Bastage:

Which sanctions that target impoverished people?

The only sanctions in place are those that target individuals like Mugabe and his cronies.

Don't mind him. Like i said b4, he know nothing about Zim

And you assume that by swallowing everything you hear you know what is going on. Mugabe was a friend of the west until he started his land redistribution. And for you information, your so called sanctions contributed to the death of the Zimbabwean economy. Who suffers from that? Mugabe?

These guys are jokers, where were they just a few weeks ago when Black Africans were being targeted and killed in Liyba? They are always mute on real issues that affect Africans instead they are talking about something they have no control over or even a real stake in considering that Libyans consider themselves as Arabs

Which sanctions and how did they kill the Zimbabwe economy?

Simple questions.

KenGali:

And you assume that by swallowing everything you hear you know what is going on. Mugabe was a friend of the west until he started his land redistribution. And for you information, your so called sanctions contributed to the death of the Zimbabwean economy. Who suffers from that? Mugabe?

That land was at the heart of Zimbabean economy, the white farmers are Zimbabwean, many of them were born and raised in Zimbabwe, they lived all their lives in Zimbabwe, farming is their business, they contributed far more to the economy than black Zimbabweans. They are not foreigners, Mugabe played politics with the land reform cos many memebers of MDC are white. Black Zimbabweans work and live in those farms financec by white farmers. Zimbabwean economy went down after Mugabe threw white farmers out. Some of them are now  in Nigeria  doing well, some moved to Namibia, South Africa and other Southern African countries.

The african union's voice does not count, if it did they would have made their presence felt by puting pressure on nigeria, south africa and gabon and forced them to abstain from voting like the BRIC countries did, instead what you had were 3 african nations allowing themselves to be used as pawns in order to get the requisite 9 votes in  to pass this resolution.

All i can say to the libyan rebels is look at iraq and pakistan - look at the drones that the US govt are using to kill men, women and children in those countries  -  that is your future, they should also look at nigeria - a country run by western controlled puppets which couldnt care less about its own people - if that is their own idea of progress then i wish them luck.

In 2005 libya's state owned oil company NOC renegotiated the terms of the previous oil and gas contracts with the various International oil companies reducing their stake which was a whopping 49% and introducing more stringent terms, i wonder whether this has anything to do with the current stance adopted by europe and america:

Libya's oil industry is run by the state-owned National Oil Corporation (NOC). The NOC is
responsible for implementing the Exploration and Production Sharing Agreements (EPSA) with
international oil companies (IOCs). NOC is also responsible for field development and
improvements as well as downstream activities. IOCs operating in Libya work in exploration,
production, transportation and refining. IOCs with operations in Libya include Eni, Total, Repsol
YPF, StatoilHydro, Occidental, OMV, ConocoPhillips, Hess, Marathon, Shell, BP, ExxonMobil and
others.
IOC participation in Libya’s oil concessions was initially as high as 49 percent. However, changes
to the production sharing agreements under the EPSA – IV licensing round (2005) limited IOC
production shares. The Libyan government has since required that IOCs already operating in the
country rewrite existing contracts to comply with the new framework. The key elements include a
reduction of the companies’ share of output (up to half of what it was), a commitment of fresh
investment in exchange for an extension of the license period (some up to 15 years).

hmmm - gadaffi appeared to be coming down hard on these theifs, now i see why they desperately want to see the back of him.  

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/libya/pdf.pdf

Here is one of the answers to your simple question! Judge for yourself the last coloured part of the definition below and explain to me how restricting the whole country from getting loans, even from African Development Bank, affects only Mugabe and His friends?
That the US and Co. said it does not affect the people does not mean its true. Also note the fact that after the land seizures, the white farmers took to destroying their farms, etc, the finance restriction makes it difficult for the government to empower new black land owners to actually cultivate the land and produce.

Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery Act of 2001

"It is the policy of the United States to support the people of Zimbabwe in their struggle to effect peaceful, democratic change, achieve broad-based and equitable economic growth, and restore the rule of law."
[edit]

Sanctions

The sanctions nature of the Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery Act of 2001 are mentioned below:
It is the sense of Congress that the President should begin immediate consultation with the governments of European Union member states, Canada, and other appropriate foreign countries on ways in which to--
(1) identify and share information regarding individuals responsible for the deliberate breakdown of the rule of law, politically motivated violence, and intimidation in Zimbabwe;
(2) identify assets of those individuals held outside Zimbabwe;
(3) implement travel and economic sanctions against those individuals and their associates and families; and
(4) provide for the eventual removal or amendment of those sanctions

[b](c) MULTILATERAL FINANCING RESTRICTION- Until the President makes the certification described in subsection (d), and except as may be required to meet basic human needs or for good governance, the Secretary of the Treasury shall instruct the United States executive director to each international financial institution to oppose and vote against--
(1) any extension by the respective institution of any loan, credit, or guarantee to the Government of Zimbabwe; or
(2) any cancellation or reduction of indebtedness owed by the Government of Zimbabwe to the United States or any international financial institution.
The institutions directly affected by this policy are listed in Sec 3, titled Definitions:
SEC. 3. DEFINITIONS.
In this Act:
(1) INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS- The term `international financial institutions' means the multilateral development banks and the International Monetary Fund.
(2) MULTILATERAL DEVELOPMENT BANKS- The term `multilateral development banks' means the
International Bank for Reconstruction and Development, the International Development Association, the
International Finance Corporation, the
Inter-American Development Bank, the
Asian Development Bank, the
Inter-American Investment Corporation, the
African Development Bank, the
African Development Fund, the
European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, and the
Multilateral Investment Guaranty Agency
Especially the last institution, the Multilateral Investment Guarantee Agency is important in underwriting loans between governments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwe_Democracy_and_Economic_Recovery_Act_of_2001

justwise:

That land was at the heart of Zimbabean economy, the white farmers are Zimbabwean, many of them were born and raised in Zimbabwe, they lived all their lives in Zimbabwe, farming is their business, they contributed far more to the economy than black Zimbabweans. They are not foreigners, Mugabe played politics with the land reform cos many memebers of MDC are white. Black Zimbabweans work and live in those farms financec by white farmers. Zimbabwean economy went down after Mugabe threw white farmers out. Some of them are now  in Nigeria  doing well, some moved to Namibia, South Africa and other Southern African countries.

At this rate, am sure you will be at loss as to why Nigeria initiated the indigenization policy after the independence, afterall all those foreigners had been in Nigeria for years and there businesses were legitimately registered.   And you definitely have no problem being a black in a country where more than 90% of the productive resources where owned by a white minority of about 1%

Have you even asked yourself the method the whites used in acquiring those land during colonization or you are just assuming they were legitimately acquired, that agrarian indigenous black communities willingly gave away their farm lands?


On the other hand, the whites in South Africa had lived there for years, and were born in S.A, but how did that stop them from making themselves first class citizens and others second class? What made you think that the whites in nearby Zimbabwe did not copy similar supremacy tendency?

KenGali:

Here is one of the answers to your simple question! Judge for yourself the last coloured part of the definition below and explain to me how restricting the whole country from getting loans, even from African Development Bank, affects only Mugabe and His friends?
That the US and Co. said it does not affect the people does not mean its true. Also note the fact that after the land seizures, the white farmers took to destroying their farms, etc, the finance restriction makes it difficult for the government to empower new black land owners to actually cultivate the land and produce.

Some white farmers destroyed their equipment while the war vets destroyed the rest. Do u expect the white farmers to keep their quipments for Mubage thugs? The white farmers invested in those farmers, its their loan money and not the govt, why did the Zimbabwean govt finanace the black farmers?

Here also is an extract on colonization of Zimbabwe from wikipedia. Please tell me what right white farmers have over land they took over by force?

