"Not With Wisdom of Words"

(The Gospel doesn't need our help)

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." —1st Corinthians 1:17

I recently received an e-mail from a man inquiring how to witness to a Roman Catholic.  He said he had a friend who was really having a hard time with the matter of "works" not being necessary for salvation.  I shared with him the Bible's teaching on salvation, stressing that salvation is "by grace through faith" and NOT of works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5).  I also shared with him Galatians 2:16,

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." -Galatians 2:16

He e-mailed back again, saying that "his friend" needed "proof" of exactly where the Catholic religion teaches that "works" are mandatory for salvation.  I responded by referring him to the Vatican II documents of the Roman Catholic church, in which the Vatican requires baptism into the "Catholic" church, holy communion, and the keeping of the seven sacraments to go to heaven.

The man responded by saying that the Lutheran religion also requires Baptism and Holy Communion to be saved, and then he accused me of failing to expose them as I had the Catholics.  I responded by assuring him that I DO expose the Lutheran religion and sent him the link to my false religions page.

The man e-mailed me again, claiming that his friend absolutely would NOT accept my innuendos and needed "proof" that the Bible didn't require works to be saved.  He quoted me several verses such as Luke 13:9, "And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."  He tried to defend the heresy that "works" are necessary to salvation with such Scriptures.  The Bible does NOT contradict itself, hundreds of Biblical references teach us that good "works" are a sure road to hell (Isaiah 64:6).

After e-mailing back and forth several times, the gentleman became belligerent and it was apparent to me that he was more argumentative than hungry for the truth.  At this point I realized that he probably didn't have a friend and was just wanting to defend his false religion.  I remembered his first e-mail which he had sent to me, asking for help witnessing to his Catholic friend.  Then the Holy Spirit reminded me of the following Scripture,

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." -1st Corinthians 1:17

Whether the man was sincere or not didn't matter to me at this point,  either I was trying to use the WISDOM OF WORDS to convince an unbeliever, or the man was sincerely trying to use the WISDOM OF WORDS to win his unbelieving friend to the Lord.  Either way, it wasn't going to work.  The Bible teaches that the GOSPEL (i.e., God's plan of salvation for mankind) is the power which saves a person; not our own eloquent words,

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." -Romans 1:16

I kindly wrote the man back and explained 1st Corinthians 1:17 to him.  I explained to him that the way you witness to a Catholic is the same way you witness to anyone,  with the GOSPEL (1st Corinthians 15:1-4).  We are ALL sinners deserving of hell-fire.  Jesus Christ (the Son of God) paid for our sins with His blood; Jesus DIED; Jesus was BURIED and Jesus ROSE from the dead for our justification.

All we need to do for salvation is to trust upon Jesus Christ by faith to forgive our sins (Romans 3:10,23;5:8;6:23;10:9-13). Acts 10:43 states, "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."

The way to witness to ANYONE is to simply present the plain truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to them.  If a person doesn't want to be saved after having the simple Gospel, then they don't want to be saved.  There's no wisdom of words to convince the skeptic of the truth—the Gospel is what it is.  If a man will not obey the simple Gospel, then he will not listen to the wisdom of words,  "lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect" (1st Corinthians 1:17).

I sometimes forget this Biblical principle and find myself arguing religion with people.  To date, I have never known a religious person to come to Christ as a result of debating beliefs.  But I have seen some religious people come to Christ right away when they heard the plain Gospel.  A person who wants to be saved WILL trust Christ immediately, you do not need to argue anything with them.  A person who wants to DEBATE religion has already rejected Christ in their heart and is now defending their unbelief.

Even if you prove them dead wrong with the Scriptures, they will still hold onto their unbelief (Mark 7:6-9; Luke 16:31).  There are people all over the world who want to argue religion.  We do NOT need to debate with them; but rather, just keep giving them the simple Gospel of Jesus Christ.  The POWER of God which brings salvation is the GOSPEL itself, and not our cleverly worded arguments.

There are billions of people in this world who have never heard the Gospel, many of whom would happily trust Christ; but we are too busy arguing religion with conceited fools.  Oftentimes we erroneously think that if we could just word our presentation a little differently that perhaps we might be able to win a hardened unbeliever to the Lord.  God does NOT want us to try to win the lost using our own wisdom of words; but rather, with the plain Gospel of Jesus Christ.

If they won't accept God's free gift of eternal life from just hearing the Gospel, then there is NOTHING we can say to make any difference,  "And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets [i.e., the Bible], neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (Luke 16:30,31).

