What difference does it make if Jesus did or did not undergo serious blood loss while being prepared for or undergoing execution?

Answer: According to the New Testament, blood must be shed in order to obtain atonement. The author of the Book of Hebrews maintains that obtaining forgiveness of sin always necessitates that there must first be a shedding of blood (Hebrews 9:11-12, 22). Luke's Jesus claims that his blood was shed for his followers (Luke 22:20).

In the biblical blood sacrifice offering, a token blood letting is not sufficient nor is mere death sufficient. The sacrifice has to die through the shedding of blood. At no time did Jesus suffer blood loss to the extent of it being the cause of his death. Neither the blood loss due to the scourging (Matthew 27:26, Mark 15:15, John 19:1), the nail wounds (John 20:25), or crown of thorns (Matthew 27:29, Mark 15:17, John 19:2) caused Jesus' death. As a result, not only was Jesus' death not an everlasting atonement for sin it was not even a sacrifice.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=80:was-jesus-blood-loss-before-execution-important&catid=44:crucifixion&Itemid=489

LagosShia:
What difference does it make if Jesus did or did not undergo serious blood loss while being prepared for or undergoing execution?
 
Answer: According to the New Testament, blood must be shed in order to obtain atonement. The author of the Book of Hebrews maintains that obtaining forgiveness of sin always necessitates that there must first be a shedding of blood (Hebrews 9:11-12, 22). Luke's Jesus claims that his blood was shed for his followers (Luke 22:20).

In the biblical blood sacrifice offering, a token blood letting is not sufficient nor is mere death sufficient. The sacrifice has to die through the shedding of blood. At no time did Jesus suffer blood loss to the extent of it being the cause of his death. Neither the blood loss due to the scourging (Matthew 27:26, Mark 15:15, John 19:1), the nail wounds (John 20:25), or crown of thorns (Matthew 27:29, Mark 15:17, John 19:2) caused Jesus' death. As a result, not only was Jesus' death not an everlasting atonement for sin it was not even a sacrifice.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=80:was-jesus-blood-loss-before-execution-important&catid=44:crucifixion&Itemi

ANSWER:

John 19:32-35
32. So they asked Pilate to hasten their deaths by ordering that their legs be broken. Then their bodies could be taken down.32 So the soldiers came and broke the legsof the two men crucified with Jesus, they saw that he was already dead, so they did not break his legs.
34. One of the soldiers however pierced his side with a spear, and immediately blood and water flowed out.
(NLT)

"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." - Matthew 7:6

frosbel:

"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." - Matthew 7:6

your jewish masters are telling you the koko (the real thing) on jewish beliefs.and Jesus said he was sent to the jews and he does not give what is for the children (jews) to the "dogs" (gentiles).

"frosbel",ironically in this case you are the dog!!!!

see further:

"Was Jesus A Racist Based On The Bible?"
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-838252.0.html

Vivian. SA:

LagosShia:
What difference does it make if Jesus did or did not undergo serious blood loss while being prepared for or undergoing execution?

Jesus was a jew and he said he was sent to the jews and he said he came not to destroy the law or the prophets.

so based on jewish laws of atonement and sacrifice,there are things to be observed for the sacrifice to be accepted.

the few threads i recently opened are based on jewish teachings of sacrifice and atonement which very much expose christianity.

You seem to like blood so much,afterall Mohammad made lots of Blood sacrifices to Allah.

Apparently,thats why Blood and Islam go hand in hand.

The blood loss was the execution. . He bleed to death.
Secondly , the atonement was not at the cross . The atonement was in heaven where his blood was offered at the homies of holies in heaven.

Joagbaje:

The blood loss was the execution. . He bleed to death.
Secondly , the atonement was not at the cross . The atonement was in heaven where his blood was offered at the homies of holies in heaven.

was he crucified in the temple?

was he "crucified" in heaven?

was his blood tranported to heaven?

does "crucifixion" within 3 hours (as the new testament says of the alleged crucifixion of Jesus) long enough for blood loss?

we are also told that after Jesus was allegedly brought down,he was struck on the side of his leg and blood came out gushing.that is a sign of a living being.whoever made up that story evidently had no idea.

Jesus became our Lmb and high priest . When he died , his blood was shed, when he rose,he went o heaven and offered his blood in the heavenly temple holies of holies.

That's why he told mary not to touch him. Because he was going to heaven to perform the atonement. He told the desciples to wit for him. He later came back and appeared to them


John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Joagbaje:

Jesus became our Lmb and high priest . When he died , his blood was shed, when he rose,he went o heaven and offered his blood in the heavenly temple holies of holies.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Deuteronomy 21:23
His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shall in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

That's why he told mary not to touch him. Because he was going to heaven to perform the atonement. He told the desciples to wit for him. He later came back and appeared to them

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Luke 24:39
Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

Harsh as it may appear, this is the advice Christ gave to his children with regards to the the sharing of truths with mockers and scoffers.

