mbatuku2:

Yes. If it's not Igbo, it has to be something.

But how are you sure its not Igbo?

mbatuku2:

No big deal, really, ezeagu. If some people have no qualms that their progenitors come as far as Mecca, this is not far-fetched.

Aros also claim a jewish origin too.

A lot of groups claim semitic origin, or should I say a lot of members of Nigerian groups claim. The problem is that most didn't even know what a Hebew was before 1850. The whole "Jewish" thing really is embarrassing. "Jewish" isn't even what the Hebrews and Israelites called themselves.

ada - ide:

its not far fetched. though there is no proof. alot of igbo idoms and proverbs, have the same meaning with Hebrew ones esp. when translated directly. you might be right after all.

Do you think it's only with far-flung Israel that Igbo people share cultural similarity with?

ezeagu:


"Jewish" isn't even what the Hebrews and Israelites called themselves.

That's not true. They did call themselves 'jews' and 'hebrew'.

Do you remember that Pilate asked Jesus if he was king of the Jews? (INRI) - John 19 vs 19

The 'hebrew' name is very obvious.

That's a translated Bible. Jewish people today don't even call themselves Jewish or Jew in their language.

ezeagu:

That's a translated Bible. Jewish people today don't even call themselves Jewish or Jew in their language.

Do you know the meaning of 'jew'?

Yehudi, Judah.

ezeagu:

Yehudi, Judah.

Thank you. It means belonging to Judah. The jews call themselves 'yehudim' in hebrew. The romans referred to them in latin as 'Iudaeus' or 'Judaeus'. It's the English that anglicized it to 'jews'. The Germans call them 'der juden', copied directly from hebrew.

'Hebrew' is the anglicized form of 'ibri/ivri' or, which the hebrews call themselves in their own tongue.

@ mbatuku2,

The only thing I'll add to your Hebrew stuff is that there's no way Jews, a few million people, could have been the origin of Igbos numbering over 30 millions.

If there was ever any connection between us, then it might be that a handful of Hebrews mixed up with already settled Igbos or Igbo gave birth to Hebrew.

I really want us to end this Israeli connection.

Obiagu1:

@ mbatuku2,

The only thing I'll add to your Hebrew stuff is that there's no way Jews, a few million people, could have been the origin of Igbos numbering over 30 millions.

If there was ever any connection between us, then it might be that a handful of Hebrews mixed up with already settled Igbos or Igbo gave birth to Hebrew.

I really want us to end this Israeli connection.

It's quite difficult to peg the exact number of jews that have ever existed. The jews were pillaged and thrown about by invading conquerers over the milleniums. The present resettled Israelis today mostly trace their ancestry to only 2 out of the 12 tribes of Israel. If only 2 out of the 12 tribes could produce millions of people today, imagine what number the lost 10 tribes would have amounted to. Many of them have been assimilated as full europeans, and some dispersed all over Africa, even deep down as Malawi, there are groups who claim jewish origins.   

I'm cool with the Israeli connection, what I dont want is the belief of Igbos coming from different origins(which doesn't add up anyway. How come we speak one tongue and what are the dead languages?) which is not healthy for our unity.

Acknowledging our common origin puts to rest all divisive speculations of origin, and we can make progress as one people.

It has NOTHING to do with Israel. Why do you all wish to throw away your history? A quick search on wikipedia tells us that Nri was a kingdom in Igboland that collapsed when the British invaded. This article is collected from at least 20 sources.

The Kingdom of Nri (948—1911) was the West African medieval state of the Nri-Igbo, a subgroup of the Igbo people, and is the oldest kingdom in Nigeria.[2] The Kingdom of Nri was unusual in the history of world government in that its leader exercised no military power over his subjects. The kingdom existed as a sphere of religious and political influence over much of Igboland, and was administered by a priest-king called the eze Nri. The eze Nri managed trade and diplomacy on behalf of the Igbo people, and possessed divine authority in religious matters.