All we can do to get people saved is to express God's unconditional love for them by sharing the Gospel truth with them, pray for them, never give-up on them; but also, NOT get into heated futile debates that go in circles and waste precious time.

So I say to you my dear reader, let's focus on the Gospel itself, and let the power of God take control.

1stly d Catholic Church does not and has never taught salvation by works. In fact it teaches salvation by grace, but faith and works as the human response to God's grace are necessary for salvation. We can do nothing without God's grace.

Now I've read all the verses you posted and Amen!, We Catholics believe all of it, its what we are taught. All d verses show that we are saved by faith, But you hav still not given us a verse that teaches that we are saved by faith ALONE. And the reason you havn't given me one such verse is that it isn't in the Bible.

However, I hav verses from d Bible that back up the Catholic Church's teaching of salvation by FAITH & WORKS.

James 2:14 asks: "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"

James 2:17 answers: "So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

I don't know if you've come across this verse b4 and u purposely ignored it just so u can discredit d Catholic Church or like so many other non-catholics or 'former Catholics' like you call urself u hav been bombarded by lies, half-truths and 'untruths' about the Catholic Church by anti-catholics who definitely would high-light verses like these to you, But whatever be the case I hope you can see that this Catholic teaching is perfectly in line with scripture.

And even though you don't see, At least there are many others who might otherwise have been deceived by you, They can see now!

Thank you.

Great post, Frosbel.
@Italo
All I see, is that, like millions before you, you are unable to distinguish the roles of faith and that of works in the justified man.

@5solas

I wasn't trying to distinguish d roles of faith n works. I was trying to prove that they are both necessary for salvation.

I'm sure those verse are clear enough to back that up, Or do I need to translate it to another language?

@copy n paste frosbel


yes faith ALONE will not save u as the bible clearly teaches in the book of james Italo just posted.except u ma also want 2 call James a baby Apostle.

Baptism is also a precondition for salvation.It is the foremost sacrament that initiates us into the body of christ thereby making us xtians.

Jesus himself told nicodemus that unless a man is born of water he shall not see the kingdom of God.Even though this teaching clearly refers to baptism as taught by the early church fathers,some others have chosen 2 give a differant interpretation 2 that statement.

@Italo; you have to translate to say mongolian language for 5solas to get it.even the whole of christianity.

this is because it is the tradition of christians, at least if not the jews, too to have no original language of a book,

but to have the book from  a language different from what the revelations came in, the tongue of the receiver.

and or have corruption enters into it, as Jeremiah rightly pointed to the jews of torah.

neither old nor new testament the Reveal[er] promised safe vouching till end of time.

You have to come to the Quran for that; hence it is easy to memorize, even on the tongue of a child.


You people have made religion and worship of God very complicated and exclusive club or few, in knowledge and substance.

if the Jews did not make it a tribal thing, the Christians made it a man's blood must be spilled to appease God that just canceled killing animals.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jK07mnSrgg&NR=1



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbkuBq0Mcw4&feature=related



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu3eCkOyLYI

the necessity of works 4 salvation was underscored by Jesus in matt 25:31-46 when on judgement day he rewarded some people 4 works of charity.I was hungry n u fed me,


Likewise some people were condenmed for not observing works of charity

what do you understand by works ??

Works of faith include :

Living a sin-free life by the power of the Holy Spirit
Visiting the widows and orphans and helping them
Helping the poor especially those of the household of GOD
Praying for the sick
Preaching to the lost



Works are not :


Praying to Mary
Penance
confessing sins to a priest
bowing before statues of dead saints
holy water sprinkling
abstaining from meats
forbidding to marry
praying with the rosary

These are all dead works.

@Italo; you have to translate to say mongolian language for 5solas to get it.even the whole of christianity.

this is because it is the tradition of christians, at least if not the jews, too to have no original language of a book,

Another Muslim LIE, Original languages were Hebrew and Greek.

But lets talk about the Quran where 80% of Muslims chant Arabic phrases that they cannot understand, is that not confusion gone riot.

Indeed the original bible manuscripts were translated to all tongues and languages across the entire world.

Same cannot be said of Arabic , even though, and we applaud them for this effort, your Imams tried to translate the originals into English but intentionally mistranslated many sentences either because of shame or to deceive the Kafir.

but to have the book from  a language different from what the revelations came in, the tongue of the receiver.

and or have corruption enters into it, as Jeremiah rightly pointed to the jews of torah.

neither old nor new testament the Reveal[er] promised safe vouching till end of time.

