@ Cooger

" The Tithes belong to the welfare of the pastor and the Church"


Says who?



By the way, the ability to conjure insults does not make you cool or gives you an articulated leverage in debates.


It only makes you sound very immature.

Pastors who teach and collect the tithe show lack of faith that God will take care of His Church. They put their faith in man rather than God.

The pastor will say give your tenth and put your trust in God that He will provide your needs. You need to tell the pastor to stop asking for money, and for him to put his trust in God that God will provide for his needs.

In the United States, tithing is a very hot topic. Many pastors have stopped teaching this false doctrine, and many ministers have left their church because of this false teaching. I have personally met with several pastors to discuss this topic. One, who has a Ph.D. in theology, told me that he knew tithing is not for Christians, BUT he said he has to make his congregation believe that it is required as he is afraid that they wouldn't give enough to keep the doors open. Most of the others STOPPED teaching tithing after they did their own research.

NO CHRISTIAN CHURCH taught anyone to tithe on their income until the 1800s.

The New Testament teaches generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart, according to our means. For some, $1 might be a sacrifice, while for others, even giving 50% of their income might not induce a sacrifice. In the Old Testament, ONLY the farmers tithed, and it was equal percentage (a tenth). The New Testament teaches the principle of equal sacrifice instead of equal percentage. Equal sacrifice is much harder to achieve, if not impossible, than giving ten percent.

coogar:

do not think you are entitled to a lexus jeep from the tithes because your pastor drives one from the tithes.

-sighs-

With all the tithes which are being collected every sunday week, Nigeria has a nation has not even climbed on the first level of development.

So I disagree with anyone who says that paying tithes will help Nigeria to develop.

No matter how much we debate this topic on tithing, without holiness from a pure heart and following peace with all men, our tithes and offering are just wastage to God.

Let each of us search our hearts and stop all the talk about who is paying or not paying tithes. At least it is not a prerequiste for us to enter heaven.

I go by that famous verse in John 3.16: "For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He (even) gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life." - Amplified Bible.

The most important thing that God wants from us is our acceptance and believing on Jesus Christ, His son.

With regards to giving, let us all do it joyfully, as we have proposed in our hearts, for our God loves a cheerful giver.

[quo

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you make sence

dare2think:

@ Cooger

" The Tithes belong to the welfare of the pastor and the Church"

Says who?

so who is responsible for the welfare of your church and your pastor who does full-time? huh?
then in africa especially nigeria where the issue of "gifts" is a bit ambiguous - how do you know the pastor's fleet of cars were not bought by one of the members of the church? why is it that the moment nigerians see someone doing well - the person must be committing one crime or the other?

By the way, the ability to conjure insults does not make you cool or gives you an articulated leverage in debates.

It only makes you sound very immature.

forgive my manners but i have got a zero tolerance for supposed nigeria's future leaders sounding like hilly-billies in a forum.

coogar:

and i think you are the ignoramus with the poorest comprehension skill on this planet. . . . .
it's one thing not to tithe - as a result of not having or not even interested in going to church. . . . .it's another thing to come on a forum and start complaining. there's a universe of difference between the 2 categories but i know your comprehension skill is so poor to grasp this.
that only 6% of american christians pay their tithes do not mean the other 94% complain like rhesus monkeys - something you are obviously doing here. a pastor leaves his job full-time to teach you the morals and the value of life and you think it should be free services?

and the moronic link you posted is just a collection of all articles related to tithing. i have not seen where anyone has accused any pastor of stealing church funds to enrich himself like you are doing on these pages.
these days, i always take my time to debate with intellectuals. . . .not touts with poor comprehension skill who cannot discern the simple difference between not tithing and moaning like a slave about pastors who cruise chelsea tractors.

please shut up with your bigotry nonsense.

evidently? you are an auditor and you looked into your pastor's account to notice the misappropriation of funds? the tithes belong to the welfare of the pastor and the church. do not think you are entitled to a lexus jeep from the tithes because your pastor drives one from the tithes.

