Radoillo II:

See my problem with this classification:

Who is making the classification? Are they basing their studies purely on linguistics, or are they influenced by factors like group identity and geopolitical factors?

bigfrancis21: Radoillo II, kedu ife melu account gi nke ozo - Radoillo?

Pharoh:

The classification is made by researchers and competent organizations that are regarded as competent authorities to do so. The igbo proper thing came about the whole union, central and standard igbo idea. If you want a break down of the igbo proper into their constituent ethnic group identity and language then i can give you the link of one igbo researcher that made it possible. Most organization do not see a need of that because most igboid groups in the south east already adopted igbo as their ethnicity and igbo as their language.

There is nothing like one igbo people speaking one igbo language and dialects spread all over the place. The igboid term is used to group similar languages and the igbo term is used to group ethnicities with similarities between them. There is absolutely no point to disturb these ethnic groups of being igbo as people should go about their daily lives with their ethnic identity and language. The German generic term is made up of people with different ethnicities and languages but no one is disturbing all of them to adopt one name and language as they are all separated in their own countries.

So igbos of the south east should leave the other ethnic groups to be whatever they want to be because it absolutely makes no sense to ask someone to drop his or her ethnic identity or language and adopt a generic igbo term and created igbo language.

Radoillo II:

Nna, munwa amaro. I typed in my password one morning and it was rejected.

And I can no longer access this site with a PC. Each time I try, I get a message that this site is not safe, and my system automatically logs me out. Phone ka m na e-use now.

Pharoh:

The classification is made by researchers and competent organizations that are regarded as competent authorities to do so. The igbo proper thing came about the whole union, central and standard igbo idea. If you want a break down of the igbo proper into their constituent ethnic group identity and language then i can give you the link of one igbo researcher that made it possible. Most organization do not see a need of that because most igboid groups in the south east already adopted igbo as their ethnicity and igbo as their language.

There is nothing like one igbo people speaking one igbo language and dialects spread all over the place. The igboid term is used to group similar languages and the igbo term is used to group ethnicities with similarities between them. There is absolutely no point to disturb these ethnic groups of being igbo as people should go about their daily lives with their ethnic identity and language. The German generic term is made up of people with different ethnicities and languages but no one is disturbing all of them to adopt one name and language as they are all separated in their own countries.

So igbos of the south east should leave the other ethnic groups to be whatever they want to be because it absolutely makes no sense to ask someone to drop his or her ethnic identity or language and adopt a generic igbo term and created igbo language.

coolest01: calm down. Im from akoko edo...ojah is the name of my village,close to ososo.people that know that area of edo state will know that akoko edo people although edo state by origin have close ties with the akoko people from ondo state(yoruba). We the akoko edo people especially from ojah have a different language entirely differnt from the benin or the yoruba. We even borrowed more words from the yorubas than from other edo tribes. Hence,we are very capable of speaking yoruba fluently

tonychristopher:


NO BODY HAS TOL THEM NOT TO BE CLANISH BUT THERE ARE IGBOS OF OTHER PLACES LIKE ONICHA UGBO,ALONA,OSHIMILIS ASABA,ETCHE, NDONI ETC THAT AGREE THAT THEY ARE IGBO...WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT THESE ?

Pharoh:

It has always been a free world for us unlike you guys so you will never see me discussing about other people except citing examples to present my case. I don't even argue with any anioma person that says he is igbo as it is a live free and let me live world for us. It is never a do or die affair so there is absolutely nothing i will do about it. A time will come in the future where the issue will be settled once and for all so i am not loosing sweat about that but i definitely know the majority sentiment in my ethnic space. Anyone is totally free to be igbo and anyone is totally free not to be igbo, if this choice is a basis for enmity then i can boldly say you definitely are not civilized and socially evolved. If this choice is not a basis for enmity then you will not be loosing sleep about peoples identity and language because that does not affect every possible cooperation that can exist between the two groups. No ukwuani man regards you guys as enemies despite our stand for ethnic determination but it is the opposite for you guys here and it very troubling to say the least.