So ALLAH is not all powerful then 

Because he asked you to go to the Jews and Christians to hear the words of GOD because ALLAH had delivered it into their hands for safe keeping.

So how come, your so called ALLAH who is all-knowing never perceived that at some future point these books will be corrupted 

And why do you and your imams use the same scriptures that are corrupted to defend ISLAM and promote Muhammad 

I am sorry but the more you read the Christian scripture without the Holy Spirit the more you make yourself look silly.

The Quran was and is not inspired , in fact I have a copy of the Quran ( brand new ) a Muslim friend gave to me , and it is utter confusion to say the least. But I still have it for reference.

How someone can call that book divine is beyond me !!!

You have to come to the Quran for that; hence it is easy to memorize, even on the tongue of a child.

Yeah right, in Arabic.   

You people have made religion and worship of God very complicated and exclusive club or few, in knowledge and substance.

By you people I presume you mean Catholics. But tell me what can be harder and more burdensome that ISLAM ?

Fast
Pray 5 times a day
wash hands and feet
kill for ALLAH
Chant the Quran in an unknown language called Arabic
bow before the Kabba
dress like Arabs
wear your beards like Arabs
women in black and black like Arabs
pray with beads like the catholics
etc etc etc

Surely worshiping God cannot be this hard 

if the Jews did not make it a tribal thing, the Christians made it a man's blood must be spilled to appease God that just canceled killing animals.

Shows your complete ignorance of the bible, because if you read the bible from genesis to revelation, you might be better enlightened on some of these matters.

But picking snippets here and there will only make your confusion get worse.

Well @ least you have clearly changed your stance on the necessity of works for salvation.

In ur OP you implied that works were not necessary, you even said that "good works are a sure way to hell" - and I still can't believe a so-called christian would say that.

Now, everyone knows who was in error between you and the Catholic Church.

]At best the languages of Moses will be what Pharaoh spoke in his palace. it was the palace of pharaoh that Moses was raised, as a prince. Maybe he spoke whatever the children of Israel spoke, in some way. After all he lived in Egypt, and that was his country of birth. Then he escaped to Median. He was never a Greek and never lived there and was not under the greek authority. In fact, the language of Egypt is more primary on the tongue of the children of Israel up to the time they acquired another tongue probably when they settled down to Palestine.


Greek should be one of the none languages that the OT could ever be written in. The dominance of Greek will be similar to Dayokanu writing the story of Chief Akintola in Yoruba language and somebody burnt it after he had read it, and turn around to write it in his Mandingo Gambia language. Then return it to Yoruba land as the official story of the late icon. I am sure if the whole of Yoruba people do not reject it as fraud, the Ogbomosho people will. Definitely Dayokanu will. This is the condition of the Bible. And we all know who is the liar.

if you read the Quran long enough, the arabic word will begin to be etched on your heart and the meaning is less strange to you. i know because thats whats happening to me.Further, there is no 'original' bible manuscript. your thinking is that of a man guessing. i will quote Paul in a minute so that you will know that you are standing on quick sand. you are bound to drown in the sand. As old as arabic language is, a young language cant handle its complexity of 2 different plurals, for instance, etc. The uniqueness of Quran is in its original language of revelation. But that Allah guaranteed it to remain uncorrupted.

Allah allowed man to tamper with what He allows them to tamper with. Hence we see man creation, their own Torah, Psalm and injil which they call the Bible. The Bible is itself a testimony to the evil of the hands of men; jews and Christians. They made up a name, and a book. They changed words from their places and created meanings. Jeremiah's statement is a clear warning. And the lies of Paul will demonstrate this, below.

The Quran revived the original Oneness of God as Adam knew it, all the way to the prostrating Jesus [as]. The Shariah of Quran supersede the unstable mind set of the Christians and their father, the jews, who instead of prostrating after bowing are clapping hands and talking to the wall, respectively. Can anyone show me Jesus clapping hands, instead of prostrating his face? Can anyone show me Moses talking to the wall, instead of fasting, taking off his shoes, or Abraham not prostrating his face? Quran abrogated and has rendered the bible null and void.

A thing corrupted does not mean it is not without some elements of truth. It is just that it is 100% true. Many men are corrupt. Some are even fathers. In reality they are bad fathers, and immoral. But nonetheless, somebody calls him dad. We have a bunch of them in england. I have asked the christians to give me the name of their holy spirit as they will readily give me the name of Jesus. No one can produce it. I am sure there is no trinity, hence no holy spirit like that and therefore no name can be provided.

