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Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples - Politics - Nairaland

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Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by amor4ce(m): 5:10am On Feb 15, 2012
This is especially for PhysicsQED.

The Nigerian Philologist, Modupe Oduyoye, has done a lot of research into the Afro-Asiatic roots of West African (including Nigerian) languages and his findings indicate that some West African peoples south of the Sahara once lived in the Levant. If anyone with the means is seriously interested he or she can purchase/check out these [url=http://www.google.com.ng/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=inauthor:%22Modupe+Oduyoye%22&source=gbs_metadata_r&cad=3#q=inauthor:%22Modupe+Oduyoye%22&hl=en&tbm=bks&ei=Jik7T_7QLMf88QOh4oXpCg&start=0&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=92ec32750ce6621f&biw=1280&bih=707]books authored by Oduyoye[/url]:

[list]
[li]Modupe Oduyoye: The Sons of the Gods and the Daughters of Men: An Afro-Asiatic Interpretation of Genesis 1-11, NY, Orbis Books[/li]
[li]Le-mah sabach-tha-niy?: lament and entreaty in the Psalms[/li]
[li]Words & meanings in Yoruba religion: linguistic connecions in Yoruba, Ancient Egyptian & Semitic[/li]
[li]The Alphabetical Psalms: Systematic Instruction for a Life of Faith and Trust[/li]
[/list]

Below are excerpts from someone's review of Pa Oduyoye's research

, Africans, similarly, consider dazzling metals, especially bronze, gold and copper as "spirits." Thus, Modupe Oduyoye, in his Afro-Asiatic Interpretation of Genesis 1-11, notes that in the language of the West African Acholi, the word "jok" is cognate with the word "jigi" of the West African Yoruba (or "digi" by phonetic dialect substitution of "j" with "d"wink and cognate with an Afro-Asiatic root for  glass, reflective glare, brightness, radiance. In the West African Ijaw language: "digi" meaning "look," and compares with Ancient Egyptian "dgi" meaning also "look."(Remember that polished metal surfaces, especially bronze, were used as reflective mirror surfaces by the Ancients–see 1 Corinthians 13:12).

, We may glean evidence in support of the view that the dazzling serpent entwined Asklepian pole was the symbol of the Kenitic Yahweh, and a totemic symbol of the Kenitic clan of Yahweh worshipers, from the worldwide dissemination of the root Y-W- a form of the Afro-Asiatic root verb h-w-h ('to be"wink.

We shall begin our tour in West Africa. Oduyoye,  notes the incidence of the root Y-W- in the religious cults of the following West African peoples: Among the Fon (the voodoo or vodu cult of Benin Republic or Dahomey) we have the word "Yehwe," meaning: "spirit," "divine spirit." Among the Ewe of Togo, we have "Yeve," meaning also "divine spirit." Among the Gun (also of West Africa) we have "Yihwe" or "Yehwe" meaning "a "god" or "spirit or divine being. Among the Yoruba of the "slave coast" we have the antique virgin goddess Yewa ("our mother," "our lady" cognate with the root h-w-h, of the verb "to be"wink.

In Greco-Latin culture we have Hebe (or Juventa) goddess of youth (youth, in connection with fire as symbol of immortality, life, rejuvenation). The name "Hebe" is of the same root derivation as the Genesis name "Eve" meaning "life," "being," from the verb, "to be." Note that "Hebe," as name of the Greek goddess, is a form of the Roman "J-uve-nta." The "-venta" suffix is of the same root derivation as the Latin root of the English word "wind,"(Latin: "ventus"wink. Note the connection of "wind" or "air" in ancient or traditional thought with "spirit," or divine "breath." (The Hebrew word "ruach," for instance, may mean "air," "breath," as well as "spirit"; similary Greek "pneuma" means "spirit" as well as "breath"–the Ancients made no hard or fast distinction between physical "air" and "spirit" for both shared the same essential property of mysterious invisibility–compare John 3:8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."wink

Note also that the word "wind" is of the same root derivation as the root of the word "wand"(magic "wand"wink and "wend" (to twist or turn or be supple as a serpent on an Asklepian pole, or as in the spiral or helical caduceus as mystical symbol of life).

In the translation of the root of "-venta" to the English language, "v-n-t" is phonetically transformed into "w-n-d" (just as Semitic phonetic sound YHWH  becomes  JHVH in English translations of the Hebrew scriptures).

In Ancient Roman mythology the root of the tetragrammaton YHWH appears as Jove or Jupiter. Jove was the "High God" of the Roman pantheon, the sky god of lightning,thunder and atmospheric disturbances, as the Mosaic YHWH or Jove (JHVH).

The root of YHWH  (h-w-h, "to be"wink also appears in the Celtic "Gwen-dolyn" (the name comes in various forms including "Gwenda"–compare Roman Juventa) by phonetic substitution of "Y" with "G." The prefix  "Gwen-" retains the original association in meaning with radiance or brightness of divine beings, for in Celtic "Gwen" means "fair," "bright," "pure" or "white," that is, holy.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by PhysicsQED(m): 6:36am On Feb 15, 2012
Amor4ce,


Afroasiatic is one of the five language families of Africa.

