VPersiee:

So let me get this right:

Pride out of nowhere randomly came to satan's heart and made him sin? So evil had existed in space previously but (from the bible historical accounts), on a random day, satan became the first person to randomly fall for the previously existing evil (pride) and this led to the fall of man? And also God knew this will happen, but just decided to let it be so he can throw satan to earth, and then satan will make men sin, and then Jesus will come etc etc. And who created the evil(pride) that was existing before it "infected" satan? Did God do that? Why will God just create evil for no reason? So before satan fell for pride, were other angels also tempted by various evils and just managed to overcome the temptation?

I need answers. This is a precarious time for my faith.

You're beginning to ignore the obvious answer.

Here. From the same bible you should be reading:
I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: Therefore choose life. [Deuteronomy 30:19]

The answer is FREE WILL. Every living thing God has created has it. He does not delight in building robots pre-programmed to love & obey him, as that would be boring and won't really be love now would it? Free Will without choice is also a form of robotics. There needs to be a choice to be made for it to qualify as free will.

A choice was taken, a choice was made. The consequences of the choice, a necessary lesson for all creation. Anything other than that, feel free to ask God in heaven when you meet Him . . . that is if you overcome this pointless self-proclaimed weakness of your faith and actually make it there first.

-----
Another question on per with these is : Who made God? these kinds of questions you do not need to concern yourself with yet. they will be answered in another age.

Cheers,

2buff:


^^

dude, All angels have free will.

It's quite simple.

Devil dude looked in the mirror for centuries adoring his oiled biceps and glistening 12 pack.

Everyone told him what nice biceps, pecs and packs he had in casual conversation.

He finally decided he was hot enough to rule everything and figured he'd give it a shot.

end of story.  

Sweetnecta:


^^^^

is the answer to the op? you are joking for real about angel and their free will.

could you give us something michael or gabriel had done out of this 'freewill'.

you must able to produce one. you asked for it,

and i will not even take you and your pastor up about mirror and biceps as if its a bathroom or bedroom scene.

@Sweetnecta

Michael or Gabriel exercised their freewill by choosing to stay in line and not vacate their offices and posts

Where is your funny bone?

About mirror and biceps, does satire mean anything to you?   Pftt!

So, freewill is in heaven too, meaning that the place is not as perfect and sin-free as you christians are claiming the place to be, right? Is heaven not supposed to be free of sin and suffering? And yet, the place had A POLITICAL WAR! That is not exactly a perfect and peaceful place now, is it?

e36991:

@Sweetnecta

Michael or Gabriel exercised their freewill by choosing to stay in line and not vacate their office and posts

Where is your funny bone?

Mirror and biceps. Satire?   Pftt!

^^ understand this phrase. . .

a necessary lesson for all creation.

Sinning in heaven is pretty much impossible as you have the glory of God emanating everywhere, illuminating, pure, and love.
for something to sin in that environment, it must have weally weally weally wanted to in an overwhelming manner.

Jenwitemi:


So, freewill is in heaven too, meaning that the place is not as perfect and sin-free as you christians are claiming the place to be, right?

Is heaven not supposed to be free of sin and suffering? And yet, the place had A POLITICAL WAR!

That is not exactly a perfect and peaceful place now, is it?

@Jenwitemi

Not you too harping that a place is supposedly meant to be free of sin

The proverbial peaceful town ceases to be peaceful the moment someone breaks the peace

There is this yooba proverb that says:

"Ti oogun eni, ba dani loju, aa nfi gbari"

literally means

God let's the chips fall where they may because He knows He can hack and handle them.

Satan is/was not excepted from this

Someone needs to bring you up to speed . . .

Have you not read or heard that SIN and DEATH will be no more?

By the way, that is emphatic.

What! Why? How? When? I sense you asking or scratching your head 

@e36991; in the matters of salvation and damnation, the funny bone dies. reality my friend.

funny bone can lead a person to damnation. who wants to laugh his way to hell?

Sweetnecta:


@e36991;
in the matters of salvation and damnation, the funny bone dies.

reality my friend.

funny bone can lead a person to damnation. who wants to laugh his way to hell?

@Sweetnecta

Oro buruku toun terin 

Oun le ngbo yen ooo

meaning literally

To be forewarned, is to be forearmed,

a stitch in time saves lives nine

^^^^^ Whats the subtle statement all about?

my man truth is a serious business. come straight/plainly or don't come at all.