The kingdom was a safe haven for all those who had been rejected in their communities and also a place where slaves were set free from their bondage. Nri expanded through converts gaining neighboring communities' allegiance, not by force. Nri's royal founder, Eri, is said to be a 'sky being' that came down to earth and then established civilization. One of the better-known remnants of the Nri civilization is its art, as manifested in the Igbo Ukwu bronze items.

Stop trying to connect with the same whites selling you across the ocean!

mbatuku2:

what I dont want is the belief of Igbos coming from different origins

But they do. . . .

mbatuku2:

What I dont want is the belief of Igbos coming from different origins

Are you serious?

What connection does this Jew stuff talk have to do with the meaning of Nri? The non-Jew origin of the name seems pretty clear to me, and I'm not Nri.

ezeagu:

But they do. . . .

It's the same people who were separated at a point in time. We cant all speak the same tongue if we were different peoples.

mbatuku2:

It's the same people who were separated at a point in time. We cant all speak the same tongue if we were different peoples.

Igbo people didn't all come from one place.

Speaking the same tongue (or better put, being able to communicate) does not equate to being the same people. The only thing it actually shows is interaction, but seriously though, why are you saying these things? You can't possibly believe them, unless of course you don't know.

ezeagu:

Igbo people didn't all come from one place.

In your mind, that is. Most believe they come from one source. You few argumentative types wont change that view.

ChinenyeN:

Speaking the same tongue (or better put, being able to communicate) does not equate to being the same people. The only thing it actually shows is interaction, but seriously though, why are you saying these things? You can't possibly believe them, unless of course you don't know.

What then were the different tongues and from how many source?

ChinenyeN:

What connection does this Jew stuff talk have to do with the meaning of Nri? The non-Jew origin of the name seems pretty clear to me, and I'm not Nri.

No one has said everyone is from Nri. But we are of the same source as Nri.

mbatuku2:

What then were the different tongues and from how many source?

You're Ngwa. How can you not know this? Alright, let's take our people for example.

1. There's a reason why we call Aro, Abam, Abiriba, etc. "nmogh", though we can now communicate with them.

2. "Ohuhu". The original Ohuhu are our ethnic kin, now primarily in the Ezinihite LGA. Some time in later history, strangers (who neither spoke nor understood our tongue) began showing up in the area. We had no name for them, and we didn't know who they were. So, we called them "ohuhu", because they came from the Ohuhu side of the Imo (either settling on that side or later deciding to cross the Imo to settle on our side). Now, there's a reason why we call all "ohuhu" mbiarambiara (foreigners). Yet, we can communicate with them. As an Ngwa, you should know this. Likewise, you should also know that we are not the same people as them.

3. What this all means is simple. The fact that there is now some degree of intelligibility does not at all mean that we come/came from "the same source". Being able to communicate only speaks for interaction. It doesn't speak for lineage or descent.

mbatuku2:

No one has said everyone is from Nri. But we are of the same source as Nri.

That my comment, which you were responding to was about the source of the name "Nri" and not necessarily the source of the people. Although, I will still gladly respond to the above quote by saying "no, we are not".

ChinenyeN:

You're Ngwa. How can you not know this? Alright, let's take our people for example.

1. There's a reason why we call Aro, Abam, Abiriba, etc. "nmogh", though we can now communicate with them.

2. "Ohuhu". The original Ohuhu are our ethnic kin, now primarily in the Ezinihite LGA. [b]Some time in later history, strangers (who neither spoke nor understood our tongue) began showing up in the area. We had no name for them, and we didn't know who they were. So, we called them "ohuhu", because they came from the Ohuhu side of the Imo (either settling on that side or later deciding to cross the Imo to settle on our side). [/b]Now, there's a reason why we call all "ohuhu" mbiarambiara (foreigners). Yet, we can communicate with them. As an Ngwa, you should know this. Likewise, you should also know that we are not the same people as them.