Of Africa.

The fact that there are some similarities or connections between the words in some languages that are in different language families is nothing extraordinary or something which counters the existing classification scheme.

If you want an answer from a professional and objective linguist specializing in Afroasiatic languages and African languages in general  on the question of why Yoruba and related Nigerian languages are not Afroasiatic, but a language like Hausa is Afroasiatic, you should probably try to get in contact with Christopher Ehret and/or Roger Blench. Try contacting them by email or something. Linguistics isn't my thing.

But if you want to continue in this current path of trying to connect southern Nigeria to the Near East based on thin evidence, maybe you'd want to contact not only Odudoye, but also Dierk Lange.

Personally, I don't care if any Nigerian groups once lived in the Levant or Egypt. It doesn't even matter. Even if this "Hamitic hypothesis" inspired thinking turns out to be true, it doesn't change history or affect anything in the present. Why some people are so desperate to be part of the "Afroasiatic" group is beyond me.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by DuduNegro: 8:29am On Feb 15, 2012
Physics, my brother. . . This is Negro_Ntns. 

Somewhere within the subconscious there is a spot, it's inahibited by a fire spirit (what is commonly called emotion). Before a soul dies, it's spirit must first find itself. This search for self is a lifelong journey and hardly anyone ever get the desired result. Nonetheless we are restless in our spirit and in the search to find self.  What is this self? It is the prototype divine man. . the first human! 

The inquiries of history and roots and antiquity is all part of the endeavor to trace back the markers in one's past and connect and reconcile self to that noble beginning.  So excuse those of us who see value in this search and our excitement when the spirit finds resonance in the self evident truths which our searches uncover. 

I want to add two things.  First, in regard to your words below.

The fact that there are some similarities or connections between the words in some languages that are in different language families is nothing extraordinary or something which counters the existing classification scheme.

The language classification scheme were established by foreign cultures that had no understanding of the language and nature of the natives they were classifying.  They were banded based on regional location, as opposed to the root of the tongue itself.  The people looked alike, have similar diet, worship similar gods. . . they must be same family!

Let me remind you that when the Yoruba standard alphabet was being developed, English did not have equivalents for all the tones in our tongue.  So how did they get around that difficulty?  They searched the vowel sounds and consonants of other European languages - Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, French, German -  to see if equivalents could be found to fill in the gap and complete the alphabet series.  So considering such a handicap and limitation whereby a spectrum of multiple European languages have to donate their sounds to help Britain formulate a near equivalence in sound and letter of the Yoruba alphabet, does it not then make it necessary to review Yoruba language and develop a new standard and classification for it?

The European linguists are using alphabet sounds (comprising of English, Italian, German, Spanish, French) as basis to exclude Yoruba as an Afroasia language.  The Yoruba speakers are using their tonal understanding of the tongue itself and its root verbs to say we are from somewhere else, and that knowledge corroborates harmoniously with other uncovered truths in many aspects of our culture to place us firmly in AfroAsia.  It is upto you who you believe!  We do not speak our language from alphabet. . . we speak it from spirit. 

Second, I saw your discussion with rossikk on a related topic on Egyptian history.  I want to say that of everything that Egypt is best known for, there is only one that stands unique and that is mystic arts and esoterism.  Cults, rituals, fraternal orders, symbology. . . . all these will fall under that mystery signature.  What we call religion today evolved out of mystic arts.  This is why every one of the Abrahamic faiths, beginning with the father himself were first immersed into Egypt and the teachings of the sacredness of divine nature was soaked into them.  They acquired sacred secrets about the celestial, the sublunary and the terrestrial.  To find which West African culture or people came out of Egypt. . . . begin by studying the sacred manuscripts and knowledge in posession of the cultures under study or their ritual practice and customs.  Study their symbology and their blood sacrifices.  Comparing skin color, food diet, nose measurement, names and hair texture. . . these are all vanities and will not get you beyond the documented errors established by Europe to preserve the grandeur of its myth gods. 

If the truth were established, we will discover that Grecko and Roman philosophers, like the prophets, all sojourned in Egypt and studied mystic arts and wisdom under the tutelage of Black skinned priests and scholars.  Europe is not ready for that revelation and will never be!  Its falsehood will need to be countered with truths from famed scholars like yourself.  It is a loss when our scholars are doggedly preaching the same error we should systematically erase.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by PhysicsQED(m): 9:11am On Feb 15, 2012
Negro Ntns, my point to amor4ce, is that since the language family that Yoruba belongs to is African, and the Afroasiatic language family is also African, it's not surprising that some languages between these two language families share some words, since they diverged from a common root. I'm not going to get into the issue of religion, mysticism, and sacred practices because I don't claim to know enough to discuss that thoroughly.

