csharpjava:

, the proper processes and practises of the different software methodologies that are available. Just out of interest, which of the software organisations in Nigeria are PCMM or CMMI certified <==#2?

Ghenghis:

#1 => And yeah lots of Indian companies are CMM LEVEL 5, they need it to bid with the big boys (They use it as a leveler to compete with US firms).
A lot of people believe it hasn't achieved what it set out to do.

#2=>Funny enough, there are very few ways of writing good code. Everyone(?) knows good code when they see it. The developer(or code monkey as you call it) has a lot of freedom in implementation. The Architect  largely defines boundaries. So yes, selection of frameworks and APIs is mostly architectural. 

3=>I've inherited a lot of legacy code in different respects, and i believe it made me better. I see solid design choices that'll make you whistle and bugs that'll make you wonder if the programmer went to elementary school, all in the same body of code. That's the reality we live in.

delomos:

Not to mention that agiling is just recently being mainstream (at least comparable to waterfall)

delomos:

^^ don't forget I'm asking talking specifically about a SMALL WEB SOFTWARE COMPANY. That said, so a client is more interested in certification than a functionally working software?

delomos:

#2. Code monkey is actually not a complement (or a synonym for a developer), it's used here in the context of: "if you put enough monkeys behind a type-writer, they'd write a Shakespeare, " Now, re-read my comment in that context.

Ghenghis:

, Business projects rarely have that level of requirements maturity. Hence the failure of "waterfall" to meet their requirements.

Ghenghis:

There are many methodologies that work well though, beyond agile. Microsoft used Spiral quite successfully,

Ghenghis:

The way you have procurement rules in the public sector , there are sometimes very strict rules on those who can bid for certain kinds of contracts. CMM used to be a criteria. Sometimes , it could be number of employees ,  >100,000.

Also how to do you judge, a capability of another party ? Its generally through 3rd party certification ( 6 sigma, CMMI, etc , ) So certifications matter.
And yes client needs to also look beyond certification sometimes (But its a good door opener)

Those certs are not easy to achieve, they require so much discipline. I worked for a coy that had all the resources, but simply didn't have the discipline to achieve CMM certification.

Ghenghis:

, lot of though was not required of code monkeys. I beg to differ ,

delomos:

^^ummm,  finally explains why Windows 95, ME, and Vista sucks. To be fair though, Microsoft definitely put the business of software on the map ( to which some computing purist are still rather displeased) and mostly due to great marketing, super great marketing. (I'd recommend you watch the movie, 'Revolution OS', super great movie:

delomos:

If i propose to my new clients that: "I solved this, this and that problem for Client X, where is our portfolio". Is that a reasonable proposition than, we are blah, blah, blah certified ?

Ghenghis:

When you develop a "simple" app to allow customers debit their account and credit another one : The number of things that can go wrong are so many, its sometimes mind boggling.
When i write (or i'm supposed to write) code sometimes, I just sit and keep thinking. No matter how smart or good you are we all make mistakes, every line of code you write is a potential bug. So there no point rushing, Its a question of picking the one that'll have the smallest negative impact.

Ghenghis:

Windows 95 suck ? Hmm that was the OS that defined what a desktop OS should be ,
ME and VISTA were bloatware (ME especially), Vista was just Window  7 beta.
If you want to hear about software development, research windows 3.1 etc. Back then MS was making computers do things that chip makers hadn't dreamt of. MS were hacker back then, they really pushed the limits of x86.
I'm not really an MS fan, but I'm sure there's no OS with as much appeal and backward compatibility as Windows (Note i'm not saying its the best, but it has the highest number of programs working on the planet).

Ghenghis:

God forbid, but If a loved one were on a life support system or lets say space shuttle; who would you rather have develop the code the one with more processes than software or the code guru that can "develop an e-commerce site overnight".

Ghenghis:

People talk about enterprise software all the time. Its not the size of the code that makes it enterprise class its the breadth of its adoption.
,
No matter how smart or good you are we all make mistakes, every line of code you write is a potential bug. So there no point rushing,  Its a question of picking the one that'll have the smallest negative impact.

csharpjava:

,  requires yet another Software Development Methodology called the Vienna Development Methodology. You can follow this link to find out more about it: Vienna Development Method What I have learnt so far about VDM ,

delomos:

^^ and if I may ask, is there any companies writing space shuttle or life support code in Nigeria? Please stay in context.

delomos:

^^ I honestly don't get your point here, yes, no software can be bug-proof, you make compromises. But how do you know the one with the "smallest negative impact" when you're developing software for "enterprise" (what does that word even mean in this context).

delomos:

I see you're a fan of terminologies (perhaps archaic it seems), see this link (quite an interesting review of the book 'Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable Object-Oriented Software', the punch lines are in the comments): http://www.amazon.com/review/R1YW4R3VD4PBEJ/ref=cm_cr_dp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0201633612&nodeID=283155&tag=&linkCode=

delomos:

I see you're a fan of terminologies (perhaps archaic it seems), see this link (quite an interesting review of the book 'Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable Object-Oriented Software', the punch lines are in the comments): http://www.amazon.com/review/R1YW4R3VD4PBEJ/ref=cm_cr_dp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0201633612&nodeID=283155&tag=&linkCode=

csharpjava:


Design Parterns are a way to avoid developing software from scratch, developing application from scratch can be very expensive. Design patterns enable large-scale reuse of software architectures and also help to document systems. It is similar to a recipe, you will find it quicker to make a special meal from a recipe than for you to come up with a new way of making that meal from scratch. When you design your class diagrams you are making use of design parterns as you do not create all the classes from scratch, that is why you use inheritance and interfaces. Design parterns are not archaic, they are now being used in: Project management, Organisation structures, Requirements analysis, System design, General modelling approaches and Programming.
If your client can afford it and you have all the skills and resources then you can follow the software tradition that the best way to serve the user/customer is by building each new system from scratch.

Ghenghis:

I don't really agree with all of this : Design patterns does not provide an alternative for development from scratch. Its not also not strictly an API or code base, though some vendors implement the pattern in there API.
using class diagrams not not using design patterns

csharpjava:

I don't agree with you also.

Ghenghis:

I wanted to look for a supporting references and voila wiki :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_design_pattern

A design pattern is not a finished design that can be transformed directly into code. It is a description or template for how to solve a problem that can be used in many different situations. So patterns are formalized best practices that you must implement yourself in your application.[1] Object-oriented design patterns typically show relationships and interactions between classes or objects, without specifying the final application classes or objects that are involved.

http://www.vogella.de/articles/DesignPatterns/article.html
A design pattern is not framework and is not directly deployed via code.

csharpjava:

Here is an Abstract of a paper in the IEEE

Abstract
For more than a decade, patterns have influenced how software architects and developers create computing systems. Design-focused patterns provide a vocabulary for expressing architectural visions and clear, concise representative designs and detailed implementations. Presenting software pieces in terms of their constituent patterns also lets developers communicate more effectively, with greater conciseness and less ambiguity. Software patterns influence how developers design and implement computing systems. This paper examine the software patterns' past, present, and future trends, which can help developers improve their projects.
Source: Software, IEEE

Ghenghis:

Yes you implement patterns, my point is that its not class diagrams or UML.
Its also not code.

csharpjava:

When you design your class diagrams you are making use of design patterns as you do not create all the classes from scratch, that is why you use inheritance and interfaces.

Ghenghis:

Yeah, my point is an organization needs process maturity amongst other things to be able consistently perform. Many customers (Nigeria included) look for organizations with huge reputations to deliver their critical systems(It doesn't have to be life critical, say time critical (<== #1)).

Even the most innocuous looking code is susceptible to abuse <== #2, so a developer has the responsibility to weight the odds and decide. For instance, when would you use an Array instead of a Map ? You have to weight the consequences of using either in your current context. But you also consider contexts outside the current.

Also Regarding enterprise: post a very short snippet of code(hope its java) here and we'll analyze that.(Got to get to work now  ) <== #3.

csharpjava:

The fact the an organisation develops software for its clients is no guarantee that they are following the proper practices and processes of the software methodologies that are available, the only way they can show their clients and themselves that they are doing the right thing is through PCMM or CMMI certification <== #4

Design Patterns are a way to avoid developing software from scratch, developing application from scratch can be very expensive. Design patterns enable large-scale reuse of software architectures and also help to document systems. It is similar to a recipe, you will find it quicker to make a special meal from a recipe than for you to come up with a new way of making that meal from scratch. When you design your class diagrams you are making use of design patterns as you do not create all the classes from scratch, that is why you use inheritance and interfaces. Design patterns are not archaic[b] <=#5[/b]

if [ -z "$RESPONSE" ]; then
  echo "You must choose an options"
  exit 1

else
  if [ "$RESPONSE" == "d" ]; then
     # we want to deploy, call that script .
    . $SCR_PATH/deploy/files-i.sh
    . $SCR_PATH/deploy/db-i.sh
 
  elif [ "$RESPONSE" == "r" ]; then
     # now what do you want to roll back, files or db or both?
     echo -n "What do you want to roll back files (f), database (db) or both (b): "
     read ROLLBACK

