Delomos is again 100% on point

ekt_bear:

Delomos is again 100% on point

Yeah right. *bows to delomos*

Start with java. It is the easiest and best for beginners. It also gives you the foundation required to learn any other language easily.

nwanna89:

Start with java. It is the easiest and best for beginners. It also gives you the foundation required to learn any other language easily.

Try and read previous answers and understand why Java might not be such a great choice.

delomos:

Try and read previous answers and understand why Java might not be such a great choice.

Just speaking from experience. Am doing a masters in Computer Engineering, and all the new languages am forced to use are relatively easier for me to understand, because of my background with java. Starting programming with any of the functional programming languages isn't usually a good idea. Object oriented programming especially with java is easier for the beginner, because most of the implementations are done under the hood for the programmer. So, thats just my opinion.

nwanna89:

, because most of the implementations are done under the hood for the programmer. So, thats just my opinion.

1. Can you tell me those non-java languages you're referring to AND what you did in those languages?
2. Isn't hiding implementations (at least when learning), a crutch?

Yes, there are tons, and tons of java libraries/methods, and, even more Java programmers writing "crutched" code.

delomos:

1. Can you tell me those non-java languages you're referring to AND what you did in those languages?
2. Isn't hiding implementations (at least when learning), a crutch?

Yes, there are tons, and tons of java libraries/methods, and, even more Java programmers writing "crutched" code.

C, python, prolog are more lean more towards the functional programming paradigm than imperative programming. I have a good number of non-java languages, and I must say, java has been the easiest so far. Hiding implementation is not the best for a professional/expert programmer. But, for a beginner, it is usually better for him not to know a lot about what is going on under. This way, he understands the basic syntax and semantics of programming, before delving into the more complicated stuff. Java is closely related to C#. C# is somewhat close to C++, and C++ isnt too far from C. That is the progression I used, and I was able to program with C without ever opening a book to learn it. Just saying

Java is not as simple as a language like Python or Ruby for the following reasons:

a) library dependencies. Is your classpath variable set up properly for this external class you want to use?
b) strong typing of java
c) Compiling versus just interpreting a script
d) REPLs (Java has one I've used before, but it isn't very good.)
e) Nice functional features like each(), map(), reduce() are missing from Java (I understand that Java now has an enhanced for loop that is similar to this, but not quite as good.)
f) Java doesn't have first class functions. So if you want to send a function object to another class/function, you first have to wrap it in a class.

All of these things I think make the above two languages a better choice for beginners than Java.

Not to mention the simpler syntax:

1) Semicolons at the end of lines optional in ruby
2) If a method f of an object b has no arguments, can simply write b.f rather than b.f()

Obviously for an experienced person, none of the above are fatal flaws.

But for a person relatively new to programming, simpler is best.

Yea I agree with most of your points above. Java tends to be more verbose than some other languages. However, the reason I say java is better for a programmer is because its easier of the eyes of the new programmer, and better illustrates the major programming concepts like encapsulation and all. Am only speaking from my experience however. Might be different for others. There is no one language better than the other. It all depends on what the poster is looking for.

so if my goal is to develope for mobile OS, I must learn a high level language that is entirely unrelated to my objective? How plausible is that?. I started with C++ and I can't see any deficiency in my coding ability. Granted, It was tough but that was because of the vast libraries (which is very intimidating) but all I did was I chose a pattern and stuck to it. now I can understand most codes without studying their syntax. If I had started with python, I see myself doing twice the work cos I will struggle with python as a beginner and then struggle when transcending to C++ and it's manual memory management issues. "hard" is always good unless you are lazy or have a partial interest in programming. I also believe that what language u choose to learn is irrelevant if you can't design an efficient algorithm.

If your goal is to develop for the Android (iPhone), you should probably just start with Java (objective C I suppose?). I imagine that it will be VERY rough going though, if you are completely new to programming period.

On the other hand, if you are just interested in learning how to program in general, and aren't specifically interested in making phone apps or whatever, I would suggest Python or Ruby.

(Btw, supposedly you can use scripting languages to write apps for phones.)

@nwanna89

nwanna89:

, Java is closely related to C#. C# is somewhat close to C++, and C++ isnt too far from C. That is the progression I used, and I was able to program with C without ever opening a book to learn it. Just saying

Java, C#, C++ <== C and usually, most people (project) stick to one of those. And you made a good point, perhaps if you read the original question, you might answer that, s/he is trying to decide between C# or PHP.

