Enigma: Those who will get it will get it.

This kind of thing will not be understood by those who don't understand this kind of thing.

Of course!!! It will only be understood by those willing to propagate their version of "truth", no matter what reality presents.

Enigma's militant/evangelical Atheist- any atheist that says "no" when a christian says "YES!!!" or any atheist that dares to speak.

Mr_Anony: @Enigma, Humanism and atheism are not exactly the same thing but then again all secular humanists are atheists. Humanism is an attempt to make sense of the immorality that results from rejecting God.
At this point, I dare say that there cannot be any atheist who doesn't have a belief system that guides his morality because once you say there is no God, you are confronted with the problem of how do we measure good and evil? by answering that for yourself (which ever way you choose) you end up with a belief system or moral guide akin to a religion. hence if the statement that "atheism has no moral codes or guidelines" is true then no one can possibly be a true atheist or else anyone who is a true atheist would be the worst of tyrants (even the worst of tyrants must justify their deeds to themselves).

@ Mr_Anony

Something you might find interesting as food for thought.

Previously posted here: https://www.nairaland.com/298119/30-keys-being-effective-atheist/2#9514467

Lack of belief in God is substantively different from belief in the non-existence of God thus a dog, a cow, a monkey is as much an "atheist" as the evangelical atheist! (Very good company ; and as a bonus: insist that man is an ape but become angry if called a monkey )

Mr_Anony:
Personally I believe that when you start from a neutral ground, the argument for the existence of God is by far much more compelling than the argument for His inexistence.

He thinks he's "neutral" but his god already has a gender.
Wild guess, he is a christian.

Mr_Anony:
I would rather see a proper atheist manifesto detailing the the atheist stance than a bunch of one-liners. I want to see "an atheism is true because......"

There is no need for a manifesto
atheism is true because all concepts of gods and the supernatural are man made. There has never been any objective evidence for the existence of any god or God. If you discard all gods but yours and if the discarded ones are as implausible as yours, what makes you think an atheist has to explain why he discarded yours too? You already know the reasons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Creator_gods

Step 1- Pick a god(apart from yours) from the list.
Step 2- Read about him/it
Step 3- Ask yourself if you believe
Step 4- If you do proceed to step 8, if you don't proceed to step 5
Step 5- List the reasons
Step 6- Assume atheists have the same reasons
Step 7- Apply the reasons to your god (he's on the list too)
Step 8- Kill Yourself

Martian:

He thinks he's "neutral" but his god already has a gender.
Wild guess, he is a christian.

Yes I am a christian. I speak in reflection* - I have already weighed the arguments and God makes so much sense to me.

There is no need for a manifesto
atheism is true because all concepts of gods and the supernatural are man made. There has never been any objective evidence for the existence of any god or God. If you discard all gods but yours and if the discarded ones are as implausible as yours, what makes you think an atheist has to explain why he discarded yours too? You already know the reasons.

How can a statement be true if it is a non-statement? No statement is true simply because it proclaims another statement false

Mr_Anony:
Yes I am a christian. I speak in reflection* - I have already weighed the arguments and God makes so much sense to me.

The fact that there is no physical proof of your God makes sense? Or the fact that your God commanded people to take slaves in Leveticus makes sense? Or that women were created from a rib makes sense?

Mr_Anony:
How can a statement be true if it is a non-statement? No statement is true simply because it proclaims another statement false

??

A statement can be true if it states that a false statement is false. Ode. Philosophy and logic are not for ignorant christians like you

Mr_Anony:
Yes I am a christian. I speak in reflection* - I have already weighed the arguments and God makes so much sense to me.

Then let it make sense to you and yours. Atheism is the acknowledgement that there is no fundamental difference betwen yahweh, obatala, zeus and ahura mazda etc. Christianity is the belief that yahweh/jesus aredifferent from the rest.

Mr_Anony:
How can a statement be true if it is a non-statement? No statement is true simply because it proclaims another statement false

but the statement is true if the statement it opposes is baseless and has similarities with other baseless statements i.e lies
You say there is a "god", I say prove it, you say its "extraphyscial and can't be explained in physical terms", I say it sounds like the rest of the fairytales, you close your eyes,close your ears, stomp your feet and keep crying about how your God is different but refuse to give a coherent explanantion. I say your god is not different from the other gods you and I both reject.I'm probably right.

