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Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex - Ethnic, Racial, Or Sectarian Politics - Nairaland

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Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by nolongTing: 11:25am On Sep 16, 2011
Northerners Sudanese  people think of themselves as Arabs, whereas the Arabs see Northern Sudanese people as abid, (sing. abd), slaves. The Arabs of the Middle East, especially those of the Arab Peninsula, are the “real Arabs” today and represent what most Northern Sudanese people dream of becoming.

In 1990, a group of Northern Sudanese in Birmingham in England started a dispute over how to fill in the Local Council’s Form.  They felt that they did not fit in any of the categories that included, “White, Afro-Caribbean, Asian, Black African, and Others”.  The British refused to categorize them as Arabs so they settled for “Sudanese Arab”. When the question why not to tick on the category of Black African was raised, the immediate response was that, “but we are not blacks”.  Their Southern Sudanese counterparts (this was before the separation) had no problem identifying themselves as African.

So are they now called “Northern Sudanese Arab”? Lol!  grin grin grin grin

3 Likes

Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by nolongTing: 11:28am On Sep 16, 2011
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by Rgp92: 12:19pm On Sep 16, 2011
lol
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by ababda: 5:55pm On Sep 16, 2011
It depends on what Northern Sudanese group you are talking about or refering to, since i am Copic Sudanese that lives in New Zealand arabism does not applies to me . Northern Sudan is increbibly diverse to be confide in a little box of black and white. Here is a good example of the Ja'alin tribe in Northern Sudan.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duTaW4Wb2v0&feature=player_embedded

The Ja'alin is one of the largest ethnic groups in Northern Sudan about 2 million strong.

Therefore, it depends on the person.

For example does this Manasir man looks like a Nigerian, In other words, you have some people in Northern Sudan mainly from the darfur area, and some of those people moved to Northern Sudan due to conflict that look traditionally Sub saharan, while many others don't. I hope this is not a hard concept to grasp, and if those who look traditional sub saharan and consider themselves arab, what business it is to you. It is their issue not yours


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmlIXrF0HU4&feature=related
Here is a typical day at a Northern Sudanese market. This is a American production!

I am not defending arabism,which i am definitely against, but at the same thime i am realistic

Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by morpheus24: 6:45pm On Sep 16, 2011
ababda:

It depends on what Northern Sudanese group you are talking about or refering to, since i am Copic Sudanese that lives in New Zealand arabism does not applies to me . Northern Sudan is increbibly diverse to be confide in a little box of black and white. Here is a good example of the Ja'alin tribe in Northern Sudan.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duTaW4Wb2v0&feature=player_embedded

The Ja'alin is one of the largest ethnic groups in Northern Sudan about 2 million strong.

Therefore, it depends on the person.

For example does this Manasir man looks like a Nigerian, In other words, you have some people in Northern Sudan mainly from the darfur area, and some of those people moved to Northern Sudan due to conflict that look traditionally Sub saharan, while many others don't. I hope this is not a hard concept to grasp, and if those who look traditional sub saharan and consider themselves arab, what business it is to you. It is their issue not yours


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmlIXrF0HU4&feature=related
Here is a typical day at a Northern Sudanese market. This is a American production!

I am not defending arabism,which i am definitely against, but at the same thime i am realistic



If you living on and most of your ancestry is derived from the African continetn wha t is wrong in ticking "african" on a census chart. What do you think a White south African should tick if you have the categories European or African
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by ababda: 6:48pm On Sep 16, 2011
Here are pictures of radom sudanese, op from your humble opinion what box should they check.This is the break down of Sudan, if we are going to go by looks. Northern Western Sudan, Typically looks similar to West Africans or the people in Chad, Most Sudanese in the Border of Egypt, and far North and North east Sudan looks similar to Upper Egyptians, Nubians in Egypt, and of course Eritreans, Ethiopians, and Somalis, however you have a Rashida(true arab) and hausa/fulani minority as well. However, the last group live in the darfur region as well, and make up a sizable foot soldiers for the Sudanese Military. What is now South Sudan in the Kordofan Region, most of the inhabitants is indistinguishable from Dinka and other nilotic groups. This is Sudan in a nut shell.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CwUYekLRDM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzH_YUpW0pM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHF6AhDh3Nc&feature=related
Sudanese student celebration having a graduation party. I guess this will be the new generation of Northern Sudanese, and God help them, they are into rap music now.

Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by ababda: 7:04pm On Sep 16, 2011
morpheus24:

If you living on and most of your ancestry is derived from the African continetn wha t is wrong in ticking "african" on a census chart. What do you think a White south African should tick if you have the categories European or African

You don't get any argument from me Morpheus, i am the first to check African on the census chart, but then again i am a Coptic Christian, therefore my views will be quite a contrast from my Muslim counter parts. Again, Morpheus it depends on the individual to determine this. However when it comes to race that is another matter all together for some(definitely not all) Northern Sudanese.
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by ababda: 8:04pm On Sep 16, 2011
Same question to the @Op what box should they check?

Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by ababda: 8:10pm On Sep 16, 2011
Again which racial box should they check?

Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by ababda: 8:34pm On Sep 16, 2011
Lastly what racial box should they check?

Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by morpheus24: 10:15pm On Sep 16, 2011
@ Ababda.

All the  pics you posted except for the possible "beja" looking dude you posted are all diversities that exist and have existed in Africa for millenia. Therefore they are all African and could possibly be further considered "black" if you extend it to the definitions used by eurocentric peoples. Coptic Egytians are ancient types of African descent originating from natufian cultures in Africa conviniently untouched by Arab muslim invastions into that region.

Arab is an ethnicity and language and not a race of people. Thefore any one who has a significant amount of Arab ancestry is Arab. The rest that originatein Africa are Arabized cultures of other ethnicities within Africa.

Plese note that every single pic you posted except for the Beja looking man can be cross referenced with any particular African American in the West phenotypically. The pint still remains the genetic predisposition is predominantly and has remained contained in Africa. So called Negro features is not an equivalent for Black peoples of Africa as is aspoused.
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by ababda: 10:48pm On Sep 16, 2011
ababda:

Same question to the @Op what box should they check?

Actually, the top guy is definitely not Beja, he is Rashida, the only ethnic group that came from the arabian peninsular back in the early part of the 19th century, and they are definitely a minority

This is typical Beja people. I know that the male dancers in definitely beja, but the women i am not certain, but anything possible since many groups intermarry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC4za3tSVQo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BTqb77Psto&feature=related

Here is another picture of the Rashida tribe men from North eastern Sudan, and i know you love anthropology Morpheus   an the photographer is Sudanese himsellf and he went around the entire country photographing the different ethnicity of the old Sudan.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vithassan/119755883/

Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by ababda: 11:09pm On Sep 16, 2011
@Morpheus I agree with everything you said, and as you know i been saying that for a very long time. However, i am at a point of my life to allow individual to choose what they want to be, eventhough i may disagree with their individual choice. Needless to say, when a stranger or alien insults your family, A person will  feel incline to defend a family member irregardless of  personal differences. Again i agree with everything you said  in reference to duplicates across the continent. A good example is this two females singers one from Northern Sudan the other from Mauritania. What is funny a American on the Sudanese forum brought this up, i never thought about it until now.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-N_dVugchs&feature=related

Northern Sudanese singer


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQlc1ozKLC4&feature=related
Mauritanian singer
They look nearly(not exactly) identical.
Persoanlly i think Sudan is the ethnic fault line of the various African peoples, which is quite obvious especially when you walk the streets in such places as Khartoum
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by tpia5: 11:20pm On Sep 16, 2011
@ ababda


racial classification is based on ethnicity and ancestral origins, not country.

so two people can be from the same country but tick different boxes for racial category.

one could be white, the other black.
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by ababda: 2:33am On Sep 17, 2011
@ Tpia

I agree with you as well Tpia. Sometimes i wish we could get rid of these racial and ethnic labels and be simply human. Obvious that is not going to happen, eventhough myself personally who is dark or brown in color and have so called typical horn of african features, however i am considered black, but i have few relatives who look awfully similar to this lady from this picture, i just wondering in the western world what racial group people like her will choose.

I do agree with Morpheus with the simple answer African, but unforunately in the western world they don't give you that option, but to state your actually racial background? therefore, your answer makes the most sense tpia

Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by tpia5: 2:35am On Sep 17, 2011
^^if she were in the US she'd probably go with white, since she is obviously of northern african origin.

northern african meaning araboid, and also includes egyptian.


