@babs787 (and all Muslims),

Right. Here are my responses to the challenges you offered in several threads. First, let me reiterate I have nothing against Muslims (not having being one before); and my posts are offered from the perspective of my being a Christian rather than a Muslim.

[size=14pt]A[/size]. Is The Qur'an A Complete Book?

As regards the issue of the inconsistencies and incompleteness of the Qur'an that you've been pretending do not exist, here they are.

You brought up the fallacious argument that the Bible is an incomplete Book because it mentions a few other books which cannot be found in it; such as the book of Jasher, the book of Nathan the prophet, the book of Jehu, and the Acts of Uzziah. Despite an initial explanation that those books were not regarded as part of the inspired canon of Scripture, you dogmatically kept on shlepping the same weathered argument in several other threads. Let's not forget that in the initial thread, you boldly asserted that the TORAH was LOST or corrupted.

If there's any substance in that kind of reasoning, then it only means that your xenophobia applies heavily in just the same manner to the Qur'an. One could argue by the very same rule, that the Qur'an is NOT a complete book because most of the books it mentions are NOT found in the holy book of 'Allah' that Muhammad gave Muslims. In just the same way you applied the rule of the so-called "missing books" to the Bible, we shall be applying the same rule to see how many "missing books" can be deduced from the Qur'an.


The Missing Books of the Qur'an

The following are the BOOK[b]S[/b] the Qur'an claims Muhammad's 'Allah' sent down; and we want to know WHERE they are, and WHAT HAPPENED to them:

#1. Where are the BOOK[b]S[/b] of Moses?  ||   Sura 53:36
'Nay, is he not acquainted with what is in the Books of Moses'

#2. Where is the Book of Abraham?  ||  Sura 87:18-19
'And this is in the Books of the earliest (Revelation),- The Books of Abraham and Moses.'

#3. Where are the honoured books?  ||  Sura 80:12-16
'So let him who pleases mind it. In honored books, Exalted, purified,
In the hands of scribes, Noble, virtuous.

#4. What 'books' are being referred to; and WHERE are they?  ||  Sura 66:12
'And Marium, the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity,
so We breathed into her of Our inspiration and she accepted
the truth of the words of her Lord and His books, and she was of,
the obedient ones[/color].'

#5. Where are the 'Sacred Books' and Books of Deeds?  ||  Sura 54:43 & 52
'Are your Unbelievers, (O Quraish), better than they? Or have ye
an immunity in the Sacred Books? - All that they do is noted in (their)
Books (of Deeds)'

#6. Where are the mystic Books, babs787?  ||  Sura 26:196
'Without doubt it is (announced) in the mystic Books of former peoples.'

#7. Where are the "previous books"?  ||  Sura 20:133
'And they say: Why does he not bring to us a sign from his Lord? Has not
there come to them a clear evidence of what is in the previous books?'

#8. What is the Book; and where is it today??  ||  Sura 3:48
'And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel'

#9. Where is the Mother of the book, babs787?  ||  Sura 13:39
'Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.'

#10. Where are "His Book[b]s[/b]", and why are they NOT in the Qur'an?
Sura 4:136 - 'O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture
which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to
those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books,
His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.'
(see also Sura 2:285)

#11. 'The Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation - WHERE are they??  ||  Sura 5:68
'Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye
stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come
to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord,
that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy.
But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.'

Now a few questions:

In regards to Q. 4:136 (see #10 above), why was Muhammad's 'Allah' asking people to believe in HIS BOOK[b]S[/b] if it is true that those books are already LOST? If nobody knows their whereabouts because they are lost, what do Muslims today claim about Sura 4:136 - is it one of the abrogated verses as well? And if that verse was referring to the Bible, why is 'Allah' asking people to believe in the same Books of the Bible that Muslims today attack with unbridled calumny?

Where are "the Law, the Gospel, and ALL the revelation" (Q. 5:68 ) that the Qur'an wants us to stand fast by; and which Muslims now claim have been LOST? Are "ALL the Revelations" of 'Allah' LOST as well? Why was Muhammad's 'Allah' not able to keep or preserve what he claimed came from him; and yet now asks "People of the Book" to believe in what Muslims claim are LOST, according to you, babs787?? Why was 'Allah' asking people to believe in ALL the revelations that are LOST if he already knew that they were non-existent in Muhammad's day??

Further, if Muslims are honest at all, since they claim that the TORAH and INJIL are LOST, why do they desperately sweat to "prove" that Muhammad is in the TORAH and INJIL of the Bible that they attack? Muslim apologists often try to "prove" that Muhammad was prophesied in Deuteronomy 18 and John 14 & 16. Why the dishonest claim that they are 'lost', and then come back quoting those same books of the Bible?

Since the above books (plural - BOOK[u]S[/u]) are NOT found in the Qur'an itself, it only establishes the fact that the Qur'an is an INCOMPLETE book in just the same way Muslims allege against the Bible. Only a dishonest and deliberately deceitful person will apply a certain rule for castigating others, but cries foul when the same rule is applied to his own camp. It is this die-hard tendency of calculated deceit and double-speak that got me thinking and served as one of the many issues that made me refuse to be a Muslim even though I was raised in a large Muslim family.

Answering Allegations Against The Bible

As we have seen, the typical argument offered by vexed Muslim propagandists accusing the Bible to be an incomplete Book, is the references to certain books which are not included in the canon of Scripture. These include the book of Jasher (2 Sam. 1:18 ), the book of Jehu (2 Chron. 20:34), and the books of Nathan the prophet and Gad the seer (1Chron. 29:29) among a few others.

My Christian response is that these books are mentioned only as references and not as Scripture. It was common in early Jewish history to find prophets, seers and others recording events of national interest to Israel. Some of these writers are simply called "recorders", and their writings were not viewed as divine Scripture:

1Kings 4:3 - "Elihoreph and Ahiah, the sons of Shisha, scribes; Jehoshaphat the son of Ahilud, the recorder."
1Chron. 18:15 - "And Joab the son of Zeruiah was over the host; and Jehoshaphat the son of Ahilud, recorder."
Isaiah 8:2 - "And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah."

However, such documents were never viewed in Israel's history as inspired Scripture; nor have they been quoted by the OT saints as interpretation for doctrinal issues for the religious life of Israel.

Even more remarkable is that the core issues mentioned in reference to those books of the seers are still found in the Bible! The narratives are not lost!! For instance, mention is made of the book of Jehu recording the acts of Jehoshaphat, first and last (2 Chron. 20:34). Does the Bible not record the life and ministry of the same Jehoshaphat in the OT? Read 1 Kings chapters 15 to 22; II Kings chapters 1 to 3; II Chronicles chapter 17 to 20; and see for yourself!

Despite the answers offered, it is the typical Muslim propaganda to glom onto issues like this in their allegations against the Bible as being an incomplete book. The Bible is indeed a complete book. Since some Muslims are typically strangers to truth and reason, I've applied the very same rule to their holy book just to find out how many books are missing from the Qur'an.

Let the Muslim answer the question: Where are those books the Qur'an mentions but are NOT found in 'Allah's' book at all??


Versions and Revisions of the Qur'an

Another Muslim complaint against the Bible is that there are so many translations and revisions that have been necessitated by the defects of previous editions of those translations.

babs787:

Your bible confirmed that it has grave defects. Read the preface of the RSV 1971 and I quote:

‘ The king James Version has with good reason been termed ‘the noblest monument of English prose’. Its revisers in 1881 expressd admiratin for ‘its simplicity, its dignity, its power, its happy turns of expression… the music of its cadences, and the felicities of its rhythm…. We owe it an incalculable debt.

Yet the King James Version has grave defects. By the middle of the nineteenth century, the development of biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version was based, made it manifest that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision of the English translation.’

Is it not rather comical that you're belly-dancing around the RSV and conveniently playing hide-and-seek with the revisions of the Qur'an? Okay, your problem is with the KJV being revised. I wonder what 'grave defects' led the translators of the Qur'an to undertake revisionist work on the Qur'an. Three English translations of the Qur'an among others by muslims that have undergone several revisions include:

#1. [bTranslation of the Glorious Holy Qur'an with Commentary[/b] - by Ali Ahmad Khan (Lahore, 1962); styled by the author as 'a True and Easy translation of the Glorious Qur'an', nonetheless has passed through 3 Editions after having been adjudged to be with numerous mistakes in its translations.

#2. The Meaning of the Glorious Qur'an - by Pickthall, Muhammad Marmaduke William (London, 1930); reputed to be one of the most widely used translations among Muslims, yet has undergone at least 27 Editions! One has to wonder why there are so many revisions that led to subsequent editions. Besides the fact that the Mentor publication (451 MJ1529 195) contains a few errors/omissions, many Muslim readers of this translation hold that it is not entirely free from serious mishaps, as Pickthal in some instances sacrifices the meaning of several verses at the expense of the euphemistic expression intended; while doing the opposite in other instances. Even though his translation is titled 'The Meaning of the Glorious Qur'an', Pickthall notes in the foreward of his 1930 edition that the Qur'an CANNOT be translated; and that the result of his translation is NOT the glorious Qur'an!

#3. The Holy Qur'an: Translation and Commentary - by Ali Abdullah Yusuf (Lahore, 1934-37); another extremely popular translation favoured by most Muslims, has undergone no less than 35 Editions! Many Muslims are nonetheless suspicious of this translation, holding that it is not entirely free from errors; and flaw it on the basis of his sufistic bias and UNOTHODOX views in his notes to the Qur'an (see Kidwai, A.R., 'Abdullah Yusuf Ali's Views on the Qur'anic Eschatology', Muslim World League Journal 12 (5) February 1985, pp. 14-17).

There are many other English translations of the Qur'an, and I have not come across ONE that any honest Muslim scholar approves as entirely free from error in translation - not even ONE. As a matter of fact, if Pickthall was right that the Qur'an cannot be translated, it follows that any translation into any language is bound to have errors, no matter how scholarly are the translator(s). My persuasion is confirmed by the following statement:

"Please keep in mind that ANY translation of the Qur'an will most definitely contain errors."

This is found in this website of Islamic resources:

 http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/qmtintro.html 

babs787:

The Quran is the last book revealed to the seal of the prophets because the original message of both Torah and Gospel cannot be found.

There's something really laughable about this kind of reasoning. You claim that the Qur'an is the last book revealed to the seal of the prophet[b]s[/b], and you were unable to disclose the "previous" books of 'Allah' before he brought out his "last" book! Where are the Psalms, the Injil and the Torah that Muhammad claimed were sent down by 'Allah'?? Where are they?

Now, if "the original message of both the Torah and Gospel cannot be found" (same as your claim that they are 'LOST'), then WHY HAVE YOU BEEN DESPERATELY SEEKING TO "PROVE" THAT MUHAMMAD IS FOUND IN THE TORAH (DEUTERONOMY 18) AND THE GOSPEL (JOHN 14 & 16) OF THE BIBLE??

Why this display of deliberate dishonesty and double-speak on your part? Since the "Torah" and "Gospel" of the Qur'an cannot be found, then what is Muhammad doing in the OT Torah and the NT Gospels of the Bible?? If there's any substance to your claims, then your position only proves indeed that MUHAMMAD IS NOT THE PROPHET OF DEUTERONOMY 18:15 & 18!! And I've debated that in another thread, which you have not gone back to counter my claims. It is for this reason that I stayed off the roundabout argument until now that you simply continue your propagandist adventure.

Any attempt to come back and quote the OT or NT will prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that you're towing the line of hypocrites and dishonest Muslim apologists who feed you with such self-contradictory arguments!!

