Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? - Car Talk - Nairaland
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| Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by Nobody: 12:45pm On Dec 06, 2011 |
Hello guys! I'm starting this thread, in response to the several automatic transmission failures, documented on these boards. Now many would state they prefer automatic transmission, due to ease of driving, Lagos traffic etc. Some prefer automatic transmission, simply because it make their automobile seem more "full option". Personally, the benefits of automatic transmission over manual don't seem worth the issues that go with them. We all know Nigerians have this obsession with fuel economy, reliability, low maintenance etc. Do these benefits outweigh those offered by manual, which is pretty much maintenance free? Automatics make any car thirstier, that's a known fact. They are heavier, sap valuable engine output, require more periodic maintenance, are very unforgiving of contamination, do not like heat (the most common killer) and their malfunction can pretty much ground all but the most expensive of vehicles. The mere action of keeping the shift in D, holding the vehicle with the brakes in traffic also loads up the engine, leading to over heating. They require specialist repairs if they go bust. The cost also weighed against the value of a 5-year old compact sedan may also spell the end of such a vehicle. I am also a culprit of automatic transmission. My current car has the ZF5HP24-A tiptronic. Now I didn't buy my car with this tranny, because I love auto. I had no choice. RHD Audi S8 all had tiptronic only, the get the excellent 6-speed manual would mean buying a LHD Euro-spec car. So I am undertaking a manual conversion. Without going on other make forums, I don't need to hear tales of woe, with regards to automatic transmission failure. On this forum alone, there are enough threads relating to auto tranny failure to fill a book fatter than the Koran. On Audi fora, the ZF transmission failure has been well documented. Jaguar, Range Rover, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Bentley, Rolls-Royce and a host of others use ZF auto transmission, and failures are not uncommon. Manual, on the other hand, don't have reliability issues. There are hardly any manual tranny failure threads on Nairaland, if any. Most manual trannies will outlive the engine and the body shell. Scrap yards don't often bother removing manual transmission from the cars, for the simple reason, they seldom get any call for them. The only desirable manuals these days, are 6-speeds, whereby people buy them for converting automatics to manual, or older 5-speeders to 6. So, manual gives better gas miles, lower maintenance bills, will take severe punishment without going bang, are not controlled by a pesky computer. They don't require servicing, in most cars they are filled for life, so unless there's an oil leak from a tired seal, you could actually forget it has oil in it! Long traffic stretches don't do them any harm either, so heat isn't an issue. With all these issues, does the benefit of not using your left leg outweigh the benefits of manual? Lets hear views from both sides - auto and manual. Any issues too will be good to read about, again from both sides. 11 Likes |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by kuntash: 2:24pm On Dec 06, 2011 |
sincerely, I loved the driving pattern of manal C-class benz I drove 2 weeks ago, after about 4yrs of all AUTO tranny, the first few mins was like I was learning how to drive, but all of a sudden, I discovered the clutch was so smooth and need no much stress to push down, obviously this was what discouraged me in my old camry that was manual, this one was really nice, and I wish to try it again. suffice it to say that there is much fun driving a manual, especially on the highway, 6 Likes |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by miccodb(m): 2:27pm On Dec 06, 2011 |
my main concern with the auto is the engaging technology and slip involved when taking off. from my personal findings, each time u leav from rest on your auto tranny a part of your leather burns esp wen u depress the brake so ive made it a point of experiment to go onto N first then unto D without depressing my brakes. anoyingly its difficult to control transmission on the auto so you can hadly conserve power and fuel by riding slow on a high gear as done with manual. my man ders a million and one other issues as u have rightly highlighted. the cumputer control unit also creates a multiple point of failure as issues are more difficult to drill down to. bros d day i leave naija or the day traffice ceases in naija its manual all the way cos i can now burnout at will!!! nice technical post siena it takes real indepth knowledge to understand these intricacies and technology. kudos bro 4 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by jcshols: 2:50pm On Dec 06, 2011 |
hi guys,nice topic. however,i will like to correct the wrong notion about manual givin beta gas miles, not all manual transmission does that. If you get the idea behind torque converter,u will agree with me that some auto conserves gas better than thier manual variant. The secret of making a torque converter automatic work efficiently is a matter of matching gearing and lock-up with the torque characteristics of the engine.Honda has been able to achieve better economy figures for its 2.4i petrol engined torque converter autos than for the manuals. In as much as i agree with most of the points stated by sienna, i will also like to say that in this part of the world,auto cars have better second hand value than manual. 2 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by Nobody: 3:58pm On Dec 06, 2011 |
^^^ The resale value of any car is a secondary consideration, and is as a result of Nigeria's love affair with the auto tranny. The most common motivation would most likely be purchase cost, ease of service, brand appeal / loyalty and of course, the general appearance. Whilst resale value is important, it's rare to buy any vehicle we don't actually like, merely because we're thinking of resale in say 5 years time. The resale factor only seems valid if we actually like the vehicle. Otherwise 5 years is a long time to drive a vehicle we're not keen on. Am I to understand some of those that drive auto tranny vehicles don't like them, but just made their purchases because they're thinking of the market they'll be selling it to, when they decide they've had enough, and want a new automobile? 4 Likes |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by Ikenna351(m): 6:16pm On Dec 06, 2011 |
