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Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? - Religion - Nairaland

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Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by pilgrim1(f): 6:00pm On Oct 16, 2007
Hi @donnie,

I've now tried to open this thread for the discussing on issues revolving around the atoning work of Christ - a 'brought-forward' from the other thread "Who Is The Angel Of The Lord?" so that we don't derail that topic.

Now, the concerns you expressed were that:

       * Jesus went to 'HELL'

       * Jesus took upon Himself the very nature of Satan

In due course I will be bringing out the issues you'd posted (here and there) earlier and discussing them here. Perhaps you may want to make any editing or modifications in the meantime; and if you're satisfied thereto, you'd be reading my rejoinder.

Cheers. smiley
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by pilgrim1(f): 12:42pm On Oct 18, 2007
@donnie,

As an intro, I'm reposted my initial response here which I brought forward from the other thread:

Just for the meantime, I'd like you to carefully think on a few things and then address them in the new thread I opened for the discussion:

donnie:


pilgrim.1 link=topic=61317.msg1578130#msg1578130 date=1192147285:

(a) nowhere in Scripture is Christ said to have taken upon himself the nature of satan.

NOT TRUE!

It is because you haven't properly defined sin that is the reason you find it hard to understand me.

Okay then. Here are just two things for you to resolve:

[list]* Since your reply says it is "NOT TRUE" that Christ is noweher said in Scripture to have taken upon Himself the NATURE of SATAN, I would like you to post the verses where indeed the WORD of God says otherwise that He did so!

* It would also be interesting that you help us with a PROPER definition of SIN so that we can understand you better[/list]

Could you help do so? Thank you.

Cheers. smiley
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by Enigma(m): 2:25pm On Oct 18, 2007
The "Jesus went to hell" or "Jesus took the nature of Satan" teaching is a heresy taught by some in the so-called 'Word of Faith' Camp. Unfortunately, heretical (or to be milder, heterodox) Word of faith doctrines are now popular in many Charismatic/Pentecostal churches (and even seeping into some more traditional churches) due to the unquestioning acceptance of teachings of people like the late Ken Hagin (and his son even), Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyers etc.

Many people, myself included, are of the opinion that these people are in many respects teaching false doctrine and even heresies that are damaging the universal Church and, in respect of the "health and wealth" aspects, damaging individual lives.

1 Like 1 Share

Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by Enigma(m): 2:56pm On Oct 18, 2007
Addendum: Incidentally some of us have debated WoFers (as they are sometimes called) over the years on this issue and there are lots of materials on the Internet challenging/debunking the heresy.

To have an idea, you can google the three words that follow the colon: Jesus died spiritually.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by TayoD1(m): 3:01pm On Oct 18, 2007
@Enigma,

Your concerns are well noted. However, would you be so kind as to elucidate more on what the individuals you mentioned taught about Jesus goping to Hell and what you see as the scrioptural backing to oppose their conclusion?

In the mean time, kindly look at the following scriptures and tell us what you understand by them: Ephesians 4:8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." 9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Let us start with those scriptures before we look at others.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by Enigma(m): 3:14pm On Oct 18, 2007
You will have to understand WoF theology in some detail to grasp the full details of their teaching; I can only briefly summarise --- the danger with a summary being that WoFers will claim it does not represent them fully.

Basically, WoFers believe in the "word" and that you use "words" supposedly lined up with the Bible to speak the reality of what you want into existence; they claim you can do this being born again and having the "spirit" you have the power.

The above is traced to some further belief that they hold: (a) God Himself created the world with "words" i.e. faith-filled words; suggesting that God needed faith in order to create the world (God 'needing' faith to act --- incredible!); (b) Jesus Himself on earth was just a man; He did not have powers until He received the spirit and became born again (Jesus born again --- incredible heresy!) and the first born again man; (c) 'born-again' Christians can be like Him although only He 'had the spirit without measure'.

Then the JDS heresy: Jesus needed to go to hell so that 'born-again' Christians would not go there; some of them like Copeland and Meyers have even taught that Jesus was punished in hell by Satan and demons.