You can confirm my assertion by coming back to quote any verse of the Bible for Muhammad (since you cannot find him in your LOST Torah and Injil); and in doing so, we shall see how much of a stranger you are to truth and reason!!

[size=14pt]B[/size]. The Missing And Cancelled Verses of the Qur'an

The second set of accusations Muslims often hold against Christianity is that there are so-called missing verses in the Bible. Notwithstanding the explanations variously offered for this misconception, Muslims often reject them wholesale while at the same time bragging that there are NO missing verses in the Qur'an. Really??

babs787:

Without even going into the Quran, it has been established the the bible is incomplete. I have been telling you that if you think that the Quran is incomplete as some apologists have been claiming, bring out a verse as I have done.

The reason for this Muslim jactitation is that they have the false security of thinking non-Muslims would never discover the truth behind their braggart claims for the Qur'an. There is such a deep sense of apprehension among Muslims that if the truth is discovered that there are indeed missing verses in the Qur'an (even if it is only 1 missing verse), then a huge dilemma would engulf the Muslim world; and many people would begin to challenge age-old claims for the integrity of the Qur'an.

What the typical Muslim would do when confronted with the evidence is to become irrational, and then shamelessly deny and circumvent the obvious facade, while deflecting away from the subject with calumny against other religions. We are not interested in such typically Islamic amentia; and we just want to see if there is any substance to the claim that there are no missing verses in the Qur'an.

A few things readers need to understand here:

(a) there are indeed MISSING verses in the Qur'an; 
(b) some of the verses of the Qur'an have been CANCELLED;
(c) some other verses of the Qur'an were NOT REVEALED by 'Allah'
(d) Muhammad interjected his own thoughts into the Qur'an.

In many of the Hadiths, there is a staggering amount of textual evidence for the case that there are missing and cancelled verses from the Qur'an. A few of these are given below. However, readers should note carefully that in some of the references given, cancelled verses are also missing verses, as they cannot be found in any verse or chapter of the Qur'an. Most of the hadith texts are too long to be posted here; so only the relevant sections that are germane to my responses will be posted, and marked with . Anyone interested in the full texts can see the hadiths in question for themselves.


#[size=14pt]1[/size]. The Missing Verses of the Qur'an

(a) The Verse of Stoning

There are many Hadiths that reveal that 'Allah' sent a verse about the stoning of those guily of fornication and adultery. Ask a Muslim where that verse is today in the Qur'an, and watch his denying excuses. There is no denying that this verse of stoning was claimed to have been sent down by 'Allah' to Muhammad.


Sahih Muslim, Book 017, Number 4194: ___ 'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession. (see also Sahih Muslim Book 017, #4191 & #4192:; and Book 008, #3437:).

There are other hadiths that confirm this as well:

Malik Muwatta, Book 41, Number 41.1.8: ___ Malik related to me from Ibn Shihab from Ubaydullah ibn Abdullah ibn Utba ibn Masud that Abdullah ibn Abbas said, "I heard Umar ibn al-Khattab say, 'Stoning is in the Book of Allah for those who commit adultery, men or women when they are muhsan and when there is clear proof of pregnancy or a confession.' "

Islamic sources indicate that Muhammad actually copped out the verse of stoning from the TORAH that Muslims today claim is LOST! (see Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, #4433:). The hadiths also reveal that Muhammad practised this very law of stoning those guilty of fornication and adultery:

Narrated Imran ibn Husayn: A woman belonging to the tribe of Juhaynah (according to the version of Aban) came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said that she had committed fornication and that she was pregnant. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) called her guardian. Then the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said to him: Be good to her, and when she bears a child, bring her (to me). When she gave birth to the child, he brought her (to him). The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) gave orders regarding her, and her clothes were tied to her. He then commanded regarding her and she was stoned to death. He commanded the people (to pray) and they prayed over her. (Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, #4426:)

The question now is: WHERE IS THE VERSE ON STONING IN THE QUR'AN??

Muslims who claim that the Qur'an is absolutely complete and nothing has been deleted or erased from it should please tell us where is the missing verse 'Allah' sent down on stoning sexual offenders guilty of fornication and adultery! There is absolutely no chapter or verse where it is to be found, for the simple reason that it was erased and not included among the other verses that have survived to the present.

Embarrased by this situation, some Muslim scholars try to interject it back into the Qur'an by adding so-called "commentaries" into their English translations. An example is the translation by Mohsin Khan on Qur'an 24:2:

The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with
a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed
by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers
witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above
crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death,
according to Allahs Law).

If you had asked Mohsin Khan what verse he meant by "stone them to death, according to Allah's Law", you would have a blank answer, because the verse on stoning is missing from the Qur'an; and the underlined words in that verse above are simply the translator's human interjection! The same verse is rendered by the other popular English translations as:

Qur'an 24.002
YUSUFALI: The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them
with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed
by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their
punishment.
PICKTHAL: The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred
stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah
and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.
SHAKIR: (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes,
and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and
the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.

As you can see, there is no mention of stoning in that verse; and the verse is no longer among the other verses of the Qur'an. This clearly demonstrates that there are missing verses not found in the Qur'an that Muslims read today; and most of their doctrines are found outside the Qur'an as well.

Missing Texts in Some English Translations of the Qur'an!!

My dear babs787 is worried about some versions of the Bible that have some verses (like the KJV) that some other versions do not have (like the RSV). This again is another issue I would like him and his folks to understand - that the Qur'an also suffers the same fate in versions that are circulated among Muslims.

I found this interesting website that spotted some missing texts from Rashad Khalifa's Qur'an. Since babs787 is in the habit of quoting spurious articles to discredit the Bible and Christians, I thought he would like to see what Muslims do with their own Qur'an.

I'll just post the comments on the page so readers can follow what is being stated their:

"Please examine the pages numbered 2 and 3 below. Allah Countervails and removes the entire Verse 2: 5 from the Arabic Text of Rashad's publication below. The hi-lited missing text is written with pencil by a friend of mine. Later on, on page 597 you will discover the Verse 95: 5 missing, in the English text."





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"On page 597 below, in the Final Publication of Rashad Khalifa, the entire translation
of the Verse 95: 5 in English is missing."



Source: http://www.mostmerciful.com/allah-countervails.htm


There are articles available on the net where on-going debates are raging between Muslims about the corruptions of the Qur'an. Some of these will be served later.

@ stimulus, thanks for stimulating me with this highly didactic and detailed exposition of the many lies and contradictions of our brother blabs787.
Now lets see him dribble his way out of this.

Now truth has come, falsehood is bound to disappear!

How can a book full of contradictions be from God. It is certainly, a combination of thoughts and make beliefs.

@davidylan,

Thanks, my guy. Since our friend has often been launching ceaseless vitriol and calumny against Christians and the Bible, I focused on other issues when he said that he was backing off from the debates. But since he "resumed" the same issues with more vexations, trailing me in almost all the other threads, I just wanted him to know this:

Even though it's not my style to deliberately seek to put down other religions (as he
has been doing), I want him to be aware that I'm not ignorant about issues in Islam.
That I wasn't and have never been a muslim, does not mean I don't know about it at
all - thanks to the Muslim background I had.

Cheers.




@nossycheek,

nossycheek:

How can a book full of contradictions be from God. It is certainly, a combination of thoughts and make beliefs.

To be honest, I may not be so condescending, lol. There are some issues that are not contradictory in the Qur'an - I know because I've read it back cover to back cover several times (although I still don't have a good grasp of the arabic in which it has been printed).

The issue rather is that, in the contradictions that do exist in the Qur'an (as surely there are many), I'm still amazed at the hypocrisy of Muslim apologists who often try to magnify the so-called contradictions in the Bible, without first taking care of their own quarters.

We have heard enough allegations against Christianity from Muslims, and they have often been repeated and recycled. No wahala. Now it is time for them to sit down and smell the coffee brewing in their own quarters and tell us how it tastes!!

The discussion on the missing and cancelled verses of the Qur'an will continue. But here's an update for babs787, firdaus@us and other Muslim apologists to think through and give me a good, well-reasoned apologetic (minus the skits of dancing away from the topic) thereto.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like for Muslims to please explicate for us what the following seeming contradictions are. I'm not a muslim, never was one; but whenever I tried asking the few Muslim members of our family and some friends about them, I'm often given answers that haven't made any sense. So here, perhaps Muslims can help:

#1. Which is the greater/greatest sin in Islam - to join partners with 'Allah' (shirk), or to forget any verse of the Qur'an?

Sunan Abu-Dawud, Bk 2, #0461: || 'Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The rewards of my people were presented before me, so much so that even the reward for removing a mote by a person from the mosque was presented to me. The sins of my people were also presented before me. I did not find a sin greater than that of a person forgetting the Qur'anic chapter or verse memorised by him.

Qur'an 4:48: || "Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin."

Comparing these two texts above, does it not convey the understanding that forgetting any verse or chapter of the Qur'an is a greater sin than joining partners with "Allah" (shirk)??

---------------------------------------


#2. Did Muhammad commit the greater sin between the two great sins?
(I remember getting a hot slap from my Muslim elder brother for this!!)

Malik's Muwatta Bk. 4, #4.1.2: || Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "I forget or I am made to forget so that I may establish the sunna."

---------------------------------------


#3. What is the punishment for anyone who ever forgot any chapter or verse of the Qur'an?

Sunan Abu-DawudBk. 8, #1469: || Narrated Sa'd ibn Ubadah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: No man recites the Qur'an, then forgets it, but will meet Allah on the Day of Judgment in a maimed condition (or empty-handed, or with no excuse).

When he said above: "No man", does that include Muhammad himself, (as it is clear that he, too, forgot some verses of the Qur'an)??

---------------------------------------

#4. Now, who actually makes Muhammad or Muslims to forget the Qur'an??

Sahih Bukhari Book 61, # 550: || Narrated Abdullah: The Prophet said, "It is a bad thing that some of you say, 'I have forgotten such-and-such verse of the Qur'an,' for indeed, he has been caused (by Allah) to forget it. So you must keep on reciting the Qur'an because it escapes from the hearts of men faster than camel do."

Sahih Bukhari Book 61, # 559: || Narrated Abdullah: The Prophet said, "Why does anyone of the people say, 'I have forgotten such-and-such Verses (of the Qur'an)?' He, in fact, is caused (by Allah) to forget."

Now, like I said, I do not have anything against Muslims; and for a while, I cooled off to focus on other issues. But then for people like babs787 who think it sport to calumnize Christianity, I would first like them to tidy their own house before making any attempt to point fingers at Christians, Christ and the Bible.

Shalom.

Is Babs Avoiding this thread?

lafile:

Is Babs Avoiding this thread?

Nope, he didn't expect to wake up to it! he's gathering his uranium nukes for a strike back - he should just pray it does not come back and land on his roof!!

@stimulus


You sent three posts which will be answered one after the other. Truth has come falsehood is bound to perish. Be prepared to read my detailed response to your lies especially on the missing verse and that of Khalifites.



@babs787 (and all Muslims),
Right. Here are my responses to the challenges you offered in several threads. First, let me reiterate I have nothing against Muslims (not having being one before); and my posts are offered from the perspective of my being a Christian rather than a Muslim.


You decided to change gear huh? Don’t worry, nobody says you have anything against them. You should have posted them one after the other and ask you question in the same way. But never mind, I will attend to everything God’s willing.



A. Is The Qur'an A Complete Book?

As regards the issue of the inconsistencies and incompleteness of the Qur'an that you've been pretending do not exist, here they are.