i dont see a reason why i would sacrifice a lot, deprive or deny myself a lot of things to save enough to purchase a car or vehicle i have been dreaming to own, only to have at the back of my mind of resale value. Most of us that are into Euro cars dont purchase them because of resale value (which they dont have in Nigeria), we buy them because of driving pleasure they offer which some Asian vehicles lack. Why then should i resale something i enjoy driving and has never given me any reason to get rid of? So please, some Nigerians buy vehicles because they love them and intend to keep them as long as they could with them. And am one of them. When my purchased Peugeot 505 V6 5-speed manual transmission first arrived, the car had severe electric issues that made it undrivable that i pay less attention to other parts of the car. Unknown to me, the manual gearbox had leaked gear oil from the seal, even before the car was driven from Lagos to Abuja to me. I could hear terrible noise under the car when on high speed, but i thought it was the propeller shaft or torque tube bearing that had failed and was making the propeller shaft to be dangling as speed increases. Like i said before, i was less concerned with the noise because i was more concerned with sorting out the severe injection issue the car came with. I drove the car for months like that, until i decided to check the oil level in the gearbox. They checked and not a drop of oil dropped from the box when it was opened. I refilled the box with TOTAL manual trans oil and drove out and the noise was no more till today. After months of running the car without a drop of gearoil in the box, both in city and on highway, yet the gearbox still runs well, even till today. I wouldnt even know how long it was driven without gear oil before i purchased the car. Can auto tranny survive this? Ikenna. 19 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by Nobody: 9:20pm On Dec 06, 2011 |
^^^ Great personal experience from Ikenna. He's not a mechanic, nor an auto electrician, yet he was able to sort out issues with his car. As for automatic transmission, they die even when they have the right grade, and quantity of oil in them. 3 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by Ikenna351(m): 10:06pm On Dec 06, 2011 |
The truth is 90% of Nigerians now are victims of Bandwagon Propaganda: that is "EVERYBODY DOES IT". The 90% purchase a particular brand or tranny vehicle becuase everyone is using the same. Very few buy something they really want, not what others want them to or because its in vogue. Someone commented that Nigerians prefer auto tranny vehicle because of resale value, forgeting that some people buy cars for keep, unless when they start finding it difficult to keep the car on the road. I have driven a lot of auto trans vehicles, but fail to find the comfort people claimed to derive from it. A colleague of mine that bought Toyota Camry almost the sametime i bought my 505 manual trans has replaced his car auto gearbox that failed few months after purchase. Also just recently, he also replaced his I4 engine that failed as well. A neigbour of mine that drives Nissan Pathfinder auto tranny, had a failed gearbox of the SUV. He replaced the gearbox. Unfortunately, the purchased auto gearbox wasnt exactly the same failed one removed from the SUV. Trust our rewires. They butchered the auto gearbox harness that connects to the gearbox ECU or TCU & connected the harness to ECU with guess work. Becuase of that, the gear wasnt selecting properly & was disrupting the proper running of the engine. That later led to engine failure. The man has finally, in pain, sold the car as scrap. He is now using Peugeot 307 manual trans. Go figure! Ikenna. 8 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by viperman: 12:03am On Dec 07, 2011 |
Nice topic. In as much as MOST manual transmission gears outlive their automatic counterparts, its also important to make the fact known that the reason most nigerians buy automatic transmission cars is largely due to the crazy traffic situation in the country. Most people who live in cities in nigeria with less traffic situation e.g calabar, kogi, enugu, ondo e.t.c Still have a somewhat 50-50 manual transmission purchasing demographic, and would fully concur to your views above; but those living in states like mad-lagos, abuja, port-harcourt etc would tell you "Thank you Sienna, but automatic would make me grow older without worrying about arthritis"  Driving an automatic in these traffic ridden cities makes life less stressful than the manuals, even though you can still place the manual transmission in neutral state and make use of the hand-brake while waiting for hold-ups to move.. Even with that, an automatic drive stresses the body of the driver less than the manual transmission would over years, and allows drivers multi-task while driving e.g picking a call(not right) , searching for something in the car while driving, eating etc Yes, the manual might be cheaper to maintain, but If one has got the money to maintain the automatic( a machine) and save themselves(human body) the future body strain and possible leg pains(which money might nott solve, why risk all that cuz I want to be a miser?  The world is changing in every area of our lives, and for machines we use daily; they are continuously being made to work in their true definition(making work/life easier for the user). Hence, automatics are in-vogue now. Benz has even taking the automatics to a whole new level with their gear levers which are behind the steering wheel which you just tap up or down to switch gears. This is going to even get easier as the years come by. In summary, the [i]longterm [/i]benefits of an automatic drive really does outweigh the manual transmission. www.viperautos.com 21 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by Nobody: 12:29am On Dec 07, 2011 |