Enough on the heresy; now to deal with Ephesians 4:8 as you request:

Firstly, I do not think that anyone can justly say they know the full meaning; but, there are things we can readily work out. "He descended into the lower parts of the earth". Of course He did; He was buried after His death. And that is all that means.

The only reason I say we cannot say we know the full meaning conclusively is another passage where it says He went to preach to the dead --- that bit is more difficult to interprete conclusively or definitively.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by pilgrim1(f): 3:35pm On Oct 18, 2007
Well done guys. Please share more. wink
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by TayoD1(m): 3:36pm On Oct 18, 2007
@Enigma,

Firstly, I do not think that anyone can justly say they know the full meaning; but, there are things we can readily work out. "He descended into the lower parts of the earth".  Of course He did; He was buried after His death. And that is all that means.
You need to try and explain scripture with scripture in to come to a conclusion. The Bible could not just be talking about his body being buried, because His body never left the tomb until He resurrrected. The He that went to the lower parts of the earth is His Spirit. Remember Psalm 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. So you see, this scripture, which is a prophecy about Jesus clearly teaches that jesus went to Hell. But it doesn't mean what many thinks it means becuase Hell as taught in scripture is really a reference to the place of the dead. The different compartments are mentioned in the story of Lazarus. The story clearly shows the righteous held in the earth. the differnet compartments in the earth include Abraham's bosom, and the one regarded as the place of torment. there is another compartment called Tatarus where disobedient angels are held. So from all indications, Jesus was in ALL these parts for different reasons.

The only reason I say we cannot say we know the full meaning conclusively is another passage where it says He went to preach to the dead --- that bit is more difficult to interprete conclusively or definitively.
There is nothing difficult to understand there. It is very simple. Jesus was there to declare God's judgment. Sin was already judged and the basis for throwing the evil spirits in the lake of fire was accomplished on the cross. This is what Jesus went to preach to them about. For those in Abraham's bosom, the Bible clearly teaches that they were taken up to heaven with Jesus during his ascension. Remeber that the bible says that many in Jerusalem saw the dead saints on the day Jesus rose from the dead?

As for your other accusations about WOFers as you call them, I dare say you do not understand what they are preaching and you have only done what fear dictates - call what you don't understand, an error.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by TayoD1(m): 3:40pm On Oct 18, 2007
@Enigma,

suggesting that God needed faith in order to create the world (God 'needing' faith to act --- incredible!)
One thing you have to understand is this. God is subject to the same laws He tells us to keep. God will not tell you to walk in love and He walk in fear. If He does that, then He is not a just God. The Bible declares that without faith, you cannot please God. Same applies to God. Infact, the Bible declares that "anything that is not of faith is SIN". Sin is essentially "missing the mark". So God will be "sinning" i.e. missing the same mark that He has established if He does not create the world in and by faith. Remember Romans 3:23? The Bible says the only reason why we have sinned is because we have "fallen short", which is the same thing as "missing a mark". SELAH!
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by Enigma(m): 3:47pm On Oct 18, 2007
Naaah; God is sovereign and can do whatever He likes. God does not "need faith" to do anything.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by pilgrim1(f): 3:51pm On Oct 18, 2007
Hi @Tayo-D,

Tayo-D:

@Enigma,

suggesting that God needed faith in order to create the world (God 'needing' faith to act --- incredible!)
One thing you have to understand is this. God is subject to the same laws He tells us to keep. God will not tell you to walk in love and He walk in fear. If He does that, then He is not a just God.

Uhm. . . I think that, first, we should see that Enigma was summarising the position of the WOF; and like him, I find that particular point of God 'needing' faith an incredible summation indeed to make!

It is important to distinguish between WHO and WHAT God is in Himself from what He asks us to be and do. For instance, God IS Love (1 John 4:16), and He loves us (John 3:16). But though WE are asked to "walk in love" (Eph. 5:2), I still don't find anywhere the bible said "we ARE love".