3. What this all means is simple. The fact that there is now some degree of intelligibility does not at all mean that we come/came from "the same source". Being able to communicate only speaks for interaction. It doesn't speak for lineage or descent.
That my comment, which you were responding to was about the source of the name "Nri" and not necessarily the source of the people. Although, I will still gladly respond to the above quote by saying "no, we are not".

This is not correct, all Ohuhus(in the broader sense) still refer to Igbo-speaking peoples. I've never heard of non-Igbos being called that. I know we call 'akwa-cross' people 'imi nkita' since they were foreigners who we didn't understand their tongue and they were obviously not 'Ohuhus', our distant kins.

We also calling the new Igbo immigrants Ohuhu still affirms my point that we viewed them as being like our distant kins since they spoke like us.

It seems you did not at all read my post very well. "Ohuhu" is a colloquial term for stranger. It does not mean "Igbo-speaking person/people". In fact, the meaning of the term "ohuhu" has nothing to do with "Igbo". This is common knowledge any Ngwa ought to have. Furthermore, we differentiate between Ohuhu, our ethnic kin, and "ohuhu", the strangers, and the reason why these strangers are called "ohuhu" is not because we have some kinship with them that you're trying to imagine, because we don't. So don't twist the use of "ohuhu" like that. We call these people "ohuhu" simply because we had no name for them. We didn't know who they were, but they made their way from the Ohuhu side of the Imo. They were clear foreigners, because unlike our Ohuhu ethnic kin, these strangers neither spoke nor understood our tongue.

By the way, "ohuhu" has since evolved a general meaning for any and everything non-Ngwa, "Igbo" or not.

mbatuku2:

We also calling the new Igbo immigrants Ohuhu still affirms my point that we viewed them as being like our distant kins since they spoke like us.

No. It does not in any way affirm anything you have said, because we do not call our Ohuhu kin mbiarambiara, only the "ohuhu" strangers.

I'll need to confirm your broad use of 'ohuhu' from a friend that lives in Aba. I've not been able to get the person online.

I've never heard 'ohuhu' used for non-Igbos.

mbatuku2:

In your mind, that is. Most believe they come from one source. You few argumentative types wont change that view.

Not in my mind, in history books and folktales. The Igbo are a group formed form some ancient migrations of people. What you're thinking I'm saying is that every Igbo group is from somewhere else. Think about it like this: you have your mother and your father, but you are one.

mbatuku2:

I'll need to confirm your broad use of 'ohuhu' from a friend that lives in Aba. I've not been able to get the person online.
I've never heard 'ohuhu' used for non-Igbos.

When you think of "ohuhu", don't think in terms of "Igbo" and "non-Igbo". That's where (at least to me it seems) you're having issues. "Ohuhu" is not an "Igbo" or "non-Igbo" identifier. It has nothing to do with "Igbo people". I can give you the stages for the development of the colloquialism, "ohuhu".

Stage 1: Ohuhu are our ethnic kin on the western side of the Imo.
Stage 2: Foreign elements made their way to us from the Ohuhu side of the Imo and began settling around us. "Ohuhu" then became the general term we used to identify these strangers who came and settled to the west and north of us. So any people, north and west of Ngwa were known to us as "ohuhu" (strangers).
Stage 3: With the growing exposure to other strangers, "ohuhu" becomes general colloquialism for anything/anyone non-Ngwa, non-indigenous/foreign.

**NOTE: We do not call anyone from Asa, Ndoki, Etche or Ikwere "ohuhu". I would think you'd already know all of this. Why do you need to verify from a friend all the way in Aba. Have you not thought to call your parents and uncles, or anyone from your local Ngwa chapter (I'm assuming you have one)?

ezeagu:

Not in my mind, in history books and folktales. The Igbo are a group formed form some ancient migrations of people. What you're thinking I'm saying is that every Igbo group is from somewhere else. Think about it like this: you have your mother and your father, but you are one.

What ancient migrations? From where?

