Some Muslim apologists have claimed that Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi was a Muslim scientist that made innumerable discoveries and contributions to science in the 10 and 11 th centuries. I agree with the latter, he was indeed a great scientist but I think its a bit disingenuous that he be considered a Muslim (ie believing in the tenets of the religion). After reviewing some of the this man’s ideas, writings and contributions it is plain to see he was a fierce critic of prophetic religions including Islam. So I would be hard pressed to call him an adherent of the Islamic faith and more inclined to call him a medieval freethinker/rationalist.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Zakariya_al-Razi#On_Religion


Razi wrote three books dealing with religion:

The Prophets' Fraudulent Tricks (مخارق الانبياء)
The Stratagems of Those Who Claim to Be Prophets (حيل المتنبيين)
On the Refutation of Revealed Religions (نقض الادیان).


[b]He offered harsh criticism concerning religions, in particular those religions that claim to have been revealed by prophetic experiences.[17][18][19] Razi asserted that "[God] should not set some individuals over others, and there should be between them neither rivalry nor disagreement which would bring them to perdition."[20] He argued,

On what ground do you deem it necessary that God should single out certain individuals [by giving them prophecy], that he should set them up above other people, that he should appoint them to be the people's guides, and make people dependent upon them?[20]

Concerning the link between violence and religion, Razi expressed that God must have known, considering the many disagreements between different religions, that "there would be a universal disaster and they would perish in the mutual hostilities and fighting. Indeed, many people have perished in this way, as we can see."[20]

He was also critical of the lack of interest among religious adherents in the rational analysis of their beliefs, and the violent reaction which takes its place:

If the people of this religion are asked about the proof for the soundness of their religion, they flare up, get angry and spill the blood of whoever confronts them with this question. They forbid rational speculation, and strive to kill their adversaries. This is why truth became thoroughly silenced and concealed.[20]

Al-Razi believed that common people had originally been duped into belief by religious authority figures and by the status quo. He believed that these authority figures were able to continually deceive the common people "as a result of [religious people] being long accustomed to their religious denomination, as days passed and it became a habit. Because they were deluded by the beards of the goats, who sit in ranks in their councils, straining their throats in recounting lies, senseless myths and "so-and-so told us in the name of so-and-so, "[20][/b]

[b]He believed that the existence of a large variety of religions was, in itself, evidence that they were all man made, saying, "Jesus claimed that he is the son of God, while Moses claimed that He had no son, and Muhammad claimed that he [Jesus] was created like the rest of humanity."[20] and "Mani and Zoroaster contradicted Moses, Jesus and Muhammad regarding the Eternal One, the coming into being of the world, and the reasons for the [existence] of good and evil."[20] In relation to the Hebrew's God asking of sacrifices, he said that "This sounds like the words of the needy rather than of the Laudable Self-sufficient One."[20]

On the Qur'an, Razi said:

You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ,  By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: "Produce something like it"?![20]

From the beginning of the human history, all of those who claimed to be prophets were, in his worst assumption, tortuous and devious and with his best assumption had psychological problems.[17][18][19][/b]

I have been looking for this man profile for a very long time. . .Just got his name wrong. . . .I used to think it was Reza instead of Razi. Thank Divinereal. What a great man he was. . .

AL-RAZI (865-925 C.E.):

Full name- Abu Bakr Muhammad B. Zakariya. P. Kraus and S. Pines, in Encyclopedia of Islam, have mentioned al-Razi as “perhaps the greatest freethinker in the whole of Islam.” Max Meyerhof4 calls him “the greatest physician of the Islamic world and one of the great physicians of all time.” Al-Razi was the native of Rayy (near Tehran ), where he studied mathematics, philosophy, astronomy and literature, and, perhaps, alchemy. Later, he went to Baghdad to study medicine. It may be mentioned that at that time, Baghdad was reputed in the whole world as a great center of learning. Al-Razi is known to have studied and contributed to variety of subjects. His greatest medical work was an enormous encyclopedia, al-Hawi, on which he worked for fifteen years and which was translated into Latin in 1279.