What i am definitely sure of is that you can form your igbo only country but if the structure and system you eventually implement is not working then these groups that shout igbo will start shouting that they want to break away so don't shout for joy yet. This is the same reason people were shouting that anambra north has not ruled anambra state before because the whole igbo identity is a ruse fit for selfish political and economic reasons only. If there is a strong ideology behind the igbo identity then you will not be seeing Imo versus anambra thread here on nairaland or abia state deporting or sacking other igbos from the other states in their civil service. So you can continue in your shallow igbo identity that is not rooted on solid grounds but solely for opportunistic reasons only.

Ngbọkwụ:
Shut up for once. Why does anything Igbo choke you?.
If Igbo is not rooted, why do you have people who bear names such as Igbo, Igbokwe, Igboamaka, Igboanugo, OluIgbo etc.
Shut up.

Radoillo II:

There are many areas on which we agree. I don't make it my business how anybody chooses to identify himself. And I don't understand my igbo brothers who exert themselves on this forum over the issue of whether certain south-south groups should ethnically identify as igbo or not. There are south-south people who identify as igbo; there are south-south people who DON'T. We all should be able to live with that.

My problem is only with the linguistic aspect of things, and not ethnic identity. The Austrians , for example, are increasingly viewing themselves as an ethnic group distinct from the Germans. They don't have to reclassify their tongue as Germanoid for that distinction they want to be realizable. Language and ethnicity don't neccessarily have to go together.

I believe the linguistic classification that uses such terms as 'Igboid' fails to take into consideration how diverse "Igbo proper" is. It's like saying Zulu and Xhosa are Nguni proper, and Ndebele and Swazi are Ngunoid. Kay Williamson was one of the earliest linguists to make such a distinction (Igbo-Igboid), and she wasn't objective in her classification. She was influenced in her conclusions by post-1970 political considerations.

Let me try and make myself a little clearer: if you say the Ogbah people of Rivers speak Igboid. Then it means that a monolithic Igbo language has been identified, and the Ogbah only speak a tongue similar to that monolithic Igbo. But monolithic Igbo doesn't exist: Ogbah is as different from Oratta, as Ngwa is different from Nkanu. The linguiststs (who you consider competent) clearly haven't done a neat job here.

Since monolithic Igbo doesn't exist, then Igboid is a superfulous term. We all speak cognate tongues (dialects or languages, call it whichever you like) which I think it is fair to group as 'Igbo'; igbo being as all embracing as 'Nguni' (Zulu, Xhosa etc) or 'Akan'(Asante, Fante) or 'Latin' (French, Spanish etc).

Note that I only disagree with the classification scheme, which honestly shows the linguists' lack of understanding of the language situation in this part of southern Nigeria. People speaking different Igbo languages/dialects may ethnically identify themselves however they like; ethnicity is, after all, often a political issue.

Nowenuse: As for those here who are claiming that there is a language like Edo language, I seriously laugh at them.

Nowenuse:

Kudos bros. U made so much sense with this your explanation, especially with that term 'monolithic igbo'.

Pls let me ask u, all these rivers igbo (ekpeye, ogba, nkwerre) and delta igbo (ndokwa, ika, anochia), do they speak central igbo as a general language amongst themselvs and with the south-eastern igbos? Am not so sure.....
because I know many anioma do not speak central igbo but may only hear.
I guess this has been a major reason 4d distancin and mayb little of politics and regional classification. because I feel they may deem all those south-eastern igbos who use a common central igbo as 'igbo ethnically', and they who are not part of that circle but somewhat close as 'Igboid' or NOT IGBO.
Bcause I seriously doubt that if an ika and Ndokwa man were speakin central igbo with demselvs as a general tongue (to supplement their distinct tongues) just as an Owerri man and an Mbaise man will do (to also supplement their distict tongues), will then start denying their igboness or igbo oneness. I think d problem with some of u is dat u don't understand d power of a common uniting language.

PhysicsQED:

By all means, do pursue whatever your agenda is on this thread, but please, while doing so, don't mislead other people with incorrect information.