2buff:

Look at it this way. . .

You have 2 puppies. One is robotic/mechanical and only programed to love you. The other is a real-live breathing dog who chooses to love you.
Which love would you prefer? The mechanical programmed dog that never really had a choice? (slavery) or the free-minded dog who chooses to love you on it's own?
I was going to use a real vs robotic woman before for this example. . . but then you never know a man's mindset these days  

^^^An interesting analogy that calls to mind the film Artificial Intelligence in which the character of Monica Swinton must choose between David (the artificial child programmed to love her) and Martin (her biological son).

@OP: you have been provided enough answers to your questions but as men everywhere do, you will seek rationalizations for rejecting God.

2buff:

Look at it this way. . .

You have 2 puppies. One is robotic/mechanical and only programed to love you. The other is a real-live breathing dog who chooses to love you.
Which love would you prefer? The mechanical programmed dog that never really had a choice? (slavery) or the free-minded dog who chooses to love you on it's own?

I was going to use a real vs robotic woman before for this example. . . but then you never know a man's mindset these days  

I'm not talking about free will, I'm talking about actually meeting God then deciding to repent.

2buff:

<jokes>
Sounds like the next potential divine drama for another age . . . Not just this one so that's not my concern.
That would make some fine nollywood in heaven. 

My primary interest is to help get people saved from hell and make it to heaven, that task alone is ginormous, for without it, then there would be no cast members for the next potential Divine Drama part 2. 

</jokes>

Look jokes, aside, I just trust God.
Secondly, I don't believe God was oblivious to the fact that Lucifer was planning all that. He knew, as He knows all things, but what transpired had to so that He could make everyone in heaven understand the consequences of Sin and what terrible things it could cause. This understanding further strengthens the resolve of every angel and human in heaven to despise sin even more (plus heaven's own natural temptation free environment), further removing the need for a Divine Drama Part 2. When all is considered, God's wisdom rules best.

In fact, go to youtube and watch the full movie of this trailer:
[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47wXWcdRlOw[/flash]
It's a very illustrious realization of that age.

My point is this. The devil had not known anywhere else other than Heaven yet he decided to rebel. Now think of someone who only got in due to the technicality of converting shortly before his death row execution. This person knows what it is to kill or perform whatever crime it is that he wants to perform. Now if there is free will in heaven, what stops this person from continuing his previous line of action of killing and raping?

The answer:
None of my business and none of yours. I intend to make heaven and I intend to bring as many as possible along. If this is your rationale for avoiding heaven, to each his own boss.

^^ dude, All angels have free will.
It's quite simple.
Devil dude looked in the mirror for centuries adoring his oiled biceps and glistening 12 pack.
Everyone told him what nice biceps, pecs and packs he had in casual conversation.
He finally decided he was hot enough to rule everything and figured he'd give it a shot.

end of story. Cheesy

should we expect more angels to rebel?

In my very humble view, it is a case of endless drama, trying to sustain the story at the expense of its substance. Sin is a creation, thus must have been begat by the only Creator (God), if not it would not exist!

Islam has more philosophical content than Christianity.

So, we are back to the initial question; How did Lucifer managed to sin in heaven right under God's nose, then? What is that thing that made Lucifer really really wanted to sin in an overwhelming manner. How did such a thing get into heaven while God's "glory" is emanating everywhere?

2buff:
Sinning in heaven is pretty much impossible as you have the glory of God emanating everywhere, illuminating, pure, and love.
for something to sin in that environment, it must have weally weally weally wanted to in an overwhelming manner.

I bet 2buff is probably obsessed with biceps and 6 packs.

just image if someone is over his own head because was being told that he is good looking? is this enough to make anyone loose control in heaven, especially where everyone is good looking?

even here on earth, Joseph son of Jacob was known to be very handsome. yet he avoided getting into sexual impropriety. he went to jail instead.

can any created being thinks he can overcome God? only people who have false knowledge can propose such a concept.


a person who fell from grace, why did he fall, except as a result of sin. sin is violation of the law of God in this case.

whatever law that satan violated [i actually know the law from reading the Quran; Surah Baqarah for sure [around verses 40 to 50], surah Araf, and many others [Surah Kahf], he became a sinner right at the moment when he committed the violation. hence, he sinned, just as Adam and Eve did when they approached the tree, violating the command. the difference was that Adam and Eve offered sincere repentance, which was accepted from them, erasing the violation or sin from their records.

