago in a war.

I wonder if they will maintain the same line of reasoning if the native americans start a war in the US to claim their lands that were forcibly taken away from them by the europeans.

And more importantly many of these people oppose Mugabe of Zimbabwe for returning lands to the rightful owners.

You see what bias, sentiments, double standards and inconsistencies are leading these people to.

Afam:

It is a shame that some people are talking about historical ownership of lands that ere seized some years ago in a war.

As usual, no attempt to provide concrete reasons why Isrealis must vacate their lands for Palestinians who are mainly immigrants from other Arab nations! How did the land of Isreal fall into Palestinian hands in the first place? That may be a place to start rather than the escapist "lands that were siezed in war in 1967!"

It is a shame that political correctness has taken the place of common sense today.

To equate the Palestinians on the same platform as native americans is hypocrisy.

Afam:

And more importantly many of these people oppose Mugabe of Zimbabwe for returning lands to the rightful owners.

I'm sure the native Zimbabweans including your "rightful owners" of lands are proud of Mugabe and his 2200% inflation rate. What better stroke of genius than to return land to "rightful owners" so that they can use wheel barrows to cart money to the market to purchase a loaf of bread.

@davidylan

Your first statement

How do you "grant independence" to palestine when you are not occupying their land?

Countless UN resolutions including the International Court of Justice ruled that the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem are occupied. Check UN resolution 446, Resolution 465 and Resolution 484, among others.

It is not difficult to note those arguing on the side of sentiments rather than reality It is not difficult to note those arguing on the side of sentiments rather than reality. Is Isreal occupying Palestine? Virtually all areas of the land of Isreal today are historically noted to belong to the Jews

After reading the above UN resolutions, come back and tell me what sentiments swayed me. I think you are the one being sentimental.

It is easy to hypocritically accuse Isreal of going to war on "flimsy" excuses afterall palestinians only hurl stones at Jewish soldiers.

Using live ammunition against protesters is like killing an ant with a sledgehammer.

To bring up the Lebanon crisis and blame it on Isreal is to play the ostrich. Can you honestly accuse Isreal of being the aggressor in that war?

I never said Israel was the aggressor in that war, I did however imply that Israel saw an opportunity to destroy the Lebanese infrastructure.
By the way watching Israel bombing Lebanon was like watching Mike Tyson punching a 5yr old round after round.

In what way is the Iranian president standing up to Israel?

By funding the Palestinian intifada.

BECAUSE of a hidden islamic agenda to wipe out the Jewish race to prepare the way for the coming of the 12th imam?

I thought sentiments was out of the question.

What is so special about Palestine that ALL Arab nations are struggling to shoulder the question?

Surely you know the answer to this, anyway same reason South Africa was special to African nations in the 80s.

Why are the arab nations not interested in a disintegrating Iraq?

Because America is running the show there.

Where are these Arab nations when Afghanistan is degenerating into anarchy?

Same reason as my answer above.

@Mariory

You have no clue of the complexities of the armed conflicts that go on in said region. Put simply, it appears you have no clue.

Er, I thought you would provide your expertise on these matters.
Seriously if I wanted to hear from somebody with your IQ, I'd be at my local kindergarten.

Tornadoz:

@davidylan

Your first statement Countless UN resolutions including the International Court of Justice ruled that the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem are occupied. Check UN resolution 446, Resolution 465 and Resolution 484, among others.
After reading the above UN resolutions, come back and tell me what sentiments swayed me. I think you are the one being sentimental.

UN resolutions are just about worth the paper they are written on. UN and the International Court of Justice claim the West Bank, Gaza strip and East Jerusalem are "occupied"; historical and archeological evidence however points to the FACT that those lands RIGHTFULLY belong to the Jews! That is a FACT everyone is trying so hard to wish away by quoting worthless UN resolutions.
Was it not the same UN and ICJ that claimed Bakassi belonged to Cameroun based on agreements signed between England and France? Countries that are not even on the African continent!