You brought up the fallacious argument that the Bible is an incomplete Book because it mentions a few other books which cannot be found in it; such as the book of Jasher, the book of Nathan the prophet, the book of Jehu, and the Acts of Uzziah. Despite an initial explanation that those books were not regarded as part of the inspired canon of Scripture, you dogmatically kept on shlepping the same weathered argument in several other threads. Let's not forget that in the initial thread, you boldly asserted that the TORAH was LOST or corrupted.


Brother it is not a fallacious argument. Check it out yourself from the papyril. Stop lying brother, it is glaring that bibles were written according to the church. I didn’t say the bible is imcomplete as result of the missing books alone but as well as some missing verses. Brother, you cant deceive us here, no explanation was provided. I didn’t say the bible is imcomplete based on missing books alone, but also on missing verses, chapters. Check them out in this thread, ‘is bible comple’.



If there's any substance in that kind of reasoning, then it only means that your xenophobia applies heavily in just the same manner to the Qur'an. One could argue by the very same rule, that the Qur'an is NOT a complete book because most of the books it mentions are NOT found in the holy book of 'Allah' that Muhammad gave Muslims. In just the same way you applied the rule of the so-called "missing books" to the Bible, we shall be applying the same rule to see how many "missing books" can be deduced from the Qur'an.

You didn’t apply the rules of the missing verses in some bible eg RSV, Good News bible etc



The Missing Books of the Qur'an

The following are the BOOKS the Qur'an claims Muhammad's 'Allah' sent down; and we want to know WHERE they are, and WHAT HAPPENED to them:


Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)"



#1. Where are the BOOKS of Moses? || Sura 53:36
'Nay, is he not acquainted with what is in the Books of Moses'

Brother, hope your BP is normal because I can sense that my posts annoyed you. Don’t worry, calm down, it is well. Now like I keep telling you, the Quran is not written like the bible where you have books written by different authors abi na prophet sef. The Quran contains Gospel, Injil and Psalm. You will read the stories of Moses, Abraham and David in the Quran, this goes to tell you that, their books are included in the Quran . if I say their books, I mean their stories as written in the bible and we have them in the Quran. It tells you that the Quran contains the Gospel, Injil and Psalm.



#2. Where is the Book of Abraham? || Sura 87:18-19
'And this is in the Books of the earliest (Revelation),- The Books of Abraham and Moses.'


You have shown another level of ignorance here. You are expecting it to be arranged in the Quran in this order: book of Abraham followed by book of Moses etc, nay brother. The books contain stories about the prophets during their time and we have everything you need to know about Abraham and Moses in the Quran.

Quran 3 v 65: O people of the scripture! Why do you dispute about Abraham while the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have you then no sense? So the Quran contains everything you need to know about them and by saying that it has included their books because the Torah contains story of Jesus and we have his story in the Quran. the Injil contains that of Moses and we have his story in the Quran too. So that answers your question.



#3. Where are the honoured books? || Sura 80:12-16
'So let him who pleases mind it. In honored books, Exalted, purified,
In the hands of scribes, Noble, virtuous.


like I told your sister nossycheeks, your authors have been putting you in troubles. Must they lie to you in preaching false doctrines. If you had read the Quran before posting, you would have seen that the above verses are talking about the Quran and I will give them to you for your understanding. Please tell your authors to stop deceiving you

Quran 80 v 11: nay (do not do like this); indeed it (this Quran) is an admonition.

V12: so whoever wills, let him pay attention to it.

V 13: it is in records held greatly in honour

V 14: exalted in dignity, purified

V 15: in the hands of scribes (angels)

V 16: honourable and obedient

Hope you have seen that?



#4. What 'books' are being referred to; and WHERE are they? || Sura 66:12
'And Marium, the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity,
so We breathed into her of Our inspiration and she accepted
the truth of the words of her Lord and His books, and she was of,
the obedient ones.'[/color]


Must you lie brother? Truth stands from falsehood. This is the verse

Quran 66 v 12: And Mary, the daughter of Imran who guarded her chastity. And we breathed into her through our angel (Jibril) and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord (i.e believed in the words of Allah; be – and he was; that is Jesus, son of Mary as a Messenger of Allah) and also believed in His scriptures and she was of the pious.

The books referred to are the scriptures i.e the Injil and the Gospel given to Moses and Jesus respectively. Na wa for your websites or authors.



#5. Where are the 'Sacred Books' and Books of Deeds? || Sura 54:43 & 52
'Are your Unbelievers, (O Quraish), better than they? Or have ye
an immunity in the Sacred Books? - All that they do is noted in (their)
Books (of Deeds)'


Brother, calm down. The above verses quoted talk about the Quraish people when they disbelieved in the revelations of Allah. Let me post them here for you to read

Quran 54v 40: and indeed we have made the Quran easy to understand and remember, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)?

V 41: And indeed, warnings came to the people of pharaoh through Moses and Aaron.

V 42: they belied all our signs so we seized them with a seizure of the All-Mighty, All-Capable.

V 43: Are your disbelievers (O QURAISH), better than these [nations of Noah, Lot, Salih and the people of Pharoah who were destroyed?] or have you an immunity (against our torment) in the divine scriptures?

Hope you understood, it is self explanatory?

Quran 54 v 52: And everything they have done is noted in their records of deeds.

Everybody is having his/her records of actions/deeds with God which will be opened to him/her on that day. So you can see that your authors are liars.



#6. Where are the mystic Books, babs787? || Sura 26:196
'Without doubt it is (announced) in the mystic Books of former peoples.'


I pity your deluded authors that lied in order to deceive you. This is what we have brother.

Quran 26 v 196: And verily, it (the Quran and its revelation to prophet Muhammed (saw) is announced in the scriptures (i.e torah and the Gospel) of former people.

Hope you understood? Former people are the people given the scriptures to. I.e people of Moses with the Torah and that of Jesus with the Gospel.



#7. Where are the "previous books"? || Sura 20:133
'And they say: Why does he not bring to us a sign from his Lord? Has not
there come to them a clear evidence of what is in the previous books?'


Quran 20 v 133: They say, ‘why does he not bring us a sign (proof) from his Lord’? has there not come to them the proof of that which is written in the former papers (scriptures) i.e the Torah and the Gospel about the coming of the prophet Muhammed (saw)?

Understood?



#8. What is the Book; and where is it today?? || Sura 3:48
'And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel'


Quran 3 v 48: and Allah will teach him (jesus) the Book (i.e Sunnah, the faultless speech of the prophets, wisdoms) and the Torah and the Gospel.

Understood?



#9. Where is the Mother of the book, babs787? || Sura 13:39
'Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.'


Quran 13 v 39: Allah blots out what He wills, and confirms n what He wills. And with Him is the Mother of the Book (Al-Lauh Al-Mahfiz).

Mother of the book used here is the Quran which is the last revelation.




#10. Where are "His Books", and why are they NOT in the Qur'an?
Sura 4:136 - 'O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.'
(see also Sura 2:285)


Brother I have answered up. His books are the Torah, injil, and the Quran. The stories of the prophets in the Quran tells that their books have been included. The Torah contains story of Moses and Israel and you have it in the Quran too. So hope you are ok with that?




#11. 'The Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation - WHERE are they?? || Sura 5:68
'Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy.But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.'


Same as above. Maybe you are expecting separate chapters for them in the Quran just like the bible.



Now a few questions:

In regards to Q. 4:136 (see #10 above), why was Muhammad's 'Allah' asking people to believe in HIS BOOKS if it is true that those books are already LOST? If nobody knows their whereabouts because they are lost, what do Muslims today claim about Sura 4:136 - is it one of the abrogated verses as well? And if that verse was referring to the Bible, why is 'Allah' asking people to believe in the same Books of the Bible that Muslims today attack with unbridled calumny?


Brother, you are just going in circles. Hiding the truth which you yourself has seen. I have provided detailed evidence to the incompleteness of the bible.

As for the Torah,

The original Message of the Torah (Old Testament) was still around during Muhammad's (peace be upon him) time. But because the Jews had so much controversies, disputes and age-old prejudices among themselves, they ended up losing the entire original message. Please keep in mind that the Jews were divided into several tribes before Islam, and those tribes had so much problems. They never had One True Judaism as many Christians mistakenly believe. That is why the Jews massacred each others before and brought themselves from 11 tribes to only 2 (Judea and Samara located in what we call today West Bank Palestine) due to all of the blood shed that took place between them. A total of 9 tribes were completely wiped out. That is why "differences arose therein, " Allah Almighty promised hell to those Jews who caused the corruption of the Original Torah; "Know they not Allah Knoweth what they [the Jews] conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them [the Jews] illiterates, who know not the Book [the Old Testament], but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book [Old Testament] with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (The Noble Quran, 2:77-79)"

As for the Gospel

As for the Christians and their Injil (New Testament), we Muslims believe that the Christians unintentionally had corrupted the Bible because they waited for too long to document it. Some Christians believe that the Bible was documented 150 years after Jesus. Others believe it took 300 years. In either case, the gap is too big and no Christian can guarantee accuracy. That is why you read in their current books and Gospels things such as "And Jesus said to Matthew, " instead of "And Jesus said to me [Matthew], " and so on. Cases similar to this example literally exist in most of the New Testament of today, where they prove that the New Testament was not even written by its original authors. It was written by third party people, and their words are considered today the Word of GOD, which is wrong and sinful. The Christian sects also believe in different number of Gospels when you compare them to each others. The number of Books/Gospels in the Roman Catholics Bible for instance is different from the King James Version Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Mormon's Bible, etc

Quran 5:13: "But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)."

Quran 5:41 "O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment."



Where are "the Law, the Gospel, and ALL the revelation" (Q. 5:68 ) that the Qur'an wants us to stand fast by; and which Muslims now claim have been LOST? Are "ALL the Revelations" of 'Allah' LOST as well? Why was Muhammad's 'Allah' not able to keep or preserve what he claimed came from him; and yet now asks "People of the Book" to believe in what Muslims claim are LOST, according to you, babs787?? Why was 'Allah' asking people to believe in ALL the revelations that are LOST if he already knew that they were non-existent in Muhammad's day??

Same as above.



Further, if Muslims are honest at all, since they claim that the TORAH and INJIL are LOST, why do they desperately sweat to "prove" that Muhammad is in the TORAH and INJIL of the Bible that they attack? Muslim apologists often try to "prove" that Muhammad was prophesied in Deuteronomy 18 and John 14 & 16. Why the dishonest claim that they are 'lost', and then come back quoting those same books of the Bible?


Are you are not honest with yourself? It has been read that your bible is corrupt and some chapters are missing. Bibles were written according to church. Read up for explanation.

Quran 7:157 : "Those who follow the Messenger [Muhammad], the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the Law and the Gospel for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good and prohibits them from what is bad; He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honor him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him- it is they who will prosper."



Since the above books (plural - BOOKS) are NOT found in the Qur'an itself, it only establishes the fact that the Qur'an is an INCOMPLETE book in just the same way Muslims allege against the Bible. Only a dishonest and deliberately deceitful person will apply a certain rule for castigating others, but cries foul when the same rule is applied to his own camp. It is this die-hard tendency of calculated deceit and double-speak that got me thinking and served as one of the many issues that made me refuse to be a Muslim even though I was raised in a large Muslim family.


Brother stop deceiving yourself. I have answered you, they are there and part of the Quran as well.

Quran 87 v 13: verily, this Quran is the Word that separates the truth from falsehood and commands strict laws for mankind to cut the roots of evil.






Others will follow, stay glued.

Truth has come, falsehood is bound to perish.