Smart man,

I understood your point perfectly. If Americans do not pay tithes, it does not occur to you one bit that some of them would be out of an unwillingness to do so – not because they’re poor. Isn’t it silly to assume that American Christians refuse to tithe because they are poor, when the vast majority of them are richer than Nigerian Christians including jokes like you that come here to make empty noises.

Evidently, you know why American christians do not tithe, even though you probably have not met any. Have you ever visited or lived in the US or been to any US church? If you are not as idiotic as you sound, you’d check through the net and see Americans complain a lot about tithing. And if you step into some American churches, you’d hear the pastors addressing some of these complaints. But typical Nigerian that you are, you can claim to be an intellectual with nothing to back it up. Barely literate intellectual!

And I never complained about tithing. I only corrected your inaccurate assertion.

dare2think:

@ Cooger

" The Tithes belong to the welfare of the pastor and the Church"


Says who?



By the way, the ability to conjure insults does not make you cool or gives you an articulated leverage in debates.


It only makes you sound very immature.

Sure, it makes him sound and appear immature and foolish. The higher you get in life, the more sensitive and considerate you're likely to be to your perceived juniors or inferiors. With his attitude, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't pass a test to be hired as my admin assistant.

To those who believe that tithes is 10% of income and those who does not,
Please can you explain this verse in the Bible Hebrew 7:9 -And, if I may use the expression, through Abraham even the Levi who receives tithes has paid tithes.

garyarnold:

Pastors who teach and collect the tithe show lack of faith that God will take care of His Church. They put their faith in man rather than God.

The pastor will say give your tenth and put your trust in God that He will provide your needs. You need to tell the pastor to stop asking for money, and for him to put his trust in God that God will provide for his needs.

In the United States, tithing is a very hot topic. Many pastors have stopped teaching this false doctrine, and many ministers have left their church because of this false teaching. I have personally met with several pastors to discuss this topic. One, who has a Ph.D. in theology, told me that he knew tithing is not for Christians, BUT he said he has to make his congregation believe that it is required as he is afraid that they wouldn't give enough to keep the doors open. Most of the others STOPPED teaching tithing after they did their own research.

NO CHRISTIAN CHURCH taught anyone to tithe on their income until the 1800s.

The New Testament teaches generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart, according to our means. For some, $1 might be a sacrifice, while for others, even giving 50% of their income might not induce a sacrifice. In the Old Testament, ONLY the farmers tithed, and it was equal percentage (a tenth). The New Testament teaches the principle of equal sacrifice instead of equal percentage. Equal sacrifice is much harder to achieve, if not impossible, than giving ten percent.

And some guy that clearly does not know his left from his right was here trying to make another false claim that American christians do not complain about tithing. Time is past when people can make foolish claims and think they'll stand. We're in the information age now.

nlMediator:

Smart man,
I understood your point perfectly. If Americans do not pay tithes, it does not occur to you one bit that some of them would be out of an unwillingness to do so – not because they’re poor. Isn’t it silly to assume that American Christians refuse to tithe because they are poor, when the vast majority of them are richer than Nigerian Christians including jokes like you that come here to make empty noises.

you are a tool and i have my reasons for saying so.
firstly, the word poor is relative - a poor man in america can still afford the basic necessities of life and he is almost equivalent to the middle-class in nigeria. i don't see how you think the word poor in america and nigeria means the same thing in terms of what they can both afford.
i detest half-witted crooks but yours is more detestable because you should know better.

Evidently, you know why American christians do not tithe, even though you probably have not met any. Have you ever visited or lived in the US or been to any US church? If you are not as idiotic as you sound, you’d check through the net and see Americans complain a lot about tithing. And if you step into some American churches, you’d hear the pastors addressing some of these complaints. But typical Nigerian that you are, you can claim to be an intellectual with nothing to back it up. Barely literate intellectual!

the tortuous knots of logic this social reprobate ties himself up in. . . . .i have visited and stayed in america several times. to a poverty-stricken child like yourself, america is heaven and only meant for the chosen few. to me, it's just another far end of the world i may or may not visit depending on my mood. you are a tool and a rusty tool if i may add. you have not advanced your point by a jot - just the same series of heresies i have read in your previous comment.

like i have said - not deciding to pay tithe is different to accusing pastors of embezzling without any concrete evidence to back your claims. i will not say there are no dodgy pastors. . . .it's in the bible that many will perform miracles pretentiously but most of them are fake. that is not the issue here. the issue here is. . . . .should christians be complaining about tithing by accusing their pastors of stealing?  you have not answered that - all i see is pukery and the nonsense fuckery about america(a country you were lucky to see on dvd when eddy murphy went to america as an african prince).