They are confounded by Satan, thinking there are holy spirit and son of God. I have news for you; you will die as an ignorant man, unless you mend your ways of confusion. Some men are so confused that they shave their faces smooth to look like women. Some where ear rings. I wonder when will they put on skirts, oh you people of Sodom? Decide what you are; male or female because you cant be both. anyway, winter is coming. in your condition, when you bundle up, no one will know if you are a man or woman.

And it is the muslim who looks like Jesus, based on how Muhammad [as] described him [as]. Below is the honest lies of Paul:

What About The Bible?

[b]What about the Bible now? Firstly, before we lay the allegation, it is necessary to know attributes of satan according to the Bible.

John 8:44: "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

So, we see here that satan is associated with murdering, not holding to truth and lying. If one commits these actions, it doesn't necessarily mean they are influenced by satan, because they could have done it unintentionally. Although Paul did purposefully murder (Acts 22:4, Acts 26:10) and spoke lies (1 Corinthians 9:19-23) in his native tongue (Acts 21:40 & see here), we will focus on some verses in the Bible which in fact fits an particular attribute of satan.

1 Corinthians 7:12: "To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her."

1 Corinthians 7:25: "Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy."

2 Corinthians 11:17: "In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool."

People's New Testament Commentary - 1 Corinthians 7:25: "I have no commandment. He had no revelation upon the subject, but could give his Christian judgment."[/b]

chukwudi44:

@copy n paste frosbel

Too true, chukwudi44.
And from here
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/simple_gospel.htm

Real Christians aren't afraid of admitting their sources, frosbel, unless, of course, you're trying to deceive the readers into thinking you thought that post up on your own!

Catholics & Muslims making common cause on this thread. Mother & daughter together. . .isn't that interesting?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Catholics are your father in Christianity. You and them are sons of Paul, the killer and liar.


I am waiting for you to provide a name of Holy Spirit. Mine is a messenger of Allah. Read Surah Maryam where he was telling her that he is a messenger of God.


I know you will never provide an identifiable name, if your life and or salvation depend on it.

Your religion is incomplete, then riddled with corruption, son of Paul.

aletheia:

Catholics & Muslims making common cause on this thread. Mother & daughter together. . .isn't that interesting?

What is their relationship to protestant Christians?

^Muslims hate Christianity with some soft spot for Catholics because of Mary.
Catholics hate Protestant Christianity.

Both sects want Jerusalem. Both sects do so love "pilgrimages". Both sects have killed or will kill "in the name of God."

@aletheia

killing in d name of God is not restricted to either islam or catholic christianity.protestants have also killed in the name of God.most notably in the european religious wars of the seventeenth century.

You might want 2 read martin luthers treatise called on the jews and their lies which in turn inspired the greatest genocide in history-the nazi holocaust.Not to mention the killing of alleged child witches by akwa ibom pentecostal pastors

[Quote]« #15 on: Today at 02:51:49 PM »

^Muslims hate Christianity with some soft spot for Catholics because of Mary.[/Quote]and he hates catholics with harshness against Mary. You qualify for grace with Jesus. i hope the person who may hate your mother is your favorite person in whole world! i see that you align with the jews who called Mary a LovePeddler and Jesus a bastard by it. see your life, aletheia. Jesus, if he is true to his word will say 'i never knew thee' to you.


[QuoteCatholics hate Protestant Christianity.[quote][/Quote]you mean catholic christianity whose boo you copied less 7? see how original protestants are. You plagiarize their book and you have the mouth to accuse them of idolatry. are you not worse than an idolator? nonsense. orishi rishi.


[Quote]Both sects want Jerusalem. Both sects do so love "pilgrimages". Both sects have killed or will kill "in the name of God."[/Quote]Sects? Which religion is Islam sect of of, you who always keep your brain in your behind? The catholic President Bush waged a crusade. The protestnts, as usual protested against it. Its sarcasm. I am laughing in idoma.

Pagan Catholics and Pagan Muslims of the same feather, flocking together and defending each other.

Now you know what I am talking about !!!!

But it is very ignorant of you to say the catholics wrote the bible , because the bible was originally in greek and Hebrew and these were the manuscripts used to write the kings James bible , not the Latin catholic bible. Don't even get me started here before I expose the gaps in your knowledge of history.

The same catholics who prevented the poor masses from owning a copy of the bible for centuries.