     if [ -z "$ROLLBACK" ]; then
       echo -n "you need choose f - files or db - database: "
       read ROLLBACK
     else
       if [ "$ROLLBACK" == "f" ]; then
         . $SCR_PATH/rollback/files-i.sh
    
       elif [ "$ROLLBACK" == "db" ]; then
         . $SCR_PATH/rollback/db-i.sh

       elif [ "$ROLLBACK" == "b" ]; then
         echo "**** Starting with database first ****"
         echo " "
         . $SCR_PATH/rollback/db-i.sh
         echo " "
         echo "**** Now on to the files ****"
         echo " " 
         . $SCR_PATH/rollback/files-i.sh
       fi  
     fi

  fi

fi

Ghenghis:

#1 ==> Who said anything about time critical software and agile ?
#2 ==>?
#3 ==>the point was to take a snippet of code and analyse the design considerations
#4 ==> Regarding the book, I've read several books on software design patterns and head first is actually one of the best I've read in that category. Look beyond the learning aids: they picked a software problem and showed how you refactor to patterns.

#5==> It seems the whole thread is jumbled up. I rest my case.

csharpjava:

@ delomos
Going by the name you gave this thread "In Search Of "that" Software Development Methodology" I have this question for you. Say I have a bank and I come to you to write me a software to allow my customers to carry out internet banking , what software methodology will you use and why?

delomos:

^^ After understanding the requirements and expectations (generally consisting of interviewing the stake holders and would-be users), I will [most likely] follow a behavioral/test-driven development. And might this looks like a candidate for MVC/P.

Testing is given priority considering the "things" at stake, and things might appear closer to the real world in MVC/Ps, but then, I'm assuming.

Ghenghis:

In reality organizations usually use a single methodology, and it also means they usually bid for the same type of projects.

Agile methodologies fits well for a banking environment because :
1. Lot of change due to business dynamism
2. Lots of undocumented applications and processes

You definitely need iterative releases. I once developed an integration component for a Bank, it was built to their specifications, we had user acceptance tests , the works. Needless to say what happened when we went into production was another kettle of fish.
Banks keep lots of junk, agile methods are definitely the viable option (At least iterative delivery and lots of customer involvement).

csharpjava:

I want you to look at a situation where you have to develop the banks main system from scratch, which other components like the one you worked on can intergrate with?

Ghenghis:

That very unlikely, are you talking about building a core banking system ? That's millions of dollars in software development, maybe less for a micro finance bank ,
Besides building the core does not absolve you of the responsibility to integrate. You'll almost always meet legacy systems. The bank must have been using something before you came on the scene, and they're not likely going to completely rip that out for your version 1.0_Final

csharpjava:

Sorry I should have asked you the same question I asked delomos which was, say I have a bank and I come to you to write me a software to allow my customers to carry out internet banking, what software methodology will you use and why?

csharpjava:

, I'm surprised that you would go for a behavioral/test-driven development, I take it that you mean Agile.

Ghenghis:

In reality organizations usually use a single methodology, and it also means they usually bid for the same type of projects.

Ghenghis:

I'm telling you I won't look/think for methodologies. I simply use what i typically use. And yes this is typical, :
,

delomos:


^^ Sometimes using what you typically use might be a disaster in the long-run. My case in point: when I was working on "writing" my start-up, I would usually be thinking OO and banging out ERs but considering the nature of my problem domain, I had to step out of my zone and put many other options on the table.

delomos:

^^ It depends on the nature of the organization and company -- most times, the business development part of the organization are not even aware of what's "capable" in engineering, they just want to make a "sale."

Ghenghis:

, In my experience its the opposite: the business side send you 20 RFP/requests off which you qualify 5 as something your organization is willing/capable of handling. Of the 5 you get between 0 & 3 depending on the kind of company. Sales guys think tech guys can do everything in a short time.

delomos:

^^ TDD/BDD == Agile BUT Agile != TDD/BDD

csharpjava:

"In other words, it’s one way [/b]to think through your requirements or design before your write your functional code (implying that TDD is both an important agile requirements and agile design technique)."

csharpjava:

Going by the answers you've given above I will not allow you to develop an internet banking application for me. [b]The reason being that such an application would required that it is complete before being released for my customers to use. A Waterfall or an Iterative Watefall methodology is what will be required for an internet banking Application. The techniques you have mentioned are used for small releases so it is not suitable for an internet banking application that is being developed for the first time.

delomos:

If you're designing an "academic" bank, your approach will work where most often you understand *all* the total requirement before you start building, in the real world, it doesn't work like so.