@lordZOUGA
I must admit, I'm very lazy, actually, that what got me attracted to programming, my laziness, if I can make a computer do the work, why the f^^k should I be doing it? Since you're quite hard-working, you found 1 pattern and stuck to it, serious? Of the dozen+ popular patterns, you stuck to just one? I think that explains why you don't see any deficiency in your codes; how about leaving C++ alone for a while, get back to your beginners mind and learn && understand a few more patterns perhaps it might help you write more efficient algorithms.

I wonder what the big-deal is with learning languages self. Haba? I learnt too many languages to count - i even learnt other human languages sef. Kini big deal.

@poster, if you cannot learn real languages, go and learn languages like HTML, Cold Fusion, Or Heck - Go and Learn How To Install and Customized Wordpress - All those CMS Installers for nigeria are now calling themselves programmers.

*dhtml:

, Go and Learn How To Install and Customized Wordpress - All those CMS Installers for nigeria are now calling themselves programmers.

Amen oo [size=15pt] [/size]

delomos:

@nwanna89[/b]Java, C#, C++ <== C and usually, most people (project) stick to one of those. And you made a good point, perhaps if you read the original question, you might answer that, s/he is trying to decide between C# or PHP.

[b]@lordZOUGA
I must admit, I'm very lazy, actually, that what got me attracted to programming, my laziness, if I can make a computer do the work, why the f^^k should I be doing it? Since you're quite hard-working, you found 1 pattern and stuck to it, serious? Of the dozen+ popular patterns, you stuck to just one? I think that explains why you don't see any deficiency in your codes; how about leaving C++ alone for a while, get back to your beginners mind and learn && understand a few more patterns perhaps it might help you write more efficient algorithms.

I think at this point, it's safe for me to say that you don't really know what u are saying. Every programmer has a pattern that makes his code different from the next programmer. The differences can either be subtle or prominent but it's always there. I don't give a damn about what u think of my coding ability so am going to leave you to ur conclusions on that. @op, please refrain from asking this type of questions on Nairaland, am new here too and it took me a while to understand that these guys can talk. I think you have been given enough advice. Act wisely.

That thread was created by a "CMS installer" => https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-864802.0.html
The order are:
CMS Installer < CMS User < CMS Extensions Developer < Above

@ jim jones & afamguy: U guys are not serious. u two must b programo-comedians. abeg make we talk beta tin ojare!
For one, I av just started learnin worthwhile programmin in d Java language (I only knew au to program in fortran bifor) but I didnt knw ruby & python were so in vogue though I knew they existed. html I knw to b very much in use for websites, & I knw C to b kind of like d elder/senior but not really d father of dem all. I just tink ur choice depends on wat u want to do-websites, blogs, apps & applets, oop wit a lot of GUIs etc.
@op learning two languages depends on u. However, I tink practice is key-will u b able to exhaustively practise d two? so i advise u to take one, bcom an all-problems-solvin guru in it & tacklin odaz aint gonna b hard. programmin is about who u r & wat u can do, & not really all about syntax. chiao

^^^You just insulted the Italiano language - it is ciao - pronounced chow (for both bye and hi) - i am a multilingual actually. Sorry for the digression amicos.

lordZOUGA:

I think at this point, it's safe for me to say that you don't really know what u are saying. Every programmer has a pattern that makes his code different from the next programmer. The differences can either be subtle or prominent,

If you're talking about coding style, yes. If you're talking about Programming/Software Design Patterns, NO. You can't just stick to one. Is just like saying, in coding I found arrays and I stuck to using only arrays in my data structures.

See here about design patterns: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_design_pattern

Thank you guys, really appreciate the help and the community sense, I'll let you know of which of the languages I wanna go with as soon as I finish reading all the posts.

@Fayimora

Fayimora:

[font=Comic Sans MS][size=12pt]@delmos and @ekt I think ya'll should read this => http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1113611/what-does-ruby-have-that-python-doesnt-and-vice-versa DO you want to know why google uses python?

@delomos I doubt if Ruby is faster. . . Matz himself said Ruby supports convention over performance.