Rhodes used this document in 1890 to justify sending the Pioneer Column, a[b] group of white settlers protected by well-armed British South Africa Police (BSAP) through Matabeleland and into Shona territory to establish Fort Salisbury (now Harare).[/b] In 1893 and 1894, with the help of their new maxim guns, the BSAP would go on to defeat the Ndebele in the First Matabele War, a war which also resulted in the death of King Lobengula. Rhodes sought permission to negotiate similar concessions covering all territory between the Limpopo River and Lake Tanganyika, then known as "Zambesia".[13]

In accordance with the terms of aforementioned concessions and treaties,[13] Cecil Rhodes promoted the colonisation of the region's land, with British control over labour as well as precious metals and other mineral resources.[14] In 1895 the BSAC adopted the name "Rhodesia" for the territory of Zambesia, in honour of Cecil Rhodes. In 1898 "Southern Rhodesia" became the official denotation for the region south of the Zambezi,[15] which later became Zimbabwe. The region to the north was administered separately by the BSAC and later named Northern Rhodesia (now Zambia).
Shortly after the disastrous Jameson Raid South African Republic, the Ndebele were led by their spiritual leader Mlimo against the white colonials and thus began the Second Matabele War (1896–97). T[b]he Shona also staged unsuccessful revolts (known as Chimurenga) against encroachment upon their lands, by clients of BSAC and Cecil Rhodes in 1896 and 1897[/b].[16] Following the failed insurrections of 1896–97 the Ndebele and Shona groups became subject to Rhodes's administration thus precipitating European settlement en masse which led to land distribution disproportionately favouring Europeans, displacing the Shona, Ndebele, and other indigenous peoples.

KenGali:

At this rate, am sure you will be at loss as to why Nigeria initiated the indigenization policy after the independence, afterall all those foreigners had been in Nigeria for years and there businesses were legitimately registered.   And you definitely have no problem being a black in a country where more than 90% of the productive resources where owned by a white minority of about 1%
Have you even asked yourself the method the whites used in acquiring those land during colonization or you are just assuming they were legitimately acquired, that agrarian indigenous black communities willingly gave away their farm lands?
On the other hand, the whites in South Africa had lived there for years, and were born in S.A, but how did that stop them from making themselves first class citizens and others second class? What made you think that the whites in nearby Zimbabwe did not copy similar supremacy tendency?

The land redistribution would have been done without killing the white farmers and the farming business which is the back bone of their economy

justwise:

Some white farmers destroyed their equipment while the war vets destroyed the rest. Do u expect the white farmers to keep their quipments for Mubage thugs? The white farmers invested in those farmers, its their loan money and not the govt, why did the Zimbabwean govt finanace the black farmers?

I believe you are in a better position to answer that question since to you, preventing Zimbabwean Govt. from getting financial help from even our own African Development Bank does not constitute a Sanction against the Zimbabwean people and Zimbabwean Economy.

You can also explain how come Britain renegading on its pledge to compensate her lost and abandoned colonial workers and descendants in Zimbabwe does not smell of treachery to you!

KenGali:

I believe you are in a better position to answer that question since to you, preventing Zimbabwean Govt. from getting financial help from even our own African Development Bank does not constitute a Sanction against the Zimbabwean people and Zimbabwean Economy.

You can also explain how come Britain renegading on its pledge to compensate her lost and abandoned colonial workers and descendants in Zimbabwe does not smell of treachery to you!

Mugabe said he can do without the West, so the banks mainly owned by the West operating in Zim got every right to refused him loan. They know he can't pay back, African bank is not a charity organisation, they can't give loan to a govt that has just destroyed her only main source of income. He doesn't need the West, so the sanctions shouldn't affect him.

justwise:

Mugabe said he can do without the West, so the banks mainly owned by the West  operating in Zim got every right to refused him loan. They know he can't pay back, African bank is not a charity organisation, they can't give loan to a govt that has just destroyed her only main source of income. He doesn't need the West, so the sanctions shouldn't affect him.

Oga, if you do not have anything to say, then say nothing! If the West have a right to hold back their banks, then indigenous Zimbabweans have a right to hold back their lands and no one should complain. Except that your white friends started the complaints and even tried to use the UN security council to impose sanctions.