Tornadoz:

Using live ammunition against protesters is like killing an ant with a sledgehammer.

Pray what do suicide bombers, Hamas, Hezbollah use againts innocent Jewish children in kindergarten schools? rubber bullets and water bombs?

Tornadoz:

I never said Israel was the aggressor in that war, I did however imply that Israel saw an opportunity to destroy the Lebanese infrastructure.

And what opportunity did Hezbollah see? Do you honestly believe the Isrealis could have bombed a guerrilla group using civillians and Lebanese infrastructure as shields without causing damage? What of Isreali infrastructure damaged by suicide bombers and hezbollah rockets?

Tornadoz:

By the way watching Israel bombing Lebanon was like watching Mike Tyson punching a 5yr old round after round.

you and i know that if the superior weapons were with the enemy Isreal would long have ceased to exist! All this round about dribbling is taking us no were!

Tornadoz:

By funding the Palestinian intifada.

By funding terrorism you mean? Why is Iran funding the intifada and yet leave the funding of the Palestinian economy to Isreal and the US?

Tornadoz:

Surely you know the answer to this, anyway same reason South Africa was special to African nations in the 80s.

Lets stop all these bold faced deciet! How many African nations were funding terrorist activities in South Africa during apartheid? Did we call for the wiping out of the white race? The same Arab nations you claim are interested in Palestine have REFUSED to take responsibility for the refugees from Palestine!

Tornadoz:

Because America is running the show there.Same reason as my answer above.

Was America running the show in Quwait? Well before the US-Afghan war, were where the Arab nations when the Taleban took Afghanistan to the brink of collapse? Where are these same nations now that Sudan is on the verge of mass genocide? Is America running the show there too?

@Davidylan

UN resolutions are just about worth the paper they are written on.

Depends where you stand with the UN e.g America would deride the UN unless it needs UN, to rubber stamp its actions.

historical and archeological evidence however points to the FACT that those lands RIGHTFULLY belong to the Jews!

Who are these historians? Are they Jews or Americans. Were Arabs amongst these highly respected historians?

Pray what do suicide bombers, Hamas, Hezbollah use againts innocent Jewish children in kindergarten schools? rubber bullets and water bombs?

Last time I checked Hamas and Hezbollah are guerilla armies. Israel on the other hand is a state.

What of Isreali infrastructure damaged by suicide bombers and hezbollah rockets?

This is what am saying, suicide bombers are hardly an army.

you and i know that if the superior weapons were with the enemy Isreal would long have ceased to exist! All this round about dribbling is taking us no were!

If Israel allow for a Palestinian state, their would hardly be a major problem with its neighbours.

By funding terrorism you mean? Why is Iran funding the intifada and yet leave the funding of the Palestinian economy to Isreal and the US?

Israel funding the Palestinian economy? That is very wrong. Here is the statistics of Palestinian funding
Total Disbursed % of Total
EC 25%
United States 17%
Sweden 8%
Saudi Arabia 7%
United Kingdom 5%
Germany 4%
Norway 4%
World Bank Group 2%
France 2%
Algeria 2%
Islamic Development Bank 2%
United Nations (various) 1%
Other 20%

Lets stop all these bold faced deciet! How many African nations were funding terrorist activities in South Africa during apartheid?

Zambia and the neighbouring African states was the haven for all the freedom fighters. Are you saying you never heard of car bombs in South Africa in the 80s? When Shagari said Nigeria was thinking of building a Nuclear plant, did you forget the response of South Africa?

Was America running the show in Quwait?

Yes they were.

Well before the US-Afghan war, were where the Arab nations when the Taleban took Afghanistan to the brink of collapse?

Actually it was the Soviet Union that took them to the brink of collapse, while America was funding the Taliban. How ironic.

Tornadoz:

@Davidylan

Depends where you stand with the UN e.g America would deride the UN unless it needs UN, to rubber stamp its actions.

One can say the same for your big brothers Iran and other Arab countries! They spurn UN resolutions whenever they can and then use the same resolutions to blackmail Isreal!