And I never complained about tithing. I only corrected your inaccurate assertion.

you cannot have it both ways. . . . .if you are correcting my assertion, then you are backing the touts on this thread who think paying tithes is evil, irresponsible and a waste of time. your moronic diligence to even go on the net to dig up a pitiful link that only 6% americans pay tithes show how spiritually-corrupt you are. it's not by force. . . .i don't think churches charge gate fees in nigeria. . . .if they bring the offering bag to you, just pass it on - you won't be arrested for it. what i will not have you do is to covet another man's fortunes. if you feel aggrieved, convert your father's living room into a church and collect tithes/offering.

sheeeesh!

coogar:

so who is responsible for the welfare of your church and your pastor who does full-time? huh?
then in africa especially nigeria where the issue of "gifts" is a bit ambiguous - how do you know the pastor's fleet of cars were not bought by one of the members of the church? why is it that the moment nigerians see someone doing well - the person must be committing one crime or the other?

You actually did not answer my question.

While I agree with your statement about the wrong perception attributed to doing well,  you might also add that it is the very same Nigerians that abused their positions of power that causes that attribution.

It is wrong to manipulate the Bible to enrich yourself whilst deceiving others- It is called Fraud.   Tithing is a personal thing and should be left to the individual. But most folks against it here are practically against the "Men of God" that abuses that privilegde

You can choose to keep quiet about the mis-hap going on in Christianity or Religion, but dont expect others to. Also, dont resort to insults or degoratory remarks because  people hold different views to yours. It's a vast world and nobody knows it all (Including "mEN OF gOD"

Corruption is corruption in the house of paliarment or the house of God. Choosing to ignore it does not make you holier either

In the old testament era we had Laborers who earn wages. Not all Jew was a farmer, many work as administrators and even traders. Why didn't the bible instruct them to pay a tithe from their incomes?

Did the new testament church leaders like Paul receive tithe?

Hebrews 7:9 is merely more evidence that Melchizedek was superior to Abraham and the
Mosaic Law and that the Levitical priests, through Abraham, paid tithes to
Melchizedek.

Has nothing to do with tithing today.

Why are men of God more concerned about tithe than the salvation of people's soul?

We should concerntrate more on salvation and leave offerings and tithes alone. They are not a must for making heaven.

The bible says, the right hand shouldn't even know what the other offers unto God. Giving and tithing is a very private and personal thing. Nobody should be coerce into giving or tithing.

coogar:


forgive my manners but i have got a zero tolerance for supposed nigeria's future leaders sounding like hilly-billies in a forum.

I hope you are aware that you too might sound like a "hilli-billy" to someone on this forum.

NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE pays the Biblical tithe today.

Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18:  The First Tithe - a tenth of crops and animals and commanded to take the tithe to the Levites.

Deuteronomy 14:22-27:  The Second Tithe aka The Festival Tithe - a tenth of crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take for the yearly feast.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29:  The Third Tithe aka The Three-Year Tithe aka The Poor Tithe - a tenth of crops, kept at home, and invite the Levites, widows, orphans, stranger to eat.

The ONLY people in the Old Testament that were commanded to tithe were those who INHERITED THE PROMISED LAND WITH EVERYTHING ON IT. They got the land, house, animals, crops, etc. ALL FREE AND CLEAR. No mortgage payment or rent to pay. And THEY were commanded to tithe on the crops and animals and take it to the Levites who INHERITED the tithe INSTEAD OF the promised land with everything on it.  No one else tithed.  Wage earners did not tithe.  Jesus did not tithe as a carpenter.  Paul did not tithe as a tent maker.  Peter did not tithe as a fisherman.