US govt classifications:

Americans self-described as belonging to these racial groups:

White: those having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.

Black or African American: those having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa.


wiki
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by tpia5: 2:44am On Sep 17, 2011
An Arab American is a United States citizen or resident of Arab ethnic, cultural and linguistic heritage and/or identity, and who identifies themselves as Arab. Arab Americans trace ancestry to any of the various waves of immigrants of the countries comprising the Arab World. Americans descended from immigrants of the Arab world via other countries are also included.

Countries of origin for Arab Americans include Lebanon, Syria, Palestine (Gaza Strip and West Bank, plus Arab citizens of Israel), Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Bahrain, and Kuwait in West Asia and Libya, Sudan, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt and Morocco (plus also Sahrawis from the disputed Western Sahara) in North Africa.



In contrast to Europe and Canada, Arabs in the United States are classified as white by government agencies.


Others yet call for "Arab Americans" to be re-classified as an "ethnicity" with the option to then choose a racial category such as White, Black, mixed, or other, as "Hispanics" currently do.

In 2010, a group of Arab-Americans in Orange County, California, launched a campaign with the slogan "check it right, you ain't White"[10] to encourage Arabs to check the box that says "Other" when filling out their 2010 United States Census form and identify themselves as "Arab" or their specific country of origin.






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Americans
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by ababda: 2:51am On Sep 17, 2011
tpia@:

^^if she were in the US she'd probably go with white, since she is obviously of northern african origin.

northern african meaning araboid, and also includes egyptian.


US govt classifications:


wiki

The weird thing about that Tpia, you see this within families and ethnic groups, for example i am black or brown color and look very similar to upper egyptians and eritreans, and i have a sister who is similar to the lady i posted, therefore, if we moved to the United States, my family will be racially divided ? according to amerian standards, i guess? I see thise as being problematic to some of my relatives in the United States, i have to ask them this the next time i visit America.
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by tpia5: 2:59am On Sep 17, 2011
^^yes, you should ask them.

i'm guessing they'll probably go with whatever colour their dad is.

if he's dark, then black, or african. If he's light, with straight hair, then most likely that would be north african, or white. I'm not sure though.

the general rule however, tends to the theory that any relatively recent admixture of black blood makes you black.

sudanese come in all colours, true.
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by ababda: 3:18am On Sep 17, 2011
tpia@:

^^yes, you should ask them.

i'm guessing they'll probably go with whatever colour their dad is.

if he's dark, then black, or african. If he's light, with straight hair, then most likely that would be north african, or white. I'm not sure though.

the general rule however, tends to the theory that any relatively recent admixture of black blood makes you black.

sudanese come in all colours, true.

This western racial categories system is definitely not workable and it divides people and families, since race suppost to be geographical, when a dark skinn person from edfu(upper egypt) go to America are they suddenly going to become white, since they geographically located in North Africa because you have many dark faces in egypt as least 20 percent.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/neekinator/2581839641/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/neekinator/2581850027/in/photostream/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIVCpzSQTPc
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by tpia5: 3:20am On Sep 17, 2011
^^they'd be black if their skin colour is black.

if either of the parents is black [especially the father], then the children are black even if they're light skinned and with straight hair.

i think that's how it works for everyone who is non-hispanic.

however, technically, they can go with the egyptian model. Since they're arabs, they can just check in the caucasian box which is based on ancestral origins.

besides, here's another photo from your link:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/neekinator/2582674808/in/photostream/

they're white.
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by ababda: 3:39am On Sep 17, 2011
tpia@:

^^they'd be black if their skin colour is black.

if either of the parents is black [especially the father], then the children are black even if they're light skinned and with straight hair.

i think that's how it works for everyone who is non-hispanic.

however, technically, they can go with the egyptian model. Since they're arabs, they can just check in the caucasian box which is based on ancestral origins.