Who the hell told you that banks like IMF are just owned by the west. They may have the upper hand, but all organisations relating to the UNO are international properties and should  not be deployed as personal tools, except this same abuse is the neo colonization so talked of

Where have you heard that Zimbabwe was asking for charity, or did the sanction not clearly talk of loans.

From denying the existence of economic sanctions to justifying them. My friend, I think am done with this discussion cause you are no longer sounding reasonable.

KenGali:

Oga, if you do not have anything to say, then say nothing! If the West have a right to hold back their banks, then indigenous Zimbabweans have a right to hold back their lands and no one should complain. Except that your white friends started the complaints and even tried to use the UN security council to impose sanctions.
Who the hell told you that banks like IMF are just owned by the west. They may have the upper hand, but all organisations relating to the UNO are international properties and should not be deployed as personal tools, except this same abuse is the neo colonization so talked of
Where have you heard that Zimbabwe was asking for charity, or did the sanction not clearly talk of loans.
From denying the existence of economic sanctions to justifying them. My friend, I think am done with this discussion cause you are no longer sounding reasonable.

Before u start ranting about the IMF go and check how much the Zimbabwe was/is owing the IMF and reasons why they were refused loan. When i talked abt the banks owned by the West i was refering to Barclays bank and not IMF. Zimbabwean prob is Mugabe-made, he was getting almost everything free, living on incentives from the West, education, health, etc untill he bite the same hand that has being feeding him then they turned their backs on him. We are so quick to blame the West when things gets tough. How come the AU did not come to his aid?

b

^^^^^Thank you jare, YOU are the only person who has shown any sort of maturity and "deep reasoning" on this topic!

Most of the people on this topic "talk" as if they get all their news ONLY from CNN or France24!

At times, l feel as if NL is meant for School cert leavers, the way they reason on important events! No offense intended in any way)

It might be illegal, otherwise, l would have provided "links" to another 'Nigeria Village Square' website where anyone interested, could read various detailed analysis, by various writers and commentators, on this war in Libya but l dont want some Moderator to "hammer me yet"

Do yourselves a favor, take the hint!

lastpage:

^^^^^Thank you jare, YOU are the only person who has shown any sort of maturity and "deep reasoning" on this topic!
Most of the people on this topic "talk" as if they get all their news ONLY from CNN or France24!
At times, l feel as if NL is meant for School cert leavers, the way they reason on important events! No offense intended in any way)
It might be illegal, otherwise, l would have provided "links" to another 'Nigeria Village Square' website where anyone interested, could read various detailed analysis, by various writers and commentators, on this war in Libya but l dont want some Moderator to "hammer me yet"

Do yourselves a favor, take the hint!

In issue like this, there are many views and opinions, you don't have to agree with mind neither do i have to agree with urs. Its abit childish of u to put pple down just cos in ur little world u think that ur opinion is more appropriate. You have ur view about the West and i have my view about Gaddaffi simple.

hedges007:

i think the lesson America and the allied forces are teaching the rest of the world is simple, No matter what, no matter the inducements or pressure, never ever give up chemical weapons or a nuclear weapons pr, ogram. Doing so will not ensure that the U.S. does not attack you -- on the contrary, it will make it much more likely If you have Weapon of Mass Destruction, they threaten you with military actions, example: North Korea.

If you do not have or u give up Weapon of Mass Destruction, then they actually attack you, example: Iraq and Libya.

It could not be more clear. Thank you for bringing this important issue showing the hypocrisy of West.

it is all about tramping the weak Islamic nations whose dictators are not in anyway dancing their tunes and could not defend themselves effectivel­y.
Forget the offence of these dictators, its all about west politics, they will always shy away frm Isreal, North Korea and Iran who are somehow even worst than Ghadaffi, but coz those ones have a Nuke, and they've got all it takes to trigger third world war, hypocrates i say ! . I have heard over and over again their main point of protecting the rebels from a blood bath. I know Gaddafi is a bad guy but please tell me what American government would do if armed rebels with weapons were to attack the Capital building or the White House? Africans please open your eyes. The future is fraught , with mysteries and uncertainties. The Arab League has been used and misled into legitimising an illegal war. No one is talking about humanitarian assistance to the Libyan citizens caught up in a crises financed, cooked in Washington, and served by Europe. Moreover, like Iraq, the children of Libya will start suffering and giving to death from the effects of depleted uranium shortly following the use of Tomahawk cruise missiles (the price of each which stands at $575, 000) and other warheads by US forces on various locations in Libya. Other European countries are joining the waves of attacks on Libya because it provides live and risk-free training targets for their armed forces. New weapon systems are being tested on Libyan targets and civilians from warships and submarines because any life not European or American is dispensable.[size=11pt][/size]

