TC,

I enjoyed your response.  It will be trifling for me to rebutt the responses in bits but I do want to say you and I, as with many others, see these things from a whole different perspective. 

I am processing the total information from their absolute value. 

If a woman comes to me with a child and says Negro this is your baby, all I need to do is look on the child for images of myself. They are either there or not. Images of myself will be my physical attributes or attributes of close family members. Somewhere on that child my family attributes will be visible. If there are no such visibility, then the child is not truthfully mine, end of story, I don't need a dna test. Same thing with death. If a man was shot and killed, then the matter of what he dies from is already decided and there should be no need for autopsy to determine cause of death.

Doing dna test to decide fatherhood on a child that looks like my twin or performing autopsy on someone killed by bullets is nothing more than an insult on the natural endowments of faculties of divine enlightenement and wisdom. Someone has figured a way to generate income by styling these stupidities as intelligence. We are shutting out God in preference for man's order in natural ability to intuitively discerrn, recognize and process.

Looking at the Obatala/Bes figures, how would you conclude on the Ife link to Egypt? Would you wait on the experts to uncover or unearth links or would you exercise independent thought and faculty of discernment to speak to the truth of what your soul recognizes in these two arts? If these two arts, using them as samples out of many, are not a physical evidence of a direct link, then I don't know anything else that will be. . . . except maybe what western education endorses and stamps authoritatively as a link.

If we ignore our inner ear and shut out our third eye to follow blindly behind European philosophy for empirical proofing, then we will forever remain a copying and mimicking society, never bold and courageous enough to originate , no matter how much accolades ofacademic honors are prefixed to our names. This our timidity from originating and advancing thoughts is transparent, hence, Africans have many historians who have studied European history but none is recognized as a global authority in that field. If we cannot be authority for originating our own truths, others will no doubt dismiss our scholarship, however credible it is, at propagating the origin of their truths.

So I ask again, to everyone who dismiss any link between Ife and Egyot to look at these duplicated figures, whether in terracotta or brass, and prove that Ife and Egypt were not chain-linked. These are only in physical and we are not even in the mystical yet. . . . in the mystical realm, you will be shocked to discover what that sitting figure is doing with one leg upright and the other resting on ground. You all have heard about chakras from Europeans and Orientals but never from your own Yoruba people, well these figures are telling you some of the things you didn't know your culture had.

Thanks for the response. I think your examples--the DNA tests and autopsies--are a good example of where we differ on our approach and I'll leave it at that.

Despite what you might believe, I agree that we have to interpret art and culture through a spiritual lens. There's no way to be knowledgeable about Yoruba culture without being conversant in the indigenous religious beliefs of its makers. It's actually another point of emphasis for the uniqueness of Yoruba art. For example, in many of the most naturalistic Ife bronzes and terracottas, the size of the head is exaggerated to reflect the concept of 'ori inu' to about one-quarter of the size of the body. This is a deliberate portrayal of the importance of 'ori inu' for a people who were skillful enough to make sculptures of any lifelike proportion. As Ifa verses record to and the various ibori and iponri shrines verify, the head has been considered the spiritual seat in Yoruba culture for a long time and each individual is believed to have their own ori to worship along with whatever deities they choose (or that chooses them). This is not a feature we find in Greek, Egyptian, Mesopotamian or (as far as I know) Atlantean cultures. If the concept is found in those other cultures, it doesn't seem to be as revered and emphasized as it for Ife and other cognate cultures. This, for me, is far more potent proof of an indigenous Yoruba concept than the possible resemblance of Bes and the deformed person depicted in the terracotta. By the way, Physics, Obatala doesn't seem to have been depicted often in sculptures. Most Yoruba deities were represented by their symbols and not humanized sculptures--Ogun and his machete or anvil; Osoosi and the bow and arrow; Shango and his ose axe etc. Esu is one of the rare exceptions and it seems to be related to his role as a guardian. I can't say definitively that the sculpture isn't Obatala, but as Lakal pointed out, the deformed and handicapped are considered his special charges since he's thought to have made them that way. That probably accounts for the identification. Here's my all-time favorite essay on Obatala with some very relevant information on Oduduwa which I alluded to in earlier posts but which I won't comment on at present due to Physics' request. (Suffice to say I think both the Oni of Ife and the Oba of Benin may revise their mythological beliefs if they looked into this issue more closely and read Ajayi Crowther and the early accounts of Ife origins). The essay's written by the brilliant art historian Babatunde Lawal: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0438/is_1_41/ai_n24327210/ . It's long but absolutely worth the read. Here's a relevant excerpt for those who won't want to read the whole thing:

As mentioned earlier, Oduduwa reportedly created the earth out of the primeval waters. But one version of the creation narrative claims that Olodumare first asked Obatala to do it, giving him a hen and a bag of sacred sand. Unfortunately, Obatala got drunk after receiving the sacred instruments of his commission and fell asleep by the roadside. It was an opportune moment for Oduduwa: He picked up the sacred instruments, descended from the sky and created the first land at Ile-Ife, the cultural capital of the Yoruba. When Obatala woke up and discovered what had happened, he challenged Oduduwa and a fierce fight ensued. Olodumare later settled the rift and gave Obatala another task-to mold the image of the first human. Strangely enough, some legends identify the same Oduduwa as a powerful warrior and the leader of an immigrant group that invaded Ile-Ife in the first millennium of the Christian era. After conquering the aboriginal population headed by Obatala, Oduduwa established himself as a divine king in Ile-Ife, from where his descendants spread to other parts of Yorubaland, founding new kingdoms, sometimes peacefully and sometimes by force of arms. The resolution of the Oduduwa-Obatala conflict in Ile-Ife led to the formation of a government based on the rotation of the kingship between the two warring parties. Initially, the descendants of Obatala took charge of spiritual affairs, while those of Oduduwa controlled the political realm (Johnson 1913-14, Beier n.d.:25-32, Stevens 1966:184-99, Adedeji 1972:321-29, Law 1973:207-22, Eluyemi 1985:20, Smith 1988:3-12, 14-27, Adediran 1992:77-95, Adediran and Arifalo 1992:305-17).

As Oduduwa, the male warrior, gained the upper hand in the dynastic conflict, why is he associated with the bottom/female half of the calabash and not the top? Or does the bottom half represent the temporal powers of Oduduwa, the first divine king of Ile-Ife? (6) I have been unable yet to elicit a categorical answer to these questions from field informants. Suffice it to say that the alleged conflict between the two orisa may very well explain why Oduduwa now has a double identity, being worshipped as a male deity in much of eastern Yorubaland, but as another aspect of Ile, female Earth, in the western part. Oddly enough, those who regard Oduduwa as a male orisa still occasionally address him as Iya Imole ('Mother of the Divinities'; Idowu 1994:22-5).

As for the seated Tada figure, I'm interested in hearing your interpretation of the pose. There are many postures and poses in Yoruba (and generally West African) culture with specific meanings and art historians have written some interesting work on this (see Suzanne Preston Blier for more). You might throw light on some new directions for them here. Keep in mind that the Tada figure was actually found in a Nupe village and has several unique properties, even though it's clearly related to the Ife style.

Thanks for the response. I think your examples--the DNA tests and autopsies--are a good example of where we differ on our approach and I'll leave it at that.

TC,

My brother, make sure I am not given an autopsy in case I die in the act of making more babies.