Looks like you have never read history.

But keep on pallying with your catholic pagan brothers

chukwudi44:

killing in d name of God is not restricted to either islam or catholic christianity.protestants have also killed in the name of God.most notably in the european religious wars of the seventeenth century.

^But only the papists and the islamists promise or promised a heavenly reward for killing "in the name of God". In any case your argument is weak. Are you justifying evil because others commit evil.

chukwudi44:

You might want 2 read martin luthers treatise called on the jews and their lies which in turn inspired the greatest genocide in history-the nazi holocaust.Not to mention the killing of alleged child witches by akwa ibom pentecostal pastors

^Again, are you justifying Roman Catholic evil by the evil committed by others? (In any case, the pentecostal movement is a daughter of Rome). Martin Luther only holds historical interest to me. He is not Jesus whom your church denies but I can understand the angst concerning Martin Luther.

Sweetnecta:

and he hates catholics with harshness against Mary.

^I hate and detest Islam, Roman Catholic religion and the "Queen of Heaven". There! Do your worst. . .

@aletheia


where on earth did u read that that catholic church promised heaven 2 those who commit murder.Admittedly some killings were pepetrated by catholics but no one was promised heaven 4 committing them.

If you say martin luther is only historical to u so also is the inquisitions to a modern catholic.

Just to correct some erroneous views:

1. Catholics, generally, do not 'hate' protestants. At least, we are not taught to hate. The opposite, in fact is what we're taught - LOVE!

2. It's not Sweetnectar you'll have to contend with for hating the 'Queen of Heaven". It's the King of Heaven that'll 'do his worst'.

3. Catholics wrote the entire New Testament and compiled the Bible, And it was written for Catholics. And a stranger doesn't explain to a child what the mother is saying to him, so you don't tell us what's in the Bible, we gave it to you. It might sound arrogant but that's the truth!

frosbel hasn't  defended his cut-and-paste tactics of the OP.
Isn't stealing a sin, frosbel?

aletheia:

^Muslims hate Christianity with some soft spot for Catholics because of Mary.

Could you give some sources for that, please?

aletheia:
Catholics hate Protestant Christianity.

And protestants hate Catholics!
With a vengeance.
You knew it was illegal to be a Catholic in the UK for many years?
Nor possible to be an MP?

Have you ever heard of the KKK?
Did you know JFK was often slurred by his political opponents because he was a Catholic?
Protestant America was told JFK would sell them out to the Pope!

The history of sectarian hatred doesn't end there, of course, nor is limited to Protestant vs. Catholic.
Just limited to fanatic vs fanatic.

aletheia:
Both sects want Jerusalem. Both sects do so love "pilgrimages". Both sects have killed or will kill "in the name of God."

Jerusalem.
Yes.
I'm surprised you're leaving the Greek Orthodoxes out of the equation, aletheia.
Odd, considering the squabbles over religious details in points of pilgrimage.




Ah, frosbel.
Another hateful diatribe!
Let's see what this one is about.
By the way, has anyone else noticed how frosbel's writing skills plummet when he's not cutting and pasting?

frosbel:

Pagan Catholics and Pagan Muslims of the same feather, flocking together and defending each other.

Now you know what I am talking about !!!!

But it is very ignorant of you to say the catholics wrote the bible , because the bible was originally in greek and Hebrew and these were the manuscripts used to write the kings James bible , not the Latin catholic bible. Don't even get me started here before I expose the gaps in your knowledge of history.

The same catholics who prevented the poor masses from owning a copy of the bible for centuries.

Looks like you have never read history.

But keep on pallying with your catholic pagan brothers 

That's a good example of frosbel lashing out blindly at anything that moves, I must say.
And on the subject of bibles in the English language, there's a great deal to be said

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05140a.htm

the whole Bible was eventually published in two quarto volumes, in 1609 and 1610, by which time the college had returned to Douai, and the recommendation was signed by three doctors of that university. Thus the New Testament appeared nearly thirty years before the Anglican "Authorized Version", and although not officially mentioned as one of the versions to be consulted, it is now commonly recognized to have had a large influence on the King James Version

So the Catholic translation to English appeared 30 years before the KJV and influenced it considerably.

And the sources of the KJV?
From Wiki

James gave the translators instructions intended to guarantee that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology and reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England and its beliefs about an ordained clergy.[9]

The KJV owes a great deat to Beza's work, of course.
Again, from Wiki:

Of no less importance are the contributions of Beza to Biblical science. In 1565 he issued an edition of the Greek New Testament, accompanied in parallel columns by the text of the Vulgate and a translation of his own (already published as early as 1556). Annotations were added, also previously published, but now he greatly enriched and enlarged them.