Also, the issue is not tones. Tones are not something rare among African languages and tonal Afroasiatic languages were still classified as Afroasiatic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_%28linguistics%29#Tonal_languages


If the Yoruba language was really Afroasiatic (like Hausa is), then

a) one would be claiming that the Europeans were somehow particularly inclined to label Hausa as Afroasiatic, but somehow disinclined to label Yoruba as such. Why did the European bias of scholars not prevent them from figuring out that Hausa was Afroasiatic, but somehow prevented them from figuring out that languages like Fula, Nupe, Yoruba etc. are Afroasiatic? The most likely explanation is that Fula, Nupe, Yoruba, etc. are not actually Afroasiatic. and there was nothing to justify grouping them with Afroasiatic languages.


b) why have no professional linguists (including professional Yoruba linguists) that publish in peer reviewed academic journals, classified it as Afroasiatic? Why is it only Oduyoye that does so?

There are over a thousand publications relating in some way to the Yoruba language: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=CzUV4oKBiSIC&oi=fnd&pg=PA7&ots=rGuJA7kQRY&sig=6JWwmMtIlxxxKLNL0BConPesKII#v=onepage&q&f=false

But the only claim of a connection between Yoruba and Afroasiatic is 'Yoruba and Semitic Languages: Linguistic Relationship', Nigeria Magazine, 1968 by Oduyoye (an article I haven't read), the book by Oduyoye cited above by amor4ce, and another claim of a connection to the Egyptians from Olumide Lucas.

Even the book I linked to above by Lawrence Olufemi Adewole starts by acknowledging that Yoruba "belongs to the Kwa family within the Niger-Congo phylum of African languages" (http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=CzUV4oKBiSIC&oi=fnd&pg=PA11#v=onepage&q&f=false).

There's no particular reason why one would take the word of Oduyoye and Lucas over that of Adewole and most other scholars.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by PhysicsQED(m): 9:49am On Feb 15, 2012
Negro Ntns, in that discussion with Rossik, he repeatedly referred to the 100 handpicked words posted in that online article, but if there were a real link, he would be able to provide far more than 100 words and he would also be able to demonstrate common linguistic characteristics.

Look through the following links from a to z and tell me honestly if the vocabulary of ancient Egyptian really matches Yoruba:

http://books.google.com/books?id=WUppj1LHdJ4C&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://hieroglyphs.net/0301/cgi/lookup.pl?ty=en&ch=a&cs=0

http://karathutmose.tripod.com/dictionary/dictionary1.html

www.jimloy.com/hiero/e-dict.htm

http://www.ancientsites.com/aw/Post/399761



In fact, if you're serious about this connection, get the largest and most comprehensive Yoruba dictionaries you can, get the largest and most comprehensive dictionaries available for each of the Afroasiatic languages, and then scan through each of them methodically and see how many cognates and semi-cognates you can find. Then publish an analysis of these connections for posterity.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by DuduNegro: 5:31pm On Feb 15, 2012
Negro Ntns, my point to amor4ce, is that since the language family that Yoruba belongs to is African, and the Afroasiatic language family is also African, it's not surprising that some languages between these two language families share some words, since they diverged from a common root. I'm not going to get into the issue of religion, mysticism, and sacred practices because I don't claim to know enough to discuss that thoroughly.

Also, the issue is not tones. Tones are not something rare among African languages and tonal Afroasiatic languages were still classified as Afroasiatic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_%28linguistics%29#Tonal_languages


If the Yoruba language was really Afroasiatic (like Hausa is), then

a) one would be claiming that the Europeans were somehow particularly inclined to label Hausa as Afroasiatic, but somehow disinclined to label Yoruba as such. Why did the European bias of scholars not prevent them from figuring out that Hausa was Afroasiatic, but somehow prevented them from figuring out that languages like Fula, Nupe, Yoruba etc. are Afroasiatic? The most likely explanation is that Fula, Nupe, Yoruba, etc. are not actually Afroasiatic. and there was nothing to justify grouping them with Afroasiatic languages.


b) why have no professional linguists (including professional Yoruba linguists) that publish in peer reviewed academic journals, classified it as Afroasiatic? Why is it only Oduyoye that does so?

There are over a thousand publications relating in some way to the Yoruba language: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=CzUV4oKBiSIC&oi=fnd&pg=PA7&ots=rGuJA7kQRY&sig=6JWwmMtIlxxxKLNL0BConPesKII#v=onepage&q&f=false

But the only claim of a connection between Yoruba and Afroasiatic is 'Yoruba and Semitic Languages: Linguistic Relationship', Nigeria Magazine, 1968 by Oduyoye (an article I haven't read), the book by Oduyoye cited above by amor4ce, and another claim of a connection to the Egyptians from Olumide Lucas.

Even the book I linked to above by Lawrence Olufemi Adewole starts by acknowledging that Yoruba "belongs to the Kwa family within the Niger-Congo phylum of African languages" (http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=CzUV4oKBiSIC&oi=fnd&pg=PA11#v=onepage&q&f=false).

There's no particular reason why one would take the word of Oduyoye and Lucas over that of Adewole and most other scholars.