Al-Razi was thoroughly a rationalist thinker. According to Gabrieli, 'he is the greatest rationalist “agnostic” of the Middle Ages, European and Oriental.' The central theme of Al-Razi’s personal philosophy was that no authority was beyond criticism. He challenged tradition and authority in every field to which he turned his attention. Like a true humanist, al-Razi puts boundless faith in human reason and it is reflected in the following excerpt, taken from his book of ethics, The Spiritual Physick:

Reason “is God’s greatest blessing to us….By Reason we are preferred above the irrational beasts,…, By Reason we reach all that raises us up, and sweetens and beautifies our life, and through it we obtain our purpose and desire. For by Reason we have comprehended the manufacture and use of ships, so that we have reached unto distant lands divided from us by the seas; by it we have achieved medicine with its many uses to the body, and all the other arts that yield us profit….by it we have learned the shape of the earth and the sky, the dimension of the sun, moon and other stars, their distances and motions…”

Al-Razi denied the Islamic dogma of creation ex nihilo. For him, the world was created at a finite moment in time, but not out of nothing. Al-Razi believed in the existence of the five eternal principles: creator, soul, matter, time, and space. He had no faith in Quran and the prophets. 'The miracles of the prophets', said Al-Razi, 'are impostures, based on trickery, or the stories regarding them are lies.' According to him, reason is superior to revelation, and salvation is only possible through philosophy. In his political philosophy, Al-Razi believed, one could live in an orderly society without being terrorized, or coerced by religious law.

I have been looking for this man profile for a very long time. . .Just got his name wrong. . . .I used to think it was Reza instead of Razi. Thank Divinereal. What a great man he was. . .

Anytime bro, knowledge is free we just have to seek it. Al-Razi was the man dude, I like his style I won't lie I have learnt and still learning a lot from this Nairaland site sef. Even though our debates can at times get pretty hot and heavy I believe it is dialogue that will make Nigeria a better country. We are meshing/challenging different ideas from all over the world that we all have gained via our different experiences.

this is what wikipedia has to say about what is attributed to al-Razi under religion:

"The neutrality of this section is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved". (October 2010)
"This section's factual accuracy is disputed. Please help to ensure that disputed facts are reliably sourced. See the relevant discussion on the talk page". (October 2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Zakariya_al-Razi#On_Religion

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/may/10/islam-freedom-expression


When Islamic atheism thrived

It's astonishing to read about the freedom of expression afforded to Muslims in the 10th century, in contrast to our own times


Monday 10 May 2010 13.30 BST Article history

Freethinking is perhaps not one of the strongest suits of modern Islam. For one thing, the list of books that have been banned for challenging prevalent religious orthodoxies and sensibilities during the past hundred years is disconcertingly long.

Modern Islamic clerics and scholars in various Muslim countries are often highly selective of which part of the Islamic heritage to emphasise and bring to light. Out of the countless and varied sources from centuries of vigorous debates, commentaries and controversies, they seem to dig out, and revel in, interpretations that are hopelessly conservative or frustratingly and grotesquely at odds with the life of modern Muslims.

It may therefore come as a surprise to many people that there is a long and vibrant intellectual tradition of dissidence and freethinking going back to the Middle Ages. The Islamic thinkers of the early medieval period expressed ideas and engaged in debates that would appear strangely enlightened in comparison with the attitudes and views adopted by modern Islamic scholarship.

This is the basic argument presented by From the History of Atheism in Islam by the renowned Egyptian thinker Abdel-Rahman Badawi. Published in Arabic in 1945, the book was reprinted only once in 1993. It discusses the work of the Islamic philosopher-scientists of the medieval period and the way they upheld reason, freedom of thought and humanist values, while questioning and often refuting some basic Islamic tenets.