It is indeed an almost impossible position to maintain that God is subject to the same laws He tells us to keep. If that were the case, would He still be "God"? grin
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by TayoD1(m): 3:54pm On Oct 18, 2007
@Enigma,

Naaah; God is sovereign and can do whatever He likes. God does not "need faith" to do anything.
God is sovereighn, true. But His sovereignty does not contradict His Word. Saying God can do anything is not true. the bible declares that God cannot lie.

Tell me can God steal, cheat, lie, be fearful or change? His sovereignty is bouded by His Word which He cannot contradict!
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by TayoD1(m): 3:54pm On Oct 18, 2007
I have a meeting now. i'll jump back in the topic when I'm done.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by Enigma(m): 3:58pm On Oct 18, 2007
Tayo D

In relation to your post no 7, instead of giving you my own reply I will refer you to the article in the link below to see that there are different ways of interpreting those passges that do not agree with what you say. (I have debated those passages and WoF doctrine for going on 10 years now and I'm either too busy or blase to go over them again).


http://www.crivoice.org/dead.html

Edit:

Meanwhile in relation to your post number 11, if I say "God cannot dance" --- what would you say to that?
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by TayoD1(m): 5:29pm On Oct 18, 2007
@Enigma,

In relation to your post no 7, instead of giving you my own reply I will refer you to the article in the link below to see that there are different ways of interpreting those passges that do not agree with what you say. (I have debated those passages and WoF doctrine for going on 10 years now and I'm either too busy or blase to go over them again).
I have gone through your link and it does not offer a balanced view of the topic at hand. Not only does it not refer to all the scriptures that imply Jesus went down to hell, it basically ignores the truths in the verse it addresses. Implying that Jesus went down to hell simply refer to His body being buried stands logic on its head. The Bible clearly mentioned that he went to the lower PARTS of the earth. Please note that the word is in plural and not singular. And Psalm 16 that I mentioned earlier puts emphasis on the soul of Jesus being the one in hell and not His body. So my guy, you have more questions than answers if you keep to that view.

I think your aversion to the possibility of Jesus going to hell is becuase you believe it is only the sinners who go there. Well, the story of Lazarus teaches us that both the righteous and the dead go down into different sections in the lower parts of the earth.

Meanwhile in relation to your post number 11, if I say "God cannot dance" --- what would you say to that?
I will ask you to prove it! Let me ask you a question too. When Paul said "I can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens me", was he by that implying that he could steal, kill and destroy also? Isn't the "ALL THINGS" he can do guided by God's Word? Well, same thing with God. He cannot break His Word. There is nothing He does that is not guided by His Word. Check out Psalm 138: 2 - for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by TayoD1(m): 5:33pm On Oct 18, 2007
@Enigma,

I think I need to explain Psalm 138:2 better for you to understand where I am going. You see in the OT, God's name is synonymous with His manifestation. In other words, a revelation of God comes through what God is seen doing! But in the scripture above, we are told that God exalts His Word above all His manifestations, or whould we say God exalts His Word above His actions.

By that token, we can conclude that His actions are guided by His Word. There is nothing He will do in sovereingty or otherwise that will be contrary to His Word. SELAH!
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by Enigma(m): 7:22pm On Oct 18, 2007
Tayo

Please forgive me as I really do not want to debate this topic again; just do further study on the subject - openly and with a willingness to ascertain the truth. In other words show a willingness to truly re-examine what you already believe ---- and at the end of it all, hold on to what you find to be truth.

I of course will still make occasional comments or raise a question here or there.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by TayoD1(m): 7:45pm On Oct 18, 2007
@Enigma,

I will advise you take your own advice as well. Try not to be bogged down by what you think is the truth. Weigh in scripture with scripture and thereby make a conclusion prayerfully.

And again, try not to fall for this labelling becuase all the people you've accused of heresy here probably have varying beliefs in this topic. I for one believe Jesus went to hell, but not as a sinner. I believe the evidence is there in scripture.