The Hausas retained the name of their culture but linguistically lost their original tongue to the indsluence of Islam and conquest by Fulani. Today, there are very few indigenous Hausa names. . . most are Arabic. It should not surprise at all that Hausa is classified as Afroasiatic given that it had been under the influence of Islam centuries before contact with those scholars that studied and made this classification schemes. This is not to say that their origin is not also in Afroasia. . . but I'm outlining the ease with which to reach such a conclusion for Hausa and not for Yoruba.

Yoruba itself suffered from similar influences. The monarchy that established the Yoruba States and sovereignties were not themselves indigenous to the land. These conquering tribes were the emigrants from AfroAsia. Yoruba oral tradition says Oduduwa came from East. You mocked this "East" reference in one of your responses when you said it could be any East. I disagree! It could be only one East. . . and that's the one global reference that humanity know as East. If you say to anybody Western Education, this is human reference to denote philosophical teachings and knowledge that came out of the Grecko Roman civilizations. It will not be a reference to Yoruba (another West) teachings or a teaching and scholareship out of West Africa. So there's no need diluting this reference of East with conjectures of East as in Igbo or Bini or Kenya or such frivolous misguides to discredit authentic accounts of history.

Yoruba oral accounts says Ife was settled by Oduduwa coming from East. Oduduwa settled Ife and from where Old Oyo and new Oyo were created and out of which grew and spread out the Egbas, the Aworis, the Ijesas and many other Yoruba sub groups. Yoruba itself is the cultural name of the settling migrants, just as Fulani is the cultural name of the settling conquerors. The language of the elite class and the courts were Arabic due to Islamic Jihadi conquest which established the Fulani monarchy. Thus original Hausa language got mixed up. In the case of Yoruba. . . the laanguage of the courts and the elites was Yoruba, consistent with the settlers. . . . but it influenced and mixed with Nago and Aku, the native tongues of the indigenes . This native tongue belonged in the Congo slassification scheme. The Yoruba tongue was not strong enough to distinctly stand out but its influence was nonetheless noticeable. This minute influence and remnants is what is discernible as similarities with Egyotian and Afroasiatic tongues.

Yorubas are definitely an Afroasiatic culture, tongue and people. The Nagos and Akus that were native to the land are assimilated into the Yorubas and the mix is what it is today. The Yoruba monarchs have their roots in Afroasia and as well many of the subjects they rule over. . . mixed with original indigenes of the land. This is not a subordination of Yoruba to any culture in Middle East. . . Yoruba itself was a powerful contender in the proto semitic family of Afroasia. . . . and not descended from Jew or Arabs or any of those craps. I know you keep going to the fact that Yoruba authors support your position. . . . .but these were authors whose work was not formulated on the oral accounts but took reference from errors already accepeted by Europeans and marketed as mainstream history. .
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by amor4ce(m): 11:41pm On Feb 15, 2012
PhysicsQED, you can go through the links below for your personal research:

[list]
[li]Oduduwan Revolution in World History From: Yoruba Ancient History Society[/li]
[li]AfricanOriginsoftheWordGod[/li]
[li]NANASOM: Afurakani/Afuraitkaitnit (African) Ancestral Religion[/li]
[li]Yoruba World Exploration And The Loss Of Dynasties[/li]

I want to believe that a lot of answers to the questions we ask are in the Edidi text – if only I had access (Daniel 2:18-19,27-28). I already got some important answers from the meaning of the name Daodu.

Dudu Negro, what if the Yoruba people(s) did not arrive in West Africa all at once but in waves of migrations, say 2 or 3? Such would account for versions of Yoruba history that mention Oduduwa and his entourage meeting a group of people (eg Nago and Aku as you say) in Ife upon arrival. The Ijebu monarchy does acknowledge migration from Wadai (Wadi?) in the Sudan/Ethiopia region, also the arrival of Obanta therefrom.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by DuduNegro: 12:16am On Feb 16, 2012
Trans migration is always in wave, and yes, the settling Yorubas had waves of settlers. You know I will repeat it again.

1. Afroasia in that age was a contingent part of Africa proper.
2. The people of this region suffered many tragedies. . . .war, ecological, religious persecution. . . and so they did not get up and leave at same time but each tragedy took its turn on them.
3. There were migrants from lower Babylon, Canaan, Egypt, Yemen, Nubia and so on.
4. They dispersed and did not all come in one direction.
5. The ones that came down the Nile and Westward into Sudan ended up in West Africa. Yoruba was one of them. Yoruba came with its civilization and social structure intact.
6. Some of them settled into communities along their transit.
7. Yorubas did not settle in South West of Nigeria. . . no, they settled in the Savannah and Northern belt of Nigeria. Their spread Southward is why they are in SW today. Yorubaland now covers from the forest in the South to the Savannah in North. . . . having lost the Northern lands to war.
8. They buried their sacredness and mystic powers in Ile Ife as the spiritual abode of the Nation.
9. Old Oyo (Katunga)was a frontier far up North at where Kebbi borders Niger State today. This Yoruba city borders with Gobir, a Hausa State.
10. Katunga was bordered on West by Bariba people, North by Hausa people, East by Nupe people and South Yoruba.
11. Oyo-Ile was the capital and seat of power.
12. Wars with Nupe and later Fulani lost Katunga and Ilorin.
13. Yoruba expanded rapidly and conquered into Dahomey and westward into Volta region, and as well into frontiers of Mali.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by amor4ce(m): 12:36am On Feb 16, 2012
You forgot to add that some Yoruba did spread westward from Ife and perhaps Old Oyo to Benin, Togo and Ghana. Many are known today as Ewe.