^^^ Viper, I understand the traffic issues. I regularly drive in heavy traffic, both on the Continent and locally. Driving in Central London is also taxing at peak times. I have spent 6 hours in London traffic, covering a journey that would usually take 50 minutes. My left leg feels no pain. If a clutch pedal is that heavy, then something's seriously wrong. Contrary to popular belief, auto trannies don't like heat, which is what stationary, or slow-moving traffic does. The transmissions literally cook internally. The cost of replacing an auto trans in a mid-size family sedan could literally ground the car for a long time, sometimes permanently. I also think the auto transmission obsession amongst Nigerians goes way beyond traffic. Most of my Nigerian friends here in the UK drive automatics. One of my pals that lives in Colchester (no traffic issues there) runs a 2007 BMW X5 4,4 V8 auto. The transmission died 3 weeks ago, I dismantled it, and found the forward clutch drum is broken. A lot of these guys have consistently failed their manual driving tests, because they've conditioned themselves to believe they'll never master clutch control. The BMW X5 is still off the road, my friend's not sure if he's going to repair it, or just sell it at a loss, call it a day and buy a manual to replace it. The mileage is low, 53,000 miles. In the workshop, I'm seeing more automatic failures, some on cars that are about 3 years old, just out of warranty. It would also appear that older Borg Warner 3-speed autos, with no computer control are the most robust. But how many owners are prepared to run a 17-year-old car as a daily driver? 3 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by Ikenna351(m): 2:15am On Dec 07, 2011 |
@ Viperman. You sound as if traffic or madness on Lagos roads never existed before Nigerians became crazy with auto vehicles? Was the Lagos population reducing then because of body pains or HBP caused by traffic in Lagos? Simply put, reason why Nigerians prefer automatics is because of mental colonisation: everything modern, produced by the western world or whites is superior or better. a whiteman knows better & he is always right. This is the simply truth. How many of our children now exercise their body these days? 10% or so. The rest spend 12hrs on computer games, moving only their fingers. Check out their stature: Obessity. The whiteman knows better or the best. Abi? Days were gone when we have to strain ourselves doing work. After all, the whiteman has made it easy for us. You can stay in your bed 24/7 and be working, without making a move. Modern technology has made it possible for us to be lazy while doing everything you can think of. Why strain yourself to drive manual when auto is for big men & its modern tech to manual. One has to move with the time, isnt it? That something is modern or newly invented dosent mean that its better than the existing one before it came into being. Our Fathers that drove manuals all through lives as able-bodied, have not all died, neither are they suffering from pains in their old age caused by manual vehicles they drove when they were young. Or are you now telling me that we live longer than them now because we now drive automatics to prevent future illnesses/ailments? We are too fake! Every Nigerian prefers & believes that anything from America is superior to other nations. No one wants to buy Toyota Camry or Honda Accord of Euro spec. No. It must be American spec. Which happens that 95% Vehicles driven in America are auto tranny, while Europeans that consider fuel efficiency more than Americans use Manuals & Diesel vehicles more than Americans. The more the whites set high jump for us, the more we jump. We want to be like them, use what they use because they know better. What am getting at is that 95% of Nigerians that buy & use auto tranny vehicles do so because its whitemans modern tech. Not because they really need it, but because everyone uses it, why not join. Anyone that complains that driving manual in heavy traffic is stressful, simply means he/she dosent know how to drive manual, period. 95% of manual transmission vehicles produced from early '90s till date all have Hydraulically controlled Clutch system. The softest clutch pedal one can ever depress. So, how then is it stressful to depress a soft pedal? Also, why would someone depress Clutch pedal & hold it for mins waiting for traffic to start moving before he releases the pedal? Like i noted earlier, more than half of people that drive manual vehicles dont really know how to drive manual vehicles. Thats the reason clutch plate, disc & throw out bearing usually fail in most manual cars in Nigeria because of improper usage or application. My point is, if you like or need an automatic tranny vehicle, go for it because thats what you need, not because all your colleague have auto trans or because you dont want to be left out. At least, with that, you can bear whatever high maintenance cost you get from it without lamenting. One should buy a car to keep himself or herself happy. Just like marrying a wife. You dont marry someone to impress others. You marry whom you love for your happiness. Otherwise, you dont get to change your wife after one or two years because she has become boring to you. The same thing is applicable to cars/vehicles. Auto tranny is not bad. Of course, i do recommend it people, considering, first, what they want out of a car, which has been always my first question before i suggest a car to someone. But that auto tranny has come to be in Nigeria does not mean manual has been taken over by events in Nigeria. If driving manual in heavy traffic ,like Lagos, is very stressful to you, then go & learn how to drive manual properly cos you dont know how to do so. And mind you, that you have driven manual for 100 years dosent mean you really know how to drive it properly, otherwise you shouldnt be complaining driving it in traffic & killing your Clutch system frequently. Ikenna. 15 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by oblo(m): 8:07pm On Dec 07, 2011 |
If we manual tranny fans talk about our love for them as against maintenance cost the auto fans want to "fall our hand" by saying that if one has money to maintain his auto they see no reason not to stick to autos. But ikenna/ siena said it all. I love manuals, and yes some people dnt know how to drive manuals in the right way, and yes till date(I stand to be corrected) no auto tranny has ever outlived the lifespan of that car as against the manual tranny, maintenance cost of the auto far outweighs a manual or how can any auto fan here explain why a particular bank I know first hand(if not all banks in naija) all have up to 97% manual tranny official cars 5 Likes |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by viperman: 9:36am On Dec 08, 2011 |