Martian:
but the statement is true if the statement it opposes is baseless and has similarities with other baseless statements i.e lies
You say there is a "god", I say prove it, you say its "extraphyscial and can't be explained in physical terms", I say it sounds like the rest of the fairytales, you close your eyes,close your ears, stomp your feet and keep crying about how your God is different but refuse to give a coherent explanantion. [b]say your god is not different from the other gods you and I both reject[/b]I'm probabaly right.

You look at a mechanism such as the universe and demand that it's originator must be less complex than it is. You and I know very well that I coined the word "extraphysical" to explain that whatever brought forth the universe i.e the physical must be more complex than the universe hence "extraphysical". feel free to attack my poor use of the english language if that is what makes you feel better.

It amuses me when you say you do not know if the universe has an origin or not but you seem absolutely certain that if it does, the creator of the physical must be physical as well. I wonder how you came to be convinced of this.

Mr_Anony:
You look at a mechanism such as the universe and demand that it's originator must be less complex than it is

Straw man! I didn't demand anything. My stance is that we don't know why the universe exists or the nature of the originator, if there is one.

Mr_Anony:
You and I know very well that I coined the word "extraphysical" to explain that whatever brought forth the universe i.e the physical must be more complex than the universe hence "extraphysical".feel free to attack my poor use of the english language if that is what makes you feel better.

I don't need to. You seem to be coming to terms with the fact that you're not coherent.

Mr_Anony:
It amuses me when you say you do not know if the universe has an origin or not[b] but you seem absolutely certain that if it does, the creator of the physical must be physical as well.[/b] I wonder how you came to be convinced of this.

Stop pulling straw men out of your a$$. I didn't say anything about any creator.

Mr_Anony:
Yes I am a christian. I speak in reflection* - I have already weighed the arguments and God makes so much sense to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Creator_gods

Step 1- Pick a god(apart from yours) from the list.
Step 2- Read about him/it
Step 3- Ask yourself if you believe
Step 4- If you do proceed to step 8, if you don't proceed to step 5
Step 5- List the reasons
Step 6- Assume atheists have the same reasons
Step 7- Apply the reasons to your god (he's on the list too)
Step 8- Kill Yourself

Martian:

Strawman! I didn't demand anything. My stance is that we don't know why the universe exists or the nature of the originator, if there is one.



I don't need to. You seem to be coming to terms with the fact that you're not coherent. You understood me perfectly but you decided to play dumb for effect. fairplay to you



Stop pulling strawmen out of your a$$. I didn't say anything about any creator.

No my friend, I don't think I attack any strawmen here. By demanding physical proof for a creator to exist, are you not also saying that the creator must be physical?

Martian:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Creator_gods

Step 1- Pick a god(apart from yours) from the list.
Step 2- Read about him/it
Step 3- Ask yourself if you believe
Step 4- If you do proceed to step 8, if you don't proceed to step 5
Step 5- List the reasons
Step 6- Assume atheists have the same reasons
Step 7- Apply the reasons to your god (he's on the list too)
Step 8- Kill Yourself

You have posted this twice now (you must really want me to kill myself ). I have read some of them, I could show you why my God is true but first you have to acknowledge that a God must exist and one of the many proclaimed must be true. Else it is futile talking about it.

Mr_Anony:
No my friend, I don't think I attack any strawmen here. By demanding physical proof for a creator to exist, are you not also saying that the creator must be physical?

If your creator created physical things, you must be able to provide evidence that can be tested by physical means because that's the only objective way. And I don't know what your extraphysical means no matter what you think.

What if I said this universe is one in a chain of universes and that the original universe was started by a physical entity who also had a creator? Would it be different from your arbitrary point of the "causeless cause" a.k.a god?

I know I just made it up, but you have deluded yourself into thinking that it's true.