Until one understands that the Biblical tithe always came from God's miracles (ASSETS - crops and animals) and NEVER from man's labor, one will never understand what the tithe was all about.

dare2think:

You actually did not answer my question.
While I agree with your statement about the wrong perception attributed to doing well,  you might also add that it is the very same Nigerians that abused their positions of power that causes that attribution.

does that then make it right? shouldn't each case be judged individually in this modern era of free education for all? so because an igbo man killed and ate innocent people in the time past means all igbo men should be considered cannibals?

It is wrong to manipulate the Bible to enrich yourself whilst deceiving others- It is called Fraud.   Tithing is a personal thing and should be left to the individual. But most folks against it here are practicalyl against the "Men of God" that abuses that privilegde

i agree it is wrong but it's not your battle to fight. let the pastors face their judgement at the final hour. you have paid your tithes, whatever happens to it shouldn't be your concern. you have made up your mind to give it out - without expecting it back in your pocket. where's the morality in doubting what pastors do with the tithes paid to them?

You can choose to keep quiet about the mis-hap going on in Christianity or Religion, but dont expect others to. Also, dont resort to insults or degoratory remarks because  people hold different views to yours. It's a vast world and nobody knows it all (Including "mEN OF gOD"

i don't insult people for the fun of it. . . . .if i detect any masked insult behind anyone's comment, i have the right to respond in any way i feel.
self defence is a right.

Corrution is corruption wether is in the house of paliarment or the house of God. Choosing to ignore it does not make you holier either

choosing to ignore it can never make me holier. choosing to pursue it is actually worse especially when you have nothing but a baseless allegation.
people pay tithes to expand the church, develop it, beautify it, etc. people pay tithes to give to the less-privileged members of the church., educate them and make their lives happy. as a christian, this is what you should look for. is your church growing, are the needy taken care of? if the church satisfies all these requirements - i do not see how the pastor of that church should be criticised.

dare2think:

I hope you are aware that you too might sound like a "hilli-billy" to someone on this forum.

well. . . . .if i do sound that way - let the person who feels so come out and say it to me. . . .otherwise he/she should shut up. . . . . .forever!

^^^^^^

I agree with the majority of your reply.

But why is it not my battle to fight?

Indirectly, you are saying look the other way.

Believe me,  that is what fraudulent people thrive on.  I have every right to voice my opinion and you have every right to oppose it.

So, whose battle is it?  God wont come down to right any wrong.  Was it God that halted Hitler himself, or did people fight and defeat him. (Basically, what am saying is that you can't sit down and hope for God to fight your battles without making an effort) . In developed countries, they did things themsleves and brought about their own development, and did not wait for God. That does not say God did not give them the intelligence. (My opinion)

@garyarnold,Thank you for your explanation

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

For correction—For correcting false notions and mistaken views.

Mark 7:13 (NIV)
13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
2 Timothy 4:4 (NIV)
4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Deuteronomy 4:2 (NIV)
2Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.

2 Peter 2:1, 3 (NIV)
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you.
3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up.

Interesting many pastors now used the word 'if you don't pay your tithe it will be tight for you' hmm

Hmmm,  Interesting debate which clearly shows that different people interpret scripture to suit their understanding. Well as for me I know which scripture I believe and it's certainly not the one that wants me to part with 10% of my hard earned money to some bloke to live a luxurious lifestyle. I would rather give it to people in dire need like we have in our dear country Nigeria or even those desperate people in drought-stricken parts of East Africa. If anyone wants to live a flamboyant lifestyle which unfortunately has become the case these days with church money then they need to go out and work like the rest of us.

http://apenandaheart..com/

dare2think:

^^^^^^
I agree with the majority of your reply.
But why is it not my battle to fight?

it's not your battle because you don't know for sure the money is mismanaged
it's not your battle because you are not even entitled to a penny out of it.
it's not your battle because the scriptures even said thou shall not judge or put a false allegation against a fellow brethren
and so on and forth. . . . .don't wanna start preaching here.