thank you sir, you are very right, the biggest mistake libya made was to give up its weapons programme, this is the only way any nation can effectively protect its sovereignty.

i am now hearing that this un resolution that america and britain pushed for was obtained in breach of the UN charter:

The UN Charter's prohibition of member states of the UN attacking other UN member states is central to the purpose for which the UN was founded in the wake of the destruction of World War II: to prevent war. This overriding concern is also reflected in the Nuremberg Trials' concept of a crime against peace "starting or waging a war against the territorial integrity, political independence or sovereignty of a state, or in violation of international treaties or agreements, " (crime against peace), which was held to be the crime that makes all war crimes possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_VII_of_the_United_Nations_Charter

cap28:

thank you sir, you are very right, the biggest mistake libya made was to give up its weapons programme, this is the only way any nation can effectively protect its sovereignty.

i am now hearing that this un resolution that america and britain pushed for was obtained in breach of the UN charter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_VII_of_the_United_Nations_Charter

Did the UN back the No-Fly zone action or not?

actually, on the news today people were wondering why the US got involved without informing the senate.

i guess it's allowed?

most people also seem to be clueless about the exact links between the US and libya.

@ hedges007, A BIG THANK YOU.

@chyz im fully in support of your views.i mean it has never been proven that Ghadaffi killed innocent citizens except for the so called "rats" who took to arms thereby turning the revolution into a civil war.This same people are been sponsored by radical islamist anti-zionist regime from Iran et al.Frankly i am seriously disturbed that the western country's would not mind their own problems and allow others sovereign states manage themselves.This is mostly due to their selfish interest when it comes to making sure their citizens don't lack energy no matter what it takes.They see Libya as a major supplier and therefore could not afford to stand by and watch things unfold,most of them have old scores to settle with Ghadaffi and thus saw their chance to bring him down by coming under the umbrella of UN intervention eg.France etc.I foresee a great calamity befalling the civilians in Libya whom they claim to be protecting their interest.By the way,who are these citizens?Libyans right?the life of a Libyan or African does not mean anything to the western powers so they should stop deceiving us and come out plain to say they want to get Ghadaffi at all cost simple.This whole thing really undermines the growth of African states and their sovereignty.The AU should put a stop to this madness before it becomes the order of the day.

Fook Ghaddaffi anyways and the theives from the west too

African union has been compromised by the greed and corruption of its leaders. But they should know that what happened in libya may happen elsewhere in africa whenever the west considers it a necessity cos if this is allowed without total condemnation then we should begin to ask ourselves where next? An american diplomat once said nigeria may split in 2015 and with the unrests we are witnessing in the north and niger delta area i cant trust the US not trumping up a charge of alqueeda cells being active in nigeria. Gadaffi is the only african leader that has been consistently against the western domination in world affairs but he eventually became a victim through his overzealousness and sit tight syndrome. The US and its allies got a perfect opportunity to oust him even though they are only after their own selfish interests!