@stimulus


Answering Allegations Against The Bible

As we have seen, the typical argument offered by vexed Muslim propagandists accusing the Bible to be an incomplete Book, is the references to certain books which are not included in the canon of Scripture. These include the book of Jasher (2 Sam. 1:18 ), the book of Jehu (2 Chron. 20:34), and the books of Nathan the prophet and Gad the seer (1Chron. 29:29) among a few others.


Brother stop deceiving yourself. It’s not as a result of missing books alone, but missing chapters as well as verses. I have provided your sister detailed response, so stop behaving like a kid.



My Christian response is that these books are mentioned only as references and not as Scripture. It was common in early Jewish history to find prophets, seers and others recording events of national interest to Israel. Some of these writers are simply called "recorders", and their writings were not viewed as divine Scripture:

1Kings 4:3 - "Elihoreph and Ahiah, the sons of Shisha, scribes; Jehoshaphat the son of Ahilud, the recorder."
1Chron. 18:15 - "And Joab the son of Zeruiah was over the host; and Jehoshaphat the son of Ahilud, recorder."
Isaiah 8:2 - "And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah."


Brother, what of the missing verses in some versions but present in others? What of some chapters in others but missing in others. You are just trying to defend falsehood. I have provided you detailed response. Go there and debunk.



However, such documents were never viewed in Israel's history as inspired Scripture; nor have they been quoted by the OT saints as interpretation for doctrinal issues for the religious life of Israel.

Where did you get your story from? Please check these links

for the new testament canons through the ages
http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/EXHIBITAv2.htm


for the complete list of new testament papyril

http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/ExhibitE.htm



Even more remarkable is that the core issues mentioned in reference to those books of the seers are still found in the Bible! The narratives are not lost!! For instance, mention is made of the book of Jehu recording the acts of Jehoshaphat, first and last (2 Chron. 20:34). Does the Bible not record the life and ministry of the same Jehoshaphat in the OT? Read 1 Kings chapters 15 to 22; II Kings chapters 1 to 3; II Chronicles chapter 17 to 20; and see for yourself!

Despite the answers offered, it is the typical Muslim propaganda to glom onto issues like this in their allegations against the Bible as being an incomplete book. The Bible is indeed a complete book. Since some Muslims are typically strangers to truth and reason, I've applied the very same rule to their holy book just to find out how many books are missing from the Qur'an.


Check this link and debunk everything.
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.32.html

Please go to this link to read more about the whole Bible and analysis of the Canonical and Apocryphal New Testament

Scriptureshttp://www.maplenet.net/~trowbridge/contents.htm

Also read about the New Testament canons through the ages
http://www.maplenet.net/~trowbridge/canons.htm



Let the Muslim answer the question: Where are those books the Qur'an mentions but are NOT found in 'Allah's' book at all??

I have answered you up. Go back and read.


Versions and Revisions of the Qur'an

Another Muslim complaint against the Bible is that there are so many translations and revisions that have been necessitated by the defects of previous editions of those translations.

Okay oooooo. That’s me man.


Quote from: babs787 on April 23, 2007, 10:48 AM
Your bible confirmed that it has grave defects. Read the preface of the RSV 1971 and I quote:

‘ The king James Version has with good reason been termed ‘the noblest monument of English prose’. Its revisers in 1881 expressd admiratin for ‘its simplicity, its dignity, its power, its happy turns of expression… the music of its cadences, and the felicities of its rhythm…. We owe it an incalculable debt.

Yet the King James Version has grave defects. By the middle of the nineteenth century, the development of biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version was based, made it manifest that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision of the English translation.’

Is it not rather comical that you're belly-dancing around the RSV and conveniently playing hide-and-seek with the revisions of the Qur'an? Okay, your problem is with the KJV being revised. I wonder what 'grave defects' led the translators of the Qur'an to undertake revisionist work on the Qur'an. Three English translations of the Qur'an among others by muslims that have undergone several revisions include:


Brother common be a man and stop this childish behaviour of yours. I have not laid emphasis on only RSV but from other areas too. Rad yourself pls and debunk.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.32.html




#1. [bTranslation of the Glorious Holy Qur'an with Commentary[/b] - by Ali Ahmad Khan (Lahore, 1962); styled by the author as 'a True and Easy translation of the Glorious Qur'an', nonetheless has passed through 3 Editions after having been adjudged to be with numerous mistakes in its translations.

Can I have the missing verses and chapters in them?



#2. The Meaning of the Glorious Qur'an - by Pickthall, Muhammad Marmaduke William (London, 1930); reputed to be one of the most widely used translations among Muslims, yet has undergone at least 27 Editions! One has to wonder why there are so many revisions that led to subsequent editions. Besides the fact that the Mentor publication (451 MJ1529 195) contains a few errors/omissions, many Muslim readers of this translation hold that it is not entirely free from serious mishaps, as Pickthal in some instances sacrifices the meaning of several verses at the expense of the euphemistic expression intended; while doing the opposite in other instances. Even though his translation is titled 'The Meaning of the Glorious Qur'an', Pickthall notes in the foreward of his 1930 edition that the Qur'an CANNOT be translated; and that the result of his translation is NOT the glorious Qur'an!


so? Can I still have the missing verses, chapters etc?



#3. The Holy Qur'an: Translation and Commentary - by Ali Abdullah Yusuf (Lahore, 1934-37); another extremely popular translation favoured by most Muslims, has undergone no less than 35 Editions! Many Muslims are nonetheless suspicious of this translation, holding that it is not entirely free from errors; and flaw it on the basis of his sufistic bias and UNOTHODOX views in his notes to the Qur'an (see Kidwai, A.R., 'Abdullah Yusuf Ali's Views on the Qur'anic Eschatology', Muslim World League Journal 12 (5) February 1985, pp. 14-17).


Please can you supply me the missing verses or chapters from all the editions?



There are many other English translations of the Qur'an, and I have not come across ONE that any honest Muslim scholar approves as entirely free from error in translation - not even ONE. As a matter of fact, if Pickthall was right that the Qur'an cannot be translated, it follows that any translation into any language is bound to have errors, no matter how scholarly are the translator(s). My persuasion is confirmed by the following statement:


Brother, let me help you and stop wasting your energy over what you know nothing about. The Eglish Quran is not like the Arabic Quran that was in its pure state. If you are laying claim to error, let me have the errors please or missing verses or chapters.


"Please keep in mind that ANY translation of the Qur'an will most definitely contain errors."

This is found in this website of Islamic resources:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/qmtintro.html


Is that your own understanding? One of your friends 4 get me provided the link sometime and I had it debunked and you still went there.

Read for yourself for better understanding
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/corrections.html



Quote from: babs787 on April 23, 2007, 10:48 AM
The Quran is the last book revealed to the seal of the prophets because the original message of both Torah and Gospel cannot be found.

There's something really laughable about this kind of reasoning. You claim that the Qur'an is the last book revealed to the seal of the prophets, and you were unable to disclose the "previous" books of 'Allah' before he brought out his "last" book! Where are the Psalms, the Injil and the Torah that Muhammad claimed were sent down by 'Allah'?? Where are they?


Abegi, stop going round in circles. Scroll up and re-read my explanation.



Now, if "the original message of both the Torah and Gospel cannot be found" (same as your claim that they are 'LOST'), then WHY HAVE YOU BEEN DESPERATELY SEEKING TO "PROVE" THAT MUHAMMAD IS FOUND IN THE TORAH (DEUTERONOMY 18) AND THE GOSPEL (JOHN 14 & 16) OF THE BIBLE??

Is the message not corrupt? Why defending falsehood? Read yourself

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.32.html



Why this display of deliberate dishonesty and double-speak on your part? Since the "Torah" and "Gospel" of the Qur'an cannot be found, then what is Muhammad doing in the OT Torah and the NT Gospels of the Bible?? If there's any substance to your claims, then your position only proves indeed that MUHAMMAD IS NOT THE PROPHET OF DEUTERONOMY 18:15 & 18!! And I've debated that in another thread, which you have not gone back to counter my claims. It is for this reason that I stayed off the roundabout argument until now that you simply continue your propagandist adventure.


Read here again

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.32.html

Also

About the Torah

The original Message of the Torah (Old Testament) was still around during Muhammad's (peace be upon him) time. But because the Jews had so much controversies, disputes and age-old prejudices among themselves, they ended up losing the entire original message. Please keep in mind that the Jews were divided into several tribes before Islam, and those tribes had so much problems. They never had One True Judaism as many Christians mistakenly believe. That is why the Jews massacred each others before and brought themselves from 11 tribes to only 2 (Judea and Samara located in what we call today West Bank Palestine) due to all of the blood shed that took place between them. A total of 9 tribes were completely wiped out. That is why "differences arose therein, " Allah Almighty promised hell to those Jews who caused the corruption of the Original Torah; "Know they not Allah Knoweth what they [the Jews] conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them [the Jews] illiterates, who know not the Book [the Old Testament], but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book [Old Testament] with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (The Noble Quran, 2:77-79)"

Gospel

As for the Christians and their Injil (New Testament), we Muslims believe that the Christians unintentionally had corrupted the Bible because they waited for too long to document it. Some Christians believe that the Bible was documented 150 years after Jesus. Others believe it took 300 years. In either case, the gap is too big and no Christian can guarantee accuracy. That is why you read in their current books and Gospels things such as "And Jesus said to Matthew, " instead of "And Jesus said to me [Matthew], " and so on. Cases similar to this example literally exist in most of the New Testament of today, where they prove that the New Testament was not even written by its original authors. It was written by third party people, and their words are considered today the Word of GOD, which is wrong and sinful. The Christian sects also believe in different number of Gospels when you compare them to each others. The number of Books/Gospels in the Roman Catholics Bible for instance is different from the King James Version Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Mormon's Bible, etc, Please visit History of man's corruption in the Bible for more details. Today, there is no one Bible!.




Any attempt to come back and quote the OT or NT will prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that you're towing the line of hypocrites and dishonest Muslim apologists who feed you with such self-contradictory arguments!!


Abegi. Go to the below link, you cant deceive me.
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.32.html



You can confirm my assertion by coming back to quote any verse of the Bible for Muhammad (since you cannot find him in your LOST Torah and Injil); and in doing so, we shall see how much of a stranger you are to truth and reason!!


Read up if your falsehood has blinded you in realizing the truth.


More coming.

B. The Missing And Cancelled Verses of the Qur'an

The second set of accusations Muslims often hold against Christianity is that there are so-called missing verses in the Bible. Notwithstanding the explanations variously offered for this misconception, Muslims often reject them wholesale while at the same time bragging that there are NO missing verses in the Qur'an. Really??


Okay lets see.


Quote from: babs787 on April 23, 2007, 10:48 AM
Without even going into the Quran, it has been established the the bible is incomplete. I have been telling you that if you think that the Quran is incomplete as some apologists have been claiming, bring out a verse as I have done.

The reason for this Muslim jactitation is that they have the false security of thinking non-Muslims would never discover the truth behind their braggart claims for the Qur'an. There is such a deep sense of apprehension among Muslims that if the truth is discovered that there are indeed missing verses in the Qur'an (even if it is only 1 missing verse), then a huge dilemma would engulf the Muslim world; and many people would begin to challenge age-old claims for the integrity of the Qur'an.


Go straight to the point and stop telling stories.



What the typical Muslim would do when confronted with the evidence is to become irrational, and then shamelessly deny and circumvent the obvious facade, while deflecting away from the subject with calumny against other religions. We are not interested in such typically Islamic amentia; and we just want to see if there is any substance to the claim that there are no missing verses in the Qur'an.


Your websites tried for you.




A few things readers need to understand here:

(a) there are indeed MISSING verses in the Qur'an;

We shall see as we proceed.



