Nairaland Forum

this question has been bugging me for some time now,

the moors, a group of north african muslims who conquered spain and portugal and much of north and west africa, were they negroes mainly or were they like the modern day north african berbers who look like arabs

am hearing that they were blacks who later mixed with the caucasians of the iberian peninsula thereby forming the fair skinned indigenes of morocco

anyone with sufficient knowledge should pls post answers with proof or links to useful info

They were a mixture of Berber and Arab, they were not Negroes, although they may have had some Negro slaves.

Rhodesia:

They were a mixture of Berber and Arab, they were not Negroes, although they may have had some Negro slaves.

who asked you to reply, silly b. itch, what can you say about this thread u created below
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-822392.0.html

ur reply isnt welcome, horrible lowlife t. ramp like u, shapeless caucasian animal

racist African. without us you would be in the Stone age.

Rhodesia:

racist African. without us you would be in the Stone age.

Actually, no. Its common knowledge that many African societies went from the stone age to the iron age before Europeans arrived.
http://history-world.org/africa1.htm
http://www.theshorterword.com/hist_ancient/classic-ages-stone_bronze_iron.htm
http://archaeology.about.com/od/iterms/g/iron_age.htm
http://www.ehow.com/about_4703040_iron-age-farm-implements.html

It was those in the Americas that were unable to leave the stone age until the age of exploration by Europeans.

Crayola1:

Actually, no. Its common knowledge that many African societies went from the stone age to the iron age before Europeans arrived.
http://history-world.org/africa1.htm
http://www.theshorterword.com/hist_ancient/classic-ages-stone_bronze_iron.htm
http://archaeology.about.com/od/iterms/g/iron_age.htm
http://www.ehow.com/about_4703040_iron-age-farm-implements.html

It was those in the Americas that were unable to leave the stone age until the age of exploration by Europeans.

Are you minding that 11 year old Rhodesian duance.

E-Engineer:

the moors, a group of north african muslims who conquered spain and portugal and much of north and west africa, were they negroes mainly or were they like the modern day north african berbers who look like arabs

am hearing that they were blacks who later mixed with the caucasians of the iberian peninsula thereby forming the fair skinned indigenes of morocco

You have to be careful when you make reference to the words negro, black, berber and Arab regarding to the use of the word "moor" because it connotates all the afore mentioned. There were mostly certainly "arabized" indigenous berber and black African tribes that existed in north Africa enough to render the word compatible within the "moor" context and it would not have been strange to find a so called "negro" looking African within the anks of Arab armies or political positions.

The below individuals are all of north African extract and to the eyes of some northern spaniards "who were the primary opposition" to the moorish invasion would pass for what was considered Moor in those days

see below

morpheus24:

You have to be careful when you make reference to the words negro, black, berber and Arab regarding to the use of the word "moor" because it connotates all the afore mentioned. There were mostly certainly "arabized" indigenous berber and black African tribes that existed in north Africa enough to render the word compatible within the "moor" context and it would not have been strange to find a so called "negro" looking African within the anks of Arab armies or political positions.

The below individuals are all of north African extract and to the eyes of some northern spaniards "who were the primary opposition" to the moorish invasion would pass for what was considered Moor in those days

so which group was the  majority among the moorish armies, was it the blacks or berbers

E-Engineer:

so which group was the majority among the moorish armies, was it the blacks or berbers

of course thats and easy answer, the berber tribes dominate the North African hemisphere so it is mostly likely they were the majority.

then why were blacks depicted in medieval art in spain, shakespeare even made the play OTHELLO based on a black moorish person

E-Engineer:

then why were blacks depicted in medieval art in spain, shakespeare even made the play OTHELLO based on a black moorish person

For the same reason that was mentioned earlier. There were mutiple tribes that were simulateanously "black and "berber". Specific lines were not drawn based on todays idea of race. It is therefore  not unusual for you to see such depictions if they were high ranking officials or important figures  that came from such groups which would also make "Othello" a plausible character

Please try to get your mind around the racism that existed in the 7th century and the one that was introduced by europeans in the 16th, 17th and 18th century.

Many tribes/ ethnic groups in North Africa lived amicable with each other long before any incursions by Arabs or Europeans.

The below depicts berber north African children (SIWA) who would pass for what is considerd black in Africa today

@morpheus24
thanks for the clarification

moors were not negroid.

Actually, the Moors were neither black nor Arab. They are what we call "Berber". They were desert dwelling nomads who were not Semitic or of the same stock as "Black" Sub-Saharan Africans.

However, they were often times dark, Mediteranean, or brown in skin tone.

Rhodesia:

moors were not negroid.

If the moors were not negroid. What were they?

Please don't say caucasoid. you'll just be embarrassing yourself.

odumchi:

Actually, the Moors were neither black nor Arab. They are what we call "Berber". They were desert dwelling nomads who were not Semitic or of the same stock as "Black" Sub-Saharan Africans.

However, they were often times dark, Mediteranean, or brown in skin tone.

Please read the below link regarding North African beber lineages so you are aware of what you are implying above. In summary Berber male lineages are North East African derived emanating from the indigenous E haplogroups that originated in Africa sharing ancestry with East African haplogroups at an Eb level and West Africans at an Ea level ( I don't want to get into that part but lets just say we are closer relatives than a far away Scandanavian)

60-80% of their female lineages flow in from West Asia with the remaining 20-40% from Sub saharan Africa.

In other words, if you take all the numbers altogether. Beber's are indigenous Africans who have recieved gene flow from surrounding areas including "sub saharan  black Africa"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_North_Africa

moors were arabized berbers and were also mixed with arabs. they were half-breeds. they spoke arabic.

PAGAN 9JA:

moors were arabized berbers and were also mixed with arabs. they were half-breeds. they spoke arabic.

The overwhelming DNA statistics show that berbers were colonized not subplanted. In other words they were mostly abrabized via culture and not genetics.

They are not half breeds.

I did not say Berbers are half-breed. i said only the moors are half-breeds. Berber like the Touareg tribesmen are pur-bred. in fact, i lived among the Touaregh and they follow pure Berber culture. even their religion is not so islamic. they practice some of their old traditional religious practices also which is why city-Berber consider them of lower-class statuts. but these are the true Berber, no doubt.

PAGAN 9JA:

I did not say Berbers are half-breed. i said only the moors are half-breeds. Berber like the Touareg tribesmen are pur-bred. in fact, i lived among the Touaregh and they follow pure Berber culture. even their religion is not so islamic. they practice some of their old traditional religious practices also which is why city-Berber consider them of lower-class statuts. but these are the true Berber, no doubt.

What's the difference between a moor and a berber? I hope you know the use of the term pre dates Islamic incursions by Arabs into the maghreb

Tuareg are nomadic berbers in contrast to Northern farming berber groups whose origins trace through the same routes ancient breber groups took. If you take berber as a linguistic and cultural element ,then Tuareg belong within this grouping speaking a variant of a general afro asiatic berber language, without the relevance of stating they are any such of  "pure breed.

Pure breed of what?

moor are mixed with arab peoples and speak arabic.

Berber are not mixed but speak Berber.

HOWEVER, city-dwelling Berber are known to have mixed with french and arab peoples.

The Touaaregh are pure-Berbers because they have never mixed with any other ethnicity, since they are endogamous and only marry within their peoples.

PAGAN 9JA:

moor are mixed with arab peoples and speak arabic.

Berber are not mixed but speak Berber.

HOWEVER, city-dwelling Berber are known to have mixed with french and arab peoples.

The Touaaregh are pure-Berbers because they have never mixed with any other ethnicity, since they are endogamous and only marry within their peoples.

Again ,what constitutes the differnce btw a moor and a berber?

Is it langugge, ethnicity or genetics. Prove your ascertion.

@pagan 9ja, where did you meet the tuareg people u stayed amongst, the nomadic tuareg, where in the world did u meet and live with them

the Berber are a more advanced sub-species of homo sapien than the Negroid.

morpheus24:

Again ,what constitutes the differnce btw a moor and a berber?

Is it langugge, ethnicity or genetics. Prove your ascertion.

Moor: Language: Arabic
Ethnicity: mixed (Arab & Berber)
Genentics: mixed.