All the very best.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by Backslider(m): 8:32pm On Oct 18, 2007
@Enigma

I have posted all about this people and their doctrines begins to show up in this part of our world.

The preachers you have mentioned I have said it and say it again that this people are false prophets. Their belly is the way of Hell.

You need to have great discernment to know outrightly that this MOGs are the priest of the altar of Satan KNOWINGLY OR UNKNOWINGLY just read bellow.

THE CHURCH OF SATAN PREACHES THAT SATAN IS GOOD AND JESUS IS EVIL (Good and evil theory). IF WE AGREE THAT JESUS TOOK THE NATURE OF SATAN THIS MEANS JESUS CAME TO USURP SATAN'S AUTHORITY. SHOWING THAT JESUS IS THE EVIL ONE HERE. SO SATAN RULES THE WORLD AND THERE WAS PEACE IN THE WORLD UNTIL JESUS CAME TO USURP THE AUTHORITY OF SATAN AND CAUSE THE WORLD INTO SO MANY RELIGIOUS TROUBLE.


SATANIST CAN CLAIM THAT JESUS WAS THE ONE THAT BROUGHT ENMITY BETWEEN MAN AND SATAN THAT THERE PEACE BEFORE JESUS CAME IN THE PICTURE. HE WILL QUOTE THE BELOW VERSE
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


THE SATANIST CAN EVEN QUOTE JESUS( Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword) TO BUTTRESS THEIR POINT THAT SATAN NEVER DID ANY BAD BUT JESUS CAME TO PUT WAR ON THE EARTH.

THIS SATANIST IN ENTERING IN THE HOUSE OF GOD. I SAY WOE UNTO YOU FALSE PREACHERS.

THE QUOTES THAT ARE USED HAVE BEEN SYSTEMATICALLY USED TO POINT TO THE EVIL DOCTRINE. IF YOU LISTENING TO SOME OF THE SUBLIMINAL MESSAGES IN HIP HOP YOU WILL SEE THAT PURE USE OF THIS DOCTRINE. THE HIP HOP ARTIST LIKE JZ THAT IS A KNOWN OCCULTIST.

ALL TRUE CHRISTIANS WE ARE IN THE EVIL DAYS GUARD WHAT YOU LISTEN TO. THE WORLD DOESN'T LISTEN TO THE CHURCH BUT THE CHURCH LISTENS TO THE WORLD AND IS EMULATING PERFECTLY.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by pilgrim1(f): 8:41pm On Oct 18, 2007
Backslider:

ALL TRUE CHRISTIANS WE ARE IN THE EVIL DAYS GUARD WHAT YOU LISTEN TO.

Okay. That's true; and may God help us all to know His truth as we continue to learn. smiley
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by donnie(m): 5:23pm On Oct 21, 2007
Tayo-D:

@Enigma,
You need to try and explain scripture with scripture in to come to a conclusion. The Bible could not just be talking about his body being buried, because His body never left the tomb until He resurrrected. The He that went to the lower parts of the earth is His Spirit. Remember Psalm 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. So you see, this scripture, which is a prophecy about Jesus clearly teaches that jesus went to Hell. But it doesn't mean what many thinks it means becuase Hell as taught in scripture is really a reference to the place of the dead. The different compartments are mentioned in the story of Lazarus. The story clearly shows the righteous held in the earth. the differnet compartments in the earth include Abraham's bosom, and the one regarded as the place of torment. there is another compartment called Tatarus where disobedient angels are held. So from all indications, Jesus was in ALL these parts for different reasons.
There is nothing difficult to understand there. It is very simple. Jesus was there to declare God's judgment. Sin was already judged and the basis for throwing the evil spirits in the lake of fire was accomplished on the cross. This is what Jesus went to preach to them about. For those in Abraham's bosom, the Bible clearly teaches that they were taken up to heaven with Jesus during his ascension. Remeber that the bible says that many in Jerusalem saw the dead saints on the day Jesus rose from the dead?