But satan refused to repent, bent on swaying the children of Adam and Eve away from the path of pure obedience.

you see why there is no need to have a man die for you, because there is no original sin and you can actually approach your Creator without installing a middle man like the aborishas do.

a poor analogy is the handbook passed on to the employees by shift manager. in it, the chairman says if any employee has a need for help, he or she should approach him directly because his office door is always open, so id his telephone line.

if after reading this from the handbook, an employee who goes to the shift manager or even the manager of another shift, seeking help that he should seek from the chairman will actually be scolded for not following instruction, or claiming by his action that the Chairman is unapproachable and probably mean spirited.

You are merely weaving and dodging, as usual. Your peaceful town metaphor is hardly appropriate here because we are not talking about just any peaceful town. What we are talking about here is HEAVEN. A place in which there could only exist nothing else but a perpetual state of peace, which in turns means that nothing can disturb that peace. Which brings us back to the ground zero of this discussion; What made Lucifer disturb the peace in heaven when that was supposed to have been impossible? Please, bring me up to speed real quick, will ya, and quit beating around the bush.

e36991:

@Jenwitemi

Not you too harping that a place is supposedly meant to be free of sin

The proverbial peaceful town ceases to be peaceful the moment someone breaks the peace

There is this yooba proverb that says:

"Ti oogun eni, ba dani loju, aa nfi gbari"

literally means

God let's the chips fall where they may because He knows He can hack and handle them.

Satan is/was not excepted from this

Someone needs to bring you up to speed . . .

Have you not read or heard that SIN and DEATH will be no more?

By the way, that is emphatic.

What! Why? How? When? I sense you asking or scratching your head 

[Quote]« #40 on: Today at 05:07:30 AM »

Quote from: 2buff on Yesterday at 08:28:56 PM
Look at it this way. . .

You have 2 puppies. One is robotic/mechanical and only programed to love you. The other is a real-live breathing dog who chooses to love you.
Which love would you prefer? The mechanical programmed dog that never really had a choice? (slavery) or the free-minded dog who chooses to love you on it's own?
I was going to use a real vs robotic woman before for this example. . . but then you never know a man's mindset these days Cheesy

^^^An interesting analogy that calls to mind the film Artificial Intelligence in which the character of Monica Swinton must choose between David (the artificial child programmed to love her) and Martin (her biological son).

@OP: you have been provided enough answers to your questions but as men everywhere do, you will seek rationalizations for rejecting God.[/Quote]using tinsil town [make belief] to support reality does not provide any answer to the question. hence, the above is so lame that is limps. so dry of truth that it crumples.

a real dog if not fed will grawl as a means telling its master, if i starve, you can expect me to bite you. i need food man, otherwise i may die. but in the main time, my love can become a think i will not show you because it takes food to wag my tail and lick your cheek.

the robotic dog is different. have power, i show my love because thats what you program me for. i dont get tired. i dont need you to feed me and there is no cleaning up after me. you dont even have to walk me. when you need me, i am there as long you command me with power supply.


Angels are robotic. thats why none of them fell.

Satan is a jinn. like man, jinn has free will capability. reward for obedience of these two free will capable being is paradise.

cultey:

This is a funny but true illustration by my pastor.

Satan stared into the mirror for too long,

And pride came in.

He saw the praise and glory that was being ascribed to God,

And wanted it for himself.

Remember, freewill also played a part!

Who created 'freewill'? Who's responsible for the way it's used?

Better question; "Why create freewill in heaven when it had the potential of causing mutiny amongst the angels against God? Was God playing heaven roulettte with fate or what? The whole story of Lucifer mutiny is just crap to say the least. It can only convince retards, i am sorry to say.

Pukkah:

Who created 'freewill'? Who's responsible for the way it's used?

Jenwitemi:

Better question; "Why create freewill in heaven when it had the potential of causing mutiny amongst the angels against God? Was God playing heaven roulettte with fate or what? The whole story of Lucifer mutiny is just crap to say the least. It can only convince retards, i am sorry to say.

Sincerely speaking, there are more questions than answers on that story. And it is funny that religionists (especially Christians and Muslims), on realizing this conjecture, always fail to admit it and would rather weave more intriguing stories to escape from the maze.