Timehin:

African union has been compromised by the greed and corruption of its leaders. But they should know that what happened in libya may happen elsewhere in africa whenever the west considers it a necessity cos if this is allowed without total condemnation then we should begin to ask ourselves where next? An american diplomat once said nigeria may split in 2015 and with the unrests we are witnessing in the north and niger delta area i cant trust the US not trumping up a charge of alqueeda cells being active in nigeria. Gadaffi is the only african leader that has been consistently against the western domination in world affairs but he eventually became a victim through his overzealousness and sit tight syndrome. The US and its allies got a perfect opportunity to oust him even though they are only after their own selfish interests!

very good points - the AU is powerless and can not challenge any western nation let alone the US controlled UN, what is happening in libya now sets a very dangerous precedent as it means that america along with its other collaborators can now safely invade a sovereign nation under any pretext they decide to cook up at any given time, i said in an earlier post that nigeria should watch her back as they might be next,  the oil and gas contracts that america and europe negotiated with gadaffi were made on terms which were not very favourable to their oil companies, i wonder what the current situation is in nigeria with regard to oil and gas contracts because if the nigerian govt  are getting a bigger cut out of it than the west are willing to tolerate and if the incomign govt refuses to redress this in favour of the west , nigeria might be destined for the next round of revolutions/bombing campaigns/ regime change or whatever they want to term it.

According to a wikileaks cable reports the US mission in nigeria have moles at the national assembly and some other top parastatals to monitor and influence decisions to their favour regarding the new petroleum act before being signed into law by the president. If these western interests could go as far as bribing govt officials i.e Halliburton, Siemens cases and they still brand nigeria corrupt whereas they are the ones behind most of these acts, then they can do anything to have their ways as far as their interests are concerned.

cap28:

very good points - the AU is powerless and can not challenge any western nation let alone the US controlled UN, what is happening in libya now sets a very dangerous precedent as it means that america along with its other collaborators can now safely invade a sovereign nation under any pretext they decide to cook up at any given time, i said in an earlier post that nigeria should watch her back as they might be next,  the oil and gas contracts that america and europe negotiated with gadaffi were made on terms which were not very favourable to their oil companies, i wonder what the current situation is in nigeria with regard to oil and gas contracts because if the nigerian govt  are getting a bigger cut out of it than the west are willing to tolerate and if the incomign govt refuses to redress this in favour of the west , nigeria might be destined for the next round of revolutions/bombing campaigns/ regime change or whatever they want to term it.

Goodpoint CAP28, but with regards to Nigeria that may be a "Bridge to far"
for US/NATO, the lie may be too obvious and it would be risky for
US/NATO to bomb/invade a Black African country, the biggest one for
that matter. And would the top African-American Military Brass buy into it??

The Somalian mis-adventure is a warning to them, and they know they would
find it hard to pull off,

@justwise?

In issue like this, there are many views and opinions, you don't have to agree with mind neither do i have to agree with urs. Its abit childish of u to put pple down just cos in your little world u think that your opinion is more appropriate. You have your view about the West and i have my view about Gaddaffi simple.

My comments were not directed at you nor at the simpleton responses you have been offering!
My comments were directed at the response of "hedges007",,,,and from the look of things, a few other people also agree with his sensible posting.

BTW: Its not enough to "just offer views and opinions", even when they are uninformed and outright ridiculous!
Am not asking you to agree or disagree either!
Mtchew

lastpage:

@justwise? My comments were not directed at you nor at the simpleton responses you have been offering!
My comments were directed at the response of "hedges007",,,,and from the look of things, a few other people also agree with his sensible posting.

BTW: Its not enough to "just offer views and opinions", even when they are uninformed and outright ridiculous!
Am not asking you to agree or disagree either!
Mtchew

What informed and non-ridiculous opinion do u have on this issue? Take urself out of this issue and given me a balanced view on this thread

justwise or what do you call yourself?
I will "humbly suggest" that you go back to your usual turf, in the "TRAVEL AND ROMANCE" SECTIONS!
You are way-out of your league, trying to venture into discussing international politics!

I will not even dignify your infantile comments with a response, less you think you're making sense!
Go hug a transformer, if you still feel irked

lastpage:

justwise or what do you call yourself?
I will "humbly suggest" that you go back to your usual turf, in the "TRAVEL AND ROMANCE" SECTIONS!
You are way-out of your league, trying to venture into discussing international politics!

I will not even dignify your infantile comments with a response, less you think you're making sense!
Go hug a transformer, if you still feel irked

U are such a waste of space, take over dose if u are tired of ur miserable life. What do you know about International politics? Silly cow