The language spoken by the people of the city you said you are residing in (Benin city) is called Edo by those who speak it (the 'Bini' (Edo) people). It's rarely called 'Bini' by those who speak it, and no older 'Bini' (Edo) person with the least bit of familiarity with his/her culture calls it that - at the very most, a younger Bini person abroad might refer to it that way. The rest of those languages (Esan dialects, Etsako dialects, Owan dialects, etc.) in Edo state are sometimes called "Edoid" by academics or laymen who picked up the term from academics, in order to indicate that they are "similar to Edo" (that they have linguistic similarities to the language of the 'Bini'). However, calling non-Bini groups from the old Bendel state that speak closely related languages (to that of the Bini) by the name Edo or calling them Edo people is more of a modern thing - and there definitely isn't anything wrong with doing that - but understand that the frequent use of "Bini" is just to specify a particular group and avoid possible confusion about what group one is referring to - it's not that it's truly a proper term.

Also please don't give people the impression that the 'Bini' actually "prefer to answer Bini." It's not even remotely true that the "Bini," prefer to answer to the name Bini either in reference to the people or the language. The preference is for the word Edo. If Edo is not used - perhaps to avoid confusion about what group is being referred to - then the preference is for terms like "Benin people" or "Benin language." I am yet to see this supposed fondness for the term "Bini" on the part of the Bini manifest itself in real life after growing up in a Bini family and interacting with Bini friends and relatives throughout my life - neither parents nor any other family members used the term. Frequent use of the term Bini by Nigerians (whether Bini or non-Bini) occurs just to indicate a specific group of people and avoid any possible modern day confusion (over whether one is referring to the 'Bini' alone, or to other surrounding groups as well), not because the people themselves (the Edo/'Bini'/Benin people) have some particular fondness for the term. Also, it's just not true that "Within Bini, there r numerous dialects," as you stated in your post. That's also incorrect. As for the rest of what you posted, I don't think that anything you wrote was any sort of new revelation to anybody. As far as I can tell, no one in this thread was claiming that the Edo language ('Bini') is mutually intelligible with any Etsako dialects, Owan dialects, etc. or that there is some sort of "all unifying central Edo dialect" (such as the type Enahoro and others wanted to construct) or any of the other things you referenced in the rest of your post.

Just let the matter rest. Whatever good points you wanted to make in your earlier posts, you've already made, and now you're just veering off into stuff you seem not to have actually looked into.

macof:
All he was saying is that the people in Edo state don't have that Oneness as Igbo and Yoruba of today because there's no unifying language. Every tribe speaks his own language that is difficult for any tribe to understand and there's nothing they can do except speak pidgin.

Nowenuse:

Kudos bros. U made so much sense with this your explanation, especially with that term 'monolithic igbo'.

Pls let me ask u, all these rivers igbo (ekpeye, ogba, nkwerre) and delta igbo (ndokwa, ika, anochia), do they speak central igbo as a general language amongst themselvs and with the south-eastern igbos? Am not so sure.....
because I know many anioma do not speak central igbo but may only hear.
I guess this has been a major reason 4d distancin and mayb little of politics and regional classification. because I feel they may deem all those south-eastern igbos who use a common central igbo as 'igbo ethnically', and they who are not part of that circle but somewhat close as 'Igboid' or NOT IGBO.
Bcause I seriously doubt that if an ika and Ndokwa man were speakin central igbo with demselvs as a general tongue (to supplement their distinct tongues) just as an Owerri man and an Mbaise man will do (to also supplement their distict tongues), will then start denying their igboness or igbo oneness. I think d problem with some of u is dat u don't understand d power of a common uniting language.

Nowenuse: I think som of u r quite mistakin it. In some parts of Edo state, yoruba is used as a general language, especially in Akoko-edo LGA, parts of Edo north senatorial district. These ppl share boundary with Ondo n Kogi state.
In Akoko-edo and Owan east nd west LGAs, many of dem use yoruba as a lingua franca, they are not one tribe but different tribes. Any igarra person u find from Akoko-edo LGA is fluent in his language (igarra) and also yoruba.
What makes a language a second language is d fact dat u can learn it from ur own hometown which r not natives of d language. Just like Platea or Nasarawa ppl, these ppl r not hausas at all, they have their own various languages but use hausa as a general language amongst demselvs, so they grow up learning hausa in their own hometown and home-villages which r not natively hausas. Same tin with som ppl of Edo north. They evn answer yoruba names very very well.
Anybody who hv stayed in these places nd lived with d ppl can attest 2it. Though the yoruba they speak does not affect their own individual native languages and cultures.

macof:

Good point to throw in

I think Akoko people are hybrids of Akure and Bini because there's a blend of both cultures but Akoko speaks Yoruba(Oyo) as a second language not even Bini or Akure.

