reporter?:

What El Rufai is proposing is not rocket science -increase electricity tariffs to attract private investors to come in and revamp the moribund PHCN.  No private investors will commit their money into any unprofitable venture.

As per fuel subsidy; his position is similar to that of many Nigerians; phase out the subsidy gradually to cushion the sudden effect on regular Joe who requires petrol for everything. Truly, Nigeria govt should get out of commercial business, all these parastatals breed is corruption.

For those comparing the two products:  apples and oranges, two different products.  [size=18pt]One is a natural occurring resource while the other is a generated resource. Nigeria produces oil and does not generate enough electricity to begin with. How can a nation subsidize what it does not produce enough of?
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[size=18pt]Petrol can subsidized it if the govt can get its act together by removing excessive wastage. Electricity on the other hand has to be financed through private initiatives, and the only way to make it attractive to investors is to raise tariffs enough to cover costs and leave room for profit[/size]. I am not sure about 400 % though.

You succeeded in arguing for and against Elrufai with respect to this discussion, suggesting a state of double speak (hypocrisy), with some amusing vibes as well    .

Elrufai proposal is = correct for the moribund PHCN = correct for the moribund refineries = correct for subsidy removal

Power generation utilizes heavy machinery to harness our natural resource = same with crude oil exploration and refining till they get to their final consumer 

They are different products, though.

If bad subsidies have ruined the market for PMS, I have alternatives. I can buy from the black market for slightly higher than I'd like (say 20% or 30%), or use diesel.

At worst my cost of fuel is going up by some manageable percentage. . . sucks, but not a deal breaker.

If bad subsidies ruin the market for electricity, you are screwed. Your alternative is basically buying your own generator. . . which is basically paying 3X or 4X what your competitors in other countries will pay.

Nobody will sell you black market electricity in a bottle or can.

The investment required to generate electricity is enormous. The investment required to supply refined oil is not. . . you just pay somebody to ship you a tanker of fuel from a refinery.

ekt_bear:

They are different products, though.

If bad subsidies have ruined the market for PMS, I have alternatives. I can buy from the black market for slightly higher than I'd like (say 20% or 30%), or use diesel.

At worst my cost of fuel is going up by some manageable percentage. . . sucks, but not a deal breaker.

If bad subsidies ruin the market for electricity, you are screwed. Your alternative is basically buying your own generator. . . which is basically paying 3X or 4X what your competitors in other countries will pay.

Nobody will sell you black market electricity in a bottle or can.

You also succeeded in arguing for and against your self. Whats the diff whether the alternative is in a can/bottle or in a generator?

ekt_bear:

The investment required to generate electricity is enormous. The investment required to supply refined oil is not. . . you just pay somebody to ship you a tanker of fuel from a refinery.

It is interesting that you conveniently discounted the cost of building the refinery that would refine the fuel.

No, I have not.

Implicitly I'm assuming a certain level of understanding from the reader when I write. Perhaps I shouldn't have.

By "alternative", I mean "alternative that is not exorbitantly priced and allows me to compete in the modern world."

Generating electricity from a diesel or gasoline generator simply is too expensive. . . any electricity-intensive goods you are trying to produce will simply cost too much money.

muami:

It is interesting that you conveniently discounted the cost of building the refinery that would refine the fuel.

It is not necessary to build a refinery in your own country to be able to get refined fuel at market prices (or slightly above.)

It is likely that refining locally will be slightly less expensive, but not massively so.

However, while I can import refined PMS at affordable prices, I cannot import electricity at affordable prices (well you actually can, but we don't have any neighboring countries who produce excess.)

ekt_bear:

They are different products, though.

If bad subsidies have ruined the market for PMS, I have alternatives. I can buy from the black market for slightly higher than I'd like (say 20% or 30%), or use diesel.

At worst my cost of fuel is going up by some manageable percentage. . . sucks, but not a deal breaker.

If bad subsidies ruin the market for electricity, you are screwed. Your alternative is basically buying your own generator. . . which is basically paying 3X or 4X what your competitors in other countries will pay.

Nobody will sell you black market electricity in a bottle or can.