Ikenna, the manual transmission is good no doubt, thats probably why its still used for formula-1 racings and Rally's. That said, technology is to improve lives, and technology has created automatics, step/tiptronics etc, and people have adopted it. Its not only africans that have jumped onto the automatic transmission bandwagon, even europeans have also, so whats the whole "mental colonisation " talk about must everything be about that? If a race improves on something, I shouldn't use it because, i want to be seen as mentally independent? Tomorrow, something better than automatic is surely in the cooking pot of the auto giants, and when it comes out, people who love to try NEW THINGs will jump on it, if it feels good for them, they'd buy it, if not, they'd definitely trash it. With the stress people have to go through in their daily lives in the homes, offices etc, I don't think adding stress of driving manual transmissions would make sense to plenty. Except those who want to drive it for special purposes/events e.g racing OR those who are auto engineers who drive it for better/core understanding and feel of a car's engineering. 6 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by Ikenna351(m): 10:57am On Dec 08, 2011 |
viperman: Now you are talking!  Meanwhile, you still dont get it. There where days when auto trans were very reliable and durable. You talk of 3 speed auto (ZF 3HP22) used on Peugeot 604 504 & 505 1st series. They where bullet prooffed. They never had issues as long as fluid were regularly changed. But the later model, 4 speed auto (ZF 4HP22), where nightmares in their start up in middle 80s. The 2nd seiries 505 auto trans, from '86 to 92, had the the 4 speed auto (ZF 4HP22). So was Range rover, Jaguar, BMW,etc. '86 & '87 cars with that gearbox had issues witheir transmission. It was until 88 that it was sorted out, but werent reliable as the 3 speed (ZF 3HP22). Since then, auto trans became nightmares. So tell me, how then does all new tech proves bvetter than old ones? My point remains that auto trans is new doesnt mean that is better when compared to indestructible manual tranny. Ikenna. 4 Likes |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by SimonTemp(m): 11:29am On Dec 08, 2011 |
A lot of new cars especially SUVs don't give a potential buyer much of a choice in the available range of transmissions. So even though I like manual transmissions, if I want to buy a 2011 Lexus GX470, I'll have to settle for an automatic transmission. 1 Like |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by Nobody: 1:14pm On Dec 08, 2011 |
[quote][/quote]One should buy a car to keep himself or herself happy. Just like marrying a wife. You dont marry someone to impress others. You marry whom you love for your happiness. Otherwise, you dont get to change your wife after one or two years because she has become boring to you. The same thing is applicable to cars/vehicles. This thread is very enlightening especially for somebody like me who doesn't know so much about cars. Please let the experts keep contributing, God bless you all. |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by Ikenna351(m): 4:34pm On Dec 08, 2011 |
Days were gone when auto trans were reliable. In the '70s and early '80s, Peugeot used 3 speed auto tranny (ZF 3HP22) on their 504 cabrios, 504 sedans, 604s & 505s that were auto trans. They were bullet proofed. As long as fluid were regularly changed, they remained reliable and durable too, at least, to some extent. Things fell apart when ZF 3HP22 was dumped and replaced with ZF 4HP22 (4 speed auto). In '86 & '87, the 2nd series/facelifted Peugeot 505s with the new 4 speed auto (ZF 4HP22) had transmission breakdowns. So where the Range Rovers, Jaguars, BMWs,etc, that had the same ZF 4HP22. Though some of the issues were sorted out in '87 productions, but it was never the same with the 3 speed auto. That was when auto trans became a nightmare in Europe. Siena can enlightened us more on the ZF 3HP22 & ZF 4HP22. The point am trying to make here is that not all new tech is better than the old tech. Manufacturerers are now more concerned with providing comfort in cars, & losing quality of what they used to produce. Ikenna 1 Like |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by jcshols: 9:12pm On Dec 08, 2011 |
i agree with @viperman. its important to remember that an average person that bus a manual car is more of a racing enthusiast (which i am too!). peeps buys cars for various reasons,its just like arguing that v6 is a better engine than I4,peeps that buy I4 should have thier reasons likewise us that likes V6. one thing you should put into consideration is that an average person(in this part of the world) sees a car as something to convey him from one destination to the other,period!the impression peeps have about manual and auto defi varies,some will tell you that 504 for example had a very hard clutch so why should they go for manual,whilst some will tell you that the datsun auto tranny was jerky then so why should he still stick with auto. the auto/manual thingy is more of a personal belief pls and not mental ish like some1 put. i like the fact that som1 even talked about arthritis(thumbsup).pls house,go for whatever makes you happy,just rmba to cultivate good servicing habit. cheers. 2 Likes |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by Nobody: 10:50pm On Dec 08, 2011 |