Mr_Anony:
You have posted this twice now (you must really want me to kill myself ). I have read some of them, I could show you why my God is true but first you have to acknowledge that a God must exist and one of the many proclaimed must be true. Else it is futile talking about it.

Why "a God" and not "gods"? Please, please, pretty please show me why your God is true.

Martian:

If your creator created physical things, you must be able to provide evidence that can be tested by physical means because that's the only objective way.

Not so my friend, if a man makes a watch, you don't find the watchmaker by fiddling with the watch. You find the watch maker by asking after him. You can start by reading the manual of the watch. Also you don't identify the watchmaker by assuming that he must look like his watch.

Martian:

Why "a God" and not "gods"? Please, please, pretty please show me why your God is true.

"God or gods" whatever floats your boat. you seem to be hung on irrelevant detail. If you say there is no God/gods why should I bother telling you about God? If I say human beings do not exist, why should you bother telling me about yourself and why you are martian?
People find God by seeking Him truthfully and not by skepticism. That is how it works my friend.

Mr_Anony:
Not so my friend, if a man makes a watch, you don't find the watchmaker by fiddling with the watch. You find the watch maker by asking after him.

Here goes the watchmaker thing. What's next, the 747? why assume the watchmaker is male? what makes you think one watchmaker made it? maybe it was a collective of watchmakers?

anyway, we KNOW humans make watches.

Mr_Anony:
You can start by reading the manual that came with the watch..

The manual. lmao you're talking about that ridiculous book aren't you? The one with the tower of language confusion/origination..

Mr_Anony:
Also you don't identify the watchmaker by assuming that he must look like his watch.

Of course not, but you can recognize a rolex or a movado by checking for some features. Where is your god's trademark?

Mr_Anony:
"God or gods" whatever floats your boat. you seem to be hung on semantics. If you say there is no God/gods why should I bother telling you about God?

I'm not hung up on semantics. You refer to your god as "God" but you can't explain the difference between yours and the others. Hence ,God or whatever you call him is just another man made concept of the universe's cause.

Mr_Anony:
If I say human beings do not exist, why should you bother telling me about yourself and why you are martian?

Come back. You're veering off into incoherence again.

Mr_Anony:
People find God by seeking Him truthfully and not by skepticism. That is how it works my friend.

You mean, people find "God" by having faith in the irrational and the supernatural. That is how it works.

Martian:

Here goes the watchmaker thing. What's next, the 747? why assume the watchmaker is male? what makes you think one watchmaker made it? maybe it was a collective of watchmakers?

anyway, we KNOW humans make watches.



The manual. lmao you're talking about that ridiculous book aren't you? The one with the tower of language confusion/origination..



Of course not, but you can recognize a rolex or a movado by checking for some features. Where is your god's trademark?

For instance if I wanted to meet you, I will look for you with the hope that I will find you. I don't start by assuming that you don't exist. Whichever way you swing it, you must find God by first truthfully wanting to know Him.

First of all, I am being neutral by presenting the list of gods. I am assuming that they all have the same chance of being true, so it's up to you to tell me why the one you pick is the "true" one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Creator_gods

Mr_Anony:
For instance if I wanted to meet you, I will look for you with the hope that I will find you. I don't start by assuming that you don't exist.

You will look for me with hopes that you will find me because.
1) You KNOW humans exist.
2) You can only assume I don't exist if the descriptions given to you do not tally with reality.
3) I'm proving my existence right now.

Mr_Anony:
Whichever way you swing it, you must find THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN by first truthfully wanting to know Him.

Sorry, THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN compelled me to do that.

Martian:

I'm not hung up on semantics. You refer to your god as "God" but you can't explain the difference between yours and the others. Hence ,God or whatever you call him is just another man made concept of the universe's cause.



Come back. You're veering off into incoherence again.



You mean, people find "God" by having faith in the irrational and the supernatural. That is how it works.

It is beginning to occur to me that no matter how I try to tell it to you, you will just keep jumping around and twisting my words, Enjoy yourself.
You are like someone who comes upon an ipad by chance. first you claim that you don't know if it was created or it just appeared. then when someone tells you that Steve Jobs made it, you do not even show the slightest interest in who Steve might be rather you say that whoever made the ipad must look resemble ipad. that my friend is ignorance.