As for your other accusations about WOFers as you call them, I dare say you do not understand what they are preaching and you have only done what fear dictates - call what you don't understand, an error.

I cannot agree with you more smiley
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by donnie(m): 5:50pm On Oct 21, 2007
That is why i do not like these names and classifications we give ourselves. I think they leave a lot of room for accusation from the accuser.

There is nothing like a penticostal doctrine or an a orthodox doctrine. There is one written word which became flesh which is risen above the heavens for our sakes.

And we through the Spirit of truth do worship this great God of heaven who is mighty in our midst.

It is time to stand by yourself now. It is not the time to argue doctrines and hide behind these names. The just shall live by his faith. God is interested in what you do with what you know so that your glorying will not be in word only but in the demonstration of the Spirit and of power.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by Backslider(m): 6:07pm On Oct 21, 2007
@donnie

Not the faith that says Jesus went to hell and he Took on the Nature of SATAN The old dragon.

If Jesus was in hell where was Satan?

This is the doctrine of Lucifer that he has sent to his satanic Church.

Psalm 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


This was talking to David not Jesus. If it was fulfilled it would have been confirmed in the New testament. The father of false doctrine is Satan. I was defending this doctrine that Jesus went to hell in some thread ago but just mentioned it because I looked at the scripture but there was no one to support this doctrine.

I am no greater than the word of the most high God. This doctrine is a evil one. This doctrine means that all of us must worship Satan in part so that we can be like Christ.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by donnie(m): 6:19pm On Oct 21, 2007
That old man whom many of you claim is alive and working side by side with your new nature was buried with christ. Why did he need to be buried? Because it was dead.

When you understand this you will know what the bible means when it calls Jesus the first born from the dead and calls you a new creation in Christ Jesus.

. . . They having a form of godliness, deny the power thereof.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by donnie(m): 6:31pm On Oct 21, 2007
What nature did the devil have? It was the nature of sin. Devil and sin are inseperable. He is the father of Sin. That is why the bible talks about the man of sin.

Jesus went into hell not as the son of God but as the son of man. He was man's representative. . .The second Adam. He went there because having died in our place, he had to go to hell in our place. He was taken to hell but came out , leading captives in his train.

The bible says he spoiled principalities and powers, made an open show of them. Where? In hell

That is why his name has authority in hell.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by Backslider(m): 6:37pm On Oct 21, 2007
@donnie

If you are Iron you shall be sharpened. For iron Sharpeneth Iron.

Now the old man is sin nature and nothing else.

Rom 8 v

10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


When jesus enters a man he is relatively dead to world. His desires have been mortified.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by Backslider(m): 6:39pm On Oct 21, 2007
Very Good!


Now I will ask you

Did Enoch go to hell?

Did Elijah go to hell?

I am waiting.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by Backslider(m): 6:43pm On Oct 21, 2007
He made an open show on the Cross. no where else.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by Horus(m): 8:57pm On Oct 21, 2007
Jesus Went To 'HELL'?.They don’t know where hell is, or if such a place really exists. They can’t even decide what hell is. Which one is it? Is it the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10) or the pit (Revelation 11:7) or is it a place where you will be given oozing pus to drink like the Koran describes (Koran 14:16), or a place where you will be roasted (Koran 17:18), or a prison (Koran 17:cool? Also, how did the pit get there? How did a big place of fire get beneath us? Did God create it down there? [b]Why is it that scientists haven’t discovered it yet being they have dug holes straight down to the center of the Earth? [/b]Why is it that you can’t find hell if it really is a place that exists? Scientists have listened to the ground, they have all kinds of advanced technical equipment with computers. Have they heard crackling fires? No!!! Why? Because hell is a state of mind. It is what you make it. It exists within you, for each one will pattern his or her hell according to what he believes hell is. They don’t hear anybody down there screaming and hollering or any torturing. So what makes you believe that there is some place “down there” that you will go if you are a sinner where there is fire and demons? The Bible? Let’s be for real! There is nothing in the Bible that has been proven to be facts yet. You can’t even prove that the characters in your Bible really exists, let alone a place called hell! The hell that your Preachers, Teachers, Pastors, Rabbis, Imaams, and Sheiks preach to you about is another trick to keep you trapped under religion.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by pilgrim1(f): 12:26pm On Oct 22, 2007
@donnie,

