I find it almsot laughable when someone on here said.

God the Father is not the Son and is not the Holy Spirit.

Lets rebuff with these verses :

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." - Matthew 23:37

Exodus 3:14 -  God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

John 8:58 - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!"

Colossians 1:17 - "He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

Enigma:

This is a misrepresentation. The first element in the Trinity doctrine is that God is ONE (or 1 if you like)!

The first question I suggest in this thread as indicating potential belief in God as Trinity is: Do you believe that God is One?


As for the emotive nonsense about "people being butchered", that is just a lazy excuse and sidestepping of the issue. Started with the attempt (continued) to run away from the question: how can Jesus be God and The Father God at the same time?

God is not 3, God is 1.

Stop driving yourself round in circles.

Anyway, we will never agree on this one, I guess the most important issue is that God is 1, let's leave it at that.

So:

When The Father said: 'This is My Son' --------- how is that to be understood?

When Jesus said: 'I do the will of My Father' ----- how is that to be understood?

frosbel:


God is not 3, God is 1.

Stop driving yourself round in circles.

Anyway, we will never agree on this one, I guess the most important issue is that God is 1, let's leave it at that.

Meanwhile, I am trying hard not to repay you in kind --- this is your second time. You have been warned, I could very much open up on you and show you for what you are including your cowardice and intellectual poverty.

Soooo when Jesus said:

- My God, why have You forsaken Me ---- who was He talking to/of?

- Father, into Your hand, I commit My spirit ----- who was He talking to?

Enigma:

  So:

When The Father said: 'This is My Son' --------- how is that to be understood?

When Jesus said: 'I do the will of My Father' ----- how is that to be understood?




Meanwhile, I am trying hard not to repay you in kind --- this is your second time. You have been warned, I could very much open up on you and show you for what you are including your cowardice and intellectual poverty.

Now you are persecuting those who oppose you just like the catholic church did in years gone by.

I also notice a veiled threat on your part to resort to insults, well carry on if it makes you happy.

Driving round in circles is not an insult, it simply means you are confusing issues.

Think out of the box !!

,

Whatever, if you push me I will show you for what you are ---- simples.  

Meanwhile, I see you are resorting to one of you usual tactics when you want to run away -------- turn to inanities and banalities.

Of course you will not address the issues and questions.

OK let us see if you have balls! Try answering the questions in my previous post (#35).  

Enigma:

Whatever, if you push me I will show you for what you are ---- simples.  

Meanwhile, I see you are resorting to one of you usual tactics when you want to run away -------- turn to inanities and banalities.

Of course you will not address the issues and questions.

OK let us see if you have balls! Try answering the questions in my previous post (#35).  

Accusing your opponent of wanting to run away from a debate is a well known tactic used by debaters who have no further arguments to produce.

Muslims, Mormons etc are known to employ this tactic to shut up their critics.

Anyway I can see you are getting all worked up and emotional, let me leave you in peace.

Bye ya

As expected ------ NID.

No answer = No balls!

The new encyclopedia Britannica says: Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the shema in the Old Testament: "hear, o Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord" (Deut 6:4). [u]The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. [/u]By the end of the 4th century the doctrine of the trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since. (1976) vol 10 p126.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/605512/Trinity

Maybe its because I've been away but I really don't understand the argument here - seems everyone agrees

1. The Father is God
2. The Son is God
3. The Holy Spirit is God

so, whats the issue?

Nuke

There are a number of issues:

1. Semantics (minor issue this one, really) ---- some object to the word "Trinity".

2. Divinity --- the non-Trinitarians will deny the divinity of Jesus or of the Holy Spirit

3. "Jesus only" --- I have kept quiet about this but (maybe without realising it) it seems to be where frosbel is going with his most recent posts here and elsewhere: that is the idea that only Jesus is God and He is also the Father ------ no difference.



EDIT Number 3 is also called the "Oneness" doctrine.

Enigma:

Nuke

There are a number of issues:

1. Semantics (minor issue this one, really) ---- some object to the word "Trinity".

2. Divinity --- the non-Trinitarians will deny the divinity of Jesus or of the Holy Spirit

3. "Jesus only" --- I have kept quiet about this but (maybe without realising it) it seems to be where frosbel is going with his most recent posts here and elsewhere: that is the idea that only Jesus is God and He is also the Father ------ no difference.



EDIT Number 3 is also called the "Oneness" doctrine.

1. No Semantics, the Trinity is a pagan doctrine

2. Jesus Christ is fully divine, so we agree here

3. Jesus Christ is GOD , or is he not, and yet God is one this is the mystery.

Let's see how Paul put it.

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." - 1 Timothy 3:16

This verse jumped at me about God's spirit, a very good explanation from the bible.