Mr_Anony:
It is beginning to occur to me that no matter how I try to tell it to you, you will just keep jumping around and twisting my words, Enjoy yourself.

lol. I didn't twist your words. All is did was present a list of gods and ask you to tell us why yours is the ture one.

Mr_Anony:
You are like someone who comes upon an ipad by chance. first you claim that you don't know if it was created or it just appeared. then when someone tells you that Steve Jobs made it, you do not even show the slightest interest in who Steve might be rather you say that whoever made the ipad must look resemble ipad. that my friend is ignorance.

No fool, ignorance is insisting on straw men arguments when you have no point. You already tried the "coming across a watch" analogy and the creator resembling a watch and this is what i said.

Martian:
Of course not, but you can recognize a rolex or a movado by checking for some features. Where is your god's trademark?

next it's going to be coming across the Dragon Capsule and wondering if Elon Musk exists or if he looks like the capsule. lol

hmm, either anony or enigma rightly puts it, it has now digress to "show me your God exiztence" instead of trying to refute the post by frosbel SMH

hisblud: hmm, either anony or enigma rightly puts it, it has now digress to "show me your God exiztence" instead of trying to refute the post by frosbel SMH

Why bother refuting straw men?
all frosbel did was copy paste some christians made up argument about what atheism is. What's new?

[b]Some Evangelical atheists paradoxes*

1. Christianity is a white man's religion ------ ( huh of what colour are the apostles and bishops of the evangelical atheists like Dawkins, Harris etc?)
2. Christian writings - especially New Testament writings - are stone/bronze age material (hmm, when did Socrates, Pluto, Aristotle etc live, work or write?)
3. When Christians discuss their faith, even only among themselves, they are evangelising and offensive, but when the evangelical atheists spam the forum with evangelical atheist codswallop even to cause offence deliberately, they are "providing education"! smiley
4. Christianity is an intolerant religion but the evangelical atheist religion cannot accept any viewpoint whatsoever that suggests the existence of God; in fact even holding such a viewpoint privately is not acceptable to evangelical atheists who see it as a duty to "disabuse" the holder of the viewpoint. Perhaps call it "enlightenment"! smiley
5. Lack of belief in God is substantively different from belief in the non-existence of God thus a dog, a cow, a monkey is as much an "atheist" as the evangelical atheist! (Very good company smiley; and as a bonus: insist that man is an ape but become angry if called a monkey grin )[/b]

https://www.nairaland.com/298119/30-keys-being-effective-atheist/2#9514467

SO funny Enigma

hisblud: https://www.nairaland.com/298119/30-keys-being-effective-atheist/2#9514467
SO funny Enigma

You know what's SO funny? This.
https://www.nairaland.com/953672/true-suppressions-archaeological-coverups--a-plot

You should go watch ancient aliens. Some even believe your god might have been an ancient alien. lol

Martian: First of all, I am being neutral by presenting the list of gods. I am assuming that they all have the same chance of being true, so it's up to you to tell me why the one you pick is the "true" one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Creator_gods

If there is God and one of the many must be the true God, then consider:
None of the adherents of other gods have made such a claim as this: That God came to the earth in the flesh (not in a time before time but in verifiable time), was seen by people who lived at that time, performed many miracles: including healing the sick and bringing the dead to life, He lived a faultless life and preached a message that was way beyond the thinking of the time. In fact christian values are and have been the bedrock of what we know to be good today (imagine for a minute if everyone followed the way of Christ: there will be no evil in the world whatsoever) He died and He rose again (he was seen by both his disciples and those who did not believe) from the dead and was ascended into heaven. His first disciples (and they were many) preached this and died horrible deaths for it (if Christ's resurrection was a conspiracy, one of them surely would have recanted). And no one of that time contested the resurrection of Christ.

Martian:

lol. I didn't twist your words. All is did was present a list of gods and ask you to tell us why yours is the ture one.