Tornadoz:

Who are these historians? Are they Jews or Americans. Were Arabs amongst these highly respected historians?

Archeology and history have NOTHING to do with politics! The jews are busy finding artefacts and documents that CONFIRM their long history on the land of Isreal, no one is begrudging the Palestinians from doing the same to prove that they deserve to be on the land instead of the jews. I'm sure you recently heard about the finding of King Herod's grave at the Herodium. . . Arab historians are free to disprove Isreal's version of history so long as they can convince us of their veracity!
Besides a Jordanian archeologist recently discovered a cave that proves John the Baptist did baptise at river Jordan.

Tornadoz:

Last time I checked Hamas and Hezbollah are guerilla armies. Israel on the other hand is a state.

I expect you have more reasoning than to spout this kind of mischief! So launching rockets at defenceless Jewish children is acceptable so long as it is done by guerilla armies but unacceptable for Isreal to fight back because it is a state?
Where do these "guerilla armies" get their weapons from? The moon?
Hezbollah was formed by members of the Iranian revolutionary guard, is actively armed and funded by Syria and Iran and yet you claim it is a guerilla army?
The president of Palestine is a Hamas bigwig and yet you claim it is merely a guerilla army?
So it is perfectly okay for supporter of APC fighters to destroy Darfur because they are "guerrilla armies"?

Tornadoz:

This is what am saying, suicide bombers are hardly an army.

It took just 9 men to destroy the two tallest buildings in the world, killing over 3000 people in the process in the world's most powerful nation!

Tornadoz:

If Israel allow for a Palestinian state, their would hardly be a major problem with its neighbours.

You and I know this is the most decietful argument of all! Here is an excerpt from "the covenant of Hamas":

-----------------------------

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.'

------------------------

'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and

kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the

rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind

me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)

Please come up with better lies and contradictions.

Tornadoz:

Israel funding the Palestinian economy? That is very wrong. Here is the statistics of Palestinian funding
Total Disbursed % of Total
EC 25%
United States 17%
Sweden 8%
Saudi Arabia 7%
United Kingdom 5%
Germany 4%
Norway 4%
World Bank Group 2%
France 2%
Algeria 2%
Islamic Development Bank 2%
United Nations (various) 1%
Other 20%

0% from Libya, Iran, Syria and Lebanon, the most vociferous nations allegedly shouldering the burden of the Palestinian question?
At least 65% of the funds to Palestine come from the USA and European nations that you all claim to be hostile to the Palestinian cause. Is that not laughable? Where is Egypt, Yemen, Quatar, Jordan e.t.c. on that list?

Tornadoz:

Zambia and the neighbouring African states was the haven for all the freedom fighters. Are you saying you never heard of car bombs in South Africa in the 80s? When Shagari said Nigeria was thinking of building a Nuclear plant, did you forget the response of South Africa?

This is irrelevant! Did you for once think Shagari was trying to develop nuclear weapons to bomb South Africa? Kai! Common sense!

Tornadoz:

Actually it was the Soviet Union that took them to the brink of collapse, while America was funding the Taliban. How ironic.

The Soviets withdrew their troops from Afghanistan in 1989!

davidylan:

UN resolutions are just about worth the paper they are written on. UN and the International Court of Justice claim the West Bank, Gaza strip and East Jerusalem are "occupied"; historical and archeological evidence however points to the FACT that those lands RIGHTFULLY belong to the Jews! That is a FACT everyone is trying so hard to wish away by quoting worthless UN resolutions.
Was it not the same UN and ICJ that claimed Bakassi belonged to Cameroun based on agreements signed between England and France? Countries that are not even on the African continent!

So UN resolutions are now worthless papers?

So historical facts and archeological findings are enough reasons for Israel to hold on to occupied lands? The sentiments here are ming boggling.

Meanwhile it seems you don't have any clue why Bakassi went to Cameroun from your comments.