My take on auto trannies is more the reliability aspect. As I wrote earlier, the spate of auto tranny failures on this forum alone is what prompted me to start this thread. The last ZF3HP-22 I recall was in a 1973 Peugeot 404. My uncle bought this car back in 1977, with over 300,000 miles on the odometer. It was passed onto my cousin in 1981 with just under 400,000 miles on it! The point I'm trying to get across here is, modern computer-controlled autos are not robust. It's even worse in powerful AWD SUV's and luxury sedans, where wheel spin doesn't occur, so all the power has to go through the transmission. I have rebuilt countless auto transmissions, never a manual. And failures are rarely due to lack of maintenance. For example, Audi, Jaguar and Range Rover don't actually specify a fluid change, they say they're filled for life. Yet ZF, the manufacturers state otherwise. If you go onto Range Rover forums, and trawl the transmission section, you'll see what I mean. Some ZF's have failed at 200,000 miles, some about a 100,000. And worse, some as early as 55,000 miles! Now there are two schools of thought - have the filters, fluid, gasket and O-ring replaced every 30,000 miles. The other camp says leave it alone, until something goes b[i]a[/i]ng. Looking at several vehicles that run different versions of the ZF transmission, there doesn't seem to be much in the serviced and none-serviced units. Some believe replacing the fluids, strainer and it's O-ring as well as the oil pan gasket does little to extend its life. It may last perhaps 10,000 miles longer than one that wasn't serviced. The average ZF5HP takes about 9 litres of fluid (ZF Lifeguard 5). It comes in 1 litre bottles, on average about £25 each. More expensive still if you buy from a dealership. Add the cost of the strainer, gasket and labour (about 5 hours on average at typically £60 per hour). It's clear to see why many owners are happy to just carry on driving - the extra 10,000 mile service life of a serviced unit over an unserviced one for the high cost makes one wonder if it's worth the hassle and expense. My S8 runs the ZF5HP24a, and so far, it's been gravy. But I'm converting her to 6-speed manual come spring. I have a long list of Audi A8 / S8 owners, waiting for me to complete my conversion first, then theirs will follow. So far, no one in the UK has attempted this conversion, no RHD manual S8's were ever built. It's also worth noting very few people here will replace their dead auto tranny in late model vehicles with a used one. The labour involved makes such a risk not worth taking. Typical rebuild for a ZF auto is £3,000 with a 24 month / 24,000 mile warranty, or £2,700 for an Aisin auto. Automatics easier to drive, compared to manual? Not if the driver is good. Hydraulic clutches in modern cars are light. Cable clutches on older cars may be stiffer. Are they more expensive to buy, and look after? Certainly. Are the running costs higher than a comparable manual? Absolutely. Is a manual tranny likely to outlive the car it's fitted to? Undoubtedly. The alleged comfort of an automatic versus the cost of upkeep, makes automatic ownership a fragile and uncertain enterprise. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by viperman: 12:20am On Dec 09, 2011 |
Siena: Haba! You and Ikenna make it sound like maintenance of Automatics are that bad GENERALLY. Based on my experience with customers and their reports, there are few cars that are prone to high auto-tranny maintenance cost e.g the murano, and many people dont have/buy such cars anymore. I knwo people who have been using their toyota camry's for over 1yr and haven't had to change their gear fluids, no issues whatsoever. I'm pretty sure they aren't the only people enjoying auto-trannys like that. So like jcshols wrote, its a personal choice thing. |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by Nobody: 12:41am On Dec 09, 2011 |
^^^ Viper, I never said all automatics are fragile - read through my post, and carefully this time.  The Toyota Camry is just one of thousands of makes out there. Besides, 1 year trouble-free motoring with an automatic is hardly a record. I also said there are different schools of thought as to whether the fluids, filters and gaskets should be replaced. Some say yes, some weight up the cost and choose not to. The point still remains, modern automatic trannies are no where near as robust as the real old 3-speed Borg Warner units, that were purely hydro-mechanical. No electronics involved. And of course a manual will outlive both, even on the lower end of the market. I'm also a member of several other forums - Bimmerforums, Range Rover forums, Jaguar forums to name but a few. And the transmission sections are an eye opener for the less technical. I work on all makes of automobile for a living, and have seen it all, over the years. Just one more thing, Viper - dig out any thread, from 2005 - 2011, where any member has requested assistance with a bust manual tranny. Then search for 30 automatic-related threads from just 6 months back, where users have had issues. That should be a revelation to those new to automobile, or confirmation to those more versed in the innards of modern automatic trannies. 5 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by kuntash: 6:45am On Dec 09, 2011 |
I dont know if Siena had mentioned it here, "EXERCISE" many people dont this, I discussed this issue with Siena some months back when I complained of my leg while driving a Manual tranny car some 5yrs ago, and he advised me I should try engage myself in one form of exercise or the other. truly, after I dumped my manual for an auto, my hip joint pain didn't really disappear like that, it was still there. and I noticed then my clutch was really not too soft as it should be. But after engaging in some exercise for like 3 months or so, I really felt I could do anything, Also if the clutch are soft enough, u wouldn't have worries, come to think of it, many people staying in places like Lagos doesn't have time to do other things, and this isnt good, Auto is pleasurable, but manual is kool and somewhat makes u a feel like a real driver , 2 Likes |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by PHIL2011: 7:53pm On Dec 10, 2011 |