Sweetnecta:

using tinsil town [make belief] to support reality does not provide any answer to the question. hence, the above is so lame that is limps. so dry of truth that it crumples.

a real dog if not fed will grawl as a means telling its master, if i starve, you can expect me to bite you. i need food man, otherwise i may die. but in the main time, my love can become a think i will not show you because it takes food to wag my tail and lick your cheek.

the robotic dog is different. have power, i show my love because thats what you program me for. i dont get tired. i dont need you to feed me and there is no cleaning up after me. you dont even have to walk me. when you need me, i am there as long you command me with power supply.


Angels are robotic. thats why none of them fell.

Satan is a jinn. like man, jinn has free will capability. reward for obedience of these two free will capable being is paradise.

1)All you have to do is look around and you will see that indeed, your creator is feeding you. Just don't expect a phantom spoon to manifest in your mouth with food in it.
You should see how the folks in hell live compared to you.

2) "Angels are robotic. thats why none of them fell."= umm, dude, 1/3 of all the angels in heaven fell 

3) Look, I would tell you to go read the bible properly but I know you won't because you're only interested in finding things from it to quarel about. So here, watch a particular movie on youtube. The trailer is below:

[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47wXWcdRlOw[/flash]

Help. I'm confused. According to the scriptures in Genesis, at what point did Satan disobey God and was thrown down to earth? I can't seem to fiind it anywhere.

Was it before the first day, or was it after Adam and Eve had been created?

And on what day was Satan and all the other angels created?

mantraa:

Help. I'm confused. According to the scriptures in Genesis, at what point did Satan disobey God and was thrown down to earth? I can't seem to fiind it anywhere.

Was it before the first day, or was it after Adam and Eve had been created?

And on what day was Satan and all the other angels created?

"at what point did Satan disobey God and was thrown down to earth?" - All you need to know while on earth is that it happened prior to the serpent tempting Eve.

"And on what day was Satan and all the other angels created? " - None of your business right now. You have enough on your plate as it is. Focus on making heaven first so you can ask the folks when you get there.

From what i saw in my old bible, it was not the devil that tempted Eve but a smart snake, the smartest animal in the Garden! (reminds me of tortoise folktales). God eventually punished the snake for it not the devil.
Again why is an omnipotent master struggling with a rival?

^^ Because this omnipotent master is not a tyrant. He gives his subjects choices. That also means some subjects will reject him and choose to follow the way of the devil.
Look God could have destroyed Satan the very moment he started stuff, but he allowed this "age" to happen so that all of creation, human, angel and otherwise, can see the result of sin and the inevitable painful end of the devil, the purveyor of sin.

As to the snake, the bible says "Offenses will surely come, but woe be to those by whom the offenses come". Hence, it's curse.

^^and then punish them for it? How is different from robotizing them? The use of punishment as positive reinforcement towards a desired sphere of behaviour.

So by your logic, or lack thereof, there should be no punishment to crimes and atrocities?

I'd hate to live under your ideal government then.

2buff:


Look God could have destroyed Satan the very moment he started stuff, but he allowed this "age" to happen so that all of creation, human, angel and otherwise, can see the result of sin and the inevitable painful end of the devil, the purveyor of sin.

Would all this have been necessary if there was no creation by God? Did God know that men would sin before creating them? If yes, so why punish them for what they have no 'choice' but to do? Didn't God know that the snake or the devil or whatever would mislead Adam? So why punish Adam?

2buff:

^^ Because this omnipotent master is not a tyrant. He gives his subjects choices. That also means some subjects will reject him and choose to follow the way of the devil.

And this is the crux of the matter. Who is in control at the time that His subject is making a choice? Is it the subject? If yes, does that mean God is not in control of certain/some moments? Where does 'thought' or 'thinking' enter a subject from?

Who is the creator of the source of thought? Do men really and indeed have free will? Can you really choose outside of God's plan?

^^ I don't quite get your argument.
So by your logic also, or lack thereof, God is the one that takes control of your faculties when you are presented with a choice and He is the one that takes over your body and makes you to go and do evil things?

2buff:

^^ I don't quite get your argument.
So by your logic also, or lack thereof, God is the one that takes control of your faculties when you are presented with a choice and He is the one that takes over your body and makes you to go and do evil things?

Please choose one to enable me respond.

^^ choose whichever drives your point further.