ChinenyeN:

When you think of "ohuhu", don't think in terms of "Igbo" and "non-Igbo". That's where (at least to me it seems) you're having issues. "Ohuhu" is not an "Igbo" or "non-Igbo" identifier. It has nothing to do with "Igbo people". I can give you the stages for the development of the colloquialism, "ohuhu".

Stage 1: Ohuhu are our ethnic kin on the western side of the Imo.
Stage 2: Foreign elements made their way to us from the Ohuhu side of the Imo and began settling around us. "Ohuhu" then became the general term we used to identify these strangers who came and settled to the west and north of us. So any people, north and west of Ngwa were known to us as "ohuhu" (strangers).
Stage 3: With the growing exposure to other strangers, "ohuhu" becomes general colloquialism for anything/anyone non-Ngwa, non-indigenous/foreign.

**NOTE: We do not call anyone from Asa, Ndoki, Etche or Ikwere "ohuhu". I would think you'd already know all of this. Why do you need to verify from a friend all the way in Aba. Have you not thought to call your parents and uncles, or anyone from your local Ngwa chapter (I'm assuming you have one)?

What is the meaning of Ohuhu?

mbatuku2:

What ancient migrations? From where?

Ancient pre-historic migrations from the east.

ezeagu:


Ancient pre-historic migrations from the east.

This is really a cyclic argument. Back to the point I was driving at- We Igbo came from one source(the east).

Even Dr Elizabeth Isichei acknowledges this in one of her books, though she avoided being specific.

mbatuku2:

This is really a cyclic argument. Back to the point I was driving at- We Igbo came from one source(the east).

Even Dr Elizabeth Isichei acknowledges this in one of her books, though she avoided being specific.

The migration[b]s[/b] didn't all happen at the same time.

ezeagu:

The migration[b]s[/b] didn't all happen at the same time.

I'm in complete agreement with you. That's the more reason why I believe we are the same people to end up having one tongue and no trace of any dead language(s).

ezeagu:

What is the meaning of Ohuhu?

'Ndi ohuhu' means those who like to roast their yams.

@ ChinenyeN
are you saying that your people can from no where bc of all archaeological survey, Australopithecus garhi remains the oldest, in Africa. Have you noticed that apart from Nigeria there is no other place igbo is spoken. i believe that there is every likelyhood we came from thesame place though not at the same time. and the village wars we fought against each other is a factor in establishing our history bc some groups were alienated, some were force to move to another side, while smaller groups moved towards stronger ones for protection. how sure are you that the ohuhu people were not your brothers who moved during crisis but later moved back (obviously the offsprings). Do you know that there are Ohofia people in oraukwu of anambra state where they are not regarded as strangers. if the descendants move back to ohaofia, will they be considered strangers bc they cant point out their father's obi? However, our language remains that big clause that holds us together. Dr Elizabeth Isichei is a good author to read. she recounted a lot of issues as told by very old/dead forefathers. even the original igbo writting technique. Its interesting.

mbatuku2:

I'm in complete agreement with you. That's the more reason why I believe we are the same people to end up having one tongue and no trace of any dead language(s).

'Ndi ohuhu' means those who like to roast their yams.

I've never thought of this before. Anyone that argues otherwise should immediately provide us the names of those dead languages in present Igboland. If the person can't, he/she should STFU!

It never ceases to amaze me how eager some are to poo on centuries of whole traditions, just over speculation. I say speculation because there is no proof; no real justification, and no, linguistics is neither proof nor justification. Scholarly linguists will tell you that language only shows how a people have interacted, both internally and externally. It is not a deciding factor of ethnicity or descent.

Honestly, the only thing being achieved here is that people are taking weak guesswork and holding on to it as if it were fact.

ada - ide:

how sure are you that the ohuhu people were not your brothers who moved during crisis but later moved back (obviously the offsprings).

Ohuhu also acknowledges these strangers, but in their case, the strangers were assimilated. Ngwa, on the other hand, still recognizes them as mbiarambiara.