Wats happening in the North is also something to think about. Most(if not all) Bariba tribe people of the Borgu ethnic group speaks Hausa as a second language and Yoruba(Oyo) as Third. They learn these languages in their own town not in Kano or Lagos.

Same with Nupe

eaxes:
From our own history, the igarra tribe in Akoko edo migrated from Ida which is the ancestral home the igalla tribe. Even our tribal name gives us away igarra is similar †☺ igalla.
Even the igbirra people αvє the same history Ãήϑ they arε̲̣̣̣̥ our nxt of kin.
ψє aint from any akure, edo, yourba bs as U̶̲̥̅̊ αvє stated. Mayb other tribes in akoko edo are but certainly not the Igarra people.

macof:
I know all about the distinctions between Akoko-Edo And Akoko-Ondo but they are sibling tribes u should know that They have same origin
Akoko people are very close to Ondo in everything and just like Ondo and Akure they speak Oyo language as a lingual franca but their indigenous languages are closer to bini than Oyo

PhysicsQED:

I didn't say the Akoko Edo peoples were all one ethnically homogenous "Edoid" group, but the point is the Akoko label in that name isn't to tie them ethnically to the Akoko of Ondo - it's just total confusion about that name (Akoko Edo) to even think that. Also, from some of your previous comments in this thread, I'm not sure you're speaking from extensive knowledge about some of the things you've been saying. After you've made a statement like "there is really nothin like an Edo language" (in an earlier post) even while saying that you're residing in Benin city, where the language is called just that - Edo - how am I supposed to believe that you're interpreting all the things you hear and see around you correctly? Your only really relevant point in this post seemed to be that the Igarra are not speakers of "Edoid" languages natively - yeah, I know that, but I don't recall saying that they were. I don't even recall saying that every single group there (in Akoko Edo) was Edoid speaking. However, the overwhelming majority of those groups in Akoko Edo are speakers of "Edoid" languages - as in, their native languages have significant similarities with the Edo language. The exceptions as far as I can tell being the people of Ayanran, Kakumo, and Igarra. The Igarra don't claim to come from Ondo though they too use Yoruba as a lingua franca, and as for the non-Edoid language speaking towns of Ayanran and Kakumo, those are just two out of all the rest (state boundaries don't exactly mirror linguistic groups - there are also "Edoid" groups outside of Edo and Delta states). Virtually all the rest are speakers of "Edoid" languages natively and if there are groups claiming to be from Ondo (rather than from other places in Edo state, as is usual for people in that area), or claiming to be "mixed" you can list the specific group you're referring to, rather than lumping in the entire area as being "mixed" because of the lingua franca used there. Few (if any) groups in southern Nigeria have never had any segment of their population mix with their neighbors, but that doesn't change what the real ethnic classification of their overall group is.

eaxes:
Absolute rubbish. Saying akoko in edo state Ãήϑ akoko in ondo are sibling tribes is akin to saying people in the state of georgia, USA and people in the country of Georgia are kinsmen.
Akoko edo people are not yoruba in anyway. I am of the Igarra tribe Ãήϑ am not related †☺ people in akoko in ondo. Heck am not even related linguistically, ethnically †☺ other tribes in akoko edo. Although the other tribes in akoko edo are related †☺ each other Ãήϑ understand themselves but not us. ψє arε̲̣̣̣̥ related †☺ the igbirra( our nearest kinsmen) Ãήϑ igalla our ancestral kinsmen

bokohalal: I understand what Macof is trying to say. The problem,however,is that the 'osmosification' process is too far gone to be reversed. Today,the Akokos,Ekitis Ondos and other peoples of eastern Western Nigeria are considered Yorubas. They admit in private,especially when dealing with an Edo, that they are more closely related. A gentleman I met sometime ago claimed Ondo and added 'I am originally Edo. My grandfather was Edo'.

bigfrancis21:

Yea, the Rivers people speak central Igbo among themselves. Its one interesting thing about them. When the Ikwerre man meets an Etche man, they speak central Igbo and not pidgin English like in Edo state.