Both sectors are moribund

Both sectors are under the government though PHCN is passing through some process to be privatized

Both sectors are supposed to be running optimally considering the resources at hand

Both sectors have seen billions plunged into them without tangible results seen

Both sectors have endemic corruption as the reason to their rut, since it is managed by the government.

Both sectors are keys to economic growth.

Both sectors enjoy subsidies because what we pay as electricity bills is way cheaper than what should have been.

Both sector [/b]is in dire need of private investment and cash inflow to optimally harness the potential that have being laid to waste.

When Elrufai gave his suggestion to the NERC, [b]both sectors were doing very badly

If we have similarities between both sectors, facing similar conditions and with a similar approach to addressing the challenges.

Elrufai current advocacy against the fuel subsidy is therefore, a double speak/ hypocrisy  

ekt_bear:

It is not necessary to build a refinery in your own country to be able to get refined fuel at market prices (or slightly above.)

It is likely that refining locally will be slightly less expensive, but not massively so.

However, while I can import refined PMS at affordable prices, I cannot import electricity at affordable prices (well you actually can, but we don't have any neighboring countries who produce excess.)

Glad you realise that your argument is only valid due to the particular location of Nigeria. In other words, the diff is not in the products/sectors.

El Rufai is not saying subsidies must stay forever and ever, until Christ returns.

He is saying that he wants certain conditions and benchmarks attached to them being removed.

Do you guys understand this point, or not?

If you do understand this point, then clearly he is not being hypocritical.

muami:

Glad you realise that your argument is only valid due to the particular location of Nigeria. In other words, the diff is not in the products/sectors.

By "location of Nigeria", you mean being on the African continent, where almost no one produces electricity in abundance?

Yes, it makes sense when arguing to remember what continent your country is in

Anyway, there are other differences. Just read the other posts I made in this thread.

Hopefully now it is clear why they aren't the same sort of product.

^^bro, main problem is that people don't listen, once you are not their guy, they switched off as soon as you start talking, even is the guy was telling them there is danger in on their way.
the guy made very good point and he is in support of deregulation that is in planned and implemented in structured and transparent manner.

There’s no question that electricity tariff has to be raised and I wouldn’t doubt that the rate should be about 300-400% of what it currently is.

With electricity, we don’t have any real inherent advantage right off the bat for getting it cheaper than the rest of the world. The only thing that will give us a major advantage in the long run is the abundance of natural gas that we have.

However, how are you going to get the natural gas to the power stations that need it to generate electricity? The cheapest way over the long haul is to use pipes but that will require billions of dollars in investment.

To get electricity 24/7 in Nigeria, you need:
1. New and modern power plants to increase production capacity
2. Fuel delivered to power the turbine-power plants (all that solar and wind stuff will be way too costly)
3. More efficient transmissions lines that connects power stations to cities
4. Modern transformers to step up/down the voltage
5. More efficient distribution lines within the cities
6. Modern meters to monitor power usage

Where will the tens of billions of dollars that will be needed come from?

BUT the government cannot just completely abandon the people to the whim of private companies. They will need a regulating agency that work with the private companies to determine the electricity tariff.

Unlike GSM, one cannot switch to different electricity carriers (based on the current plan) if the price of your provider is too high or you’re unhappy with the service provided. You are pretty much stuck with whoever wins the power distribution license in your area. As such, the government needs a regulating agency.

ekt_bear:

El Rufai is not saying subsidies must stay forever and ever, until Christ returns.

He is saying that he wants certain conditions and benchmarks attached to them being removed.

Certain conditions including the fixing of refineries and buildiing of trust before prices can be hiked but argues that electricity tarriffs shd be hiked even without building trust or enlightening the people so that investors can come in to build the (refineries) power plants. How else are people going to break it down for you?

ekt_bear:

El Rufai is not saying subsidies must stay forever and ever, until Christ returns.

[size=16pt]He is saying that he wants certain conditions and benchmarks attached to them being removed.
[/size]
Do you guys understand this point, or not?

If you do understand this point, then clearly he is not being hypocritical.

Appears you are the one not getting the whole drift.

Did Elrufai provide certain conditions and benchmarks to be put in place when he suggested a whooping 400% increase in electricity tariff to attract the necessary investors ?