The Hebrew for the Book of Genesis is בְּרֵאשִׁית‎, Bereʾšyt (or Beresheeth), "In [the] beginning". You would have immediately noticed that the Yoruba word for beginning/start is Bere which is also the female version of the name Daodu. I will soon write about the meaning of the name Daodu.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by logic101: 12:52am On Feb 16, 2012
Great thread.I would love to learn more
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by Rossikk(m): 1:11am On Feb 16, 2012
amor4ce, thanks for your post. Please ignore the likes of PhysicsQED who say that exploring African history is 'unimportant'. It is because of such attitudes that many of our ancient relics lie in ruins, devoid of maintenance or attention. Go to other parts of the world and they're busy discovering even more artefacts and ruins, and stories, to add to their already huge repertoire.  A people without a history are a dead people.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by PhysicsQED(m): 2:01am On Feb 16, 2012
Dudu_Negro :
The Hausas retained the name of their culture but linguistically lost their original tongue to the indsluence of Islam and conquest by Fulani.   Today, there are very few indigenous Hausa names. . . most are Arabic.  It should not surprise at all that Hausa is classified as Afroasiatic given that it had been under the influence of Islam centuries before contact with those scholars that studied and made this classification schemes. This is not to say that their origin is not also in Afroasia. . . but I'm outlining the ease with which to reach such a conclusion for Hausa and not for Yoruba. 


This makes little sense as an argument. There are other groups of West Africans that had centuries of Islamic influence but their langauges are still not considered Afroasiatic langauges. Mande languages and the Fula language are not Afroasiatic, for example.

In fact, for you to claim this, you're basically saying that a distinct Hausa language doesn't really exist and it is overwhelmingly Arabic influenced and distorted with Arabic borrowings, which has not been demonstrated by anybody to be true.


Yoruba itself suffered from similar influences.  The monarchy that established the Yoruba States and sovereignties were not themselves indigenous to the land.  These conquering tribes were the emigrants from AfroAsia.

Yes, we've all heard and read this before from many other people. It's a form of the Hamitic hypothesis. Nothing original or groundbreaking. But as I said earlier, the actual Yoruba ethnic group does not, from other available evidence, originate from the  Near East or the Levant even if it can be proven that their leaders and rulers derive from Egyptians, Canaanites, etc. The Yoruba langauge is a world away from Afroasiatic languages and a mere 100 words - some of which have to stretch very hard to form an apparent correspondence - do not actually suggest a strong connection.

Yoruba oral tradition says Oduduwa came from East.  You mocked this "East" reference in one of your responses when you said it could be any East.


That was not what I was saying. Every group now in Southern Nigeria was originally somewhere else in East Africa. I was saying that East Africa does not in any way necessarily mean the Nile Valley. It could be somewhere else in East Africa nearby, but well outside of the domain of the states that would become Kush and Egypt.

I disagree!  It could be only one East. . . and that's the one global reference that humanity know as East.   If you say to anybody Western Education, this is human reference to denote philosophical teachings and knowledge that came out of the Grecko Roman civilizations.   It will not be a reference to Yoruba (another West) teachings or a teaching and scholareship out of West Africa.

What was originally being discussed in that thread was that humanity originates in East Africa. Originating in East Africa and migrating West is different from the claim that rulers come from the Nile Valley or Levant.


So there's no need diluting this reference of East with conjectures of East as in Igbo

I never said Yorubas came from Igbo or that their leader did. I have said and will continue to say that these groups share a common origin  and are basically different sides of the same coin. It's obvious and the correspondences in words are more numerous and stronger than you will find between Yoruba and any Afroasiatic language

or  Bini

Once again, the Bini claim is that at one point a Bini prince became ruler of Ife, which is hardly a stretch of the imagination considering that the same pattern of a Bini prince or noble becoming ruler of a place among a different non-Bini group was repeated to the north, east, west, and south of Benin in multiple kingdoms centuries later. The fact that all written documents support that the Binis always claimed that the ruler they originally knew had an Edo title (the original form of which could not have been pronounced by the Yorubas in Ife, as they don't retain "gh" in that part of Yorubaland) only buttresses that argument.


or Kenya or such frivolous misguides to discredit authentic accounts of history.

When did I claim that Yorubas came from Kenya? I never claimed anybody in southern Nigeria came from Kenya.


Yoruba oral accounts says Ife was settled by Oduduwa coming from East.  Oduduwa settled Ife and from where Old Oyo and new Oyo were created and out of which grew and spread out the Egbas, the Aworis, the Ijesas and many other Yoruba sub groups.  Yoruba itself is the cultural name of the settling migrants, just as Fulani is the cultural name of the settling conquerors.