When you arrive in port-harcourt, you'll think you've arrived in another Igbo town. It is one anyway. You hear Igbo spoken everywhere - on the streets, in the market, etc. Church services are held in Igbo with Igbo songs renting the air. Igbo is deeply rooted and used there such that many kalabari and okirikans speak Igbo fluently. An example is Patience Jonathan from Okirika who speaks Igbo like a native.

Also, Rivers Igbo dialects are very easy to understand. Their Igbo is the same with what you'll hear in other southern Igbo cities of Aba, Owerri. They are 90% the same with central Igbo already. So they might not necessarily feel the need to speak 'central Igbo' when what they are speaking is already 90% central Igbo. When the Ikwerre man, or Etche man, or Ndoni man speaks, you'll understand him clearly. Its just like Onitsha Igbo which is very easy to understand and speak. Because everybody understands Onitsha, the Onitsha man rarely feels the need to speak central Igbo since you'll understand him when he speaks. You should know central Igbo was gotten from all the Igbo dialects and that the vocabulary(words) of central Igbo is mostly from southern Igbo(Imo, Abia, Rivers) while the sentence lexis and structure are from Northern Igbo(Anambra, Delta Igbo, Enugu). Onitsha people and Anambra in general rarely speak central Igbo yet you'll understand them perfectly and they are proud Igbos. The only time Anambra people feel compelled to speak central Igbo is when with people from other states, and despite that they still speak Anambra Igbo(Onitsha precisely) because everybody will still understand it and also, many Igbos love the Anambra Igbo dialect. You'll see here that speaking central Igbo isn't a must or factor that makes a group 'properly Igbo'.

One other thing I'll like you to know is that central Igbo was constructed mostly for speakers of Igbo dialects which are very difficult to understand by other Igbos. Dialects such as Owerri and Mbaise(imo), Arochukwu(Abia), Nsukka and Nkanu(Enugu), Ikwo, Izzi, Ohaozara(Ebonyi), Ohaji/Egbema(Imo and Rivers) Igbo, etc are difficult to understand by an Igbo from other areas. So these people often speak central Igbo to other Igbos and speak their respective dialects within themselves.

I once read a website where it was written that the Ikas use central Igbo or their dialect in public meetings and official matters. I was shocked to read that, coming from a group where many deny being Igbo.

You made mention of Owerri and Mbaise. Owerri and Mbaise Igbo are virtually the same, save for a few word differences and each group converse in Owerri/Mbaise together.

PhysicsQED:

By all means, do pursue whatever your agenda is on this thread, but please, while doing so, don't mislead other people with incorrect information.

The language spoken by the people of the city you said you are residing in (Benin city) is called Edo by those who speak it (the 'Bini' (Edo) people). It's rarely called 'Bini' by those who speak it, and no older 'Bini' (Edo) person with the least bit of familiarity with his/her culture calls it that - at the very most, a younger Bini person abroad might refer to it that way. The rest of those languages (Esan dialects, Etsako dialects, Owan dialects, etc.) in Edo state are sometimes called "Edoid" by academics or laymen who picked up the term from academics, in order to indicate that they are "similar to Edo" (that they have linguistic similarities to the language of the 'Bini'). However, calling non-Bini groups from the old Bendel state that speak closely related languages (to that of the Bini) by the name Edo or calling them Edo people is more of a modern thing - and there definitely isn't anything wrong with doing that - but understand that the frequent use of "Bini" is just to specify a particular group and avoid possible confusion about what group one is referring to - it's not that it's truly a proper term.