"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." - Matthew 7:6

Christ says you are clean by the words I have spoken to you, this is the children's bread and for ONLY those who are converted and Born again.

Trying to explain the deep truths of the word of God with an unsaved person is like trying to reason with a pig about the merits of cleanliness.

Therefore only after a man is converted will he begin to appreciate and understand the truths of God.

For now what they need to hear is the message of SALVATION. Yes feel free to share the gospel of John and other salvation related passages with unbelievers, but avoid getting dragged into deep truths.

That's why I do not bother explaining these deep truths to mockers and scoffers, they do not have the Holy Spirit in them , so how on earth do you expect them to grasp the importance of scripture.

The Quran we can argue about because there is absolutely zilch spirituality to it, it's lies are easily engaged and debunked with ordinary and most times elementary logic.

Why are you guys arguing with this person? Is it not obvious that the muslim god needs them to defend IT? He is just doing what he needs to do. So don't blame him.

@Lagoshia; seems you know so much about the Bible, But I've been waiting for a day when a muslim will preach Islam to me without having to talk about the Bible or the Jesus of the Bible. With your wealth of knowledge, I think you can make that day come, But until then, I don't listen much to,

LagosShia, you should make more efforts in finding ways to make your islam less confrontational.
Why are you so keen in the bible, if all you do is twisting the words in the bible.
You can't grasp the eternal knowledge and understanding that is in the bible.
Based your researchs on your quaran, then most people will take you serious.

Macavelius:

LagosShia, you should make more efforts in finding ways to make your islam less confrontational.
Why are you so keen in the bible, if all you do is twisting the words in the bible.
You can't grasp the eternal knowledge and understanding that is in the bible.
Based your researchs on your quaran, then most people will take you serious.

the article in the OP are not my words.By God,i only wanted to present to you christians and show you what your jewish masters are saying.the link is there.

habiolah:

@Lagoshia; seems you know so much about the Bible, But I've been waiting for a day when a muslim will preach Islam to me without having to talk about the Bible or the Jesus of the Bible. With your wealth of knowledge, I think you can make that day come, But until then, I don't listen much to,

when i attend lectures in a Hussainiyah or Masjid or any Islamic centre,i cannot remember when last they made mention of the bible or quoted from it.so you have to start by believing in the Quran.then we shall address you as muslim by quoting for you the Quran.

do you remember what Jesus said? "you do not give the food meant for the children to the dogs"!!!

Interesting! You just quoted what JESUS said in the BIBLE again. LWFMF(laff wan finish my fuel)

habiolah:

Interesting! You just quoted what JESUS said in the BIBLE again. LWFMF(laff wan finish my fuel)

exactly!

i cannot speak Yoruba to a Japanese.i'd look crazy!!!

LagosShia:

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Deuteronomy 21:23
His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shall in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Luke 24:39
Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

I don't know your point here. But you must understand the old testament to have full comprehension of the new. Firstly there's a sanctuary in heaven . Jesus had 2 ascensions. Jesus died on the cross but his blood was not offered on the cross. His blood was shed on the cross. He died ,went to the regions of the dead, and he was raised by the holy spirit on the third day. That morning ,he ascended As our high priest with his own blood ,to offer it in the heavenly sanctuary . That's why he wouldn't allow mary to touch him. Because he was performing a priestly duty that morning.

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

After he ascended, he came back in the evening and people could then touch him.

John 20:27
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

So there's a parallel to this in the old testament. The body of the scape goats were killed outside the city but their blood were brought to make atonement at the sanctuary alter.

Jesus also was killed outside the city and his blood was offered at the heavenly sanctuary.

Hebrews 13:10-11
We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. 11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

Hebrews 9:11-15
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Joagbaje:

I don't know your point here. But you must understand the old testament to have full comprehension of the new. Firstly there's a sanctuary in heaven . Jesus had 2 ascensions. Jesus died on the cross but his blood was not offered on the cross. His blood was shed on the cross. He died ,went to the regions of the dead, and he was raised by the holy spirit on the third day. That morning ,he ascended As our high priest with his own blood ,to offer it in the heavenly sanctuary . That's why he wouldn't allow mary to touch him. Because he was performing a priestly duty that morning.

you left the post unanswered for a while and you now came to pretend ignorance of what you said? even you are lying? does anyone of you really know what you are practicing or the bible? must you always lie?

you said Jesus could not be touched because he was going to perform an atonement.i showed you a verse where Jesus is asking someone to touch him.ofcourse you cannot explain why earlier he was telling the first person not to touch him.you cannot explain that because you have being limited from thinking why!