(b) some of the verses of the Qur'an have been CANCELLED;

Abrogated just as in the case of the bible.



(c) some other verses of the Qur'an were NOT REVEALED by 'Allah'

Okay we shall see.



(d) Muhammad interjected his own thoughts into the Qur'an.
Okay ooooooooooo.



In many of the Hadiths, there is a staggering amount of textual evidence for the case that there are missing and cancelled verses from the Qur'an. A few of these are given below. However, readers should note carefully that in some of the references given, cancelled verses are also missing verses, as they cannot be found in any verse or chapter of the Qur'an. Most of the hadith texts are too long to be posted here; so only the relevant sections that are germane to my responses will be posted, and marked with . Anyone interested in the full texts can see the hadiths in question for themselves.


Brother, I thought you know English very well. So cancel means missing to you? If the abrogated verses are missing, will they still be in the Quran. just like jesus said he didn’t come to anul any old laws but went ahead to anul. Do we say the abrogated verses are missing in the bible. You are really a professor of English Language.


Post on the verse on stoning and missing verses in the Quran coming shortly.

@stimulus


Hope you have been reading them . You are exposing your falsehood further. You can see now that babs answered your questions more than you ever expected, so you should stop avoiding my questions, answer my questions in other threads to show christianity is not a false religion.

It seems my exposing your falsehood pained you to your marrow hence the creation of many threads by your friends, but never mind, babs will respond but will soon expose more of your falsehood.

TRUTH HAS COME FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO PERISH.

babs787:

@stimulus


Hope you have been reading them . You are exposing your falsehood further. You can see now that babs answered your questions more than you ever expected, so you should stop avoiding my questions, answer my questions in other threads to show christianity is not a false religion.

It seems my exposing your falsehood pained you to your marrow hence the creation of many threads by your friends, but never mind, babs will respond but will soon expose more of your falsehood.

TRUTH HAS COME FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO PERISH.

hmmmm. Dis you answer or dodged the questions? Come out clearly and stop dancing like a man stung by a bee in the hot sun

@noisycheeks

hmmmm. Dis you answer or dodged the questions? Come out clearly and stop dancing like a man stung by a bee in the hot sun


It is very glaring who the real liar is.




[color=#990000[b]]#1. The Missing Verses of the Qur'an

(a) The Verse of Stoning[/b]

There are many Hadiths that reveal that 'Allah' sent a verse about the stoning of those guily of fornication and adultery. Ask a Muslim where that verse is today in the Qur'an, and watch his denying excuses. There is no denying that this verse of stoning was claimed to have been sent down by 'Allah' to Muhammad.[/color]


Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: "The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and told him that a man and a woman from amongst them had committed illegal sexual intercourse. Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the Torah (old Testament) about the legal punishment of Ar-Rajm (stoning)?" They replied, (But) we announce their crime and lash them." Abdullah bin Salam said, "You are telling a lie; Torah contains the order of Rajm." They brought and opened the Torah and one of them solaced his hand on the Verse of Rajm and read the verses preceding and following it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift your hand." When he lifted his hand, the Verse of Rajm was written there. They said, "Muhammad has told the truth; the Torah has the Verse of Rajm. The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones."  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (pbuh) and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 829)"


Ibn Kathir quotes many of the traditions about the stoning “verse” and seems to accept the idea of such a verse but does not raise any of the relevant and important questions, much less give some sensible answers to them. Some scholars have come up with the concept of two types of abrogated verses  mansukh al-tilawah (abrogated in respect to recitation) and mansukh al-‘amal (abrogated in respect to practice). It is said that the verse about stoning was mansukh al-tilawah and not mansukh al-‘amal. But coining such new technical terms does nothing to reduce the extreme weakness of the idea of a verse that was in pracitce but was omitted from the Qur`an.


It seems that some supporters of stoning are aware of the difficulties pointed out above and so they choose to ignore the “stoning verse”. Thus in his justification of the stoning penalty Shafi‘i does not at all refer to any tradition about the “stoning verse”. Mawdudi quotes some narrations of hadith attributed to ‘Umar but does not in any way use them to justify his support of al-rajm. For him they are simply an addition to the ahadith about al-rajm and serve to embelish the evidence for it. Moreover, many narrations of ‘Umar’s hadith state that pregnancy can by itself provide proof of zina` but a majority of the supporters of al-rajm, including Shafi‘i and Mawdudi, reject that view.


One may ask: if the idea of a verse about stoning, omitted from the Qur`an and banned from recitation in the daily prayers but still practiced is as absurd as we have suggested, then how could it find its way in our best Hadith collections and be accepted widely? This question ignores the fact that given right circumstances completely wrong ideas can develop and get accepted by a vast majority of people, including some very learned persons. Take for example the Christian belief in the Trinity. This belief has no basis in the teaching of Jesus, his eyewitness disciples, the gospels, other books of the Bible, or rational thought. Yet at one point it became a dominant idea in Christendom and is still professed by a majority of the church-going Christians, including some very learned ones.


In view of the weaknesses of the idea of a missing verse on stoning pointed out above, we need an extremely solid proof that this idea indeed was expressed by a man of such caliber as ‘Umar al-Faruq.


A reader who wants to discover the true Sunnah of our beloved Prophet for himself/herself must go through such examination of ahadith. It is like if you want to understand for yourself phenomena of nature, you much be prepared to follow science with some of its complex experiments, equations and theories.  


It is also very strange that ‘Umar remains the only Companion to talk about the stoning verse in a vast majority of books. This fact strongly suggests that for quite sometime the stoning verse and ‘Umar were uniquely tied to each other. Indeed, in one of the traditions it is assumed that ‘Umar was the only one who knew about the stoning verse:


[It is reported by] Ibn Abi Shaybah, concerning al-masahif, from al-Layth bin Sa‘d who said: The first to collect the Qur`an was Abu Bakr and Zayd bin Thabit wrote it. And people came to Zayd bin Thabit (with the portions of the Qur`an) but Zayd did not write anything (in the Qur`an) except with the testimony of two reliable witnesses. The last part of Surah Bara`ah was not found except with Khuzaymah bin Thabit. He said, “Write it, for the Messenger of God had declared the testimony of Khuzaymah equivalent to that of two men.” So he wrote it. And[b] ‘Umar came with the verse of stoning but Zayd would not write it because ‘Umar was alone (in his testimony)[/b] (Al-Suyuti as quoted in ‘Awn al-Ma‘bud 3130)


According to this story, in the time of Abu Bakr when the Qur`an was reportedly collected no one knew about the stoning verse or no one remembered it except ‘Umar. This story is absent from all of the nine collections of Hadith covered in the Hadith Encyclopedia and does not even have complete isnad. Furthermore, as we shall see later it is in conflict with several other stories. There is therefore no likelihood that it is telling us an historical incident. Yet even fictions have some history in them. In this story, the history is that even in the time of Layth bin Sa‘d (d. 175) it was assumed by some narrators of ahadith that traditions about the stoning verse all went back only to ‘Umar: no other Companion talked about the verse. This is a powerful argument against the very idea of a stoning verse, since such a verse or, at least its existence, is expected to be known to a large number of senior Companions.



Examination of the asanid of ‘Umar’s hadith suggests the approximate time when the hadith was fabricated: As noted above the asanid show that the hadith can be take back with some probability only to the time of ‘Ubayd Allah and Ibn al-Musayyab. Now both of these Successors died in or after 93 and those who transmitted from them -- al-Zuhri, Yahya bin Sa‘id etc -- died in or after 124. ‘Ubayd Allah and Ibn al-Musayyab therefore could not have transmitted the hadith to the third-generation narrators too much earlier than 75. If we allow a couple of decades for the hadith to gain wide enough circulation for ‘Ubayd Allah and Ibn al-Musayyab to start quoting it, then we can date it somewhere between 50-80.
Examination of the contents of the narrations of ‘Umar’s hadith leads to a very significant result which may be stated at that outset: not all narrations of ‘Umar’s hadith talk about a missing Qur`anic verse about stoning. In fact, narrations that do not refer to such a verse have much more varied asanid than those that refer to it. This result is significant because it strongly suggests that ‘Umar’s hadith originally did not talk about the stoning verse. Once again it is possible to approximately date when the reference to a stoning verse was introduced in ‘Umar’s hadith: The earliest narrator who can be said with confidence to have included this reference in his narration of ‘Umar’s hadith is al-Zuhri who died in 124 or 125. Allowing a few decades for the reference to gain some circulation, we can date it between 95 and 115.


There are many weaknesses in the narration.

First, notice the statement that Ibn ‘Abbas [d. 68] was teaching ‘Abd al-Rahman bin ‘Awf to read the Qur`an. This is hard to believe since ‘Abd al-Rahman [d. about 32] was a senior Companion who was among the six persons ‘Umar nominated as a possible choice for khalifah after him. This part of the narration is also called into question by the fact, noted earlier, that in some narrations Ibn ‘Abbas actually learns this tradition from ‘Abd al-Rahman bin ‘‘Awf

Second, the alleged verse that desiring ancestors other than one’s own is kufr is found in Muslim as a hadith (1/161) without any indication of a missing verse to that effect. The reference to this missing verse about ancestors, moreover, is not found in most other narrations and so it is probably a later addition. But then if additions could be made to a tradition in this way, the reliability of the transmission process is compromised. In particular, it is possible that the reference to stoning was also added later to the khutbah of ‘Umar, a possibility that increases in likelihood when we notice that this reference comes up abruptly in the khutbah.


Third, the statement that “part of what God sent down was the verse of  al-rajm” is almost exclusively found in the narrations of al-Zuhri. The reference to the stoning verse is absent in almost all the other narrations, at least in this unambiguous form. This suggests that al-Zuhri heard the idea of the stoning verse from some unknown source and made it a part of ‘Umar’s hadith.


Fourth, the argument that al-rajm is not Islamic because it is not mentioned in the Book of God is first attributed to the Khawarij who came after ‘Umar in the time of ‘Ali. While I do not deny that a strong believer like ‘Umar could sometimes foresee the future, yet there is also a very real possibility that in the tradition under consideration later developments are being projected back in the time of ‘Umar. That is, some decades after ‘Umar someone is responding to the arguments of the Khawarij by putting his own words in ‘Umar’s mouth.
Fifth, in this narration ‘Umar, long after the death of the Prophet says that “the Prophet stoned”. Yet Ibn Ishaq mentions none of the many stories of stoning of Muslims [7] by the Prophet as part of the biography of the Prophet that he is writing. The story of a Companion of the Prophet such as the man of Aslam (Ma‘iz) or the woman of Ghamid committing zina` and then being stoned to death would have left a mark on the people of Madinah. People recalling the events that took place during Prophet’s life and those collecting those events afterwards are expected to remember and narrate or at least allude to some of these stories. But Ibn Ishaq does not do so.


Sixth, there are numerous traditions about the collection of the Qur`an and the efforts made in the time of the first three khulafa` to preserve the Qur`anic text. During the process of such “collection” we expect some questions to be raised about the stoning “verse”, e.g., why it is not in the Qur`an and whether it should be restored to it. But in earlier accounts of the collection of the Qur`an such questions are never raised. Only in very late and isolated traditions, suffering from many weaknesses and not considered reliable by a vast majority of muhaddithun, are such questions encountered and very inadequately answered.