@ Siena: what about the transmission coolers (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/towing/equipment/accessories/transmission-coolers1.htm ). I have no mechanic abilities like you. Should this not do the trick in preventing overheating problems in automatic transmission? As to my preference in manual vs automatic I believe both camps are right. In the automatic cars I have driven (Hyundai Sonata 2008, 2.0 4 cylinder diesel and Ford F150 2004, 5,4 V8) the automatics where not responsive enough therefore not allowing dynamic, active, high speed driving in turns. Only manuals respond quickly enough allowing for breaking on the motor (because of downshifting) before entering a turn and picking up speed in the second half of the turn (whilst being in a lower gear). This may not be the case of tiptronnic (allthough the Hyundai Sonate had a tiptronnic interface) automatics of near-luxary and luxurary cars in the Audi-BMW-Mercedes and RollsRoyce-Bentley category. Since I have never driven these type of cars I cannot comment on the responsiveness of these high-end automatics. I also would like note that driving in a frontwheel drive (both the Hyundai Sonata and the Ford F150 (in the 2WD mode) is much different than a rear wheel drive (Baby Siena: please give me some tips on this, because when I used to drive a 1992 BMW725i in those days I was not able to adjust to the fact that I was being pushed forward instead of being pulled forward. I allways had the feeling the back of my car wanted to drive a different direction than the front - thus giving me a very unstable feeling. I am sure this was due to my inexperience in back wheel drives, but even in my Ford F150 I do not like driving in the 4WD hi mode on the highway (unless it is raining) because I get the same feeling the back car is pushing me in directions I do not want - this also happens when the truck is fully loaded): so how do you drive a back wheel drive actively? Here in Niga I however only have driven manuals. SUV and nice cars seem to be magnets to armed robbers so to my great dismay I am driving a manual Nissan Primera 1.6 (is at 1996?) - the car gives me no problems except 5 X a changed tirerod in 9 months due to very bad roads (allways changed for 2500N or less). Personally I would much more prefer to drive a automatic SUV (as the Lincoln Navigator I so on Nairaland foor 800k) - but these vehicles have a yuppy image and in certain parts of Nigeria it will definitely lead to robbers following the driver leading to robbery, obduction or far worse especially when other factors (outward appearance, type of job, type of house, etc) reinforce this image. Therefore in my opinion the choice to drive manual or automatic depends on a lot of factors. I believe automatic cars are easier and more comfortable to drive. You however cannot push an automatic to start it unlike a manual. Because automatic transmissions have more parts there can potentially be more problems, but I do not know if a transmission cooler can bypass this. When however you live in parts in the world where image means everything either because it can promote you (e.g. your carreer) or it can kill you (armed robber magnet) you may not (like in my unfortunate case) may not be free to choose automatic or manual cars because of your preference. Bearing in mind that certain cars you can only buy in automatic versions and lower end card may only be bought in manuals. Allthough I prefer automatic cars (since I prefer comfort over dynamic driving capabilities) my surroundings dictate me to drive a low-end manual car  1 Like |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by KenmanResources: 5:30pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
Please i need help here. I recently bought a Toyota Highlander 2005 model, and on my way to Port Harcourt from Lagos, precisely at Agbor enroute Asaba, the car stopped and refused to move. I found out that the pedal was flat. When i contacted a mechanic, they said its a gear box problem. They brought a scanner to check the car, it read ''TRANSMISSION FLUID, TEMPERATURE CIRCUIT.......'', and a code followed ''PO712''. Now i need to buy a gear box, and also get a very good mechanic to fix the gear box. Where do i get a good gear box with guarantee, and a mechanic to fix it? PLEASE HELP!!! |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by Nobody: 7:32pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
I am not an auto guru, when people like Siena, Ikenna et al talk about cars, I read and humbly learn and believe me I've learnt a lot from these guys, but when it comes to the "battle" between auto and manual I think I can talk not as a Guru but based on my personal experience. I live lagos and I used to have a business in Benin. For 7years I was driving from lagos to Benin @ least thrice a week in my small nissan sunny 1.6 with a manual gear (lil Sunnie I still miss u) later changed it to a 96 honda accord still manual. Apart from this I used an aunt's Honda Pilot and Crv for a while. When in comes to responsiveness you cant compare a manual transmission with auto. Manual automobiles are responsive. My God they are! They are best for long journeys you are part of the action every second of the journey. They are engaging to drive, they are sweet to drive. The driver is in control. Personally I cant drive a vehicle with auto tyranny longer than 2hrs for fear I'll dose off no matter how modern or luxurious. If I want to be driven, then I'll get a driver. But if I really want to drive, then I'll get a manual. In terms of maintenance you cant even begin to compare the two I bought my wife a 99 honda accord auto, nice interior, but what I spent on the transmission was enough to buy @ least one other car. And for those saying it causes leg pain I don't know how because in all my years of driving manual never for once have I had an unusual leg pain. Manual all the way. Based on my personal experience. 6 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by elektra80: 8:43pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
gist4real: I am not an auto guru, when people like Siena, Ikenna et al talk about cars, I read and humbly learn and believe me I've learnt a lot from these guys, but when it comes to the "battle" between auto and manual I think I can talk not as a Guru but based on my personal experience. I live lagos and I used to have a business in Benin. For 7years I was driving from lagos to Benin @ least thrice a week in my small nissan sunny 1.6 with a manual gear (lil Sunnie I still miss u) later changed it to a 96 honda accord still manual. Apart from this I used an aunt's Honda Pilot and Crv for a while. When in comes to responsiveness you cant compare a manual transmission with auto. Manual automobiles are responsive. My God they are! They are best for long journeys you are part of the action every second of the journey. They are engaging to drive, they are sweet to drive. The driver is in control. Personally I cant drive a vehicle with auto tyranny longer than 2hrs for fear I'll dose off