Despite what you might believe, I agree that we have to interpret art and culture through a spiritual lens. There's no way to be knowledgeable about Yoruba culture without being conversant in the indigenous religious beliefs of its makers. It's actually another point of emphasis for the uniqueness of Yoruba art. For example, in many of the most naturalistic Ife bronzes and terracottas, the size of the head is exaggerated to reflect the concept of 'ori inu' to about one-quarter of the size of the body. This is a deliberate portrayal of the importance of 'ori inu' for a people who were skillful enough to make sculptures of any lifelike proportion. As Ifa verses record to and the various ibori and iponri shrines verify, the head has been considered the spiritual seat in Yoruba culture for a long time and each individual is believed to have their own ori to worship along with whatever deities they choose (or that chooses them). This is not a feature we find in Greek, Egyptian, Mesopotamian or (as far as I know) Atlantean cultures. If the concept is found in those other cultures, it doesn't seem to be as revered and emphasized as it for Ife and other cognate cultures. This, for me, is far more potent proof of an indigenous Yoruba concept than the possible resemblance of Bes and the deformed person depicted in the terracotta.

Hmmm, well, may God Almighty open our Ori to the Glory of his wisdom. You know, I read these segment once, stepped away, came back and read it again, stepped away a second time. I returned and read it a third time and sat and contemplated for about 15mins.

Let us reflect on something very significant - origin of civilization and root of a race.

What is civilization? To me, civilization is the creation and projection of a new world order. Civilization spring up when an old order dies off and a new one begins. Yorubas had a civilization but Ife did not. What world order did Ife create?

As it applies to humans, what is a race? To me, race is a rhythym. Different race of people have different rhythymic response to nature elements. The elements being the causation, the people are forced to adapt an effective behavioral and characteristic patterns in response for safeguarding and assuring continuity of their specie. The Yoruba has adapted in the savannah and the forest but it has still, remnants in its consciousness of an existence outside of its current home.

You talked about the head being considered the spiritual seat of power in Yorubaland and also that Oramiyan was a title. You have not heard this from me yet because we set objective not to stray outside of physical realms in our evaluations. I agree, Oramiyan is a title. I do not agree that Resh, Yod is not etched into the staff. Culturally what is Resh? It means head or sovereign. Yod is an attribute of the mightiness of YHWH. Resh and yod together means a mighty sovereignty. In the grounding of the stone the ritual act was to invoke a divine beginning for the supremacy of this settling race. It is also sometimes referred to as "Opa Ashe". It was a divine grounding rod in Egyptian culture. Ashe itself is derived from root word Arsh, which stands for the Divine Throne, because anything uttered in its name is assured to manifest. I have said many times here that our language is cryptic. Look at this. . . .in Yoruba, bere (begin) is derived from ere (mud) which is what God used when he commanded the earth to issue forth mist from the ground and with that he mixed earth from which he created the human form. In Old Hebrew, bere stands for beginning. They are all from root letter Resh denoting in that context, head or first.

There are so much to say about head but I will stop here.

As Oduduwa, the male warrior, gained the upper hand in the dynastic conflict, why is he associated with the bottom/female half of the calabash and not the top? Or does the bottom half represent the temporal powers of Oduduwa, the first divine king of Ile-Ife? (6) I have been unable yet to elicit a categorical answer to these questions from field informants. Suffice it to say that the alleged conflict between the two orisa may very well explain why Oduduwa now has a double identity, being worshipped as a male deity in much of eastern Yorubaland, but as another aspect of Ile, female Earth, in the western part. Oddly enough, those who regard Oduduwa as a male orisa still occasionally address him as Iya Imole ('Mother of the Divinities'; Idowu 1994:22-5).

Divinity is a paired opposite. This is the theme in Ifa. If you are Christian go and read Genesis in the part where Noah is instructed on how to embark the Ark and you will see evidence of this. The psalms of David are particularly heavy with these attributes. If you are Muslim go to chapter 57, Surah Rahman - my favorite chapter - and in there you will see the same signature of paired opposites in this poetic message. In fact the poetry of this surah, in recitation, sound like a verse out of an odu of Ifa.

As for the seated Tada figure, I'm interested in hearing your interpretation of the pose. There are many postures and poses in Yoruba (and generally West African) culture with specific meanings and art historians have written some interesting work on this (see Suzanne Preston Blier for more). You might throw light on some new directions for them here. Keep in mind that the Tada figure was actually found in a Nupe village and has several unique properties, even though it's clearly related to the Ife style.