The moors were initially Berbers who upon conversion to islam, started behaving like arabs and adopted arabic language, customs similar to arabs, etc. iver a period of time, they became so arabized that they started considering themselves as arabs and in order to ascertain this, mixed with the arab peoples through marriage alliances, etc. Today, they are a mixed race.

Berber: A "true" Berber is one that has never mixed with any other peoples apart from his own group. Berbers speak Berber language and have Berber culture, etc despite having islamic religion. However, today, many city-dwelling Berbers have some amount of french/arab ancestry,. therefore in order to seek the TRUE BErbers, one must encounter the Touareg who have never mixed due to strict tribal rules. The Touareg can therefore be called Pure Berbers.

E-Engineer:

@pagan 9ja, where did you meet the tuareg people u stayed amongst, the nomadic tuareg, where in the world did u meet and live with them

i did not exactly live with them, but there weere Touareg peoples near my hometown in Gumel. they used to come seasonally and i even used to speak with them. Some knew Hausa, yet we usually spoke in broken french, since i didnt know Tamajiq.

Rhodesia:

the Berber are a more advanced sub-species of homo sapien than the Negroid.

shut up.

The Moors are Chocolate Africans. Even Othello from Shakespeare was a chocloate moor.

The moors were undeniably black. When they firs came to Spain in 711 it was mostly chocolate Africans. Read some Ivan Sertima books: http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Golden_age_of_the_Moor.html?id=gAC81Tsh2bwC
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JMY1p0t_bHoC&source=gbs_book_similarbooks
Or watch some of his lectures on youtube.

If you want an idea of what the moors looked like. Think of a cross between a Hausa person and a somali or fulani. They would be extreamly dark skinned with narrow features. Perhaps like a really dark skinned arab.  Their similarity to the arabs is not completly from mixture however, the two groups are actually very similar as part of the Afro-Asiatic group.

The word moor means Black, and they were depicted as black at the time, anyone who tries to deny this is simply stu[i]pi[/i]d.

^^^^^^^^^^bOTh^^^^^^^^^^^^

the moors were black and arab.

in fact my nickname is Morena where i live.
Morena comes from the word MOOR, and is Spanish. It's no secret
the Moors invaded and dominated the Iberian peninsula and were called
Morenos which in Spanish means: people of dark skin and hair. 

The Moors and Berbers are ethnically related and both have played large
roles in both African and Mediterranean history. In fact they also played a role
in the trans Atlantic and Mid. eastern slave trade as they were known middle
men who owned African, Middle eastern and white slaves (sorry to spill the beans
Rhodesia  ) but it was never about race, at least not at first  - but rather
indentured servitude which they adopted from their African heritage.

PAGAN 9JA:

[The moors were initially Berbers who upon conversion to islam, started behaving like arabs and adopted arabic language, customs similar to arabs, etc. iver a period of time, they became so arabized that they started considering themselves as arabs and in order to ascertain this, mixed with the arab peoples through marriage alliances, etc. Today, they are a mixed race.

Your above logic is invalid and incoherent. There is no sense in stating that a moor was an arabized berber and somehow became non berber as a result. Present day berbers are arabized berbers. Berber tribes before the islamic conquests consisted of many tribes including so called Black berber tribes of which the tuareg, siwa and a lot more belong. North Africans are not genetically Arab. They are arabized. They are not heavily mixed with Arabs as the conquerors did not suplant the populations via breeding them out. Show me the evidence of a mixed north African population. Simply stating it out loud does not mean it is true. Your ascertin has no evidence. Please prove north Africans are heavily mixed with Arabs.

PAGAN 9JA:


Berber: A "true" Berber is one that has never mixed with any other peoples apart from his own group. Berbers speak Berber language and have Berber culture, etc despite having islamic religion. However, today, many city-dwelling Berbers have some amount of french/arab ancestry,. therefore in order to seek the TRUE BErbers, one must encounter the Touareg who have never mixed due to strict tribal rules. The Touareg can therefore be called Pure Berbers.

absolute rubbish. tuareg are a sahelian sahara nomads who speak a dialect of the overall grouping of berber languages. They are in no way true berbers and are infact a combination of nomadic popels migrating from the east and absorbing several poepls into the culture. how doI know genetics supports this ascertin as turaeg show a substantial amount of sahelian, sub saharan and west Asian dna markers