no matter how modern or luxurious. If I want to be driven, then I'll get a driver. But if I really want to drive, then I'll get a manual. Talk about responsiveness, well I don't think it'd still the same. Newer automatics are as responsive as their manual counterparts. Some people on this site are very quick to condemn automatic cars and think its dummies that drive automatics just because they drive a manual car from abuja to Enugu. Let's take for an example the movie fast and furious 6, most of he stunts were made by real time drivers and 80% of the cars used in that movie are automatics. Do u also wanna tell me those drivers are dummies or u are better than them? Even sports car makers like Ferrari and Lamborghini are switching from manuals to automatics. Automatic cars are faster these days and response just as well.. As for fuel economy, it has greatly improved. The only problem I see with automatics is that they are prone to failure than manuals. But then it is the same with newer technology and needs much attention. I mean would anybody choose a Nokia 3310 over an iPhone? A Nokia 3310 can serve u 5 days without u charging it, try that with an iPhone, I doubt an iPhone can last a whole day without charging. But its obvious iPhone is a better phone, but needs more care. Try dropping an iPhone from 10ft , then try dropping a Nokia 3310 from the same height and see which one shatters. Same thing goes with video player. Back in the days we had video players with video cassette. They are so durable, but now we have DVDs and blu ray players. U any treat a DVD the same way u treat a video cassette. U can drop a video cassete, even when some part of the tape gets damaged, u can still cut it off and glue the remaining part and voila, its playing again, u will only lose the part that was cut off. Try that with a DVD. One huge scratch and the whole DVD is rendered useless. But then with DVD and blu rays we have high definition pictures and audios that we can't get from a video cassette. My point is, with newer technologies come fragility and special care. U cannot treat an automatic the same way u treat a manual, but the usage comes to special preference. For me, I will take the pleasure I derive from automatic over a manual. I will sacrifice the special care and the little mpg I lose over a manual. 5 Likes |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by Nobody: 10:10pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
This thread of mine's been resurrected? The latest failures on automatics (I'm talking mass failure) has been with the new Ford Galaxy, Mondeo, S-Max, C-Max. The transmission fitted to auto models is the dual-clutch transmission, which Ford dubbed "Powershift". The equivalent of BMW's SMG, or Audi / Volkswagen's DSG. For those that reside in the UK, you are not likely to have missed seeing the Panther Black Ford Galaxy's run by Addison Lee, the largest privately run taxi service in the UK. Addison Lee buys 250 Ford Galaxy's a month from Dagenham Motors, Edgware Road. Up until last week, I was contracted to Dagenham Motors, on the night shift. This is a bit long winded, but please bear with me, and you'll see where I'm heading. The Powershift auto transmission in the Ford models I listed above have been far from reliable. Addison Lee is a major client of Ford, given the number of vehicles they purchase monthly. When I visited Dagenham Motors for the first time, the first thing that struck me was the vast number of Addison Lee Ford Galaxies on site. There were never less than 25 at any given time, ranging from 2011 - 2013 models. They were there due to transmission or the wet clutch failure. And due to the fact the backlog of cars waiting to have replacement transmissions or replacement clutch damper units, the "Night Shift" was born. There was simply no way the day staff was going to get through them! Besides the vast number on site, there were more booked in, but not collected, due to space. This was what I ended up with, replacing transmissionns and clutch damper units every night. I've never seen such mass failure of any auto transmission, from just 1 brand, all in one place - some of the failures occured as early as 30,000 miles, on 2012 cars! The manual models I've never worked on, never replaced their clutches. The Powershiftauto tranny in the vehicles I'v e listed are built by Getrag, so are fitted in other vehicles besides Ford. Now, that's a TON of transmissions worldwide, that are waiting time bombs! In countries where warranties are upheld, not too bad, if the cars are in warranty. What happens to failures in cars on Nigerian soil, or other developing countries? The same transmission is used in automatic versions of the Ford Kuga (Ford Escape in North America). Is anyone seeing a pattern here? |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by Ikenna351(m): 10:36pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
elektra80: Is your life so bitter that all you can think whenever you wake up is "Car Talk, Ikenna351 and how to tarnish Ikenna's reputation in Car Talk"? For months now, all you have been doing in Car Talk is "any post or thread Ikenna351 is mentioned so that you paint him black, discredit him,etc"? Any Thread Ikenna starts, you jump in, look for a fault to discredit or show the world how Ikenna is not what he claims he is. Even topics or posts Ikenna didn't contribute anything, you still point out there negatives about Ikenna. What kind of person are you? Are you really such a bitter person? A man for that matter? Take a look at most of your recent posts. A day you didn't post negative comments about Ikenna, you will not sleep. I have beginning wonder why would a fellow man be so bitter about another fellow man that he goes around posting negatives or trying to tell the world how wrong his fellow man has been. Are you doing all these to seek some kind of attention from me or Car Talk members? Attention? Have I ever said I find my fellow men attractive here? If not, what's your purpose? Because its becoming disgusting to me, not just shameful, for a fellow man be tailing his fellow man behind. Or you call Car Talk competition, where you have to tarnish my name so that you become popular or what? Am still trying to understand your end game. Because it has been going on for months and it's no longer funny. A member, gist4real, about