Indirectly, you are saying look the other way.
Believe me,  that is what fraudulent people thrive on.  I have every right to voice my opinion and you have every right to oppose it.

but this money is no longer yours - you have given it out to the one you believe is the most high. . . .you gave it out to help and support the church in a way to enhance the expansion and the development of that church. if that same church now feels the leader of the church deserves a new automobile, a bigger mansion and a fat salary to boot - who are you to complain?

So, whose battle is it?  God wont come down to right any wrong.  Was it God that halted Hitler himself, or did people fight and defeat him. (Basically, what am saying is that you can't sit down and hope for God to fight your battles without making an effort) . In developed countries, they did things themsleves and brought about their own development, and did not wait for God. That does not say God did not give them the intelligence. (My opinion)

says who? natural order will be restored sooner or later. as a christian, look the other way. work and pray and receive your salvation. let your pastor and the divine father sort themselves out. not your battle, not your war.

This "coogar" dudee is an interesting piece of work it seems, typical Nigerian this and typical Nigerian that, suit your self, I am not even sure i have spent up to three Months total in Nigeria in the last 22 years, but that's not the reason I decided to contribute to this piece.


Your dismissive attitude must really be full of "Christian values", "by their fruit ye shall know them, "?


Fela dealt with these kinds of stuff in "coffin for head of state & suffering and smiling" but you're probably too "young" to appreciate his whole body of work.

You guys use "pre Covenant Abram's" tithe, Malachi, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, etc referenced tithes and can go ahead and "pay" all you want "to receive all the blessings" (investment banking to some) but some of us know our God doesn't live in Temples made with human hands and that "where two or three are gathered in his name, he is there"

Let me just educate you about the German "religious tax", they only deduct that from you if you declared Christianity as your religion, and I remember folks claiming "frei denker" so as to escape that because they believe the Church take and take but that's a story for another forum,

The so called "successful Pastors" in Nigeria today would qualify for the rich man Christ told to sell all his belongings and give to the poor to follow him, Faith without works is DEAD, Nigerians should all be "prosperous" now with all those "claim it" abracadabra shows, God gave us a SIMPLE way to worship him--with all out heart and with all our SOUL,


You can't pay your way into Heaven(at least not the one I know of)

Shalom.

coogar:

it's not your battle because you don't know for sure the money is mismanaged

What if I notice things are not adding up I.e--- Jets, mansions, luxury cars--- whilst my fellow brethrens are still wallowing in Poverty?

coogar:

it's not your battle because you are not even entitled to a penny out of it.

Really, are you serious. I am not entitled to a penny out of my contributions? who is entitled to it?  I support the growth of the church but not entitled to the benfits procured from my contrbutions. Dude, its my money its my battle, it's my friend's money its my battle, it's my Sibling's money it's my battle.

coogar:


it's not your battle because the scriptures even said thou shall not judge or put a false allegation against a fellow brethren

The same sciptures said to watch out for wolves in sheep clothing. Christ, the one in whom we are to follow his ways never mentioned giving your 10% earnings to anyone. did he?

coogar:

but this money is no longer yours - you have given it out to the one you believe is the most high. . . .you gave it out to help and support the church in a way to enhance the expansion and the development of that church. if that same church now feels the leader of the church deserves a new automobile, a bigger mansion and a fat salary to boot - who are you to complain?

Who am I to complain?

I am an Individual with a voice and one that understands that I have a right to my Opinion

I am one who picks up the bible myself and get my own understand of it's meaning and not someone else's agenda.

I am one that decided to read Deut 14: 22 to 29 myself and understands how God indicated  how tithing should be done, and not listen to a Greedy person feeding on the ignorance of innocent people.

I am an Individual with my own mind. That's who I am.

ogajim:


You can't pay your way into Heaven(at least not the one I know of)

Shalom.

Neither can you pay God for Blessings, (atleast not the God I know of),

xcept ofcourse he(God) is a "Man of God" who thrives on the money to give out blessings.

ogajim:

This "coogar" dudee is an interesting piece of work it seems, typical Nigerian this and typical Nigerian  that, suit your self, I am not even sure i have spent up to three Months total in Nigeria in the last 22 years, but that's not the reason I decided to contribute to this piece.

i don't care if you have never stepped foot in nigeria before. . . .it does not add a shred of intelligence to yourself. there are illiterates in that america you see as heaven. illiterates who cannot write or think.