1 Corinthians 2:9-14 "But as it is written: "eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart (mind) of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him." :10 But God has revealed [them] to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. :11[u] For what man knows the things of a man (how can man know or think and understand and perceive and have consciousness of "self" except (through) the spirit of the man which is "IN" him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God[/u]. :12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might know the (spiritual) things that have been freely given to us by God. :13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. :14 But the natural man (the natural mind) does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them,] because they are spiritually discerned."

^^^ Abeg, go and answer questions in post # 35 or comot for road.

Enigma:

^^^ Abeg, go and answer questions in post # 35 or comot for road.

So you admit defeat, good by me

When you grow some balls! When you grow some gonads --- or at least borrow some dog's bollocks. It is not enough to simply speak bollocks.

Enigma:

When you grow some balls! When you grow some gonads --- or at least borrow some dog's bollocks. It is not enough to simply speak bollocks.

Christian language

Wonders are abounding in the church, may mercy be on us all. !!

Imagine if you lived in the Nicene period, you could easily have been recruited to murder people like me for our stand on the BIBLE

^^^ Usual tactics ---- banalities and inanities. You think people are fooled?

When you grow some gonads or borrow some dog's bollocks instead of simply speaking bollocks, we'll see you engage questions posed to you instead of hiding behind the inanities.

Seems Aletheia already settled this matter when he stated that words convey ideas which (my own words) are subject to interpretations and thus to error!

Frosbel threw something into this mix - the M Y S T E R Y of Godliness viz "God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." - 1 Timothy 3:16

While this again is subject to interpretation, we agree that (at least on the surface), it is Jesus that manifested in flesh yet the Bible says that was God; that Jesus is He preached unto Gentiles yet the Bible again refers to Him as God and definitely twas Jesus that was received up into Glory! And of course, same reference insists that is God!

ergo Jesus = God!

I also believe that the word "Trinity" came about as an attempt to understand, explain and rationalize away the verse above.

On the "oneness" idea (as you put it), I would personally agree with that! Explaining the idea of "This is my Son" etc is really simple - all of us have referred to ourselves in the 3rd person. I can remember saying "Nuke, you are too much" a few days ago   - why cannot the Creator do same?

Or maybe its me who still remains clueless what this is about - but aside words, I honestly don't see the issue here!

Your human logic cannot 'crack this hard nut'.

Maybe if you introduce some humility into your outlook , the truth might become more obvious.

I don't engage in the parroting of notions and ideas that are presented as facts, just because they have been the norm for over a thousand years and accepted by all and sundry.

Like I said earlier, think outside the box, don't just believe anything YOU HEAR.

Nuke

The semantic issue of whether to use the word "Trinity" is minor in my view and I will not dwell on it.

Now to Oneness doctrine: I will say you need to study it before you say you agree with it. Let me give you an example.

Bible: baptise in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit

Oneness: baptise in the name of Jesus only  (that is where their nickname "Jesus-only" people comes from).

frosbel:

Your human logic cannot 'crack this hard nut'.

Maybe if you introduce some humility into your outlook , the truth might become more obvious.

I don't engage in the parroting of notions and ideas that are presented as facts, just because they have been the norm for over a thouSand years and accepted by all and sundry.

Like I said earlier, think outside the box, don't just believe anything YOU HEAR.

Look clear off for the time being; give room to people who have gonads and brains! Please, I'm begging.

nuclearboy:

Seems Aletheia already settled this matter when he stated that words convey ideas which (my own words) are subject to interpretations and thus to error!

Frosbel threw something into this mix - the M Y S T E R Y of Godliness viz "God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." - 1 Timothy 3:16

While this again is subject to interpretation, we agree that (at least on the surface), it is Jesus that manifested in flesh yet the Bible says that was God; that Jesus is He preached unto Gentiles yet the Bible again refers to Him as God and definitely twas Jesus that was received up into Glory! And of course, same reference insists that is God!

ergo Jesus = God!

I also believe that the word "Trinity" came about as an attempt to understand, explain and rationalize away the verse above.

On the "oneness" idea (as you put it), I would personally agree with that! Explaining the idea of "This is my Son" etc is really simple - all of us have referred to ourselves in the 3rd person. I can remember saying "Nuke, you are too much" a few days ago   - why cannot the Creator do same?

Or maybe its me who still remains clueless what this is about - but aside words, I honestly don't see the issue here!

Dead right with that comment.

The catholic church and their daughters with their numerous pagan doctrines , tried to rationalize the substance of God and ended up with the same Pagan concept of trinity.

I have stated scores of biblical verses to confirm that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, stated why God is Father, Holy Spirit as his universal presence and Son as the express image of his person.

I used the analogy of a human being who according to the bible is made in the image of God.

For example, you will not say nuclearboy's soul is in the UK, his spirit is in the USA, while his body is asleep. Does not make sense at all.

You are one and yet you are body , spirit and soul united.

God is not 3 distinct persons, but 1 God , Period.

Enigma:

Look clear off for the time being; give room to people who have gonads and brains! Please, I'm begging.