[b]Although many of those thinkers, according to Badawi, did not attempt to disprove the existence of God, they lashed out against the notion of prophethood and argued against the privileged position occupied by the Prophet Muhammad and his followers.

Most prominent among those scholars was Abu Bakr al-Razi (865-925 CE) who believed in the supreme importance of reason. He argued that the mind had an innate capacity to distinguish between good and evil, and between what was useful and what was harmful. According to him, the mind did not need any guidance from outside it, and for this reason the presence of prophets was redundant and superfluous.

Al-Razi directed his most vehement attack against the holy books in general, including the Qur'an, because he saw them as illogical and self-contradictory. He also believed that all human beings were equal in their intellectual capacities as they were in all other things. It made no sense therefore that God should single out one individual from among them in order to reveal to him his divine wisdom and assign him the task of guiding other human beings. Furthermore, he found that prophets' pronouncements and stories often contradicted those of other prophets. If their source was divine revelation as is claimed, their views would have been identical. The idea of a divinely-appointed mediator was therefore a myth.

Al-Razi understood the hold of religious belief on society, which he attributed to several factors. Firstly, systems of beliefs spread mainly through the human propensity for imitating and copying others. Secondly, religion's popularity rested on the close alliance between clerics and political rulers. The clerics often used this alliance to impose their own personal beliefs on people by force whenever the power of persuasion failed. Thirdly, the lavish and imposing character of the attire of religious men contributed to the high regard in which they were held by common people. Lastly, with the passage of time religious ideas became so familiar that they turned almost into deep-seated instincts that were no longer questioned.

In examining this chapter of Islamic history, regardless of the validity or otherwise of the views expressed, one cannot help feel amazed at the fact that the Islamic thinkers of the 10th century had the freedom to discuss and publish their "unorthodox" ideas, while the Islamic world now cannot, or will not, deal with any form of intellectual dissent. It might be reasonable to suggest then that the problem of Islam does not lie in inherited texts and traditions, but in interpretation. The Islamic heritage, like its Christian counterpart, is made up of a huge body of commentaries and interpretations that were produced in various periods of history to address problems specific to their age. We need to remember that the Christian scriptures have not changed since the middle ages. It was in the name of these very texts that innumerable so-called heretics were burnt at the stake.[/b]

There is little doubt that Islamic scholars have the task and the responsibility to review tradition and re-emphasise the human values of tolerance and freedom of thought. They do not have to look far for these values. All they are required to do is to reach deep into their own cultural coffers to retrieve the pearls and discard the dregs.

, Freeverbatim, this divinewreck guy can offer no understanding of his in matter, that was why he abadoned ship in.

NB: Following the link on the Guardian web page, it takes to exactly the same wikepedia page, with exactly the same wordings and warnings, implying the low editorial standards of the author of the article and by extension the dubious unintellectual strides of divinewreck, try again divinewreck. atleast she should have warned that she was writing an entire article on doubtful material.

Furthermore we read in the same page

Criticism

Al-Razi's religious and philosophical views were later criticized by Persian Islamic philosophers such as Abu Rayhan Biruni and Avicenna in the early 11th century. Biruni in particular wrote a short Risala treatise dealing with al-Razi, criticizing him for his sympathy with Manichaeism,[21] his Hermetical writings, his religious and philosophical views,[22] for refusing to mathematize physics, and his active opposition to mathematics.[23] Avicenna, who was himself a physician and philosopher, also criticized al-Razi.[24] During a debate with Biruni, Avicenna stated:

    Or from Muhammad ibn Zakariyyab al-Razi, who meddles in metaphysics and exceeds his competence. He should have remained confined to surgery and to urine and stool testing—indeed he exposed himself and showed his ignorance in these matters.[25]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Zakariya_al-Razi#On_Religion

And indeed there is no such thing as Islamic atheism, as atheism remains Islamic, where going thru their references I discovered that all their references pointed only to western sources, unless we read alternate sources one wuld have to accept that there might be considerable sources of bias in them.