Okay, as promised here is my rejoinder to yours. I trust you've had time enough to gather your thoughts together and are satisfied thereto that is what you held as your persuasion on the subject. smiley

donnie:

I sincerely hope that the little explanations i can have time to give at this moment will be seen, neither as an attempt to boast in the knowledge of scripture nor an attempt to confuse scriptures.

Granted.

donnie:

NOT TRUE!

It is because you haven't properly defined sin that is the reason you find it hard to understand me. This is the reason He prayed the father to let this cup pass from Him. It wasnt the physical death or the beatings. It was the fact that He will become sin for us. He would be seperated from the father who does not behold iniquity. That is why on the cross, when the father turned His back on Jesus he cried out: My God My God. why has thou forsaken me?

Alright. I had requested you to please help us 'properly define sin' so that we could better understand you. Second, I had also requested you to please provide us with the texts that demonstrate that Christ took upon Himself the "nature of Satan". Both requests are still standing unattended as yet.

However, that Christ cried out on the cross as such did not suppose that He took upon Himself the 'nature of Satan'. It's imperative for us to clearly define our concepts (especially in regards to what is meant by the "nature" of Satan); and this would first necessitate the question as to when that occured, and what the consequences and implications are for us. I'll come back to share more on that.

For now, I observe that you'd used two very interesting words in your response: 'sin' and 'iniquity'. we could only ask what exactly it was that the Bible teaches that Christ took upon Himself on the Cross. Every text we turn to for answers teach one simple thing: that He took our sins upon Himself -

1 Pet. 2:24
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree,
that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness:
by whose stripes ye were healed." (see also Heb. 9:28).

This certainly is in reference to the prophecy by Isaiah, where he said that "the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all" (ch. 53:6). I don't see how any reasonable student of God's WORD would interprete that to mean the same thing as that the LORD laid the "nature of Satan" on Christ! Indeed that would be a wicked thought which is nowhere defended by Scripture.

This is why I'd waited for you to look at the simplicity of God's WORD and not read our untennable thoughts into the text. We shall have course to come back to the meaning of the 'nature of Satan'.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by pilgrim1(f): 12:27pm On Oct 22, 2007
@donnie,

donnie:

Sin is more than an act, it is the nature of Satan; just like righteousness is more than an act but the very nature of God. It is that sin nature that God seeks to deal with for at the new birth this nature is completely supplanted(not renewed or refurbished) with the divine nature. And this has nothing to do with what the man did or did not do.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil. . .


You are either a child of God or a child of satan; no middle ground.

O course, I saw your terse description of what you thought was the meaning of 'sin', and yet requested you to help us 'properly define sin'; because as it is, you have missed the whole point of the WOF teaching as to their use of the term "nature of Satan".

Sin is more than an act, to be sure; but does the Bible define it necessarily as the nature of Satan? Even the verse you had supposed for this (1 John 3:10) does not teach your presupposition; because in verse 4 of that passage, it says that "sin is lawlessness" [the KJV's rendition is sadly wrong; but we find a true rendering in such versions as the ASV, ESV, Darby, et al]. The point here is that the "nature" of Satan is far more than merely "sin"; and we shall see this as we go along.

However, to have a clear understanding of what the apostle John meant in 1 John 3:10, you need to study the distinctive style of his writings. He often employed a literary style that may appear to the surficial reader as if he was making paradoxical statements (especially when such readers ignore his contexts). For example, in his Gospel account he states that "no man hath seen God at any time" (John 1:18); which would seem paradoxical to such texts as Genesis 32:30 and Exodus 24:10. Again we read in his epistle that whosoever is born of God "doth not commit sin" and "cannot sin" (1 John 3:9); which might sound paradoxical to his earlier statement that "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" (ch. 1:10).