besides, here's another photo from your link:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/neekinator/2582674808/in/photostream/

they're white.
I agree in egypt they are considered that white as well or wheat color, whereas the people i posted is considered darkskinn or typical saidee or upper Egyptian. As far as the arab thingy, Some Egyptians don't considered themselves arabs, but simply Egyptians, and some do, therefore it depends on the person, as far as defining themselves, and all copts in Egypt and Northern Sudan don't consider themselves arabs at all, including myself.
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by tpia5: 3:44am On Sep 17, 2011
^^copts are still white, i believe.

egyptian copts during a service:





not sure about the darker ones however.
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by tpia5: 3:45am On Sep 17, 2011
Sudan has a native Coptic minority, although many Copts in Sudan are descended from more recent Egyptian immigrants.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copts#Demographics
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by ababda: 3:54am On Sep 17, 2011
You cannot goes by pictures alone Tpia until you meet many of us. however, within each group of people you have a diversity of people., some are fair some are dark. Here is one of our Reverend  of the coptic church from Sudan, he looks like a typical horner/northern sudanese or upper egypt.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/africa/2010/04/19/sudans-copts-pray-smooth-election

Here is a article of the copts in Northern Sudan.

Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by tpia5: 3:57am On Sep 17, 2011
^^some sudanese copts are dark no doubt, but they generally seem to be white.

here's a website i found, with photos:

http://www.sudanesecoptic.com/sitebuilder/gallery/anniversary/anniversary.html

they're 99% white.

not sure if the one dark person there is just a visitor or something.

http://www.sudanesecoptic.com/
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by ababda: 4:02am On Sep 17, 2011
tpia@:

^^copts are still white, i believe.

egyptian copts during a service:





not sure about the darker ones however.

That is true Many of the Copts in Sudan came from egypt, Also if you remember your history at one time Northern Sudan was Christian, and follow the Coptic teaching. Likewise, many Northern Sudanese reconverted to the Coptic faith as well, especially when egypt and sudan was one country, many reconvert married into coptic as well.

He is a little history lesson of Christianity in Northern Sudan.
http://rumkatkilise.org/nubia.htm
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by ababda: 4:05am On Sep 17, 2011
No Tpia, he is the head of the Coptic Church in Northern Sudan, unforunately he is also the member of the National party. NCP and i have a bone of contention against him for joining the NCP.
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by tpia5: 4:06am On Sep 17, 2011
ababda:

That is true Many of the Copts in Sudan came from egypt, Also if you remember your history at one time Northern Sudan was Christian, and follow the Coptic teaching. Likewise, many Northern Sudanese reconverted to the Coptic faith as well, especially when egypt and sudan was one country, many reconvert married into coptic as well.

He is a little history lesson of Christianity in Northern Sudan.
http://rumkatkilise.org/nubia.htm




^^interesting.

i think the confusion here is from the religious classification, which used to be the norm in ancient times.

nowadays, race is based on other factors, not only religion.
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by pleep(m): 4:57am On Sep 17, 2011
ababda:

and hausa/fulani minority as well. However, the last group live in the darfur region as well, and make up a sizable foot soldiers for the Sudanese Military. What is now South Sudan in the Kordofan Region, most of the inhabitants is indistinguishable from Dinka and other nilotic groups. This is Sudan in a nut shell.


i have a question for you ababda! what side of the conflict was the hausa/fulani minority on? do they align themselves with the Darfur muslims or the N. Sudanese muslims?
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by pleep(m): 5:03am On Sep 17, 2011
i have neighbors from N. Sudan, they look like Ethiopian or Somali people, just a little different. The Man and son would defiantly be considered black because they are very dark, but the wife is a little more arabicish looking.
Re: Northern Sudanese People And Their Inferiority Complex by ababda: 7:19am On Sep 17, 2011
pleep:

i have a question for you ababda! what side of the conflict was the hausa/fulani minority on? do they align themselves with the Darfur muslims or the N. Sudanese muslims?

That is a good question pleeps, when the last time i visited relatives in Sudan everyone was focused on the split of the country, in other words, generally no one really talked about Darfur, also i had a little of language issues as well, I can speak passable arabic, but i cannot  write in the language, however i am in the process of correcting that. What is ironic about the Darfur situation is more that sixty percent of the Sudanese foot soldiers is of Darfuri origin, so most likely some of these soldiers are hausa/fulani also. It is hard to say, i think the rebels is a combinatiion of all ethnic groups from that region. That is a very good question, pleeps!

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