Going by what was written in the said page, anybody who says such or write such cannot be considered a Muslim.

I choose to be a conduit of information. I am not really trying to convince people about anything, just sharing info that I find. The truth always finds its way to the top. I will agree that Al-Razi was not a Muslim but a freethinker if he did indeed postulate the earlier quotes on religion.

divinereal:

I choose to be a conduit of information. I am not really trying to convince people about anything, just sharing info that I find. The truth always finds its way to the top. I will agree that Al-Razi was not a Muslim but a freethinker if he did indeed postulate the earlier quotes on religion.

same do others also think of themselves-"conduit of information".

al-Razi held religious views and wrote on islamic subjects and the Quran.i am not well acquainted on him as i have not sit to do some work on him.but that is the least i can tell you.

as a "conduit of information" also,i am only channelling the info i got that the points made to describe al-Razi as a "free thinker" are from doubtful/suspicious source(s).

LagosShia:

same do others also think of themselves-"conduit of information".

al-Razi held religious views and wrote on islamic subjects and the Quran.i am not well acquainted on him as i have not sit to do some work on him.but that is the least i can tell you.

as a "conduit of information" also,i am only channelling the info i got that the points made to describe al-Razi as a "free thinker" are from doubtful/suspicious source(s).

and this is what he "wrote" on the quran - You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: “Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one.” Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. … By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: “Produce something like it”?!

pretty damning no? Muslims lie and lie horribly, what a surprise.

@Davidylan and people who are elated like him: « #9 on: Today at 01:33:53 AM »
[Quote]Quote from: LagosShia on Yesterday at 07:07:21 PM
same do others also think of themselves-"conduit of information". Grin

al-Razi held religious views and wrote on islamic subjects and the Quran.i am not well acquainted on him as i have not sit to do some work on him.but that is the least i can tell you.

as a "conduit of information" also,i am only channelling the info i got that the points made to describe al-Razi as a "free thinker" are from doubtful/suspicious source(s).

and this is what he "wrote" on the quran - You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: “Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one.” Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. … By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: “Produce something like it”?!

pretty damning no? Muslims lie and lie horribly, what a surprise.[/Quote]In Ramadhan of 2001, after 9/11, a Book Titled "Furqan" showed its head in a mosque that I was making my Taraweehi. As usual between the first 2 /2 rakat and the last 2/2 rakat was a small talk. A guy from Guinea Conakry got up and present this hard cover authored by Shoroch the Palestinian Pastor/Evangelist in Texas. As he began he speech, he gave to book to the nearest person and advised it be passed around so that we could all be aware of it.

The moment you open it as he continued his speech, he didn't have to say more than the title before everyone caught on that we are looking at the best work of the who Christian arabs sponsored the best monies around; USA christianity and her European Supporter, trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the muslims. When you read the very first verse, it is in the manner of the Biblical, which is very different from the continuous flow of the whole Quran, from verse to the next verse below it and from the ending of a chapter to the unbreakable, if you will flow to the beginning of the following chapter. You could read the Quran from Suratul Fatiha to the Suratul Nas, and you may not take a break by just joining the ending of old chapter to beginning of the new one below it.

The Christian Furqan is a snow job; a do over, because it failed even in the hand of a casual read of the Quran, and definitely it will not pass as a viable competition on the lips of The Qari [reciters of Quran], for many reasons including the ruling on tajweed.

The "indeed we shall produce a thousand similar. . ." since then have been empty promise. Where is a [single] similar, while you boasted about thousand? You should lower your expectation. Produce just one that the muslims can see and hold and read and say; oh. this one met the challenge.


Allah says in the Quran that they will not believe even if angels were to [by His Power] ascend and descent in a visible ladder from earth extending to heaven. They will say, its all an illusion.


I am waiting for a christians to tell me who is the "The Prophet", that John or Jesus was not when each was asked it he was?