But we know that John was not making contradictory statements; and one would have to read his Gospel and epistles contextually in order to grasp the full import of his inspired statements. When he distinguished the "children of God" from the "children of the devil" (1 John 3:10), he was not speaking as if he was making people out to be bearing the "nature of Satan". He was speaking in a moral sense that does not stretch into an idea of people bearing the very essence of Satan himself.

The perculiarity of this construct can be found in other verses of the Bible (if we here remember the principle of comparing Scripture with Scripture). For example, we read of "child of the devil" (Acts 13:10); "children of the wicked one" (Matt. 13:38); "children of Belial" (Judg. 20:13 & 2 Chron. 13:7); "sons of Belial" (1 Kings 21:10); and "men of Belial" (1 Kings 21:13). These all are indicative of one thing: the moral attitudes of these men that earned them those appellations - in just the same way that others have been called "sons of thunder" (James and John - Mark 3:17) because of their hasty and fiery temperaments.

Some people have taken these things to mean that these people had the "nature of Satan" in them without looking at the contexts of those texts or even caring enough to define the term "nature of Satan"; so they quickly assume that "sin" is the nature of Satan, and then draw the colossal inference of ascribing that diabolic idea to the Son of God without a Biblical backing! That is why I asked you to go back to the Scriptures and show me where you find that Jesus had taken upon Himself the "nature of Satan" that you postulated - and for all that, you still skirted round the question and frantically assumed what the Bible does not teach.
Re: Nature Of Satan And Jesus Went To 'HELL'? by pilgrim1(f): 12:27pm On Oct 22, 2007
@donnie,

donnie:

In the same way Christ became sin for us; the one who believes is made(not just righteous but) the righteousness of God in Him.

Aye. But that does not swing the pendullum to an extreme to allege that Christ took upon Himself the nature of Satan.

donnie:

It reminds me of the brazen serpent which Moses made to save the Isrealites from death. That serpent (which is a symbol of sin) was spoken of agian in the new testament. For in the same way that serpent was lifted up on that rod, so the son of man is lifted today for the world to see and believe.

John 3:14
"As [Num 21:9] Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must [Matt 8:20] the Son of Man [John 8:28; 12:34] be lifted up;

I'm sorry to disappoint you, donnie. The brazen serpent does not represent "sin" - and men cannot look to "sin" in order to be saved and delivered! The brazen serpent represented JUDGEMENT - they saw the divine satisfaction of God's judgement of their sin (speaking against the LORD and against Moses - Num. 21:7).

It wasn't the "nature of Satan" that hung on the pole, nor the same representation that hung on the Cross. The theme of redemption all through the Bible is exactly the same - God sees the satisfaction of His judgement upon man's sin before man receives salvation and deliverance. Let me share other examples to demonstrate this:

Exodus 12:13
"And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses
where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you,
and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you,
when I smite the land of Egypt"

Genesis 9:16
"And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it,
that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God
and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth."

These are just two examples, but they are powerful revelations of what God does in redemptive history. Notice that the people indeed would see the blood when they stood outside the house; and men would see the bow in the cloud - but these exercises would NOT save or deliver. Until God Himself sees the blood and the bow and is therefore satisfied that His righteous judgement upon sin has been met, nothing is going to avail any man. Why? Simply because God is looking at what man cannot see! "For the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance" (1 Samuel 16:7).

What man sees is the outward appearance - 'a serpent of brass' - and that is why many people draw the wrong conclusions. But what God sees is His divine judgement satisfied - and that is all the difference that brings salvation and deliverance to man! This is why the prophet Isaiah recorded: "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isaiah 53:11). What man sees is a crucified Christ - and that is not enough to bring about our redemption. But what God sees is that His righteous judgement has been met - and that is what brings about salvation!

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