What you have to take into account when evaluating the Oyo traditions is that the Kisra legends of the Borgu kingdoms and some other northern kingdoms were prevalent in the same geographical area that Old Oyo was in. Given the later Borgu-Oyo alliance, it's hardly unreasonable to suppose that Borgu traditions influenced the Oyo account of the origin of the founder. The notion that Oduduwa came from the East doesn't necessarily mean the Middle East.


The language of the elite class and the courts were Arabic due to Islamic Jihadi conquest which established the Fulani monarchy.  Thus original Hausa language got mixed up.  In the case of Yoruba. . . the laanguage of the courts and the elites was Yoruba, consistent with the settlers. . . . but it influenced and mixed with Nago and Aku, the native tongues of the indigenes .  This native tongue belonged in the Congo slassification scheme.  The Yoruba tongue was not strong enough to distinctly stand out but its influence was nonetheless noticeable.  This minute influence and remnants is what is discernible as similarities with Egyotian and Afroasiatic tongues.


The Igbo and Edo can also put forward similarities between a few words in their languages and certain Afroasiatic languages. That doesn't mean anything significant, because as I said earlier the language family to which these groups belong and the Afroasiatic language family are African language families.



Yorubas are definitely an Afroasiatic culture, tongue and people.   The Nagos and Akus that were native to the land are assimilated into the Yorubas and the mix is what it is today.  The Yoruba monarchs have their roots in Afroasia and as well many of the subjects they rule over. . . mixed with original indigenes of the land.   This is not a subordination of Yoruba to any culture in Middle East. . .  Yoruba itself was a powerful contender in the proto semitic family of Afroasia. . . . and not descended from Jew or Arabs or any of those craps.  I know you keep going to the fact that Yoruba authors support your position. . . . .but these were authors whose work was not formulated on the oral accounts but took reference from errors already accepeted by Europeans and marketed as mainstream history.  .

I don't think we're going to agree You see the culture of the Yoruba states as "Proto-Semitic" and in line with the cultures of Middle East.  I'm not going to argue with you about how to perceive your own culture beyond what I already have so far, so we might just have to keep on agreeing to disagree.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by PhysicsQED(m): 2:05am On Feb 16, 2012
amor4ce: PhysicsQED, you can go through the links below for your personal research:

    Oduduwan Revolution in World History  From: Yoruba Ancient History Society
    AfricanOriginsoftheWordGod
    NANASOM: Afurakani/Afuraitkaitnit (African) Ancestral Religion
    Yoruba World Exploration And The Loss Of Dynasties
    I want to believe that a lot of answers to the questions we ask are in the Edidi text – if only I had access (Daniel 2:18-19,27-28). I already got some important answers from the meaning of the name Daodu.

    Dudu Negro, what if the Yoruba people(s) did not arrive in West Africa all at once but in waves of migrations, say 2 or 3? Such would account for versions of Yoruba history that mention Oduduwa and his entourage meeting a group of people (eg Nago and Aku as you say) in Ife upon arrival.

I have already read those articles and I'm neither impressed nor convinced, and I've seen several stretches and outright errors in them. Farouk Martins' article in particular is riddled with enough error that it would take a counter article to correct some of his mistakes. Anyway, I'm not interested in countering some obscure internet articles.


The Ijebu monarchy does acknowledge migration from Wadai (Wadi?) in the Sudan/Ethiopia region, also the arrival of Obanta therefrom.

Imao. . . still searching for the origins of Ijebu in the Sudan or Israel?
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by PhysicsQED(m): 2:16am On Feb 16, 2012
Rossikk:

amor4ce, thanks for your post. Please ignore the likes of PhysicsQED who say that exploring African history is 'unimportant'.



Don't misinterpret my motivation for my responses.

"History is a people's memory, and without a memory, man is demoted to the lower animals." - a great man


I just disagree about the validity of some of the Hamitic hypotheses floating around.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by amor4ce(m): 2:24am On Feb 16, 2012
Why do you laugh at the ancestry of the Ijebu people and my fathers (including Obanta) who were Ijebu kings? The Ijebu royalty does not dispute it (http://www.noidusa.org/ijebuoriginandhistory.html). You can check for Obanta on wikipedia. If oral accounts have been consistent for centuries in this regard what gives you the boldness to dismiss them. The Igala have also said they migrated from the east.

Your comments remind me of the likes of Naiwu Osahon who in my opinion put in lengthy efforts at inventing history eg Edo history: Who was Idu? Where did he live? What does Idu mean?

I have since decided to take your responses (aka big/plenty grammar; my take) as a challlenge.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by ezeagu(m): 2:38am On Feb 16, 2012
Ancient Egyptian looks like Efik, apart from that, nothing.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by PhysicsQED(m): 2:42am On Feb 16, 2012
lol, if you want to find about Ijebu, there are other ways to find out stuff, you know. You don't have to keep posting this "Jebusite" stuff or posting very weak speculative articles like you do in those threads in the culture section. Why not become an archaeologist? Follow in the footsteps of Patrick Darling, Thurstan Shaw, Ekpo Eyo, etc. Who knows, maybe you'll find more than they did, or find archaeological support for your theories.