Malik’s narration


Malik related to me from Ibn Shihab from ‘Ubayd Allah ibn ‘Abd Allah ibn ‘Utbah ibn Mas‘ud that ‘Abd Allah ibn ‘Abbas said: I heard ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab say:

“al-rajm in the Book of God is justly laid on any married men and women who commit zina` if there is direct evidence (of witnesses) or pregnancy (al-habal) or confession" (Muwatta 41/.
This narration is at least as reliable as that of Ibn Ishaq. For, although Ibn Ishaq [d. 151] wrote his book before Malik [d. 179] wrote his, this particular hadith is received by Malik directly from al-Zuhri [d. 125] while, as noted earlier, Ibn Ishaq received it indirectly throung ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Bakr [d. 135].


This narration does not refer to the existence of a stoning “verse” in the Qur`an [8]. The words “al-rajm in the Book of God” may suggest such a reference but this is far from being necessary. For, in the first place, Bukhari’s narration (see below) does not contain the words “in the Book of God” and therefore it is not certain that these words were a part of the original narration of al-Zuhri. And, in the second place, even if the reference to the Book of God is original, it is not necessary that the reference is to the Qur`an. To be in the Book of God can also mean to be a part of the divine law given through the Sunnah/Hadith or even through earlier revelations. This is supported by the fact that the narration talks about proof by pregnancy, which is not mentioned in the Qur`an or any allegedly missing verse in the Qur`an. Similarly, in the story of the stoning of an employer’s wife to be discussed in detail in Chapter 9, it is said that the Prophet ordered, according to the Book of God, that the unmarried man who committed zina` with her be exiled and given 100 lashes, but the Qur`an nowhere mentions exile as a punishment for zina`.


At first sight it appears to be a reasonable hypothesis that Muwatta’s narration has focused entirely on one saying (“al-rajm in the Book of God is justly laid …”) in ‘Umar’s khutbah, that is, it is a drastically shortened form of al-Zuhri’s long narration. If so, it is unlikely that Malik shortened the narration, since a similar narration with a different isnad is also found in Bukhari (see below). But there is a strong indication that the saying is not extracted from the long version but represents a separate tradition that al-Zuhri sometimes narrated separately and sometimes as a part of ‘Umar’s hadith. This indication is provided by the fact that the saying is found only in al-Zuhri’s narrations of ‘Umar’s hadith. If it were part of ‘Umar’s hadith from the beginning, we expect to find in some other narrations, which is not the case. As we shall see later, al-Zuhri has been criticized by some of his contemporaries to attribute narrations to a Successor without personally hearing from him and also to put together narrations from different unknown sources to produce a longer narration.



Bukhari’s narrations

Bukhari gives three narrations of ‘Umar’s hadith: 6327, 6328, 6778. The first of these is very similar to Ibn Ishaq’s narration. The third also seems to be a short form [9] of the narration used by Ibn Ishaq. The second is a slight variation of Muwatta’s narration, as we now show.

The narration (Bukhari 6328) reads:

‘Ali bin ‘Abd Allah related to us: Sufyan related to us from al-Zuhri from ‘Ubayd Allah from Ibn ‘Abbas who said:
‘Umar said: I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, ‘We do not find al-rajm in the Book of God,’ and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that God has sent down. Beware! Surely, al-rajm is justly laid on whoever commits zina` and is married and there is direct evidence (of witnesses) or  pregnancy (al-haml) or confession. "

The narration is followed by two notes:
Sufyan added, "I have memorized (this narration) in this way." (‘Umar also) said, "Surely God’s Messenger carried out the penalty of al-rajm, and so did we after him."  (Bukhari 6327).
The natural way to understand Sufyan’s words, “I memorized this narration in this way”, is that they mark the end of his narration. The additional words attributed to ‘Umar (“Surely God’s Messenger carried out … " were therefore not part of Sufyan’s narration but were added as a note from some other source. Sufyan’s narration like that of Malik thus focused on ‘Umar’s saying about the rules of evidence (“Surely, al-rajm is justly laid on whoever commits zina` … pregnancy or confession”). Al-rajm was justified only on the basis of this saying. There was no mention of the Sunnah of the Prophet and his Companions or of a missing verse about stoning. Unlike the narration of Muwatta it is not even said that “al-rajm is justly laid in the Book of God”; it is only said that “al-rajm is justly laid” without any reference to the Book of God.


We may see a hint about the stoning “verse” in the description of al-rajm as an obligation that “God has sent down”. But, as we noted earlier, rules considered part of the Shari‘ah can be said to be in the Book of God even if they are not found in the Qur`anic text. Similary, rules can be said to be “sent down by God” even if they are not part of the Qur`anic revelation. In  this narration ‘Umar’s ijtihad is considered a valid source of Islamic Shari‘ah and so it is said to sent down by God.


Moreover, narrators frequently express earlier traditions in their own words, often influenced by their understanding of those traditions. Thus the particular narration under consideration might have been influenced by some narrator’s assumption that it refers to a stoning verse, an assumption that might have led him to use the words “sent down”. It is certainly true that other narrations express ‘Umar’s words differently:

I fear that there will come groups who will not find [al-rajm] in the Book of God and so will reject it. (Tirmidhi 1351)

Here al-rajm is not described as an “obligation God has sent down”. In Ibn Majah there is a narration from Sufyan that also uses somewhat different words:

I indeed fear that as time passes someone will say, I do not find al-rajm in the Book of God and thus people are led astray by abandoning an obligation from among the obligations of God. (Ibn Majah 2543)  [10]

Hence we conclude that Bukhari 6328, like Malik’s narration, does not assume a missing stoning verse and focuses on the saying about the rules of evidence.


Our discussion of al-Zuhri’s narrations further shows:

The saying about rules of evidence represents a separate tradition that was introduced into ‘Umar’s hadith by al-Zuhri. This is because the saying is found only in al-Zuhri’s narrations.

For the same reason, the saying “part of what God sent down was the verse of al-rajm … ” was also not found in the earliest version of ‘Umar’s hadith. It was added later by al-Zuhri.

We can therefore get much closer to the earliest form of ‘Umar’s hadith by omitting the two above-mentioned sayings. This leads us to the version:

God’s Messenger did carry out stoning and so did we after him. I am afraid that with the passage of time people will say that they find no mention of al-rajm in God's Book and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation sent down by God.


A narration from Sa ‘d bin Ibrahim from ‘Ubayd Allah

Muhammad bin Ja‘far and Hajjaj related to us: Shu‘bah related to us from Sa‘d bin Ibrahim who said: I heard ‘Ubayd Allah bin ‘Utbah relate from Ibn ‘Abbas from ‘Abd al-Rahman bin ‘‘Awf who said:

‘Umar performed hajj and intended to address the people. ‘Abd al-Rahman bin ‘Awf said (to ‘Umar), All kinds of riffraff (ra‘a‘) have gathered around you (in the season of hajj), so delay it till you go to Madinah. When he arrived in Madinah, I sat close to him near the minbar and I heard him say:

There are people who say, What is this al-rajm when in the Book of God there is only flogging? The Messenger of God stoned and we stoned after him. Were it not that they will say I have inscribed in the Book of God what is not there, I would have inscribed it as it was sent down. (Ahmad 333).

Notice that the two sayings that we identified above as al-Zuhri’s additions to ‘Umar’s hadith are not to be found in this narration. There are no rules of evidence and there is nothing like the explicit reference to the stoning verse that we find in some of al-Zuhri’s narrations. The stoning verse is not even implicitly assumed here. When ‘Umar says that he “would have inscribed it” in the Book of God “as it was sent down”  [11], the meaning is not that he would have restored to the Qur`an a verse that was once there and is now missing. Rather, the meaning is that he would have written in the Qur`an a statement about al-rajm that was not there. The statement that people will accuse ‘Umar of adding to the Book of God “what is not there” is in fact an admission that the Qur`an never contained anything about stoning.


Although there is only one chain that reaches Sa‘d bin Ibrahim, there are grounds to think that Ahmad 192 [12], said to be transmitted by al-Zuhri, was originally also transmistted by Sa‘d [13], which provides another chain reaching Sa‘d and thus increases the probability that Sa‘d did transmit ‘Umar’s hadith in the name of ‘Ubayd Allah, which in turn increases the probability that ‘Ubayd Allah transmitted the hadith in some form.




LET ME STOP HERE, DO YOU STILL NEED OTHER NARRATIONS TO SHOW THAT IT WASNT INCLUDED IN THE QURAN LET ALONE BEING REMOVED?

Missing Texts in Some English Translations of the Qur'an!!

My dear babs787 is worried about some versions of the Bible that have some verses (like the KJV) that some other versions do not have (like the RSV). This again is another issue I would like him and his folks to understand - that the Qur'an also suffers the same fate in versions that are circulated among Muslims.

I found this interesting website that spotted some missing texts from Rashad Khalifa's Qur'an. Since babs787 is in the habit of quoting spurious articles to discredit the Bible and Christians, I thought he would like to see what Muslims do with their own Qur'an.

I'll just post the comments on the page so readers can follow what is being stated their:

"Please examine the pages numbered 2 and 3 below. Allah Countervails and removes the entire Verse 2: 5 from the Arabic Text of Rashad's publication below. The hi-lited missing text is written with pencil by a friend of mine. Later on, on page 597 you will discover the Verse 95: 5 missing, in the English text."



Deluded stimulus. It has become glaring that you are just wasting your time, posting irrelevant senseless posts. How many muslims have you seen using the Quran of that your prophet. You can see the difference between Islam and Christianity. Every tom, dick and harry can just write the bible and you will be carrying it about, but in case of Muslim we verify things and reject anything that comes out as false.

Rashad Khalifa (November 19, 1935 – January 31, 1990) was a false prophet and an Egyptian biochemist who became a US citizen and took residence in Tucson, Arizona. Khalifa was murdered in January, 1990.


Dr Rashad Khalifa claimd to have been A Divine Messenger of The Covenant whereas he was a false prophet just like Ghulam Ahmad. He has followers called the submitters.


The Submitters also reject the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (saws)- not part of it, but the whole of it. For the Submitters, the Sunnah is not a source of Islam. The problems this presents are overwhelming, for by doing so the Submitters have effectively destroyed their ability to perform:
· Salaat (obligatory prayers), the second pillar of Islam
· Zakat (obligatory tax), the third pillar of Islam
· Sawm (fasting), the fourth pillar of Islam
· Hajj (pilgrimage), the fifth pillar of Islam

With four out of the five pillars of Islam removed, the Submitters have little to back their claim to being "Muslim". The true Messenger of Islam (saws) warned Muslims of falling into this trap,
Narrated AbuRafi': The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "Let me not find one of you reclining on his couch when he hears something regarding me which I have commanded or forbidden [i.e. from the Sunnah -ed.] and saying: 'We do not know. What we found in Allah's Book [i.e. the Qur'an] we have followed.'" Book 40, Number 4588 of Sunan Abu-Dawud.

Let me have mising verses from the Quran of Picktall, yussuf Ali etc. The guy up was a false prophet just as you are being deluded by your authors.




There are articles available on the net where on-going debates are raging between Muslims about the corruptions of the Qur'an. Some of these will be served later.


What articles? You meant christian websites. Muslims are not debating on anything. He was well known to us, so you have nowhere to hide bros . Give me missing verses from that of Yussuf, Picktall etc.



TRUTH HAS COME FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO PERISH.

The Quran makes this claim:

Verily, we have sent down the Reminder, and, verily, we will guard it. Q15:9

According to Muslim commentators like Ibn Kathir, this Reminder is the Quran since just a few verses before that we read in the same Surah:

But they say, ‘O thou to whom the Reminder has been sent down! verily, thou art possessed.’ Q15:6

Muslims say that, “O thou to whom the reminder has been sent down,” refers to Muhammad and therefore the Reminder spoken about here must be the Quran. Muslims conclude that this is Allah’s promise that the Qur'an cannot be corrupted and is accurately preserved to this day.