In the preparation of this edition of the Greek text, but much more in the preparation of the second edition which he brought out in 1582, Beza may have availed himself of the help of two very valuable manuscripts. One is known as the Codex Bezae or Cantabrigensis, and was later presented by Beza to the University of Cambridge; the second is the Codex Claromontanus, which Beza had found in Clermont (now in the National Library at Paris).

It was not, however, to these sources that Beza was chiefly indebted, but rather to the previous edition of the eminent Robert Estienne (1550), itself based in great measure upon one of the later editions of Erasmus. Beza's labors in this direction were exceedingly helpful to those who came after. The same thing may be asserted with equal truth of his Latin version and of the copious notes with which it was accompanied. The former is said to have been published over a hundred times.

Although some contend that Beza's view of the doctrine of predestination exercised an overly dominant influence upon his interpretation of the Scriptures, there is no question that he added much to a clear understanding of the New Testament.

As time goes by, obviously we have access to better sources, better translations of the available manuscripts.
And especially with the advantage of computer analysis, things are much clearer.

We should never forget, however the tremendous debt we have to those great 16th century thinkers!

frosbel:

what do you understand by works ??

Works of faith include :

Living a sin-free life by the power of the Holy Spirit
Visiting the widows and orphans and helping them
Helping the poor especially those of the household of GOD
Praying for the sick
Preaching to the lost



Works are not :


Praying to Mary
Penance
confessing sins to a priest
bowing before statues of dead saints
holy water sprinkling
abstaining from meats
forbidding to marry
praying with the rosary

These are all dead works.

guy, you are a serious apologetic.

frosbel hasn't  defended his cut-and-paste tactics of the OP.
Isn't stealing a sin, frosbel

You must be having a bad day today 

I always provide links when I cut and paste.

In this instance it must have been an oversight, but surely anyone would have known I did not write the initial article, right

And protestants hate Catholics!
With a vengeance.
You knew it was illegal to be a Catholic in the UK for many years?
Nor possible to be an MP?

Obviously what do you expect, who would want to be a part of that LovePeddler system of an empire called mother church.

Have you ever heard of the KKK?
Did you know JFK was often slurred by his political opponents because he was a Catholic?
Protestant America was told JFK would sell them out to the Pope!

That's politics, don't you get it 

The history of sectarian hatred doesn't end there, of course, nor is limited to Protestant vs. Catholic.
Just limited to fanatic vs fanatic.

Using the word sectarian here really nails down my point. Sects are the problem , both in the church and out of the church.

I do not belong to a sect but there are sects and sects.

There are many church sects that preach the truth in Love and reach out to the lost, though they almost certainly will prefer you attend their chuuch with some set of rules. Sometimes they get a few things wrong, but not to the damnation or risk of soul. In many cases they hold on to the core truths of the bible.

The sects I am talking about are the murderous and dangerous sects like Islam, Catholicism  and the likes.

These are the sects responsible for the hatred you keep rambling on about , and the blood shed of milions of innocent precious people.

We are talkling about sects founded on fraud , lies, deceptions and have the tendency to deceive and damn souls for an eternity.

erusalem.
Yes.
I'm surprised you're leaving the Greek Orthodoxes out of the equation, aletheia.
Odd, considering the squabbles over religious details in points of pilgrimage.

And what about the Greek orthodox church  Why don't you stick to the point at hand and stop skirting around the issue, rushing off to your most reliable source to date ,the new advent, and pasting unproven facts.

Ah, frosbel.
Another hateful diatribe!
Let's see what this one is about.
By the way, has anyone else noticed how frosbel's writing skills plummet when he's not cutting and pasting?

You miss the point. If you work in the professional environment, there is a saying that goes like this , ' why reinvent the wheel '. For example , If I read an article that proves accurate and factual on a specfic topic, of course I wll post it here for nairalanders to read , digest and debate.

Who has time to start a write up of 10 pages from scratch, some of us have real jobs you know   

That's a good example of frosbel lashing out blindly at anything that moves, I must say.
And on the subject of bibles in the English language, there's a great deal to be said

Let's rephrase your sentence , 'that's a good example of frosbel lashing out at falsehood, trickery and deception in and out of the church.'  Sure makes more sense to me.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05140a.htm

Lol, 

You keep getting new sources on a daily basis, many of them suspect and nonacademic.