We are not into the mystical interpretation yet. I am not interested in art history but mystical revelations. The sitting position is the elemental pose - earth, water, fire and air. It is used for bringing about a metaphysical aspect to manifest in the physical. The crown chakra is ususally covered but the base chakra has to be grounded. As far as the image or art being surplus and distributed amongst different people, yes that's true but the knowledge is also common only amongst certain peoples who are already civilized and evolved in that mystic cult. Why doesn't the Hausas or the Igbos have it? Its because the cult does not belong in savannah Africa, it belongs in AfroAsia. Any race of people in subsahara that has that knowledge has roots in AfroAsia.

See below pic.

[img][/img]

I don't see the link to chakras or the various Semitic language roots you posted. Your references to Christian and Muslim scriptures take us back to the issues that Sultan Bello and Reverend Johnson had with locating the origin of Yoruba and others in Biblical/Quranic Holy Lands. These are simply not relevant because the people of classical Ifa were almost certainly not Christians, Jews or Muslims. It would be like interpreting Ife culture through Hindu scriptures or Native American religions. I've said enough though.

The first super trade post was the River Niger

Rgp92:

Dont every use the word sub sahara. Use South of Sahara or west Africa instead.

point taken

Rgp92:

We should stop all this nonsense, Yoruba is an Africa Civilization, we're not proto semetic stop it already. Semetic is not a good thing

Would be glad to see you refuting this with substantive evidence. This is NOT a fallacy but years of research. Moreover, what is your notion of semetic?

Negro_Ntns:

Yorubas had a civilization but Ife did not. 

I'm not going to go into the semantics but would point out that every single Yoruba civilisations owes its legacy to Ife, hence the term Ife civilisation(s)

Negro_Ntns:

As it applies to humans, what is a race?   To me, race is a rhythym.  Different race of people have different rhythymic response to nature elements. 

Race is a discourse in nonsense. All people who discuss race as if it is a self evident reality - must eventually ground their own discourse down into nonsense.

For clarity:

Geneticists do indeed claim that races do not exist.

Spencer Wells: Biologically race has no meaning.

CL Brace: "African entails Black, but Black does not entail African".

Geneticists do indeed claim that skin color is not racial.

Jablonski: Skin color is of no value in assessing the phylogenetic relationships between human groups

They do *not* claim that skin color is not genetic.

Ethnicity yes, race NO

[quote ]
Oramiyan was a title.
[quote][/quote]

This is NOT necessarily true.

Also would like to emphasize the fact that people of Western Africa preceeded ancient Egypt in terms of thousands of years, hence, much of the influence we detected between both cultures is said to have moved upwards and NOT downwards.

I'm not sure what's giving some the impression oranmiyan is a title when modern versions of that name still exist today eg abayomi.

Tpia--I mentioned the belief that Oranmiyan is a title. The claim comes from Reverend Johnson's "History". He writes:

"Oranmiyan was a nickname of the prince, his proper name being Odede." Like many aspects of the earliest records we have of Yoruba (and Benin) myths of origin, this detail has been ignored. As an aside, this little-known claim is not reflected in current court traditions at Ife, Oyo, Benin etc because the version of history you may hear from monarchs has political uses and a mythological foundation. It does not necessarily coincide with the true order of events or other independently-known facts. That's why the arguments over whose dynasty is senior to the other or who 'founded' whom are not historical issues but political ones (much like the modern arguments you see all over Nairaland). The popular 'court' versions of history you may read or hear are as accurate as the Biblical, Hindi or Aborigine versions of the creation of the world. They are important as mythological charters and they may even contain some remembered truth but it's not a substitute for more detailed historical or archaeological research.

Needless to say, I don't agree that Egyptians were the offspring of Yoruba people either. I don't want to derail the thread by adding more speculation though. There's a great deal of well-researched information on Egypt's origins and its links to the rest of Africa, its myths of origin, it's links to Punt (modern East Africa) and so on.