Some Christian apologists make the argument that the Reminder refers to all of Allah’s messages including the one revealed in the Bible. Muslims usually reject this claim and say that Allah guards only the Quran. Taking into account everything that the Quran says about the Scriptures of the Jews and the Christians, one can make a solid argument that the Quran presupposes that the Jews and Christians possess indeed God’s authentic and uncorrupted revelation (see these articles). However, since Muslims often do not accept those arguments, the purpose of this paper is to show that their position leads to a set of logical problems. Thus, for argument’s sake I will go along with these Muslim claims, and explore where this interpretation will lead us when taken together with some other Muslim convictions.

In other places, the Quran makes the claim to be impeccable:

falsehood shall not come to it, from before it, nor from behind it - a revelation from the wise, the praiseworthy One. Q41:42

Do they not meditate on the Qur'ran? if it were from other than God they would find in it many a discrepancy. Q4:82

At the same time, Muslims believe that there are verses in the Quran which say that the previous Revelations have been corrupted:

O thou Apostle! let not those grieve thee who vie in misbelief; or those who say with their mouths 'We believe,' but their hearts do not believe; or of those who are Jews, listeners to a lie, - listeners to other people, but who come not to thee. They pervert the words from their places and say, ' If this is what ye are given, take it; but if ye are not given it, then beware!' but he whom God wishes to mislead, thou canst do nothing with God for him; these are those whose hearts God wishes not to purify, for them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the next is mighty woe, Q5:41; check also Q3:78, Q2:79, Q4:46 and Q5:13.

Those Muslims who believe that the above verses prove that the Bible has been corrupted have obviously not pondered over the fact that the Quran explicitly says elsewhere that it is impossible for God's Word to be changed:

for them are good tidings in the life of this world, and in the future too; there is no changing the words of God! That is the mighty happiness! Q10:64

Called liars too were apostles before thee; but they were patient of being called liars and of being hurt until our help came to them; for there is none to change the words of God - now has there come to thee the story of those He sent. Q6:34

The Quran even commands the Muslims to believe in the previous Revelations:

who believe in what is revealed to thee (Muhammad), and what was revealed before thee, and of the hereafter they are sure. Q2:4

The Apostle (Muhammad) believes in what is sent down to him from his Lord, and the believers (Muslims) all believe on God, and His angels, and His Books, and His apostles,- we make no difference between any of His apostles,- they say, 'We hear and obey, Thy pardon, O Lord! for to Thee our journey tends. Q2:285

Say (O Muslims), 'We believe in God, and what has been revealed to thee, and what was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and what was given to Moses, and Jesus, and the prophets from their Lord,- we will make no distinction between any of them,- and we are unto Him resigned. Q3:84

These previous Revelations include the following:

We did reveal the Torah (Tawrat), wherein is guidance and a light , Q5:44

And already have we written in the Psalms (Zabur) after the reminder that the earth shall my righteous servants inherit.' Q21:105

Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel (Injil), containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous. Q5:46

Let us summarize the claims that were presented so far:

The Quran is preserved.
God’s Revelations which preceded the Quran include the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel.
These Books make up a large portion of the Holy Bible.
The Quran, the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are all the Word of Allah.
God's Word does not change.
The revelations that came before the Quran have become corrupted.
Although Muslims should believe that these previous Books are the genuine Revelations from God,
they have to trust only the Quran as the final revelation and the only one that is preserved.
We now have to deal with this logic:

The Quran, the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel are all Allah’s Word.
The current Torah, Psalms and Gospel are corrupted.
The final word of Allah, the Quran is preserved.
1st Conclusion: Some of Allah’s Words are corrupted
2nd Conclusion: Some of Allah’s Words are preserved.

Based on the above generalizations we can construct these deductive arguments:

Major premise: Some of Allah’s Words are corrupted.
Minor premise: The Quran is Allah’s Word.
Conclusion: The Quran could be corrupted.

Or we could do it another way:

Major premise: Some of Allah’s Words are preserved.
Minor premise: The Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are Allah’s Words.
Conclusion: The Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel could be preserved.

The Main Problem

Since Allah allowed his previous Revelations to be corrupted by weak human people, this leads to one of the following assumptions about Allah:

Allah is a weak god; he could not protect his previous Revelations. He also gains more power and might throughout time, because he supposedly is now able to protect his last revelation, the Quran.
Allah does not care about people being misled by counterfeit revelations. And yet he will still punish individuals with hell fire because they follow a corrupted Message even though they may have not come to the realization that Allah had allowed it to be corrupted. That means Allah is unjust.
In light of the above, how can we trust that the Quran is preserved if these three Revelations are corrupted? How can a person trust that Allah did not fail to protect his so-called final revelation, the Quran, when he was too weak to prevent people from tampering with his previous Messages?

Maybe Allah needs to a send a fifth revelation? Perhaps he has already sent down this fifth book, and that is actually the revelation given to Baha’ullah the founder of the Baha’i faith?

More importantly, how do Muslims reconcile their position with Allah’s claim in the Quran that “there is no changing the words of God”?

Muslims, you have to make a decision and choose one of these alternatives:

The Quran is preserved and the earlier Revelations are corrupted. In that case, Allah is either weak or he is unjust. That is the only explanation for his preservation of the Quran and letting people corrupt his previous Revelations.
The Quran is corrupted like the other Revelations. Then you should either not read it since you do not read other corrupted Revelations, or maybe you should read these other corrupted Revelations just as you insist on reading the corrupted Quran.
The Quran is preserved, and the previous Revelations have also been preserved. That means then you should read these authentic Revelations (the Bible) for yourself.
The Quran is corrupted but the earlier Revelations are preserved. Obviously, you should then abandon the Quran and read the Bible.
Just a second, I’m not finished yet.

If you picked option number three, then you will be faced with another problem. The Quran contradicts these previous Revelations in many essential points. That means that the Quran is a false message which cannot be from God since God is not the author of confusion. He could not reveal a message that contradicts his previous Messages.

If you do not like these alternatives, then tell me:

What exactly do you think is wrong with my above observations and conclusions?

If you do not accept my premises and therefore reject my conclusions, then:

PROVE TO ME THAT THE QURAN IS PRESERVED.

You have to do that in a rational way without quoting the Quran since that would only be a repetition of the claim, not a proof, or trying to prove that the previous Revelations are corrupted which in no way proves the Quran not to be corrupted, or providing me with (what I consider fake) scientific miracles in the Quran. I want you to resolve the philosophical problem outlined above.

Show me logically and rationally how the Muslim assertion of a perfectly preserved Quran together with an alleged corruption of God’s earlier Revelations is not an insult to God’s perfect justice and great power.

Blessings

babs787:


Rashad Khalifa (November 19, 1935 – January 31, 1990) was a false prophet and an Egyptian biochemist who became a US citizen and took residence in Tucson, Arizona. Khalifa was murdered in January, 1990.

murdered by islamic extremists?

babs787:

Dr Rashad Khalifa claimd to have been A Divine Messenger of The Covenant whereas he was a false prophet just like Ghulam Ahmad. He has followers called the submitters.


The Submitters also reject the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (saws)- not part of it, but the whole of it. For the Submitters, the Sunnah is not a source of Islam. The problems this presents are overwhelming, for by doing so the Submitters have effectively destroyed their ability to perform:
· Salaat (obligatory prayers), the second pillar of Islam
· Zakat (obligatory tax), the third pillar of Islam
· Sawm (fasting), the fourth pillar of Islam
· Hajj (pilgrimage), the fifth pillar of Islam

With four out of the five pillars of Islam removed, the Submitters have little to back their claim to being "Muslim". The true Messenger of Islam (saws) warned Muslims of falling into this trap,
Narrated AbuRafi': The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "Let me not find one of you reclining on his couch when he hears something regarding me which I have commanded or forbidden [i.e. from the Sunnah -ed.] and saying: 'We do not know. What we found in Allah's Book [i.e. the Qur'an] we have followed.'" Book 40, Number 4588 of Sunan Abu-Dawud.

Rejecting another variant of islam huh?

babs787:

Let me have mising verses from the Quran of Picktall, yussuf Ali etc. The guy up was a false prophet just as you are being deluded by your authors.

why the emphasis on the particular authors you want? It is rather laughable that you keep on bringing excuses here and there; the known muslim way

this thread is bound to die a natural death as long as all we see posted here are long thesis. Please keep your replies short and straight on point so others can contribute as they see fit. Thanks.

Truth has come, falsehood is bound to disappear.

@LoveKing,

LoveKing:

I've been thinking : nossycheek,stimulus and david whats your beef with islam?moslems and muhammad? let them be in their falsehood (if thats what you guys think of islam). Christians (if thats what you are) don't need to fight over ideologies and what is truth. This debate is making me sick.

Please try and get well quick. It only sickens me when people like you keep mute when Muslims won't let us be. I don't have any beef with Islam - read the opening lines of my first post, thank you. I must be a very queer kind of Christian (as you suggested) for facing up to the silly antics of Muslims who continue unabated in castigating Christianity and the Bible. He threw challenges, I answered - what's making you sick in that?

LoveKing:

And about allah. I don't know who explained about the existence of allah. I kind of saw reasons with him about allah being a pagan god centuries before islam. well someone was named abd-allah (allegiance to allah-the god) before muhammad (if he existed) came to earth.

There again, I'm not the one openly stating what anyone thinks about 'Allah' - let the Muslims prove that to us! As for Muhammad having existed at all, it makes me wonder if you have the facts in front of you before posting anything.

Cheers.

OK let's agree that the Koran has the injil,Torah and psalms all incorporated in the Koran as babs said.
what  was allah talking about when he said if you had any doubts,consult the people of the book?
does it mean when allah said that he didn't know the torah and injil have already been corrupted
or were they corrupoted after he said it and how could allah not know this?

secondly can you tell me where in the Koran I can read of Naaman and eleazar and other olld and new testament stories in the uncorrupted Koran or did allah forget

babyosisi:

OK let's agree that the Koran has the injil,Torah and psalms all incorporated in the Koran as babs said.
what was allah talking about when he said if you had any doubts,consult the people of the book?

secondly can you tell me where in the Koran I can read of Naaman and eleazar?

He will not tell you. Rather he will come back with another 10 pages of denials and excuses that they are LOST!!

@babs787,

babs787:

@stimulus

Hope you have been reading them . You are exposing your falsehood further. You can see now that babs answered your questions more than you ever expected, so you should stop avoiding my questions, answer my questions in other threads to show christianity is not a false religion.

You really didn't expect to wake up to find the propaganda in Islam exposed, did you? Relax, you really haven't said anything other than filling the pages with your usual roundabout denials. Anyone can do that in a few minutes. What I asked for, you failed to produce - and where does that leave your Qur'an?? Isn't it a shame that you claimed they were LOST, and then coming back to dribble around that claim with another lie that you didn't mean to say that? No worry, I already know that your type are strangers to truth and reason - so enjoy!!

babs787:

It seems my exposing your falsehood pained you to your marrow hence the creation of many threads by your friends, but never mind, babs will respond but will soon expose more of your falsehood.

Pained? Not a bit! From my office, I solved your antics and still got on with my job smoothly. You were hoping that would be my reaction. Sorry, your uranium nuke went back to your roof!! When you were creating multiple threads, you didn't clean you jiga well enough to complain back then; so your hypocrisy is only being acentuated by you.

babs787:

TRUTH HAS COME FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO PERISH.

Na so. That is why we continue to oblige you the falsehood in islam - and it is only a matter of time before your falsehood will perish. Sit tight and hold a towel. .