After he ascended, he came back in the evening and people could then touch him.

this is where you are lying.please show us where Jesus is said to have ascended to heaven and came back.after the alleged "resurrection", we are told Jesus was hiding.why was he hiding?he was afraid of the jews.that is in your bible.the only place where Jesus is said to have ascended without coming back is in Mark 16.and even there,the verses 9-20 are relegated by bible scholars to a footnmote because they lack authenticity.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-739871.0.html

he actually told Mary Magdalene not to touch for two possible reasons:

1.) he was in pain after the beating he underwent from the court on his way to the crucifixion site up to the point Simon took the cross from him whereby Jesus possibly escaped.
2.) he does not want a stranger or foreign woman to lay hands on him as muslim men should.

also,he wanted to prove to Thomas who was doubting that he was not a man who rose from the dead.that he was not a spirit.that it was a physical Jesus who had flesh and bones.the verse in Luke says that.

John 20:27
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

So there's a parallel to this in the old testament. The body of the scape goats were killed outside the city but their blood were brought to make atonement at the sanctuary alter.

Jesus also was killed outside the city and his blood was offered at the heavenly sanctuary.

there is no where in jewish tradition where human beings used to be killed and their blood brought to the temple.it does not exist.based on jewish belief human blood is unclean for sacrifice or atonement.

Hebrews 13:10-11
We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. 11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

Hebrews 9:11-15
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

the above verse do not say the blood was transported.Paul is telling you in his own imagination that Jesus is greater than animals and bla bla bla.

likewise you too are dreaming that Jesus carried a cup of his blood to heaven to sprinkle and later came back and later went up again.you people should stop dreaming.at least even if you are not muslims,follow what you can back with your scriptures and not what you think or imagine could have happened.

LagosShia:

exactly!

i cannot speak Yoruba to a Japanese.i'd look crazy!!!

now, that's exactly what it looks like to me when you try to 'preach' the Bible because the more you read, the more you become confused, why? It is not given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom - you are not born of God, neither do you have the spirit of God in you to teach you. The letter killeth, it is the spirit that giveth life. Argueing with you on what the Bible says sounds exactly like what you wrote up there

habiolah:

now, that's exactly what it looks like to me when you try to 'preach' the Bible because the more you read, the more you become confused, why? It is not given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom - you are not born of God, neither do you have the spirit of God in you to teach you. The letter killeth, it is the spirit that giveth life. Argueing with you on what the Bible says sounds exactly like what you wrote up there

Case closed.

Thank you very much.

God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

The proud scoffers and mockers will NEVER understand except God in his mercy opens the eyes of their spiritual understanding.

LagosShia:

you left the post unanswered for a while and you now came to pretend ignorance of what you said?

What question? Pls re post it

you said Jesus could not be touched because he was going to perform an atonement.i showed you a verse where Jesus is asking someone to touch him.ofcourse you cannot explain why earlier he was telling the first person not to touch him.you cannot explain that because you have being limited from thinking why
this is where you are lying.please show us where Jesus is said to have ascended to heaven and came back.after the alleged "resurrection",

I thought my post was clear enough. Jesus was both lamb and high priest.  When he died , the holy spirit had left him.  It was the 3rd day that the holy spirit entered him again. And by that spirit he ascended to offer his blood in the heavenly sanctuary.

Mary met him before he could ascend (first ascension ) he didn't allow her to touch him. Nobody touches the high priest while he is perform duty. He had to keep himself pure.

the only place where Jesus is said to have ascended without coming back is in Mark 16.and even there,the verses 9-20

JeT here was an earlier ascension in John 20.

You should know also that Jesus still stayed around for about a month after resurrection before he finally left. So what ascension was he talking about to Mary. It was obvious the reason he wont be touched was because he had to ascend immediately. Look at that scripture again.

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

The scripture was clear that the reason he wouldn't want her to hold him back was because of the errand he had to perform.

If he says ". . Touch me not ,for I am not yet ascended to my Father" means you can touch me after I come back .
I don't know how many minutes or second it took him to get to heaven and back. But one thing was clear , it was not because mary was a woman he didn't allow her , it was because he had duty to perform. That's why there was possibility to touch him when he came back.

In addition ,the question you should ask yourself is ' at what point Jesus enter the sanctuary in heaven with his blood.

 Heberews 9:11
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

It was at resurrection that the holy spirit entered him after God had forsaken him on the cross being Sin. He offered his blood by the holy and eternal spirit. Because the holy spirit came into him and raised him from the dead . And he ascended to heavenly sanctuary to offer his blood by the sprit and came back . And people were able to touch him.

rather than argue with Lagoshia, I think folks should simply witness Christ and get people saved. The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved, it is the power of God (1Corinthians 1:18)

rather than argue with Lagoshia, I think folks should simply witness Christ and get people saved. The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved, it is the power of God (1Corinthians 1:18)

@Joagbaje
please show us any verse where Jesus is said to have being making 'heavenly trips' and back to earth.you will not find one.