Sweetnecta:

The "indeed we shall produce a thousand similar. . ." since then have been empty promise. Where is a [single] similar, while you boasted about thousand? You should lower your expectation. Produce just one that the muslims can see and hold and read and say; oh. this one met the challenge.

My response to sweetnecta's confused drivel is EXACTLY the same response Al-Razi himself gave when confronted with such foolishness as the above . . .

[size=14pt]By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: “Produce something like it”?![/size]



Al-Razi must have been a comedian.

I do not argue things that are evidently from "suspicious" source attributed to someone who is known as the opposite of the allegations attributed to him.

LagosShia:

I do not argue things that are evidently from "suspicious" source attributed to someone who is known as the opposite of the allegations attributed to him.

Al-Razi is known as a persian freethinker.
Al-Razi is known as a famous scientist and physician

One thing Al-Razi is not known for is his islamic faith (which is simply implied by virtue of his name and heritage). Its very common for muslims to attribute any muslim-sounding individual to be muslim so they can attribute the person's fame to islam. Not a surprise considering jewish prophets are all claimed as "muslim" while we can barely find any of ishmael's children playing any significant role in the quran.

divinereal:

Al-Razi denied the Islamic dogma of creation ex nihilo. For him, the world was created at a finite moment in time, but not out of nothing. Al-Razi believed in the existence of the five eternal principles: creator, soul, matter, time, and space.

How did this so-called 'rationalist' account for these principles as ETERNAL?

davidylan:

Al-Razi is known as a persian freethinker.
Al-Razi is known as a famous scientist and physician

It seems you either shut eyes to seeing common fact or deliberately want to argue for the sake of argument, as the source you are making your judgement is based on doubtful material, and from all indication you do not even want  to consider what Lagoshia said that he has read materials of Islamic nature attributed to him, yet the whole the article found in wikepedia only takes western sources in writing about him, if you had a grain of sincerity in you, you will still consider the possibility that they might be a grave heap of lies thrown on him, even other than that, this is just one person, who even happen to have been a beneficiary of the strides of Islam in expanding the frontiers scientific knowledge, he couldn't have achieved much without the fact that the Islamic state then had the state not have a favourable policy towards science regardless of whether he was a muslim or freetghinker it matters not as there are numerous examples of muslims who have contributed their quota to science development, and I believe at that time, your Christians fathers were busy living a life of abject squalor and ignorance, no?

davidylan:

One thing Al-Razi is not known for is his islamic faith (which is simply implied by virtue of his name and heritage). Its very common for muslims to attribute any muslim-sounding individual to be muslim so they can attribute the person's fame to islam. Not a surprise considering jewish prophets are all claimed as "muslim" while we can barely find any of ishmael's children playing any significant role in the quran.

That seem a strange way of thinking don't you think? It is common for muslims to attribute what to muslim sounding name, salman rushdie sound muslim and he is famous, yet he is not even considered anywhere near being a muslim, and find it baffling why you and your cohorts are in the habit of being simpletons and medicres when it comes to discussing issues, don't you have an objective mind in dealing with issues? when you talk of Jewish prophets[playing important orle in the Qur'an and barely finding any of ishmaels children doing so, what do you think you have proven, that Jews ar better than arabs, i find it a reflection of your poor intellectual standings when you keep up this jewish worship, even the most myopic of Islam's critic would have to testify that the Qur'an basically preaches using tales found therein, unlike the porn ridden bible where you read of prophet's child sleeping with his stepmum and receiving no punishment nor corrections, or we read of a prophet sleeping with his daughter yet the same situations no punishment no correction no curse, again we read of Judah the father of the Jews sleeping with his daughter in law, yet no punishment no correction, we read in the Qur'an stories that will move one to think of doing right and behaving normally but when instead one reads the bible he begins to have chemical reactions since he cannot find any form of reproach in them. Alhamdulilah how Allah make plain to the disbelievers of truth their erroneous ways.

lets keep muslim topics in muslim section, thanks.

Are frosbel and Davidlyan related?