TC, If you do not understand the concept of mystical message does not in any way invalidate its visibility in these figures.  Remember that they are not just aesthetic forms for visual arts, they are many things. . . primary among their many functions is to communicate the message of the hidden and coded knowledge buried in them. 

The TADA figure is working with awakening of the thrid eye for enlightenement and the Egyptian figure is working with curbing the sacral chakra for appetite.  This is indicated by the indent in the respective points of their body. 

Amujale, Yoruba was a civilization that predated Ife.   Many of you are thinking Yoruba started in Ife. No, Yoruba settled in Ife!  It's civilization became an old world order that had to yield for a new one to begin, the clash resulted in the exodus out of AfroAsia.  Ifa could not have lasted as long it has in the course of human timeline in which it could easily have been wiped out with everything else that were successfully erased from our consciousness unless there was some divine intervention to preserve it for humanity.  It is not an act of Yoruba prowess or know-how that Ifa has remained a world knowledge.  Similarly, all these antiques of our past glory will find their own voice to re-establish the severed connection.  It will take a white man telling it before you all come into agreement and nod your heads to these truths.

[img]http://anthonyuu.files./2011/04/ife_bronze_head2.jpg[/img]
http://anthonyuu./2011/04/04/yoruba-religion-and-the-rapture-of-being-alive/

[img]http://2.bp..com/_KZOfzeQTrBY/TBUst38jd6I/AAAAAAAAAvw/8kTq03A7KeQ/s1600/ife_us.jpg[/img]
http://jacarandatribal..com/2010/06/museum-announces-us-tour-of-ife-art-in.html

^^^ Thanks for bringing this back on track, Anonymous6. I'm attaching a few cellphone photos of rare Ife-style terracottas I took from some books I have, mainly "Ife in the History of West African Sculpture" by Frank Willett and "Treasures of Ancient Nigeria" by Willett and Ekpo Eyo. Sorry about the poor quality but it would have taken too much time to scan. I'll try to scan and post more if people are interested though. There are many more terracottas than bronzes, and they show the wide range of influence of Ife culture. Owo terracottas show an obvious Ife inspiration and has been said, also show cultural affinities with Benin. This is a finely-detailed fragment of arms presenting a sacrificial ram:

Owo girl or woman bearing a jar, which appears to have broken off. This is one of the most naturalistic sculptures I've come across and shows a developed style independent of their Ife and Benin peers:

The last image is really interesting since there aren't a lot of images of the decorative terracotta tiling/potsherd pavements I've mentioned on the Internet. This is one of the most distinguishing features of Ife-related cultures. Check out the damaged head in the other image; there are sometimes dozens of fragments that have to be painstakingly reassembled by experts:

TerraCotta:

^^^ Thanks for bringing this back on track, Anonymous6. I'm attaching a few cellphone photos of rare Ife-style terracottas I took from some books I have, mainly "Ife in the History of West African Sculpture" by Frank Willett and "Treasures of Ancient Nigeria" by Willett and Ekpo Eyo. Sorry about the poor quality but it would have taken too much time to scan. I'll try to scan and post more if people are interested though. There are many more terracottas than bronzes, and they show the wide range of influence of Ife culture. Owo terracottas show an obvious Ife inspiration and has been said, also show cultural affinities with Benin. This is a finely-detailed fragment of arms presenting a sacrificial ram:

Thanks, please post more, your pictures are fine enough

delusions of intellectual grandeur?

TC,

The broken head art from the book, did they say in what age that art was done? I tip my hat to the sculptor, the detail is too powerful I almost mistook it for the real thing!

I love those potsherds pavement. How elaborate were they and does anyone know if they were used on main boulevards or just in the King's palace?


Amor4ce,

Quantun physics is just beginning to arrive on conclusions that mystics have known for ages but which science back then denied as invalid conjectures. Sometime in future we will all be on the same page on this Yoruba origin topic. I am glad though that this forum is educational and respectful of opposing views.

http://jemolo.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?&lang=en&keyword=Arte%20Africana&c=&p=&insieme=

Here is a very good figure to show that Yoruba was a powerful civilization in AfroAsia. Compare to Biblical customs instructing High Priests to dress in exact same manner as shown in this figure.