Resorting to the same tactics as the Muslims and co.

I quit my debate with you, seeing that you may be a student of some sort with a quick temper.

However , I am obliged to continue in a civil fashion to talk on these issues with other forum members.

Thank you.

Just clear off with your cowardice!

The word "Trinity" is human reasoning. No matter how we spin it. . .it means three. And the diagram by Athanasius clearly shows that:
[img]https://www.nairaland.com/attachments/640647_520px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English_svg_png99e7063bd6b28b95f47394a18b636603[/img]
despite the attempt to say it represents one.

Consider this; Jesus said to the woman:
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
(Joh 4:23)
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
(Joh 4:24)

Are we saying now that God has another Spirit - called the Holy Spirit? Whereas Jesus says God is a Spirit.

The clear teaching of Scripture is that the Father is God and Jesus is God.
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Heb 1:3)

Is the brightness of God's glory; the express image of God separate from God? I think not:
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?(Joh 14:8-9)

Who did Ezekiel see here?
And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.
(Eze 1:26-28)

frosbel:

Dead right with that comment.

The catholic church and their daughters with their numerous pagan doctrines , tried to rationalize the substance of God and ended up with the same Pagan concept of trinity.

I have stated scores of biblical verses to confirm that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, stated why God is Father, Holy Spirit as his universal presence and Son as the express image of his person.

I used the analogy of a human being who according to the bible is made in the image of God.

For example, you will not say nuclearboy's soul is in the UK, his spirit is in the USA, while his body is asleep. Does not make sense at all.

You are one and yet you are body , spirit and soul united.

God is not 3 distinct persons, but 1 God , Period.

Does the verse below make any sense according to your analogy?

"And Jesus, when He was baptised, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Matthew 3:16-17).

Here, we see Jesus, the beloved Son coming out of the water, Spirit of God (The Holy Spirit) descending on Jesus Christ (The Word) and then the Father speaking from heaven, does this make sense according to your analogy?

aletheia:

The word "Trinity" is human reasoning. No matter how we spin it. . .it means three. And the diagram by Athanasius clearly shows that:
[img]https://www.nairaland.com/attachments/640647_520px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English_svg_png99e7063bd6b28b95f47394a18b636603[/img]
despite the attempt to say it represents one.

The videoclip below explains the diagram you have up there. The word Trinity may not be found in the Bible but that was the best word they could use to describe the attributes of God.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUy-H5MmeGU

For years Christians have struggled to give a clear explanation of the Trinity. However, this video does that, while at the same time refutes the idea that God could be a unitarian being. If God exists the only explanation is that He is a Trinity.

Enigma:

Soooo when Jesus said:

- My God, why have You forsaken Me ---- who was He talking to/of?

- Father, into Your hand, I commit My spirit ----- who was He talking to?

Our Lord Jesus Christ on earth was addressing our Father in heaven.

@Olaadegbu

Thanks.

[digression]I was asking after you recently; I wondered if you followed Dawkins' appearance on Radio 4 with Giles Fraser where Dawkins made a fool of himself to the extent he even called "Oh God" when he became stuck. [/digression]

Two more sayings of Jesus:

John 17:5

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 17:25

“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Quite an issue here! Until I was about 19, I saw Jesus as somewhat of a smaller "lesser" God than the Father! An argument with a roommate at Uni made me believe the manifestation is the reality.

What I mean is - if any of us (with our varying understandings and beliefs) require to see God today, I believe what we will be shown is Jesus! So who IS Jesus then if He is the physical revelation of God? Plus John clarifies His identity to a "T". This academic exercise seems to me somewhat of confusion for that reason as none can show me God outside of Jesus! Even better, none can show Jesus aside of being Lord and the definition of that "Godship" is made abundantly clear & without any ambiguity by Isaiah

Even more worthy of consideration in things like this is the certainty we have that practically anything can be justified using the Bible (for those with standpoint of "I want to win this argument". With that at the back of our minds, I wish to ask

1. Would any of us ascribe less Glory or power to Jesus as opposed to the Father?
2. Which of us supports the Prosperity idea of us being equal to Jesus & therefore equal to God?

I re-iterate that these are all semantics and impact little on the Christian walk!

Jesus Is God
Father is God
Holy Ghost is God else as Aletheia has (as is usually brilliantly exposed), if this were not so, the Spirit of God would be different from the Holy ghost

Finally, I wish to say something to Frosbel - I mean this in the best possible way - you can be attitive and overtly emotional. I am sorry I was rude a few weeks ago but I maintain that only one mad promised me security, progress and welfare. If truly you wish to do good, you MUST know the evil will resist you and thus I say - show proof rather than speculations and hand me a handgun to execute anyone (including Buhari) and see if I will hesitate! Until you supporters of PDP have the same mindset, we will not progress as 160m People but continue the tribal, class based tripe that is wreaking our society

Accept my apologies - I am a Nigerian not a Yoruba