So the Catholic translation to English appeared 30 years before the KJV and influenced it considerably.

If you read history, you will understand that the catholic bible was NOT USED for the Kings James.

47 Scholar experts in Hebrew and Greek used the original manuscripts to write the KJV.  Do you also know that some new English versions of the bible like the NIV and NLT were translated direct from the Hebrew and Greek sources with some manuscripts used older than the ones used for the KJV.

But guess what , they all agree with the KJV, go figure !!

And the sources of the KJV?
From Wiki
The KJV owes a great deat to Beza's work, of course.
Again, from Wiki:
As time goes by, obviously we have access to better sources, better translations of the available manuscripts.
And especially with the advantage of computer analysis, things are much clearer.

You are now back to Wiki. 

I suspect you are a student, and it really concerns me that your university will allow their students use wikipedia for factual research.

chukwudi44:

where on earth did u read that that catholic church promised heaven 2 those who commit murder.Admittedly some killings were pepetrated by catholics but no one was promised heaven 4 committing them.

^

Wikipedia: Pope Urban II defined and launched the crusades at the Council of Clermont in 1095. He was a reformer worried about the evils which had hindered the spiritual success of the church and its clergy and the need for a revival of religiosity. He was moved by the urgent appeal for help from Byzantine Emperor Alexius I. Urban's solution was announced on the last day of the council when the pope suddenly proclaimed the Crusade against the infidel Muslims. He called for Christian princes across Europe to launch a holy war in the Holy Land. He contrasted the sanctity of Jerusalem and the holy places with the plunder and desecration by the infidel Turks. He exited outrage by vividly describing attacks upon the Christian pilgrims. He also noted the military threat to the fellow Christians of Byzantium. He charged Christians to take up the holy cause, promising to all those who went remission of sins and to all who died in the expedition immediate entry into heaven

Do you deny your "infallible" pope?

chukwudi44:

If you say martin luther is only historical to u so also is the inquisitions to a modern catholic.

^Nice try but not quite the same. The Roman Catholic Church is an institution that claims for itself continuity and authority from ancient times. The Roman Catholic Church has never apologized for the Inquisition nor the millions of souls it murdered in Europe, Asia, Africa and the Americas. Moreover you seem to miss the import of what I am saying: It is you Roman Catholics that are obsessed by Martin Luther and I can understand why: he dealt a massive blow to your Pope's authority. . .but when all is said and done he is yet but a man. I am not given to veneration of dead men as you Catholics are. . .so Luther only holds historical interest for me.

PA1982:

Could you give some sources for that, please?

^You need to interact with Muslim sources more: From their own quran:

9:29 Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe neither in God nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.

As Muhammad lay dying, these were some of his last words:

"May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of the prophets." Bukhari, Vol. 1, #427

PA1982:

And protestants hate Catholics!

. . .history bears this out. Religion is Politics.

PA1982:

Jerusalem.
Yes.
I'm surprised you're leaving the Greek Orthodoxes out of the equation, aletheia.
Odd, considering the squabbles over religious details in points of pilgrimage.

^You can include the Eastern Orthodox Churches as well if you wish. . .the key difference is that the RCC desires temporal control over Jerusalem. In any case, all such pilgrimages are are a sham.

@aletheia

the first crusade was legally and morally jstified.The church in he miedevial era equally acted as civil government and thus has every right to defend her citizens.

You might want to read the church teachings on just war.

By the way you have no idea about the meaning of the term-infallibility of the pope.I will u google it and read it up before comming here to advertise ur ignorance.

On the apologies for catholic errors in the past,where were u when pope JP 2 apologised on behalf of the catholic church sometimes in the late nineties?


Ironically no one from the protestant side has similarly come out to apologise for their own atrocities.catholics were equally persecuted in protestant countries like englang,scotland,denmark,holland e.t.c

all you can claim is martin luther and his cronies are only historical.do u really think the catholic inquisitions were not?is there any catholic living now who partoicipated in those killings
The problem with you protestants is that you always run away from liabilities

@aletheia

the first crusade was legally and morally jstified.The church in he miedevial era equally acted as civil government and thus has every right to defend her citizens.

You might want to read the church teachings on just war.

Utter deception and rubbish.

Show me in the new testament where Jesus Christ asked his followers to fight the unbelievers.

Muslims , Jews and others were victims of the massacres by the so called Holy crusaders.