And I couldn't care less what Naiwu Osahon wrote, but he (like you) is also an advocate of all this Egypt/Nubia/Levant ---> Southern Nigeria stuff, so he actually has more in common with you than he does with me.

And Idu is a "semi-mythical" ancestor of some importance. What his name means is not directly relevant to this discussion and different people can give competing interpretations.

Idu and the Edo have nothing to do with the Edomites or Idumea. If you keep spewing this Idumea/Edom --> Edo stuff and this Jebusite ---> Ijebu stuff with reckless abandon, you shouldn't be surprised when I laffff. And if you feel your people are from eastern Chad, fine, but please don't drag my people into the great Hamitic and Semitic migration scheme, or I'll be forced to respond with further laffs . . .
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by amor4ce(m): 3:03am On Feb 16, 2012
I haven't mentioned on this thread that the Ijebu are the Jebusites, neither have I claimed that Nigerian peoples migrated from Egypt/Nubia/Levant. Rather, I have asked questions having made some observations. If I see hints I should I just keep quiet. Perhaps you want to laff at the current Awujale as well. Have you ever considered whether or not your posts on this forum are indicative of self-denial and delusions of grandeur? People communicate and debate in attempts at groping for the truth, and the weakness or strength of the arguments are in the ears/eyes of the hearer/beholder. God knows perfectly the truth that we seek.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by ezeagu(m): 3:14am On Feb 16, 2012
Ijebu=Jebusites. shocked Sounds like an Ijebu messaging board. grin
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by PhysicsQED(m): 3:18am On Feb 16, 2012
Trying desperately to link one's group with a group in the bible, even when there should be no possible motivation to aspire for one's group to be the same as that group (what did the Jebusites actually accomplish anyway? Ijebu>>>> Jebusites) is the height of delusion and inferiority complex. Sorry if that sounds offensive, but that's what it looks like to me.

But if my laughing at the Chadian origin of Ijebu offended you, I apologize for that specific laugh. Everyone is welcome to their own origin stories since nothing is certain. Even some Edo would argue seriously that the Edo are from Egypt. I even got into an argument with another Bini guy once who tried to claim that Nosakhare was an indisputably Egyptian name. So my own people are sometimes adherents of the same kind of claims.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by Beaf: 3:48am On Feb 16, 2012
I once spoke to some Urhobo holders of history attached to the palace of an Ovie (king). What they narrated was astonishing; those old men that many of us would call illiterates and other derogatory words were able to trace a route from Egypt, through Sudan, Ife and Benin. What was most transfixing, was the mention of tracable places in Sudan.

I will take the words of those men above the words of any book.

One last thing though, the mention of Egypt and Sudan does not mean we all came from there. It might have been a single leader or small clutch of people who were able to territories in Nigeria over which they weilded authority.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by Beaf: 3:53am On Feb 16, 2012
@PhysicsQED

I recall telling you at one time to get in touch with Dr. Omokaro Izevbigie. I really think you should, the man is an encyclopedia of Edo hystory; he is also from the royal family (Eweka), so you can be certain that what he tells you is the version from the palace court.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by DuduNegro: 4:01am On Feb 16, 2012
Physics, we are relating and repeating and passing on to people who want to know where Yoruba roots are.  We are not here to convince you or convert you into that belief.  If you thought this was an attempt to make you a believer you are wrong.  

You believe what you believe in for Bini and Edo, we believe what have assurances in for Ife, Oyo and other nations of people within our commonwealth.  

The history of Bini kingdom itself is overrated and its much myth in it than facts.  Bini was on the coast and received earlier contact and impression of the Europeans than greater kingdoms to the interior.  Bini has not covered success on the ground on the scale that Oyo successfully did.  You have interest to disrepute Yoruba kingdom because it's the only way your Bini birthed Ife story can stick.  Yoruba had seven states , founded by Oduduwa - Bini (Edo), Owu (Egba), Ketu (Dahomey), Orangun (Kwara, Kogi and Osun), Sabe (Dahomey), Popo (Dahomey) and Oyo.

There are articles online by Naiwu Osahon and Nosa Idubor. . . who knows, you are probably one of these people.  They are busy online telling readers that the controversy on Oduduwa is resolved and that their lies should be accepted as the final resolution of that controversy.  Very funny!

Anyone desiring to resolve the controversy should go ask the other six children where their fathers came from.  Their independent voice will settle the matter once and for ever!
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by PhysicsQED(m): 4:25am On Feb 16, 2012
^^^^

If you actually think I'm Naiwu Osahon or Nosa Idubor, you must be drunk right now. My regard for Benin's contribution to African history has virtually nothing to do with any "Oduduwa controversy" and I have no interest in spamming the net with the kinds of articles Osahon posts, since I don't consider the issue relevant to me personally.