Also please don't give people the impression that the 'Bini' actually "prefer to answer Bini." It's not even remotely true that the "Bini," prefer to answer to the name Bini either in reference to the people or the language. The preference is for the word Edo. If Edo is not used - perhaps to avoid confusion about what group is being referred to - then the preference is for terms like "Benin people" or "Benin language." I am yet to see this supposed fondness for the term "Bini" on the part of the Bini manifest itself in real life after growing up in a Bini family and interacting with Bini friends and relatives throughout my life - neither parents nor any other family members used the term. Frequent use of the term Bini by Nigerians (whether Bini or non-Bini) occurs just to indicate a specific group of people and avoid any possible modern day confusion (over whether one is referring to the 'Bini' alone, or to other surrounding groups as well), not because the people themselves (the Edo/'Bini'/Benin people) have some particular fondness for the term. Also, it's just not true that "Within Bini, there r numerous dialects," as you stated in your post. That's also incorrect. As for the rest of what you posted, I don't think that anything you wrote was any sort of new revelation to anybody. As far as I can tell, no one in this thread was claiming that the Edo language ('Bini') is mutually intelligible with any Etsako dialects, Owan dialects, etc. or that there is some sort of "all unifying central Edo dialect" (such as the type Enahoro and others wanted to construct) or any of the other things you referenced in the rest of your post.

Just let the matter rest. Whatever good points you wanted to make in your earlier posts, you've already made, and now you're just veering off into stuff you seem not to have actually looked into.

Nowenuse:

Kudos bros. U made so much sense with this your explanation, especially with that term 'monolithic igbo'.

Pls let me ask u, all these rivers igbo (ekpeye, ogba, nkwerre) and delta igbo (ndokwa, ika, anochia), do they speak central igbo as a general language amongst themselvs and with the south-eastern igbos? Am not so sure.....
because I know many anioma do not speak central igbo but may only hear.
I guess this has been a major reason 4d distancin and mayb little of politics and regional classification. because I feel they may deem all those south-eastern igbos who use a common central igbo as 'igbo ethnically', and they who are not part of that circle but somewhat close as 'Igboid' or NOT IGBO.
Bcause I seriously doubt that if an ika and Ndokwa man were speakin central igbo with demselvs as a general tongue (to supplement their distinct tongues) just as an Owerri man and an Mbaise man will do (to also supplement their distict tongues), will then start denying their igboness or igbo oneness. I think d problem with some of u is dat u don't understand d power of a common uniting language.

eaxes:
Absolute rubbish. Saying akoko in edo state Ãήϑ akoko in ondo are sibling tribes is akin to saying people in the state of georgia, USA and people in the country of Georgia are kinsmen.
Akoko edo people are not yoruba in anyway. I am of the Igarra tribe Ãήϑ am not related †☺ people in akoko in ondo. Heck am not even related linguistically, ethnically †☺ other tribes in akoko edo. Although the other tribes in akoko edo are related †☺ each other Ãήϑ understand themselves but not us. ψє arε̲̣̣̣̥ related †☺ the igbirra( our nearest kinsmen) Ãήϑ igalla our ancestral kinsmen

RadoilloII:


See my problem with this classification:

Ezza-Ikwo-Izi etc are listed as seperate languages, whereas, Abiriba, Nsukka, Ehugbo, Okposi etc, which many people in the urban centres in the southeast hardly understand, are all subsumed under "Igbo proper". If we apply to "Igbo proper" the same principles which we used to seperate Ogbah and Ukwuani from "Igbo proper", we would find that "igbo proper" CAN be further split into as many as two score seperate languages. Which of these two score languages would you then call 'Igbo'? None. Igbo is simply a generic name, an 'umbrella' term, embracing cognate lects spoken east of the Edo speech area.

I personally think 'Igboid' is a misnomer. -oid means 'similar to'. So that 'Igboid' would mean 'similar to Igbo, but not Igbo'. The problem with this is that some of these so called 'Igboid' languages are more intelligible to me than some 'Igbo' dialects.I've never set foot in Ndokwa territory. Yet first time I heard my Obiaruku electrician speak to his brother on the phone, I understood almost everything he said; but I can hardly tell Afikpo dialect from Greek. We once had an Afikpo housegirl, and conversation with her was only possible if we used English.

Yet Afikpo is Igbo proper; and Ukwuani is Igboid.

Who is making the classification? Are they basing their studies purely on linguistics, or are they influenced by factors like group identity and geopolitical factors?