@babs787,

When you argue issues, use your brains - it was not put there as a mass of pus!

babs787:

You sent three posts which will be answered one after the other. Truth has come falsehood is bound to perish. Be prepared to read my detailed response to your lies especially on the missing verse and that of Khalifites.

Sorry, but what is my worry that the lies are of the khalifites? Are they not in the Muslim camp? Oh, they are considered liars all of a sudden, after you spread your own gutter lies about Christianity, ba?

What gear? Where have I claimed to have been a Muslim? I relaxed, but since you're know for your hypocrisy and antics to continue your propaganda, I served you your own soup, nice and clean. Enjoy!!

babs787:

Brother it is not a fallacious argument. Check it out yourself from the papyril. Stop lying brother, it is glaring that bibles were written according to the church. I didn’t say the bible is imcomplete as result of the missing books alone but as well as some missing verses. Brother, you can't deceive us here, no explanation was provided. I didn’t say the bible is imcomplete based on missing books alone, but also on missing verses, chapters. Check them out in this thread, ‘is bible comple’.

When you're done sobbing, please make more interesting post. You can accuse me of lying; but al-taqiyya is not my religion!! Do the simple sane thing any underaged school kid would do - check out the claims. You offered the fallacious argument that because of those books not found in the Bible, therefore your otiose inference was that the Bible was not complete. I only used the same silly argument in examining your Qur'an; and the result is not any different.

babs787:

You didn’t apply the rules of the missing verses in some bible eg RSV, Good News bible etc

Oh, just relax. I serve your pies in piecemeal lest you ckoke on having too much to chew!!

babs787:

Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)"

Good! Hold on to that Arabian reconstructed tale; and as we proceed, you'll get the silly gist exposed about what Muhammad was dreaming up. The accusations that you guys have been throwing around will be scrutinized one by one.

babs787:

Brother, hope your BP is normal because I can sense that my posts annoyed you. Don’t worry, calm down, it is well. Now like I keep telling you, the Quran is not written like the bible where you have books written by different authors abi na prophet sef. The Quran contains Gospel, Injil and Psalm.

I'm a normal thinking person who has refused to be mute against your illiterate propaganda. It is only when you read posts exposing your hypocrisy that you begin to ask if my BP was normal. So, where are the Gospel, Injil and Psalm (as if "Gospel" and "Injil" are different)?? Haba, babs787, why you no take style dust up on your shame? Please humour me the more - what exactly are written in the non-existent Gospel, Injil and Psalm of the Qur'an that you claimed were lost?? Are you quickly eating back your words as pilgrim.1 warned earlier?

When something is LOST, it cannot be found!! Coming back to claim the direct opposite of what you earlier stated is cowardise and dishonest!! Abi your Eng-lish don change to Qura-lish??

babs787:

You will read the stories of Moses, Abraham and David in the Quran, this goes to tell you that, their books are included in the Quran . if I say their books, I mean their stories as written in the bible and we have them in the Quran. It tells you that the Quran contains the Gospel, Injil and Psalm.

Nope. You never meant that "books" is the same thing as "stories". When pilgrim.1 offered an explanation in stronger persuasion, you threw it out wholesale, but now you're crying wadada because it has come back to you! Meanwhile, the Qur'an never called them "stories" - it says that they are "BOOKS"!! Unless you're attempting to write your own version of the Qur'an, please stick to what Muhammad called them: "The Books of Abraham and Moses", (Sura 87:18-19); not "the stories of Abraham and Moses"

Second, you never made the assumption that any of those books including the Torah, Gospel and Psalms were included in the Qur'an. Scroll back up and see what you said as I quoted; and if you're trying to play silly with this, then I will quote it directly for you once again:

babs787:

IS THE QURAN WRONG IN STATING THAT THE TORAH WAS LOST OR CORRUPTED?

click here and read it!

babs787:

The Quran is the last book revealed to the seal of the prophets because the original message of both Torah and Gospel cannot be found.

click here to read it!

There they are! So, don't even try to cut corners with me, because I warned you in the first post of this thread that you will come back exposing your dishonesty, deception and hypocrisy!! I should have captioned this thread: "BABS787 EXPOSED!!" and make readers see the hypocrite that you are. You can't even stand up to your own words, and then you have the temerity to be calling Christians liars! I hope your brethren will see you exposed for the real person that you are!! Enjoy the exposure!!

@babs787,

babs787:

You have shown another level of ignorance here. You are expecting it to be arranged in the Quran in this order: book of Abraham followed by book of Moses etc, nay brother. The books contain stories about the prophets during their time and we have everything you need to know about Abraham and Moses in the Quran.

Your ignorance or mine, just where are the books in the Qur'an, babs787?? I don't mind if they were arranged in any order by Ali, Zaid, or the third Caliph's committee; the question is, where are they in the Qur'an?

babs787:

Quran 3 v 65: O people of the scripture! Why do you dispute about Abraham while the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have you then no sense? So the Quran contains everything you need to know about them and by saying that it has included their books because the Torah contains story of Jesus and we have his story in the Quran. the Injil contains that of Moses and we have his story in the Quran too. So that answers your question.

I never realized you could be so badly hit!! To the extent that you're now confusing yourself and confiscating your IQ. Take a look at that line again: "the Torah contains story of Jesus" - even the Qur'an does not teach that. Have you become another Khalifite overnight?

The Qur'an never said that it included any of those books, and no muslim has ever taught that rubbish at all except the hypocrites! You're trying to buy a cheap escape route for your denials, but it won't work. The Qur'an mentions those books as separate from anything revealed to Muhammad - and that fact alone stands clear as testimony that, in just the same way you have alleged against the Bible, so the Qur'an is by far more seriously lacking in integrity! It does not say "stories"; and I did not ask you for "stories". The Qur'an mentions them as "BOOKS" - and if you cannot produce those books, accept your hypocrisy has failed you badly!

babs787:

#3. Where are the honoured books? || Sura 80:12-16
'So let him who pleases mind it. In honored books, Exalted, purified,
In the hands of scribes, Noble, virtuous.

like I told your sister nossycheeks, your authors have been putting you in troubles. Must they lie to you in preaching false doctrines. If you had read the Quran before posting, you would have seen that the above verses are talking about the Quran and I will give them to you for your understanding. Please tell your authors to stop deceiving you

Quran 80 v 11: nay (do not do like this); indeed it (this Quran) is an admonition.

V12: so whoever wills, let him pay attention to it.

V 13: it is in records held greatly in honour

V 14: exalted in dignity, purified

V 15: in the hands of scribes (angels)

V 16: honourable and obedient

Hope you have seen that?

Again, you're taking a bad hit, bro!! Playing Islamic games is what you do best! Why you dey lie like say na your second nature?? The authors you claimed lied to me are Muslim authors - because it is their books I quoted. If they lied, what's my problem with that?? Check and see that my quote was from Shakir's translation; and I'm sure he would not take kindly to your calling him a liar as an author!

Now, go over again in your own version - don't you see that you even tried to deceive yourself by misquoting and adjusting their translation? You quoted from the Hilali-Khan translation, and for all that you still had to omit some of the words in them. I'll help you see the difference:

quoted by babs787 Hilali-Khan translation

¹¹nay (do not do like this); Nay, (do not do like this),
indeed it (this Quran) indeed it (these Verses of this Qur'an)
is an admonition are an admonition,

The highlighted words are those you deleted!! Thank you, sir!!

Meanwhile, you have once again confirmed that ANY translation of the Qur'an will most definitely contain errors! If you cannot trust Shakir's translation because your gimmicks are exposed, then what is the rational for even your misquoting Hilali-Khan's translation??

babs787:

#4. What 'books' are being referred to; and WHERE are they? || Sura 66:12
'And Marium, the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity,
so We breathed into her of Our inspiration and she accepted
the truth of the words of her Lord and His books, and she was of,
the obedient ones.'

Must you lie brother? Truth stands from falsehood. This is the verse

Quran 66 v 12: And Mary, the daughter of Imran who guarded her chastity. And we breathed into her through our angel (Jibril) and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord (i.e believed in the words of Allah; be – and he was; that is Jesus, son of Mary as a Messenger of Allah) and also believed in His scriptures and she was of the pious,

See you being further exposed! You're quoting and misquoting from Hilali-Khan's translation, while my quote was from Shakir's. Apart from the fact that I haven't misquoted Shakir's, here's once again the verse from Hilali-Khan that you have cheated on (wordings that you tampered with are in bold; the one's you removed are in red):

yours:
And Mary, the daughter of Imran who guarded her chastity. And we breathed
into her through our angel (Jibril) and she testified to the truth of the words of
her Lord (i.e believed in the words of Allah; be – and he was; that is Jesus,
son of Mary as a Messenger of Allah) and also believed in His scriptures and
she was of the pious.

Hilali-Khan:
And Maryam (Mary), the daughter of 'Imrân who guarded her chastity; and We
breathed into (the sleeve of her shirt or her garment) through Our Rûh [i.e.
Jibrael (Gabriel)], and she testified to the truth of the Words of her Lord [i.e.
believed in the Words of Allâh: "Be!" and he was; that is 'Iesa (Jesus) ­ son of
Maryam (Mary); as a Messenger of Allâh], and (also believed in) His Scriptures,
and she was of the Qanitîn (i.e. obedient to Allâh).

Click the link to access Hilali-Khan's online English translation of the Qur'an; and a second one here


You may call me anything you like: I'm used to it. But at least, please have the decency of being honest enough not to mislead your readers into believing and confirming my assertions that you're a total stranger to truth and reason!

babs787:

The books referred to are the scriptures i.e the Injil and the Gospel given to Moses and Jesus respectively. Na wa for your websites or authors.

Another otiose excuse. I'm sorry that I never read in the Qur'an that Muhammad's 'Allah' sent down any Injil to Moses - it maintains throughout that it was rather the Torah that was sent to Moses!! And even then, may I ask you once again:

Where are the Torah, the Injil, the Psalms, and ALL the books that you claim were lost?

If you cannot provide them, your Qur'an is standing on the same fallacious argument you alleged against the Bible. YOUR QUR'AN IS NOT A COMPLETE BOOK!! Period.

Filling the thread with silly misquotes of Hilali-Khan's English translation; calling me all sorts of names; and arguing with skewed theories in the hope that you will tire out the readers not to see your dribbles, are not going to help you round this subject it all. You have said nothing substantial so far; and I do hope that all your jackbooters can see you exposed for what you really are - a hypocrite who can't hold up to his own words!!

If it wasn't that nossycheek has provided you with further exposure to your games, I would gladly have obliged you something to keep you busy. The joke of calling me a liar, when you can't prove your familiarity to truth!

truth has come, falsehood is bound to disappear! Blabs787 has finally reached the end of his tether.

Stimulus that question has also been on my mind and I've asked it repeatedly.
Where did allah keep the Torah,psalms and Injil.
allah eeeeeeeeeeeeeee
where are they?

they are under the ka'aba, go and have a look. Allah has graciously preserved the parchments, its just that the likes of blabs787 are too busy "stoning the devil" to look.

@babyosisi,

babyosisi:

Stimulus that question has also been on my mind and I've asked it repeatedly.
Where did allah keep the Torah,psalms and Injil.
allah eeeeeeeeeeeeeee
where are they?

Lol. . . it's quite simple: they were burnt by the third Caliph Uthman!!

Didn't babs787 loudly proclaim that they are LOST?? He's now been exposed for the hypocrite that he is; and I hope his consolers have been here to see and privately congratulate his failed deception!

He actually said they were lost?
How could allah be so careless?
That jinn that failed to guard them needs to have his virgins given to another!