As for the rest of that spiel, I never claimed "Bini birthed Ife" and the talk of "greater kingdoms to the interior" is funny to me considering what I've read about the interactions between Benin and some of those kingdoms to the interior.  grin

As for the coast, Bini have no land on the coast. What was stopping these "greater kingdoms" from conquering all the way down to the coast? A certain fly?
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by PhysicsQED(m): 4:28am On Feb 16, 2012
Beaf:

@PhysicsQED

I recall telling you at one time to get in touch with Dr. Omokaro Izevbigie. I really think you should, the man is an encyclopedia of Edo hystory; he is also from the royal family (Eweka), so you can be certain that what he tells you is the version from the palace court.

Yeah. I've thought about that and I'll probably try and contact him at some point in the next few years in between my studies. Thanks for the recommendation.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by DuduNegro: 4:40am On Feb 16, 2012
If you actually think I'm Naiwu Osahon or Nosa Idubor, you must be drunk right now.

grin. . . .creek people like Beaf get drunk like fish, Yorubas dont get drunk like that, we just love owanbe like nobody's business. cheesy
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by Beaf: 4:50am On Feb 16, 2012
Dudu_Negro:

grin. . . .creek people like Beaf get drunk like fish, Yorubas dont get drunk like that, we just love owanbe like nobody's business. cheesy

Why do you always make racist comments? Do you have a tiny Joystick or something?
Racists always have underlying personality issues that make them feel inadequate to the extent that they try to identify with feral pack or stir up packs they can identify with. See a shrink, you'll thank me profusely.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by DuduNegro: 5:16am On Feb 16, 2012
Im talking to Physics. . . . did I talk to you? Chei, see me see wahala o! Wetin u dey do here sef, you are supposed to be spinning political chatters for bossman. rascal! grin Tell your boss to call Seun and order him to unrestrict Negro_Ntns immediately. you raaascal! angry
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by ezeagu(m): 8:59pm On Feb 17, 2012
Beaf:

Why do you always make racist comments? Do you have a tiny Joystick or something?
Racists always have underlying personality issues that make them feel inadequate to the extent that they try to identify with feral pack or stir up packs they can identify with. See a shrink, you'll thank me profusely.

Inferiority complex. His Yorubatic gbomo-gbomo tribal ass wants to be Saudi.
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by DuduNegro: 9:38pm On Feb 17, 2012
Yoruba has been in existence before anything called Saudi. Lamurudu (Almoravid or Nimrod, whichever you prefer) was the father of the Arabas (Arabs). Didn't you read Ojukwu's thesis in Oxford? Even Ojukwu, your lord, . . . talked about Lamurudu and Oduduwa's reign and power. Beaf, educate this "foolagu".
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by YoungBrain: 10:48pm On Feb 17, 2012
DNA DNA DNA

Comprehensive DNA testing would reveal a lot about our lineage.

Many people would be surprised at their ancestory
Re: Afro-asiatic Languages And Nigerian Peoples by amor4ce(m): 1:36am On Feb 18, 2012
PhysicsQED, was that the best you could come up with, referring to your perception of delusion and inferiority complex? With all the experiences you have accumulated from birth couldn't you have done better? Is the act of assidiously trying to put down the person of your fellow as against his argument indicative of maturity and wisdom? I started this thread without any intent to put you down as can be seen in the first post. But look at what you have done in return. I aslo did not refer to the Jebusites in this thread. By the way, since you pointed at delusion concerning the Biblical Jebusites, know that in that same Bible is mentioned a man called Caleb who today is cited for demonstrations of faith - his ancestors were originally Kenezzite but he had an inheritance in Israel. I started the topic in response to the views you put forward on this thread and wondered if you would immediately respond - if at all - since you mentioned there that you "had other things to do this week and in the following weeks" - talking from both sides of the mouth or have you long harboured disdain against me?

The Washitaw of North America say they are Africans, that their ancestors used to trade via ships between North America and Africa. Do you conclude that they are suffering from inferiority complex and delusions? Ivan Sertima, the author of "They Came Before Columbus" also demonstrated this migration. Would you say he was deluded as well? Have they been linked by the oyinbo to African groups?

The Ainu of Japan say their ancestors migrated from the Levant, and similarities between their language and Nigerian languages, Japanese and Hebrew orthography, and Ainu and Egyptian and Yoruba headdresses have been pointed out. Would you say they suffer from delusions and inferiority complexes too? Is the Ainu language classified by the oyinbo as Afro-Asian?










Do you see the Lemba as deluded? What of the Kalenjins of Kenya, Ethiopia and Tanzania?


Hey, the Boers migrated from Europe, the oyinbo Americans migrated from Europe, the oyinbo Australians migrated from Europe (Britain). Do you find these to be easily acceptable unlike the migration accounts of your fellow negroes?


By laffing, is it that you see no wrong in desecrating the collective memories of the ancestors of peoples, ancestors who went through thick and thin, shedding sweat, blood and tears to guarantee the survival of their communities and their identities?

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