Your dismissive attitude must really be full of "Christian values", "by their fruit ye shall know them, "?
Fela dealt with these kinds of stuff in "coffin for head of state & suffering and smiling" but you're probably too "young" to appreciate his whole body of work.

i have not claimed anywhere i am a staunch christian or whatever you may call it.
i am a moralist! i am a disciple of doing what is right. . . .i don't have to be a christian or a staunch islamic student to appreciate morality.
so you and fela can feck off to where the sun don't shine.

You guys use "pre Covenant Abram's" tithe, Malachi, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, etc referenced tithes and can go ahead and "pay" all you want "to receive all the blessings" (investment banking to some) but some of us know our God doesn't live in Temples made with human hands and that "where two or three are gathered in his name, he is there"

so why did christ mention it when he was criticizing the pharisees for their hypocrisy?

Let me just educate you about the German "religious tax", they only deduct that from you if you declared Christianity as your religion, and I remember folks claiming "frei denker" so as to escape that because they believe the Church take and take but that's a story for another forum,

but this religious tax fund the churches - so why would the church then take more from the congregation when there's an arrangement in place to tax all protestants and catholics? if nigeria have such in place, no pastor will collect offering/tithes in the church. compare like for like.

The so called "successful Pastors" in Nigeria today would qualify for the rich man Christ told to sell all his belongings and give to the poor to follow him, Faith without works is DEAD, Nigerians should all be "prosperous" now with all those "claim it" abracadabra shows, God gave us a SIMPLE way to worship him--with all out heart and with all our SOUL,

and who are you to judge them? who ordained you to judge them?
are you judging them because you were called to judge them by the divine one or you just want to make noise to be noticed?

You can't pay your way into Heaven(at least not the one I know of)

Shalom.

of course, no one can pay his way into heaven but don't fight someone else's battle.
fight your own battle. leave church embezzlers to their works. they shall surely reap what they have sowed.

dare2think:

Who am I to complain?

I am an Individual with a voice and one that understands that I have a right to my Opinion

I am one who picks up the bible myself and get my own understand of it's meaning and not someone else's agenda.

I am one that decided to read Deut 14: 22 to 29 myself and understands how God indicated  how tithing should be done, and not listen to a Greedy person feeding on the ignorance of innocent people.

I am an Individual with my own mind. That's who I am.

so you are complaining without any credible evidence or statement of account saying the funds have been mismanaged?
is this how it should be? are you an auditor? an accountant?
perhaps you have a crystal ball and you know for sure pastor xxxxx has been stealing people's tithes to fund his own lavish lifestyle. . . .

Nija4Life:

Hmmm,  Interesting debate which clearly shows that different people interpret scripture to suit their understanding. Well as for me I know which scripture I believe and it's certainly not the one that wants me to part with 10% of my hard earned money to some bloke to live a luxurious lifestyle. I would rather give it to people in dire need like we have in our dear country Nigeria or even those desperate people in drought-stricken parts of East Africa. If anyone wants to live a flamboyant lifestyle which unfortunately has become the case these days with church money then they need to go out and work like the rest of us.

http://apenandaheart..com/

Sharp guy  i don't know why many preach this tithe issue as if their life depends on it. Bottomline is your tithe cannot save you and its either you're saved or not, I'm very sure you can't go to hell just for not paying your tithe.

Cest fini, case closed

@ cooger
Perhaps, you have a crystal ball to know they are not stealing

tunnytox:

Sharp guy  i don't know why many preach this tithe issue as if their life depends on it. Bottomline is your tithe cannot save you and its either you're saved or not, I'm very sure you can't go to hell just for not paying your tithe.

Cest fini, case closed

Actually some peope feel their lives depend on it. After constant bashing by the "Man Of God" on the implications of not paying it they feel there is no hope besides it. (Some even go as far to say that you are robbing God if you dont pay it).

Pls, when did God start depending on our Finances.

Its an individual thing, but it is fraudulent if the message is being manipulated for greed.