Contrary to the label in Andrea Jemolo's site that places this figure, found in Jebba,  as an archer, he was in fact a priest as indicated by the adornment of his robe, breastplate, sash and ornamental bells in fron of him and the peyot attached to his hair, covered by the headgear. 

Note:   From a mystical perspective, peyot separate between the front part of the brain which is used for abstract thought that can be used for holiness, and the back part of the brain that governs the body.

Wait, do people actually believe that Ife (and by extention) Ifa divination was founded by Arabs/Middle Easterners? The latter moreso, is impossible as Ifa had to start in Africa, as Middle Eastern sand diviniation (like Chinese geomancy to the further east) both use base-10. Whereas Ifa strictly uses base-2. It wouldn't make sense for Yoruba to change from the original model, if it was an imported Arabic system. They would have stuck with base-10 since that's what they would be (hypothetically speaking) taught by Middle Eastern traders. It's far more probable to think that Arabs, through constant interaction, picked up the divination system from the Yoruba and merely expanded upon it, by turning it into base-10.

Booshman:

Wait, do people actually believe that Ife (and by extention) Ifa divination was founded by Arabs/Middle Easterners? The latter moreso, is impossible as Ifa had to start in Africa, as Middle Eastern sand diviniation (like Chinese geomancy to the further east) both use base-10. Whereas Ifa strictly uses base-2. It wouldn't make sense for Yoruba to change from the original model, if it was an imported Arabic system. They would have stuck with base-10 since that's what they would be (hypothetically speaking) taught by Middle Eastern traders. It's far more probable to think that Arabs, through constant interaction, picked up the divination system from the Yoruba and merely expanded upon it, by turning it into base-10.

I don't believe Ife came from the Arabs or Middle Easterns

Sorry about the delay.

anonymous6:

Thanks, please post more, your pictures are fine enough

My pleasure. You're doing a great job with the ones you've posted. Here are a couple of unusual images from the book Beads Body and Soul: Art and Light in the Yoruba Universe. The first is a surviving fragment from a larger piece. The rest has not been found, but the fragment has interesting details--the beads and brasswork around the feet and the design of the chair reflect some current parts of ceremony at Ife:

More:

This intricate, beautiful mask is supposed to be the terra cotta equivalent of the pure copper Obalufon mask, which is part of the traveling Ife exhibit. These would have been worn during coronations and possibly other religious occasions. The book points out the mouth covering represented by cross-hatching around the lips and under the nose.

Last one is the group of brass heads excavated at Wumonije compound in Ife. This photo was taken shortly after they were dug up and shows the varieties of faces and features depicted by the sculptors.

Negro_Ntns:

TC,

The broken head art from the book, did they say in what age that art was done? I tip my hat to the sculptor, the detail is too powerful I almost mistook it for the real thing!

I love those potsherds pavement. How elaborate were they and does anyone know if they were used on main boulevards or just in the King's palace?

They were part of the courtyards in palaces and other religious architecture. They were fairly elaborate; some of them included glass beads and other embellishments.

[img]http://4.bp..com/_iXfPRMAMUFk/S_k92simpVI/AAAAAAAAAB8/7Fi0kzpOavw/s400/Ooni+of+Ife+Bronze+Crown+Head+Olokun.jpg[/img]
http://gabmanphotography..com/2010/05/ooni-of-ife-bronze-crown-head-olokun.html

anonymous6:

I don't believe Ife came from the Arabs or Middle Easterns

I should have clarified that I was mainly aiming my question at Negro_Ntns.

Booshman:

I should have clarified that I was mainly aiming my question at Negro_Ntns.

oh understood

[flash=500,500]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufaMhIKTf_s[/flash]

[flash=500,500]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWLJ8d5_Ygc[/flash]

Negro_Ntns, I did not necessarily allude to you or yours.