No fool, ignorance is insisting on straw men arguments when you have no point. You already tried the "coming across a watch" analogy and the creator resembling a watch and this is what i said.



next it's going to be coming across the Dragon Capsule and wondering if Elon Musk exists or if he looks like the capsule. lol

Here we go again, the brand on a watch doesn't prove that the watch was created, all it proves is that the creator decided to put his brand on it (why is this so difficult for you?) Besides if you already reject that the watch was created, the brand will not convince you. The evidence for creation for any object is order. The universe is far too orderly and far too intelligent to occur randomly.

Mr_Anony:
It is beginning to occur to me that no matter how I try to tell it to you, you will just keep jumping around and twisting my words, Enjoy yourself.
You are like someone who comes upon an ipad by chance. first you claim that you don't know if it was created or it just appeared. then when someone tells you that Steve Jobs made it, you do not even show the slightest interest in who Steve might be rather you say that whoever made the ipad must look resemble ipad. that my friend is ignorance.

The watchmaker analogy is a common/(not to mention old) argument which has been criticized throughout its history. The way you are using it is particularly abusive, because you are using a complex object that is easily identifiable as being designed(by man particularly) and equivocating it with another complex object(the Universe). After all how many universe factories have you ever heard of? I know several ipad factories in china and in fact the serial number can tell you where and when your ipad was manufactured. You should take a look at the wiki page for the various criticism/rebuttals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmaker_analogy. To your last point answer this. Do you recognize that humans are made of physical material called matter? Do you recognize that ipad are also composed of physical material called matter? Do you recognize that it was one organization of physical matter(human) that caused another organization of physical matter(ipad) to be? If the answer is yes to all then you are in agreement with the Martian.

As to your teleological argument, I am afraid that it is a mess of incoherency. You speak of causality as the motivation for necessitating that there be a first cause(not that I agree on this point). Yet, you then proceed to remove the first cause from a time and space. Surely you must understand that the argument from causation necessitates that all steps be within a time/space framework? For example, the meaning/concept behind the word "cause"(along with every other verb) is entirely informed by a framework of time and space. It is not at all clear what you mean when you say "X" caused/es/ing? "Y" outside of time and space. But, of course that is an incoherent statement because I am talking about X as if it were an "event" that took place within time. By your definition it most certainly did(another word that requires time) not. So using words/concepts like cause/effect/event/does/did/actions are entirely inappropriate considering how you defined first cause.

The trouble I see with your argument it that you are trying to say A=/=B and yet turning around and talking as if A=B. Essentially, you are saying the first cause is outside time/space and then proceeding to "borrow" concepts from time and space to explain it. That does not make any sense. If A is outside of time and space, then it is entirely inappropriate/incoherent/illogical to use things that exist within time and space to explain it. I believe this is what Martian has been trying to tell you all along.

Mr_Anony:
If there is God and one of the many must be the true God, then consider:
None of the adherents of other gods have made such a claim as this: That God came to the earth in the flesh (not in a time before time but in verifiable time), was seen by people who lived at that time, performed many miracles: including healing the sick and bringing the dead to life, He lived a faultless life and preached a message that was way beyond the thinking of the time.

And you read all these in your religious book. I can also tell you about Muhammad(who's historicity has been confirmed unlike Iesous) and his holy book. Because apart from the bible, there is no other source for this jesus fellow under than the grasping at straws when apologists start looking for any word that resembles "kristos" in ancient historical texts.

Mr_Anony:
In fact christian values are and have been the bedrock of what we know to be good today (imagine for a minute if everyone followed the way of Christ: there will be no evil in the world whatsoever)

What are these "christian" values people didn't possess until your religion existed? What is the way of christ and what makes it exclusive to christ?

Mr_Anony:
He died and He rose again (he was seen by both his disciples and those who did not believe) from the dead and was ascended into heaven.

My book of Bible stories.

Mr_Anony:
And no one of that time contested the resurrection of Christ.

The resurrection only occured in the bible.


So it seems the bible is your evidence that your god is real.

hisblud: https://www.nairaland.com/298119/30-keys-being-effective-atheist/2#9514467

SO funny Enigma

I have debunked your evangelical atheist paradoxes

https://www.nairaland.com/953834/debunking-evangelical-atheists-paradoxes