1. Yes, I do know why Google uses python. Do YOU know why Facebook uses PHP, or why Groupon uses Rails? What exactly is your point?

2. Every modern language (c. 90's+) are caring more for convention, readability over speed. So, in the speak of is Ruby faster; the real question is, faster to write or faster to execute? And yes, it's absolutely faster to write.

@*dhtml : U definitely speak a lot of languages & even computer languages- sùgbón sé E gbó tiantia? Sé E gbó ède Oòduà? & Est ce que vous comprenez le Français? Est ce que vous êtes nigerien?? Ou tu es d'où
Actually, I didn't mean to kill d word. As d ambassador of d italian language, *dhtml please accept my apologies. Ódàbò

Thanks a lot guys, at first, the thread made me a bit more confused but after reading all the posts, I have an idea of the way forward in my new programming quest!

I've played with .Net and PHP earlier, but I want to get into serious web development now. Building powerful web based applications like social media and ecommerce sites. I think I'll go with Python for now or may be ruby if I can get my hands on ruby on rails.

vinderbilt:

, but I want to get into serious web development now. Building powerful web based applications like social media and ecommerce sites. I think I'll go with Python for now or may be ruby if I can get my hands on ruby on rails.

Good choice, just cut all the bullsh$t, for your ruby on rails, this is awesome: http://ruby.railstutorial.org/ruby-on-rails-tutorial-book?version=3.2#top

It takes you from zero knowledge to building full scale web app (by the time your done with the lessons, you will have build a twitter clone).

foluski:

@*dhtml : U definitely speak a lot of languages & even computer languages- sùgbón sé E gbó tiantia? Sé E gbó ède Oòduà? & Est ce que vous comprenez le Français? Est ce que vous êtes nigerien?? Ou tu es d'où
Actually, I didn't mean to kill d word. As d ambassador of d italian language, *dhtml please accept my apologies. Ódàbò

Otio, emi ko ni ambassador italo, my second language after ingles is espanol, and my french is average, and si i can speak yoruba fairly well.

Now back to the topic - i love the arguments of these guys - full of facts rather like Lawyers.

@ *dhtml : Considerin d number of languages u say u understand, u don gbìyànjú. but u haven't answered my question: Tu es d'où?
@ evribodi (*dhtml, nwanna89, etc): pls can u giv me d full gist of all d places to get books & tutorials? I av deitel's Java: how to program 9/e. d help wil b appreciated.

If you just want to do web development stuff and at the same time use a good language/toolchain, I'd suggest Ruby on Rails.

This in particular is really useful: http://ruby.railstutorial.org/

Doesn't teach your Ruby though. Just teaches you Rails (they are different things.)

If you want to learn Ruby syntax, use this: http://ruby-doc.org/docs/ProgrammingRuby/

Fayimora, I don't think a 20% or 30% speed difference in Ruby vs. say other languages is a huge deal. The bottleneck these days is man-hours, not really computation. You can always just throw more computers at the problem, then worry about optimizing later.

I doubt Twitter would have gone anywhere if they'd implemented in an annoying language like Java from scratch.

No, they built their systems first in Ruby, then later started moving critical, performance-sensitive components over to Scala (a JVM language.)

The default version of Ruby on my computer is actually JRuby (Ruby for the JVM.)

You can write Ruby scripts than can be compiled to jar files. This can come in really, really damn handy. . . write everything in an easy language like Ruby, then find the bottlenecks in your code and re-implement those in Java.

@ekt_bear

ekt_bear:

1. Doesn't teach your Ruby though. Just teaches you Rails (they are different things.)
,
2. Fayimora, I don't think a 20% or 30% speed difference in Ruby vs. say other languages is a huge deal. The bottleneck these days is man-hours, not really computation. You can always just throw more computers at the problem, then worry about optimizing later.
I doubt Twitter would have gone anywhere if they'd implemented in an annoying language like Java from scratch.
No, they built their systems first in Ruby, then later started moving critical, performance-sensitive components over to Scala (a JVM language.)

1. There's actually a chapter there on ruby (rather brief though, just enough to get along with rails), one will need a more serious book to enough ruby idioms though ('Programming Ruby' comes to mind which i'm actually going through now)

2. Nailed it. I should also add that is what has lead to the growth of agile development, man-power is very expensive.