I just gave you similarities both sectors share.

To enable us have a clear view of what he said then, and what he is currently saying now under similar conditions, bedeviled by the same reasons of corruption and wastage in governance

Do you understand this point or not ?

If you do understand this point, then clearly he is being hypocritical  

Remii:

^^bro, main problem is that people don't listen, once you are not their guy, they switched off as soon as you start talking, even is the guy was telling them there is danger in on their way.
the guy made very good point and he is in support of deregulation that is in planned and implemented in structured and transparent manner.

, Afterall supporting an unstructured and rushed deregulation of the electricty sector, which is the crux of the hypocritical accusation here

Rad1cal:

Appears you are the one not getting the whole drift.

Did Elrufai provide certain conditions and benchmarks to be put in place when he suggested a whooping 400% increase in electricity tariff to attract the necessary investors ?

I just gave you similarities both sectors share.

To enable us have a clear view of what he said then, and what he is currently saying now under similar conditions, bedeviled by the same reasons of corruption and wastage in governance

Do you understand this point or not ?

If you do understand this point, then clearly he is being hypocritical  

Thank you Rad1cal cos I don't know how else to explain this seemingly simple point

Rad1cal:

Did Elrufai provide certain conditions and benchmarks to be put in place when he suggested a whooping 400% increase in electricity tariff to attract the necessary investors ?

He made no comment whatsoever about conditions and benchmarks, to my knowledge.

However, the quotes from him in the article represent a goal, not a specific plan to actualize that goal.

Or are you saying that his suggestion of the increase was the plan:

1. immediate increase
2. no conditions, no benchmarks

Is that how you all are interpreting the quote in the OP?

That is an interesting way to read the sentence.

Kindly tell us how you knew the timeframe was immediate?

The way you all read and interpret things, let me never say "I like chicken" around you. Otherwise you'll interpret this to mean that:
1) I hate beef
2) I hate pork
3) I'm hungry for chicken right now
4) I'd like the chicken roasted
5) I'd like Star beer with the chicken

muami:

Certain conditions including the fixing of refineries and buildiing of trust before prices can be hiked but argues that electricity tarriffs shd be hiked even without building trust or enlightening the people so that investors can come in to build the (refineries) power plants. How else are people going to break it down for you?

When did he say that those things shouldn't be done?

Kindly provide us with a quote from El Rufai where he advocated for IMMEDIATE tariff increase, with no conditions or strings attached.

I challenge anyone reading here to provide such a quote.

ekt_bear:

He made no comment whatsoever about conditions and benchmarks, to my knowledge.

That is the only meaningful reply as to the crux of our issue so, cased closed.

Your other attempts is a childish ploy to foot drag this exchange into a realm of futile guesses and unnecessary thin air extrapolations.

He made a categorical statement, which was empirical to our debate.

I rest my case and move on .

Thanks for the engage 

If you agree that he made no comment whatsoever about conditions and benchmarks when talking about electricity, then how on earth can you possibly call him a hypocrite?

The whole argument for him being a hypocrite is that he DIDN'T attach things before but IS attaching conditions now.

Without that, you have no point.

Geez. When people reason like this, no wonder a country does not progress.

ekt_bear:

When did he say that those things shouldn't be done?

Kindly provide us with a quote from El Rufai where he advocated for IMMEDIATE tariff increase, with no conditions or strings attached.

I challenge anyone reading here to provide such a quote.

It does'nt really matter if you don't understand the clear and categorical statement he made. What matters is that the NERC boss understood that El Rufai was saying that he shd 'be bold' and 'immediately' increase the tariff which was why the report noted as follows:

"However, Amadi appeared to differ from el-Rufai’s approach to tariff increase as he explained that there was need to build legitimacy for the process through enlightenment"

Personally, Mallam El-Rufai's comment shows that he's being a hypocrite. However, it's not unheard of and maybe he has "seen the light" since leaving office!

OK.

This is getting weird.

Everyone will concede that he made no specific mention of any timeline or plan for how to achieve his 400% increase.

Muami seems to believe that he wanted an immediate increase, with no conditions attached.

As evidence for this, he doesn't supply any words directly from El Rufai's mouth.