The agreement was not between England and France but between Nigeria and Cameroun during the Nigerian-Biafran war. Gowon signed away Bakassi just to guarantee that all supplies coming into Biafra from that route were halted.

Learn to discuss issues you have understanding of abeg.

@davidylan

One can say the same for your big brothers Iran and other Arab countries! They spurn UN resolutions whenever they can and then use the same resolutions to blackmail Isreal!

Is Iran a member of the Security council ?Are you saying Iran has such leverages at the UN to spin resolutions. Haba.

Archeology and history have NOTHING to do with politics!

I hope it didn't, but sadly it does. It is laughable to expect Jewish archaeologist and historians to say we were wrong all along, the land belongs to you Palestinians. History is always written by the conquerer and not the conquered.

The jews are busy finding artefacts and documents that CONFIRM their long history on the land of Isreal, no one is begrudging the Palestinians from doing the same to prove that they deserve to be on the land instead of the jews.

If only they were allowed to roam free on the land of their forefathers rather than having to carry identity cards to move from point A to point B. Do you honestly think the Israeli govt will grant "visa's and passes" to Palestinian historians looking for evidence that prove they hold a valid claim to that land?

Besides a Jordanian archeologist recently discovered a cave that proves John the Baptist did baptise at river Jordan.

He's not quite a Jordanian. Check this out http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200408/s1178088.htm.
He is a British archaeologist named Shimon ( Shimon sounds Jewish to me)Gibson.
Also check out what Steven Ortiz (director of the Center for Archaeological Research at New Orleans) an eminent Archaeologist said at the time of this discovery. He on the other hand believes Byzantine Christians began associating the site with John the Baptist due to its proximity to his hometown. John was born in Ein Kerem only two and a half miles away.

I expect you have more reasoning than to spout this kind of mischief! So launching rockets at defenceless Jewish children is acceptable so long as it is done by guerrilla armies but unacceptable for Isreal to fight back because it is a state?

No where did I imply it was acceptable. However I did say Israel is a state and a member of the United Nations, and must have signed the United Nations charter and it has an obligation under that charter.

Hezbollah was formed by members of the Iranian revolutionary guard, is actively armed and funded by Syria and Iran and yet you claim it is a guerilla army?

Since it is not a regular army then it must be a guerilla army.
This is wikipedia's entry "a method of unconventional combat by which small groups of combatants attempt to use mobile and surprise tactics (ambushes, raids, etc) to defeat a foe, often a larger, less mobile, army."

The president of Palestine is a Hamas bigwig and yet you claim it is merely a guerilla army?

Palestine is not a state so can't have a president. If you mean president of Palestinian Authority then you are wrong again because he is not a member of Hamas. Palestinian Authority president is Mahmoud Abbas, and he leads the Fatah movement i think you probably meant Ismail Haniya , the Hamas leader.
Lest we forget, Israel's first and longest-serving Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion was himself a terrorist according to British records of the time.

It took just 9 men to destroy the two tallest buildings in the world, killing over 3000 people in the process in the world's most powerful nation!

Well it's taken the pen of another man (George Bush) to kill half a million.

You and I know this is the most decietful argument of all! Here is an excerpt from "the covenant of Hamas":'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.'

They are fundamentalist Moslem's no surprise there. If Israel was not a state and was fighting for independence you'll have fundamentalist Jews.

This is irrelevant! Did you for once think Shagari was trying to develop nuclear weapons to bomb South Africa? Kai! Common sense!

He muted the idea of building a nuclear plant. It was the reaction of the SA govt that I referenced, I never said we were going to bomb SA.

The Soviets withdrew their troops from Afghanistan in 1989!

And!

@Tornadoz,

Well, I must confess that your responses are concise, precise and clear.

If only we can say things the way they are the world would be a whole lot better but in reality many will manufacture theories and no matter how wrong the theories are they will be used to build arguements.

Thanks for the responses again.

@Afam
Good morning o'l boy. How you dey self.
Am of to work now, be back later in the evening.