In fact you cannot really blame the Muslim armies for their retaliatory strikes , because when the Crusaders entered Jerusalem, they committed some of the worst known atrocities known to man, wiping out Muslim women and babies not to talk of Jews.

And you dare come here to say it was a just war ??

You Catholics need God to thump your heads really hard, maybe you will come to your senses.

Lets see what Jesus Christ did when confronted with danger.

"Jesus answered, "My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world." - John 18:36

"To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”- Romans 12:20


Where on earth did you get the idea that the Christian should fight a just war ?

This is the same thing Geroge Bush did, fighting a just war ? What was just in that war ? Killing women, children , maiming and stealing their oil. 

The catholic church is a law unto itself, the most lawless thing that happened since Satan fell from heaven.

By the way you have no idea about the meaning of the term-infallibility of the pope.I will u google it and read it up before comming here to advertise your ignorance.

Let me educate you a little , since I was a leader in the youth catholic ministry and a member of the church many years ago.

Infallibility means that the pope's final verdict on doctrine cannot be challenged. In other words he is 1000% accurate on such matters.

Now to me that is heresy, only God is perfect in knowledge and full of wisdom.

On the apologies for catholic errors in the past,where were u when pope JP 2 apologised on behalf of the catholic church sometimes in the late nineties?

He should have apologized to GOD first for disobeying the commandment that says , ' thou shall not kill '.

And he should have repented of his sins and accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. Then to show his true repentance, he should have sold all the church property and used the money to feed the poor.

But the Pope also needs to apologize for the inquisitions where millions of Christians were massacred , tortured, burnt alive , their tongues plucked out etc.

Bad as Islam is, they can never match the middle age catholic church in brutality and barbarity.

Ironically no one from the protestant side has similarly come out to apologise for their own atrocities.catholics were equally persecuted in protestant countries like englang,scotland,denmark,holland e.t.c

Nobody supported those killings and what makes you think protestants were right anyway, it was just the same coin with a different side.

God does not believe in sects.

The problem with you protestants is that you always run away from liabilities

What makes you think I am a protestant, why can we not just be called Christian  Why add a tag to it 

"and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch." - Acts 11:26

@Aletheia, I agree with Chukwudi44, I think you should find out what the Church teaches about Papal infallibility, then come back and admit your gross lack of information or distortion of information about the Catholic Church.

A sane adult who doesn't know something shouldn't argue about it. He should rather ask and listen.

@Frosbel, when you started this thread, you said all we needed to be saved was to have faith in Jesus as saviour. Why then are you bothered about the bad things you say the Catholic Church has done. We believe in Jesus so we have eternal life, right. Why are you concerned about our 'works'.

And you're in no position to tell the next man who he truly believes in since it is God that sees the heart.

@chukwudi44: why are you shifting all over the place.
I said:

aletheia:

^But only the papists and the islamists promise or promised a heavenly reward for killing "in the name of God".

And you challenged me thus:

chukwudi44:

where on earth did u read that that catholic church promised heaven 2 those who commit murder.Admittedly some killings were pepetrated by catholics but no one was promised heaven 4 committing them.

Wherein the evidence was provided:

Wikipedia: Pope Urban II defined and launched the crusades at the Council of Clermont in 1095. He was a reformer worried about the evils which had hindered the spiritual success of the church and its clergy and the need for a revival of religiosity. He was moved by the urgent appeal for help from Byzantine Emperor Alexius I. Urban's solution was announced on the last day of the council when the pope suddenly proclaimed the Crusade against the infidel Muslims. He called for Christian princes across Europe to launch a holy war in the Holy Land. He contrasted the sanctity of Jerusalem and the holy places with the plunder and desecration by the infidel Turks. He exited outrage by vividly describing attacks upon the Christian pilgrims. He also noted the military threat to the fellow Christians of Byzantium. He charged Christians to take up the holy cause, promising to all those who went remission of sins and to all who died in the expedition immediate entry into heaven

The question is: did the Roman Catholic Church promise heaven to those who committed murder? The answer is irrefutably yes it did. So all this waffling about morally and legally justified crusades cannot negate that fact.

@aletheia

the first crusade was morally justified as the lives n faith of the byzantine christians were at stake.It is not MURDER but rather a just war except maybe for those who might have committed conventional war crimes n will answer to God 4 it

^^


It was murder, Christ never asked you to fight. are you a follow follow pope worshiper or a Christ follower.

It seems you are obeying the heretical belief system of the false church called catholic instead of the bible.