Instead, all we get is this:

However, Amadi appeared to differ from el-Rufai’s approach to tariff increase as he explained that there was need to build legitimacy for the process through enlightenment.

He lamented the “tragedy in Africa that we don't bring leaders back to reflect on their experiences. So they litter the landscape”.
Amadi stressed the need not to discard “our best”, which he said informed the decision to get el-Rufai to speak on the topic, “Leadership and Change Management.”

http://www.thisdaylive.com/articles/el-rufai-electricity-tariff-needs-to-go-up-400-/88421/

Notice no direct quote from Amadi on the topic. Instead we get the newspaper's opinion of how Amadi's approach is different.

So it is on the basis of this single bolded sentence written by the no doubt worthy Patrick Ugeh of Thisday Newspaper upon which we are to conclude that El Rufai is a hypocrite.

Not anything he said directly.

Not any quotes from him.

Not even a direct quote from a third party.

But instead from the sentence in bold, we are to conclude that El Rufai wanted an IMMEDIATE increase in the electricity tariff, with absolutely ZERO conditions attached.

If you all choose to interpret his words in that way, there is nothing else really I can say.

If you choose to judge what a man's policy is for achieving a goal from that single sentence, what should probably be written up in a 10+ page policy paper of some sort, that is certainly your prerogative.

But hopefully it is clear why at least a few (including yours truly) would not reason in this manner.

Rad1cal:

You succeeded in arguing for and against Elrufai with respect to this discussion, suggesting a state of double speak (hypocrisy), with some amusing vibes as well    .

Elrufai proposal is = correct for the moribund PHCN = correct for the moribund refineries = correct for subsidy removal

Power generation utilizes heavy machinery to harness our natural resource = same with crude oil exploration and refining till they get to their final consumer 

@Rad1cal

It may seem like double speak if El Rufai's statment is not properly evaluated .


I) He is pro subsidy removal with conditions  = petrol price hike

ii) In the same vein, he is pro increase in electricity tariff = elctricity price hike.

If he condenms subsidy removal in absolute, then his posit can be construed as doublespeak, and clearly that is not his position on subsidy removal.

He is pro hike in both cases, but with conditions in respective to subsidy removal.
I do not see any hypocrisy here.

Now, someone may argue legitimately that why did he not stipulate similar conditions for elctricity before recommending increasing in electric tariffs since both are cluster fu&k anyway.

It's unfortunate they right statements are coming from the wrong quarters nowadays. i must confess that our tarrif is cheap, and Nigerian dont even mind 300% increase really. What they want is stable Electricity. Even if they are from a Nuclear powered sites!

Depends on what the current tariff rate is. I don't think most Nigerians will consume government supplied electricity if its too expensive or unaffordable. They will simply shift over to a cheaper substitute, which is their generators

In my own opinion I see is as a retrospective comment, only saying that PDP should also increase electricity tariff and see what the outcome will be. I think he wants the PDP government to get into more troubles so to speak add to the one on ground right now. No normal human will even do that.

How much is our minimum wage? How many hours do Nigerians normally have electricity in a day?? In relative to these 2 questions, electricity is not cheap.

El Rufai, you again ?

El-Rufai has no moral grounds to criticise GEJ's approach to subsidy removal. He rendered many families homeless in Abuja in the name of sticking to the Masterplan. - i supported him then. I also support GEJ's radical approach even if many Nigerians (including myself) will feel the pain. Both the power and oil sectors must be deregulated with immediate effect! Its up to us, the general public to fight corruption. Channel the protests to the Local Govt 1st, cos 90% of them dont hav a blueprint. Our state governors and House of assembly members, Senators, Reps, Executive in that order. (By the way, did any of u 'sort' while in school? If yes, you are guilty of the corruption as well)

Even the labour leaders know that 'emergency comrades' like El Rufai are just merely pursuiing their own agenda.

According to the Vice-President of the NLC, Comrade Issa Aremu:"

"There are also some forces who are not in government, who have different professions and they want to have a different agenda. I don't want to mention names because now we have emergency comrades. Don't you know what we call emergency comrades? Those who used to be in government and even oppressed workers. They are now identifying with us. I don't want to mention names but you know them".