an hour ago, posted his opinion on manual vs auto transmission. But you couldn't hold your bitterness if you didn't reply his post without condemning Ikenna first. What does gist4real opinion got to do with Ikenna that you couldn't hold yourself but remember how wrong was? Honestly, you don't need only help, but prayers. Because I wonder what people around you go through, if you can be this bitter about someone online you haven't even met. Honestly, it wont be difficult for you to give me poison if you have the chance. You must be hating yourself that I still breath. Those who are observant must have known what has been going on. Some,probably are enjoying electra80 negative comments about me. Of course, some may have been waiting for me to react so that I would be attacked of been too harsh, arrogant, name them. This is not the first time. But I will say this, I don't find it funny to be personally attacked for months from an individual. I cant keep ignoring such attack because am a moderator. Yes, I could ignore some slights or insults, but not when an individual has made it a duty for months. So electra80, whatever your mission, with regards to me is, am not interested in my fellow men sexually, am not competing with anyone in case you think you need to bring me down to rise or whatever that have made you so bitter about me. Make no mistake, my patience may run one day if you continue your mission. The day that happens, I will remind you that as a moderator, even if I do not see insults on other members, I see mine each time I log in here. It has gone on for a long time and has become too personal for me to ignore again, even if that what will take me off this section as a moderator and a member. Ikenna 1 Like |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by elektra80: 11:03pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
Ikenna351: Abeg make I hear word mr moderator. Can u mention somewhere in my post where I mentioned ur name? Everybody was giving their opinion, am I not entitled to mine? Abeg free me, I'm not interested and I have not broken any rules here. If u have something pinching u then don't bring it to me. Why do u always think I'm referring to u everytime I make a comment here, don't u have better things to do? So whenever there is an issue of automatic vs manual then I should not comment. Or whenever Peugeot is mentioned I should not make my opinion. OMG u make me laugh, seriously u won't stop making me laugh, u are one really funny guy and I see u are easily wound up. Keep it up dude. |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by Nobody: 5:51pm On Nov 07, 2013 |
viperman: Ikenna, the manual transmission is good no doubt, thats probably why its still used for formula-1 racings and Rally's.thank you jare. Some people just think they can talk. I used to drive a Toyota Corolla 1978 model with manual tranny. I drove it till 2004 then I dump the car. I bought my camry automatic because I wanted auto. I hate the manual tranny like shiit. My parents left manual cars for auto. My mom was driving the old vw beetle. She later drove the 78 corolla before I took it from her. She bought her Benz W123 in 2000 with auto tranny, and since then the car has never had a single issue and mind you, the car is well driven. We have another volvo 740 GL 1983 model with auto tranny, bought in 2001 and still going strong now. The tranny has only just stated leaking oil. Well driven car, mind you. We have used a Toyota sienna for two yrs before we lost it to armed robbers. A cool auto car well driven and had no issue till it was stolen at gun point. I just got a C 200 w202 1997 model for my mom with auto tranny. It drives well and it is now about 4 months old. Though I have had issues with my own camry, but I can categorically say the issue came with it from USA and I was unlucky with mechanic. I intend to buy an E350 very soon with auto tranny. I won't touch a manual, it ain't just my type and do not think we who won't touch it are copying. Copying who? Who the hell are you people driving manual trannies are not copying? Did not a car exist in Europe before Nigeria? Then may be u too are copying the Europeans. 1 Like |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by Nobody: 5:51pm On Nov 07, 2013 |
viperman: Ikenna, the manual transmission is good no doubt, thats probably why its still used for formula-1 racings and Rally's. |
| Re: Automatic Transmission: Do Their Benefits Outweigh Their Issues? by elektra80: 8:13pm On Nov 07, 2013 |
tpacalipse: thank you jare. Some people just think they can talk. I used to drive a Toyota Corolla 1978 model with manual tranny. I drove it till 2004 then I dump the car. I bought my camry automatic because I wanted auto. I hate the manual tranny like shiit. My parents left manual cars for auto. My mom was driving the old vw beetle. She later drove the 78 corolla before I took it from her. She bought her Benz W123 in 2000 with auto tranny, and since then the car has never had a single issue and mind you, the car is well driven. We have another volvo 740 GL 1983 model with auto tranny, bought in 2001 and still going strong now. The tranny has only just stated leaking oil. Well driven car, mind you. We have used a Toyota sienna for two yrs before we lost it to armed robbers. A cool auto car well driven and had no issue till it was stolen at gun point. I just got a C 200 w202 1997 model for my mom with auto tranny. It drives well and it is now about 4 months old. Though I have had issues with my own camry, but I can categorically say the issue came with it from USA and I was unlucky with mechanic. I intend to buy an E350 very soon with auto tranny. I won't touch a manual, it ain't just my type and do not think we who won't touch it are copying. Copying who? Who the hell are you people driving manual trannies are not copying? Did not a car exist in Europe before Nigeria? Then may be u too are copying the Europeans. +10 for u. Why should we be forced to drive manual just because some James Bond wanna be find it fun. One man's food is another man's poison. I'll save my energy for better things rather than engaging clutch and shifting sticks. Give me a manual any day i will still drive it like a pro. Ask me to make a choice i will choose automatic. 2 Likes |
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