Show me where Jesus is said to have ascended into heaven after the alleged resurrection and came back to earth.you will not find one!

'for i have not yet ascended unto the father' means 'i am not dead'.it is an idiom you can find more about its meaning.

Moreover,how are you sure the verse in John where he talks about ascension is not referring to the inauthentic account in Mark 16? Oh i see,you imagined he made a journey to heaven with a glass of his blood to sprinkle on your mysterious heavenly altar.there is no verse to back your imagination or that reports that he went and came back.do you agree?you could as well imagine he took a glass of his blood for God to drink (astaghfirullah).

The only place in the bible Jesus is reported to have ascended into heaven and never to return back to earth as at today is in the inauthentic account in Mark 16.other than that NOTHING!

Joagbaje:

What question? Pls re post it

I thought my post was clear enough. Jesus was both lamb and high priest.  When he died , the holy spirit had left him.  It was the 3rd day that the holy spirit entered him again. And by that spirit he ascended to offer his blood in the heavenly sanctuary.

Mary met him before he could ascend (first ascension ) he didn't allow her to touch him. Nobody touches the high priest while he is perform duty. He had to keep himself pure.
JeT here was an earlier ascension in John 20.

You should know also that Jesus still stayed around for about a month after resurrection before he finally left. So what ascension was he talking about to Mary. It was obvious the reason he wont be touched was because he had to ascend immediately. Look at that scripture again.

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

The scripture was clear that the reason he wouldn't want her to hold him back was because of the errand he had to perform.

If he says ". . Touch me not ,for I am not yet ascended to my Father" means you can touch me after I come back .
I don't know how many minutes or second it took him to get to heaven and back. But one thing was clear , it was not because mary was a woman he didn't allow her , it was because he had duty to perform. That's why there was possibility to touch him when he came back.

In addition ,the question you should ask yourself is ' at what point Jesus enter the sanctuary in heaven with his blood.

 Heberews 9:11
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

It was at resurrection that the holy spirit entered him after God had forsaken him on the cross being Sin. He offered his blood by the holy and eternal spirit. Because the holy spirit came into him and raised him from the dead . And he ascended to heavenly sanctuary to offer his blood by the sprit and came back . And people were able to touch him.

How on earth do you expect this PAGAN to understand the word of God, he needs to be converted first !!!!

You're right sir.

1 Corinthians 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

@Lagoshia;
preach to me what Islam is, whta the Quran says, what Allah and Mohammed promised and why it is important for me to believe it. Convince me that Islam is the way without having to mention the Bible - is this too much to ask?
If I was a muslim, you know, I would believe that our religion is a response to what we perceieve as flaws in Christianity - or why else are we so interested in the Bible and what it teaches? You want to put the Bible down so that the Quran can gain better relevance - I laugh in Swahili.
I have never read the Quran but based on what I have always heard preached by muslims, I can say that it is written because Mohammed wants to disprove the Bible. Don't yab me for this - that's the picture muslims (including you) have revealed; expecially by not being able to preach five sentences without mentioning the Bible.

@Lagoshia;
preach to me what Islam is, whta the Quran says, what Allah and Mohammed promised and why it is important for me to believe it. Convince me that Islam is the way without having to mention the Bible - is this too much to ask?
If I was a muslim, you know, I would believe that our religion is a response to what we perceieve as flaws in Christianity - or why else are we so interested in the Bible and what it teaches? You want to put the Bible down so that the Quran can gain better relevance - I laugh in Swahili.
I have never read the Quran but based on what I have always heard preached by muslims, I can say that it is written because Mohammed wants to disprove the Bible. Don't yab me for this - that's the picture muslims (including you) have revealed; expecially by not being able to preach five sentences without mentioning the Bible.

frosbel:


How on earth do you expect this PAGAN to understand the word of God, he needs to be converted first !!!!

am i the one who believes in mythology?

Joagbaje:

You're right sir.

1 Corinthians 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

i dont know since when has imagination,hallucination and finding loopholes to insert imaginative stories in between become "spiritual".that is only in christianity.and you actually take pride in that and feel your are "spiritual" in imagination.

in all the verses containing the word ascension including Paul's which also speak of "ascension",we find no where in the bible Jesus ascending other than in the disputed account in Mark 16.so if you think he did within minutes before meeting his disciples after meeting Mary Magdalene,then that is not backed by any text.very simple understanding.common sense.

moreover,when taking John 20:17 and the verse "i have not yet ascended" which means "i am not dead yet " into perspective,a verse of the Quran comes to mind which informs us how Jesus was caused to "die" (which could be physical or spiritual meaning in an unconscious state like slumber as the arabic word "mutawaffika" could mean either) and then taken up:

"Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee (mutawaffika) and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute". – [Holy Quran 3:55]


Holy Quran 5:116-117
"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness".