[size=32pt]Wole Soyinka on Yoruba Religion[/size]

A conversation with Ulli Beier



Beier: I wanted to talk to you about Yoruba religion, because you seem to be the only writer who has seriously tried to come to terms with it. Even many of the Yoruba scholars, who do research into language, literature, history of the Yoruba shy away from the subject - as if they were embarrassed about it ...

Now in your own case, given the type of upbringing you had, I have asked myself how you became interested in Yoruba religion. There is an image "Ake", that has made a very strong impression on me. You were living in the Christian school compound, that was surrounded by a high wall and when the Egungun masqueraders were passing by outside, you had to ask somebody to lift you onto the ladder, so that you could watch the procession going on outside. Your upbringing was designed to shield you from the realities of Yoruba life ... and later on your education in the Grammar school, the University in England - they all were designed to take you further away from the core of your culture.

How then did you find your way back into it? How did you manage to break the wall that had been built up around you?

Soyinka: Curiosity mostly, and the annual visits to Isara - which was a very different situation from Abeokuta! There is no question at all, that there was something, an immediacy that was more attractive, more intriguing about something from which you were obviously being shielded. If you hear all the time "Oh, you mustn’t play with those kids because their father is an Egungun man ..." you become curious: and then you discover that there is nothing really "evil" about it ... that it is not the way they preach about it. Even my great great uncle, the Reverend J.J. Ransome Kuti, whom I never met, composed a song whose refrain was: "Dead men can’t talk ... " One was surrounded by such refutations of that other world, of that other part of one’s heritage, so of course you asked questions about it. Yes, and even if I realized quite early on, that there was a man in the Egungun mask, that did not mean that a great act of evil was being committed - any more than saying that Father Christmas was evil.

I had this rather comparative sense and I wrote in "Ake" that I used to look at the images on the stained glass windows of the church: Henry Townsend, the Rev. Hinderer and then the image that was supposed to be St. Peter. In my very imaginative mind, it didn’t seem to me that they were very different from the Egungun.

So one was surrounded by all these different images which easily flowed into one another. I was never frightened of the Egungun. I was fascinated by them. Of course, I talked to some of my colleagues, like Osiki, who donned the masquerade himself, from time to time.

The Igbale1 was nothing sinister to me: it signified to me a mystery, a place of transformation. You went into Igbale to put on your masquerade. Then when the Egungun came out, it seemed that all they did was blessing the community and beg a little bit for alms here and there. Occasionally there were disciplinary outings: they terrorized everybody and we ran away from them but then, some distance away you stopped and regathered ... maybe my dramatic bent saw this right from the beginning as part of the drama of life.

I never went through a phase, when I believed that traditional religion or ceremonies were evil. I believed that there were witches - I was convinced of that - but at the same time there were good apparitions. And of course I found the songs and the drumming very exciting.



Beier: You never really took to Christianity at any stage ...

Soyinka: Never really - not even as a child. I remember distinctly my first essay prize at secondary school - that was in my first year. My essay was entitled: "Ideals of an Atheist." Yes, I went through all these phases. I just felt I couldn’t believe in the Christian god and for me that meant I was an atheist.

Beier: How old were you then?

Soyinka: I was eleven! But I also enjoyed being in the choir - I was a chorister. I went regularly to rehearsals. I enjoyed the festive occasion, the harvest festival, etc. Then we processed through the congregation, rather than sneaking in through the side entrances. At Christmas and New Year I enjoyed putting on the robes of a chorister. On the way to church I went to see my friend Edun, who lived in Ibarapa. And my Sunday was made even more interesting, when we met the Egungun masquerades on the way - which was quite often.

Beier: Do you remember we went to a conference in Venice, it must have been in 1960 or 1961 ...?

Soyinka: Oooooh yes ...

Beier: There was a writer from Northern Nigeria ... I think it was Ibrahim Tahir. And he made a statement, the gist of which was that Nigeria was, or was about to become, an Islamic country ...

Soyinka: I have actually forgotten that, but it wouldn’t surprise me.

Beier: I am not quite certain what his real argument was or how it was phrased. But I do remember your rather fierce reply! The gist of which was that both Christianity and Islam were conservative forces that actually retarded Nigeria’s ability to copy with the modern world, whereas traditional religions - Yoruba religion at least - was something much more open, and much capable of adaptation ...

Soyinka: Yes, and for the very reason liberating! I am glad you brought up the issue of Islam, because that was also contributory to my entire attitude to imposed foreign religions. You know all this nonsense of religious intolerance which is eating into the country now - it didn’t exist in my youth! During the Ileya we celebrated with our Muslim friends, because they would send us meat from their ram; the Oba would go to the mosque, even if he was a Christian, and vice versa: during Christmas and Easter, our Muslim friends would come to the house. There was always equality between the religions - acceptance. And that in turn made it impossible for me to see one as superior to the other. And of course, the more I learned about Yoruba religion the more I realized that that was just another interpretation of the world, another encapsulation of man’s conceiving of himself and his position in the universe; and that all these religions are just metaphors for the strategy of man coping with the vast unknown.

I became more and more intrigued and it is not surprising that, when I went to study in England. I nearly took "Comparative Religion" as one of my subjects; but then I decided that I would enjoy it more, if I just read into it and visited all sorts of places ... I remember going to this small Buddhist meeting; I visited the so-called fundamentalist religions, the spiritualist churches ... I went to one or two seances. I have always been interested in the spirituality of the human individual. So when people like Tahir - and there have been many of them - have made that kind of statement, I have always risen to counter it very fiercely. Traditional religion is not only accommodating, it is liberating, and this seems logical, because whenever a new phenomenon impinged on the consciousness of the Yoruba - whether a historical event, a technological or scientific encounter - they do not bring down the barriers - close the doors. They say: Let us look at this phenomenon and see what we have that corresponds to it in our own tradition, that is a kind of analogue to this experience. And sure enough, they go to Ifa and they examine the corpus of proverbs and sayings; and they look even into their, let’s say, agricultural practices or the observation of their calendar. Somewhere within that religion they will find some kind of approximate interpretation of that event. They do not consider it a hostile experience. That’s why the corpus of Ifa is constantly reinforced and augmented, even from the history of other religions with which Ifa comes into contact. You have Ifa verses which deal with Islam, you have Ifa verses which deal with Christianity. Yoruba religion attunes itself and accommodates the unknown very readily; unlike Islam, because they did not see this in the Koran - therefore it does not exist. The last prophet was Mohammed, anybody who comes after this is a fake. And Christianity! The Roman Catholics: until today they do not cope with the experience and the reality of abortion! They just shut the wall firmly against it. They fail to address the real problems of it; they refuse to adjust any of their tenets.

Beier: The Yoruba people have always been willing to look at another mythology and find equivalents in their own tradition. For example: when I first met Aderemi, the late Oba of Ife - that was at Easter 1951 - he told me about the different shrines in his town and he said: "You know, in Yoruba religion we know the story of Mary and Jesus" and he told me the myth of Moremi (Mary) who sacrificed her only son in order to save her town. And he said: "Really, Moremi is Mary." I was impressed, because he could see that there was some basic metaphor that remained valid across a variety of cultures: He knew that the basic truth is the same - only the trappings are different ...

Soyinka: The Yoruba had no hostility to the piety of other people.

Beier: Yoruba religion, within itself, is based on this very tolerance. Because in each town you have a variety of cults, all coexisting peacefully: there may be Shango, Ogun, Obatala, Oshun and many more ...

Soyinka: Even in the same compound!

Beier: Even within the same small family - because you are not supposed to marry into the same Orisha!

But there is never any rivalry between different cult groups; they all know they are interdependent. Because they are like specialists: everybody understands specific aspects of the supernatural world. Nobody can know everything. The Egunguns know how to deal with the dead; the Ogun worshippers know how to handle the forces that are symbolized by iron. But for the Ogun worshippers to function, it is also necessary that Shango worshippers and Obatala worshippers and all the other Olorisha perform their part. Only the concentrated effort of all of them will bring peace and harmony to the town.

So naturally: when the Christians first appeared, the Olorishas could hardly suspect ...

Soyinka: ... how hostile the new religion would be ...

Beier: I think that tolerance is one of the big qualities of Yoruba culture. Even the treatment of handicapped or mentally disturbed people - it all shows how much more tolerant Yoruba culture was than Western cultures.

Soyinka: Yes. Europeans tend to hide such people, whereas Yoruba religion actually accounts for them.2

Beier: You said before that Yoruba religion "liberates." Can you expand on that?

Soyinka: I believe that the truly liberated mind is never aggressive about his or her system of beliefs. Because it is founded on such total self confidence, such acceptance of others, that there is no need to march out and propagate one’s cause. That is why Yoruba religion has never waged a religious war, like the Jihad or the Crusades.

Beier: In fact they never make converts! It is the orisha himself who chooses his devotees ...

Soyinka: The person who needs to convert others is a creature of total insecurity.

Beier: There is this beautiful Yoruba proverb: "The effort one makes of forcing another to be like oneself, makes one an unpleasant person!"

Soyinka: And even in practical terms, in day to day terms, take Shango for instance. Shango becomes the demiurge of electricity, so that this new phenomenon does not become an object of terror, it does not alienate you, because Yoruba religion enables you to assimilate it. The ease with which the Yoruba moves into that world and adapts to phenomena that had not come into the purview of his religion until recently - it means that he does not see the need to protect his family or his town from the benefits of this new technological experience. This is another evidence of this liberating attitude, which becomes ingrained in one. It is not just a bag of tricks that helps you to cope with the world: the mind is already prepared.

The same thing applies to human relationships. Social relationships. The whole experimental nature of what the modern world should be. The way other religions absolutely block your entry into new progressive fronts - Yoruba religion just doesn’t do that!

Beier: It is significant that when a Yoruba says "Igbagbo" (a believer) it means "Christian", because it is nonsensical to say "I believe in Shango" or "I believe in "Ogun". One is too secure in one's world view. I think I have mentioned to you once that remarkable reply of an old olorisha, to whom is grandchild said: "The teacher said, your Obatala doesn’t exist!" He simply answered. "Only that for which we have no name does not exist." He could not be shaken.

Soyinka: That is a brilliant way of putting it. And you have been to Brazil and Cuba. In that part of the world you find Europeans - not just Mulattoes - but people of ‘pure’ European descent, who accept the humanism of this religion and who recognize it as their own way of truth. And they cannot conceive of any other way of looking at the world. This proven ability of this religion is well documented.

Beier: A few days before I came to Nigeria, I received a letter from a Portuguese student at the University of Munich. She came across a small community of Olorishas in Lisbon and again she found this a more realistic and intense way of looking at the world.

Soyinka: I know a number of people like that. On the other hand, what you said earlier on about Yoruba scholars and their reluctance to come terms with Yoruba religion ... it is a very curious phenomenon ...

Beier: So you agree with my estimation?

Soyinka: Oh yes, I agree with it absolutely. And the worst part of it is that those fellows who speak about "false consciousness" - and I don’t just mean the dying breed of Marxists - they are all totally preconditioned. Even when they are trying to be objective about African religion in general - or about their own traditional belief system - they are totally incapable of relating to it. They say: "This is a contemporary world. What use is our traditional religion today ...", and I feel tempted to say to them: What use is a system of beliefs like Islam and Christianity in the contemporary world? And they cannot see that they have totally failed to make the leap: to take Yoruba religion on the same level as any system of belief in the world, that they are committing a serious scholarship lapse. In other words they are totally brainwashed by what I call these "elaborate structures superstition" - Islam and Christianity particularly. They have accepted these as absolute facts of life which cannot be questioned.

They lack the comparative sense of being able to see Yoruba religion as just another system - whether you wan to call it superstition, belief, world view, cosmogony or whatever - you have to do it on the same level with any other system. Once you do that, many questions which have been asked become totally redundant, because they have not been asked about other religions. But when our scholars come up against their own religion, their faculty of comparison completely disappears.

Beier: There is a whole body of prejudices - which have their roots in the ignorant or malicious misinterpretations of missionaries - and which still persist in the minds of many Nigerians.

A typical one is the accusation that the Egungun try to "deceive" women and children, by pretending that they are spirits. Whereas of course every child knows that there is a man in the mask ...

Soyinka: Absolutely! I did.

Beier: Everybody knows that the mask is carried by a dancer who is specially trained for that task - but at the height of the dance he becomes the ancestor. That is a totally different matter. These "wicked" man who allegedly try to intimidate women - can’t people see that during the Egungun festival they are in fact blessing women and that those who pray for children dance behind them?

Soyinka: And again, if you take the communion: here is a thing that happens every Sunday, sometimes twice a week. In which the officiating priest actually gives you a wafer and says "This is the flesh of Christ" and he gives you a drop of wine and says "This is the blood of Christ" ...

Beier: Another defamation of Yoruba religion is the notion that is a form of exploitation of the people. But surely it is much less so than Christianity! Take a babalawo, for instance: When you consult a babalawo, you put down threepence. A token fee! There is no money involved in divination. Have you ever seen a rich babalawo?

Soyinka: (laughs)

Beier: A traditional babalawo was a poor man. He was not even interested in being rich. In fact the whole society did not even know wealth in our modern sense. What kind of possessions could you own, that others didn’t have? Another Agbada? Everybody had enough yams to eat. Everybody lived in a spacious compound that would accommodate him, his wives and his children. Everybody had enough clothes to wear ... everybody had access to land. What else could you want? There was nothing to buy.

The grand old Olorisha priests I knew in the fifties: the Ajagemo of Ede, the Akodu of Ilobu ... they were poor people, in spite of their influence. There was no such thing as a fat priest. Whereas now some of these new Churches really do exploit their congregation. Only a week ago one of these self styled "prophets" went to see a friend of mine and told her: "I had a vision. The child you are going to give birth to will be born dead, and you too will die in childbirth. The only way you can survive is to fast for three days without water and to give money to the Church!" Now here is not only exploitation but also blackmail!

Soyinka: It is happening all the time. All the time. This whole spate of prophesying, this competitive mortification of people is nothing but an attempt to bring powerful and wealthy people under the control of the priest. Even ordinary individuals are not exempted. They have succeeded in some cases. Oh yes. They rush to them and say: You must do this and that. And sometimes when people take no notice of them, their relatives will! There was a relation of mine, he got so frightened when one of these prophets predicted a likely death for me, that he ran to him and asked him what to do. And I said to him: I will curse you, if you go again to that church. I will follow you there and break up that ceremony. So they do succeed on so many levels and it has become competitive ...

Beier: Now let us talk about the way in which some of these traditional Yoruba concepts have been used in your plays. If I am not mistaken, it was in "A Dance of the Forest" that you have first used some kind of Yoruba symbolism in a play.

Soyinka: Yes, of course by that time I had written the draft for The Lion and the Jewel, but that was a very different thing. It was on a different level ...

Beier: The striking thing about "A Dance of the Forest" is the character of Ogun. This image of Ogun of your play is a rather personal, "unorthodox" orisha - that you have, in fact, created a new kind of Ogun.

Soyinka: Hmmm ... that is true.

Beier: But of course, even in purely traditional Yoruba terms, that is quite a legitimate thing to do. Ogun has never been a rigid defined being; the orisha can only live through people - by "mounting somebody’s head" - you could go so far to say that when the Orisha fails to manifest himself in this way through his priests and worshippers, he ceases to exist. If the priest who personifies Ogun is an unusually powerful Olorisha he can modify the image of Ogun. So that even in Yoruba tradition Ogun consists of a variety of interrelated personalities.

Any traditional priest would accord you the right to live Ogun your own way, in fact they would think it the normal thing to do. You recreate Ogun - or perhaps one could say you are sensitive to other aspects of his being. Because Ogun is a very complex being ...

Soyinka: Yes, indeed.

Beier: It is again the typical Yoruba openness and tolerance that we are talking about. It applies not only to the relationship between the different orisha cults, it also applies to the variants of interpretations within one and the same cult group.

Soyinka: And in the Diaspora of course - the same thing. the concept of Orishala or Oshun are very different in Brazil or Cuba; and in turn the manifestations of the orisha over there have affected the interpretations of some of the scholars and they in turn have transmitted some of these ideas to our most traditional priests. So that when you speak to a Babalawo you may notice a new perception, a slightly altered perception.

Beier: Actually Pierre Verger was instrumental in establishing contacts between Brazilian olorisha and their families in Dahomey and Nigeria. Messages were sent back and forth, which were ultimately followed by exchange visits. Today there is quite a bit of movement between the two countries. Look at Sangodare, for example: the young Shango priest who grew up in Susanne Wenger’s house. He was invited to Brazil four times by groups of olorisha.

Soyinka: Take Eshu for instance. The stature of Eshu has grown considerably, so that the original myths of Eshu that I knew as a child have grown even more colourful.

Beier: ... the "devil",

Soyinka: That’s right, and again Wande Abimbola admitted once that these new aspects of Eshu are now found here in Nigeria as well. It is this movement ...

Beier: And of course it shows that the whole thing is alive. But you know what Melville Herskovitz thought about Verger’s travels between Brazil and Nigeria? "Terrible man", he said to me "he is destroying laboratory conditions."

Soyinka: Oh perfect! That’s perfect. That’s beautiful: it really sums up the whole lame battle - scholarship faced with a living phenomenon.

Beier: Now the Ogun you created in "A Dance of the Forest" stresses particularly the creative aspect. He is not merely the warrior, he is also the creator!

Soyinka: This was for me very obvious, because the instrument of sculpture belongs to Ogun; many sculptors are his followers and so is the blacksmith, again a very creative person, not just an artisan. And then of course there is the Ijala3 - he is therefore by implication the father of poetry. All this made me delve more into the complexity of Ogun and given my own creative bent, I explored that a lot more. And also given my own acknowledged combative strain, I found a fine partner in Ogun. It was a kind of liberation for me, having grown up in a narrow form of Christianity.

Beier: Which is very simplistic.

Soyinka: Very simplistic, everything has to be black or white: you are either a good child or a bad child. When I grew up and was given a little bit to self-analysis and introspection, I wondered why I should be inclined towards the creative - I really feel alive when I am creating - while at the same time I would readily drop my pen or typewriter without hesitation and pick up whatever combative instrument necessary ...

Yoruba religion made me see that there was no contradiction - it was the most normal thing in the world to have within the same person these two or more aspects.

Beier: Each orisha contains and bridges contradictions, and human beings are the same. To pretend otherwise is hypocrisy. People don’t realize how unrealistic Christianity is. Yoruba religion portrays the world as it is and makes you live with it, the way it is. It teaches you how to turn a dangerous situation, how to diffuse tension, how to turn a negative situation into something positive even.

But in "A Dance of the Forest" you created another character called Esuoro. I find it hard to relate this figure to any Yoruba tradition - I am tempted to say you simply invented him.

Soyinka: Oh, that was purely dramatic. That is something I have not taken beyond the pages of the book. It’s purely dramatic. I created him in the same way - I suppose - in which Puck was created by Shakespeare, taking parts from various mythological beings. As you know: Oro is one of the most intangible beings ... so I fleshed him out, somehow.

Beier: By far the most important statement you have made about Yoruba culture is your play "Death and the King’s Horsemen". I don’t know whether you remember this, but it was Pierre Verger who found out about this famous incident in Oyo. He was even able to verify it, by writing to the District Officer, who was then living in Canada.

Soyinka: I do remember that you gave me a kind of summary of the story ...

Beier: I thought that the material was crying out for a play. But for several years, you didn’t do anything with it.

Soyinka: Well, I wasn’t ready for it.

Beier: I then gave the material to Duro Lapido who produced "Oba Waja" in 1964. Then, maybe a decade later you wrote the "Horseman." What was it then that prompted you to go back to this material finally? What new insight had occurred? What new preoccupation with Yoruba religion, maybe?

Soyinka: That’s a question that’s always very difficult to answer. Because it has to do with the entire active creative process: gestation, something that takes place on different levels of consciousness or subconsciousness. But don’t forget, I wrote this play in Cambridge, when I was there for a year as a fellow in Churchill College.

And it could have been the resentment of the presumption! Because you know in a Cambridge College named after a personality like Churchill, you have encapsulated the entire history of the arrogance of your colonizers; the supercilious attitude towards other cultures, the narrowness, the mind closure - it could be all of that. It was not a year which I enjoyed particularly. There were a few stimulating intellectual contacts, which made it worth while; but I think there was the basic underlying question "What the hell am I doing here? What the hell are we doing here?"

I felt like a representative; a captured, creative individual having to deal with another culture on its own terms, in its own locale. And passing the bust of Churchill on the top of the stairs almost every day - with all that Churchill meant. The big colonial man himself! It could have been all of this that brought back the memory of this tragic representation of the way their culture would always impinge on ours. I suspect that is the way it must have been. I must have been tempted to challenge this: How dare this smugness be! How dare it be exported ...!

Beier: They came without the least attempt to come to terms with the culture they ruled.

Soyinka: Hardly ever!

Beier: This was particularly so in Southern Nigeria. They referred to Yorubas and Igbos as riff-raff, whereas Northerners, of course, were gentlemen.

Soyinka: Of course, the North appealed to their sense of feudalism.

Beier: You have given a very plausible explanation for the immediate stimulus that prompted you to write this play. But of course the far more difficult question is: what actually happens in the poet’s mind? What are the secrets and maybe subconscious processes that produce the particular images and the particular kind of magic of a play like "Death and the King’s Horseman"?

This is almost unanswerable, and many writers would simply refuse to be drawn into any discussion about it. But you have in fact attempted to find a metaphor for the creative process which you described at length in "The Fourth Stage". I am fascinated by that essay because it seems to me that you are giving a very Yoruba explanation and one that seems to have some parallels in Yoruba religious thought. You speak about the artist going on a kind of journey; a trip into another dimension from where he returns with a kind of boon ... and inspiration ... but maybe you better summarize it yourself.

Soyinka: I think what I was referring to was the mystery of creativity itself. Which is almost like a dare, a challenge of nature secrecies. One goes out almost in the same way in which Ogun cleared the jungle - because he had forged the metallic instrument. He is very much the explorer.

The artist is in many ways similar; each time, he discovers a proto world in gestation; it’s almost like discovering another world in the galaxy. The artist’s view of reality creates an entirely new world. Into that world he leads a raid; he rifles its resources and returns to normal existence. The tragic dimension of that is one of disintegration of the self in a world which is being reborn always, and from which the artists can only recover his being by an exercise of sheer will power. He disintegrates in the passage into that world. He loses himself and only the power of the will can bring him back. And when he returns from the experience, he is imbued with new wisdoms, new perspectives, a new way of looking at phenomena.

I was using Ogun very much as an analogue: what happens when one steps out into the unknown? There is a myth about all the gods setting out, wanting to explore and rediscover the world of mortals. But then the primordial forest had grown so thick, no one could penetrate it. Then Ogun forged the metallic tool and cut a way through the jungle. But the material for the implement was extracted from the primordial barrier.

This I took as a kind of model of the artist’s role, the artist as a visionary explorer, a creature dissatisfied with the immediate reality - so he has to cut through the obscuring growth, to enter a totally new terrain of being; a new terrain of sensing, a new terrain of relationships. And Ogun represented that kind of artist to me.

Beier: I can find parallels to Yoruba concepts here on several levels. The artist as the "creature of dissatisfaction with the immediate reality" is really very reminiscent of the orisha, who starts life as a human being - a king or a warrior - but because of his dissatisfaction with the immediate reality "leads a raid into that other world", losing himself on the way: Shango hanging himself at Koso, Ogun descending into the ground at Ire, Oshun turning into a river at Otan Aiyegbaju - all these are examples of the creative human being breaking through the limitations of ordinary human existence.

Of course, the orisha does not return - he undergoes a metamorphosis and becomes a divine being. But he is there to remind us of the existence of that other world, to remind us that we can dare to penetrate, however briefly, that other sphere of existence.

Similarly the olorisha going into trance crosses the border, "rifles the resources" of the divine world and returns with a new understanding. His personality undergoes significant changes through such repeated experiences. The maturity of the old orisha priests, their wisdom and tolerance, their insight into the human mind are the result of these raids into the divine sphere. Am I right in thinking, that this is something very similar - almost identical to the experience you are describing in the "Fourth Stage"?

Soyinka: Yes, definitely!

Beier: I think you can describe the act of the priest who goes into trance also as creative act; because he has to personify the orisha, recreate him through his performance, through song and dance. So in that sense there may be some real hope left: for a while we must helplessly watch the culture crumble in front of our eyes, there are still some individuals, like yourself, left who can capture something of the spirit of this culture through the very individual process you have described and who can keep the orisha alive in some new form of existence.

Soyinka: There is a lot of hope left. I’ll give you an example: when I gave a lecture in Ibadan recently titled "The Credo of Being and Nothingness", when I explained certain aspects of Yoruba beliefs, the role of the orisha, the reaction, the forcefulness of response which I could see on the faces of the young people was really very encouraging. It was more than just an expression of their misgivings towards the way in which they were brought up, more than just a feeling of deprivation. These young people are really looking for new directions in their lives. I believe there is real hope.


1 Igbale: The secret grove of transformation, where the mask is donned.

2 The Yoruba creation story relates that Obatala created human beings out of clay and that one day he was drunk on palm wine and made cripples, albinos and blind people. Since then, all handicapped people are sacred to him.

3 Ijala: The poems of Yoruba hunters. The hunters are worshippers of Ogun, because they use iron.

Dear friend.
Once again you make an extraordinary contribution.
Not only by what the figure of W. Soyinka, his valuable opinions on religious and traditional, but by the mention of such important figures as controversial, as Pierre F. Verger, Abimbola, etc..
Unfortunately, in my country is very difficult to access Soyinka's books, but I have read something on the internet.
Interestingly the author's opinion about the different "personalities" in Orisa, and also the situations that produce intercontinental exchanges of information.
I will read the article much more carefully, it is wonderful from start to finish.
It is of great artistic and anthropological.
Worth gold!
Thank you and warm greetings!

Refreshing. . . Wished that didn't finish.

We have so much demonized ourselves, and yet we claim we are Africans. We are actually lost

this is just the begining brother. There is more to come. it is time to feed the medicine for this mental malaria.

Interesting read. I share a similar position to Prof. Soyinka concerning the marginalization of traditional beliefs without a fair assessment. . . and whilst accusing traditionalism some people forget that the same things they use to disqualify the native beliefs is all but apparent in the imported faiths.

I find myself agreeing with so many things he and the interviewer have aired in their dialogue.

I became more and more intrigued and it is not surprising that, when I went to study in England. I nearly took "Comparative Religion" as one of my subjects; but then I decided that I would enjoy it more, if I just read into it and visited all sorts of places ... I remember going to this small Buddhist meeting; I visited the so-called fundamentalist religions, the spiritualist churches .

His early activities mirror mine. I’ve visited a Buddhist temple, wandered into a home of scientology, shared questions at an Islamic gathering etc even acquired the literature of various religions. . . . mostly born out of curiosity and intrigue and to expel some misconceptions I carried about these belief systems. I may not be religious or even like the thought of being religious but I dislike the thought of being ignorant even more.

But what is remarkable is that despite some people negatively regarding religion, some religious people themselves are no different in those perception and views concerning other beliefs or willing to confront any possible misconception when they should perhaps be more understanding knowing how unfortunate it is to have their belief misconstrued.

@Emofine; DO you think that an educated person can not be ignorant in something, considering the fact that knowledge is continuum and knowledge about us and our environment may just be at the infant stage?
Is it not possible that there is a Creator of what we see, in addition to what we do not see or know? Or did all of these happened without a causer, and we see such an order in all that we know, a repetition?

If the causer is One can we all agree to say its a Higher Existence, a Being, our God? Or are there many true causers in this so wonderfully ordered existence that we are part of; human specie being just a small portion of the all? If there are more than one causer, the probability is that the interest of one may be sometimes different from the other[s], at a particular time. What such condition of different agenda may have on us and our environment will definitely be chaos. Is this not possible? Imagine 2 persons having independent control over a thing, both at the same time that each could do as he/she wishes to effect the dynamics and how it all ends. Do we think that one of these 2 overlords will not want to render the intention of the other useless?

Such is the idea of God with multiple entity in the God head. No one of them can be truly in control; each with different agenda will rid the others or render them useless.

Such in a sense is the mini God to True Single God Who is capable of acting alone, over the mini God and all that think highly of the mini God.

Should we serve God that needs to be fed, clothed, protected from the elements? None of them is Truly The God worthy of worship, especially when we make it with our hands, tools, factories.

God Almighty is One; Unique in every respect and Independent of us, while all depend on Him. Now that is the God I am inviting you to. Not what others can not present to be able to control all; My God does not get weary, tired, sleep, exhausted or fatigue. He was complete before the beginning and He has patiently appointed each his/her/its time.

Sweetnecta: @Emofine; DO you think that an educated person can not be ignorant in something, considering the fact that knowledge is continuum and knowledge about us and our environment may just be at the infant stage?
Is it not possible that there is a Creator of what we see, in addition to what we do not see or know? Or did all of these happened without a causer, and we see such an order in all that we know, a repetition?

There are creators of what we see, go read the Hindu verders. . . .

If the causer is One can we all agree to say its a Higher Existence, a Being, our God? Or are there many true causers in this so wonderfully ordered existence that we are part of; human specie being just a small portion of the all? If there are more than one causer, the probability is that the interest of one may be sometimes different from the other[s], at a particular time. What such condition of different agenda may have on us and our environment will definitely be chaos. Is this not possible? Imagine 2 persons having independent control over a thing, both at the same time that each could do as he/she wishes to effect the dynamics and how it all ends. Do we think that one of these 2 overlords will not want to render the intention of the other useless?

False, your arguments are so childish like that of a baby. . .the cause of the universe are many and not one. . . .They all came together around a common purpose and created the universe. . .Take a look at the Air Bus A380 jumbo jet, many people with a purpose came and built it. . .They all came together around a purpose and built the air plane. . . .Same with the Gods, they came together and created the universe, when two people or entities come about for the same purpose they can not render the intention of the other useless. . .did the people that build your house render the intention of each other useless?

Such is the idea of God with multiple entity in the God head. No one of them can be truly in control; each with different agenda will rid the others or render them useless.

Not true. . .Once many entities come together around a common purpose they can agree and create what ever the want and maintain it. . .The Gods agreed, came together around a common purpose and created the universe. . .

Such in a sense is the mini God to True Single God Who is capable of acting alone, over the mini God and all that think highly of the mini God.

All the Gods are true Gods. . . .

Should we serve God that needs to be fed, clothed, protected from the elements? None of them is Truly The God worthy of worship, especially when we make it with our hands, tools, factories.

Neither should we serve any God that needs people to fight for it, tell people about him, build its temples, and tell people about it. . .he can do it himself if he is alive, no?. . .

God Almighty is One; Unique in every respect and Independent of us, while all depend on Him. Now that is the God I am inviting you to. Not what others can not present to be able to control all; My God does not get weary, tired, sleep, exhausted or fatigue. He was complete before the beginning and He has patiently appointed each his/her/its time.

Lie, the Gods are many and they came together around a common purpose and created the universe. . . .The Gods do not depend on humans, they get weary, tired, sleep, exhausted or fatigue.

PAGAN 9JA:
this is just the begining brother. There is more to come. it is time to feed the medicine for this mental malaria.

Good news dear brother!
That kind of exposure really enriching!

@ Sweetnecta:
My English is very bad, true, but we are talking about W. Soyinka and African culture or Islamic understand what is god?
Anyway thanks for your kind invitation ..
Brother PAGAN 9JA has exposed a fine article, which contains cultural, traditional, religious ...
It would be so good that we did comment on the article ...
My respects.

mazaje:

There are creators of what we see, go read the Hindu verders. . . .



False, your arguments are so childish like that of a baby. . .the cause of the universe are many and not one. . . .They all came together around a common purpose and created the universe. . .Take a look at the Air Bus A380 jumbo jet, many people with a purpose came and built it. . .They all came together around a purpose and built the air plane. . . .Same with the Gods, they came together and created the universe, when two people or entities come about for the same purpose they can not render the intention of the other useless. . .did the people that build your house render the intention of each other useless?



Not true. . .Once many entities come together around a common purpose they can agree and create what ever the want and maintain it. . .The Gods agreed, came together around a common purpose and created the universe. . .



All the Gods are true Gods. . . .



Neither should we serve any God that needs people to fight for it, tell people about him, build its temples, and tell people about it. . .he can do it himself if he is alive, no?. . .



Lie, the Gods are many and they came together around a common purpose and created the universe. . . .The Gods do not depend on humans, they get weary, tired, sleep, exhausted or fatigue.

I dey fear to support this guy because he can then turn on me and start to yab me too, but anyway I like the way that this post demonstrates that most of these people cannot withstand the scrutiny of their own arguments. If only they could apply their own arguments to their religious beliefs then this world would be such a different place.

I especially like the part about coming together for a common purpose. That is essential to my view of things. The very idea of Intention that is that is embedded in the very fabric of existence is crucial for people interested in religion to grasp.

Pastor AIO:

I dey fear to support this guy because he can then turn on me and start to yab me too, but anyway I like the way that this post demonstrates that most of these people cannot withstand the scrutiny of their own arguments. If only they could apply their own arguments to their religious beliefs then this world would be such a different place.

I especially like the part about coming together for a common purpose. That is essential to my view of things. The very idea of Intention that is that is embedded in the very fabric of existence is crucial for people interested in religion to grasp.

In a world as fanatical, violent and irrational, are necessary many people like you. I do not think it's fair that someone from making a thread off topic unnecessarily.
People can agree or disagree, but there must be a minimum of respect.
I appreciate you.
But well ...
On with Soyinka!
My regards

[Quote]There are creators of what we see, go read the Hindu verders. . . .[/Quote]In normal situation, I will take Deols advise that the best answer for a fool, is silence which must be acted but not spoken or typed out. I making exception here by typing it out because this idiot thinks he is hot, like boko haraam, they needed to be put in their places. Hindu book called for no idol worshiping you slowpoke while everything is god to them. Hence the Creator is not seen. Except people like you, even the pagans know that God Almighty is not what they worship on earth, but He is beyond the highest plain; the highest heaven; ask pagan9ja in Hausa language.

[Quote]False, your arguments are so childish like that of a baby. . .the cause of the universe are many and not one. . . .They all came together around a common purpose and created the universe. . .Take a look at the Air Bus A380 jumbo jet, many people with a purpose came and built it. . .They all came together around a purpose and built the air plane. . . .Same with the Gods, they came together and created the universe, when two people or entities come about for the same purpose they can not render the intention of the other useless. . .did the people that build your house render the intention of each other useless?[/Quote]Name some of those who came together to build the Universe, if you have evidence. Talk is cheap. The jumbo jet has Iron in it; who created Iron; give us a name if you are sincere.The people who built my house had a master; the architect. The architect even have a master; the owner of the house. There is one owner. I don't think blood gets to your brain, the reason you lack understanding of how the world works.

[Quote]Not true. . .Once many entities come together around a common purpose they can agree and create what ever the want and maintain it. . .The Gods agreed, came together around a common purpose and created the universe. . .[/Quote]It is not good enough to just say the Gods and think we will fall for your baseless coming together with common purpose lie. Pick up the Bibles and see how Jesus was trying to get out the jam. But the God that has higher power over him, according to the Bibles gets His way. Think. I dislike slowpoke quality.

[Quote]All the Gods are true Gods. . . .[/Quote]name them, otherwise you are just an empty barrel.

[Quote]Neither should we serve any God that needs people to fight for it, tell people about him, build its temples, and tell people about it. . .he can do it himself if he is alive, no?. . .[/Quote]Idle hand and idle mind. God commands mercy and equity and right of self, including right of assembly; hence the places of worship are erected. Those who are angered sometimes repel the injustice by standing up to stop it. Is that s strange for your frozen brain. Many things are alive that you don't see with your naked eyes. Even under powerful microscope. God The Creator, you want Him to show you Himself when you ignore all the signs of His Existence, yet you believe so many microbes are around you? Misplaced priority.

[Quote]Lie, the Gods are many and they came together around a common purpose and created the universe. . . .The Gods do not depend on humans, they get weary, tired, sleep, exhausted or fatigue.[/Quote]Name the Gods that are weary, etc and I will show you fake Gods. Your thinking is fake. shameful soul.

^^^

Mazaje wasn't asserting there are gods, but that polytheism is as valid as monotheism. . .

If God is life, then he can't be the origin of life, for the same reasons we can't be.

There can't be an Almighty, because it implies he has no limits.

simple experiment for sweetnecta:

take a glass of water. think of it as nothing. now add ONE drop of ink. that is one God.

now take another clean glass of water and using both hands, add TWO drops of ink at the same time. that is[b] two Gods[/b].


so therefore, if there is one God, there has to be many Gods at the same time!

From the guy who claimed that "The Gods came together" for "a common purpose" to create the Universe, you seem to not be an evolutionist after all the "atheist" front you have been projecting? Since you are now a creationist by your "the Gods came together", tell us which God created death for those things that are alive, since you are certain that you are alive now, and in the future you are certain to die off? If they all created death of all they have done, for what purpose did they create the things to come to life?

What purpose would they want their collective masterpiece to die off; destroyed, disappear, comes to nothing? Which of the Gods created aging; withering, diminishing beauty, strength, vigor, power, knowledge, ability? Apart from the financial gain expected by the Airbus manufacturer for a repeat purchase by the one who bought the one that is now old and unworthy of airtime, will the manufacturer would have wished that his handwork go to waste bin?

Presenting argument without logical support is weak. Presenting spiritual argument with spiritual base, understanding is worse than weak; you can be an atheist and be a creationist at the same time. One of the two positions will be a statement of fallacy; you are not sincere to it; not holding it to be true. Gods came together for common purpose you said. That's a creationist talking, with multiple God head idea. Will you are a polytheist, I am a radical monotheist because I say there is Only One God Who is Complete and Powerful to do all thing He wants and wills all things into His Purpose and Order, Desire.

Few days ago, I learned that the worms that will consume the dead body in the deep grave is going to be created from the eyes and tongue of the dead person in the grave. This new information answered my curiosity of how a person decays, especially when I hear the yorubas say "don't eat worms in heaven", taking that heaven to start from the grave, assuming that it is not the grave they meant by heaven. It is the eyes and tongue that are responsible for most of our "sins". Imagine one is carrying the things that will eat him in the grave? I am sure you probably in your abject ignorance go against this without thinking first, or able to offer reasonable explanation of how worms gets to the dead person and feed on him.

Sweetnecta: tell us which God created death for those things that are alive, since you are certain that you are alive now, and in the future you are certain to die off?

Obatala. Historical Fact.

Sweetnecta: If they all created death of all they have done, for what purpose did they create the things to come to life?

Patience is a virtue. Your question shall be answered on judgement day.

Sweetnecta: What purpose would they want their collective masterpiece to die off; destroyed, disappear, comes to nothing? Which of the Gods created aging; withering, diminishing beauty, strength, vigor, power, knowledge, ability?

Zeus created aging. allah created withering. jehovah created diminsihing beauty, shango is the god of strength, Chukwu is the god of vigor, obangiji is the god of power, olorun is the god of knowledge, thor is the god of ability.

Sweetnecta: Apart from the financial gain expected by the Airbus manufacturer for a repeat purchase by the one who bought the one that is now old and unworthy of airtime, will the manufacturer would have wished that his handwork go to waste bin?

He'll just sell it to the Nigerian government.

Sweetnecta: Presenting argument without logical support is weak. Presenting spiritual argument with spiritual base, understanding is worse than weak; you can be an atheist and be a creationist at the same time. One of the two positions will be a statement of fallacy; you are not sincere to it; not holding it to be true. Gods came together for common purpose you said. That's a creationist talking, with multiple God head idea. Will you are a polytheist, I am a radical monotheist because I say there is Only One God Who is Complete and Powerful to do all thing He wants and wills all things into His Purpose and Order, Desire.

bla bla bla. My leprechaun will kick your god's ass anyday. He can't will anything into his purpose and order, Desire etc etc.

Sweetnecta: Few days ago, I learned that the worms that will consume the dead body in the deep grave is going to be created from the eyes and tongue of the dead person in the grave. This new information answered my curiosity of how a person decays, especially when I hear the yorubas say "don't eat worms in heaven", taking that heaven to start from the grave, assuming that it is not the grave they meant by heaven. It is the eyes and tongue that are responsible for most of our "sins". Imagine one is carrying the things that will eat him in the grave? I am sure you probably in your abject ignorance go against this without thinking first, or able to offer reasonable explanation of how worms gets to the dead person and feed on him.

Allah is the god of worms, so he alone knows how the worms get to the dead body.

Sweetnecta: In normal situation, I will take Deols advise that the best answer for a fool, is silence which must be acted but not spoken or typed out. I making exception here by typing it out because this idiot thinks he is hot, like boko haraam, they needed to be put in their places. Hindu book called for no idol worshiping you slowpoke while everything is god to them. Hence the Creator is not seen. Except people like you, even the pagans know that God Almighty is not what they worship on earth, but He is beyond the highest plain; the highest heaven; ask pagan9ja in Hausa language.

Idol worshiping?. . .Allah is an arabian invisible idol. . .Sure the creators are not seen, have you ever seen the pantheon of mayan and greek Gods that came together and created the universe?. . .+

Name some of those who came together to build the Universe, if you have evidence. Talk is cheap. The jumbo jet has Iron in it; who created Iron; give us a name if you are sincere.The people who built my house had a master; the architect. The architect even have a master; the owner of the house. There is one owner. I don't think blood gets to your brain, the reason you lack understanding of how the world works.

Zeus, Alectrona, Anemoi, these are the Gods that created iron. . .I perfectly understand how the world works, people come together to make things work and create things and systems. . .Just the way the Gods came together and created the universe. . .

Not true. . .Once many entities come together around a common purpose they can agree and create what ever the want and maintain it. . .The Gods agreed, It is not good enough to just say the Gods and think we will fall for your baseless coming together with common purpose lie. Pick up the Bibles and see how Jesus was trying to get out the jam. But the God that has higher power over him, according to the Bibles gets His way. Think. I dislike slowpoke quality.

. . .What has the bible got to do with anything?. . .Am talking about Gods like Phaethon creator of planet jupiter , Hesperus creator of planet venus, Phaenon creator of planet saturn, Pyroeis creator of planet mars. . . .These Gods created each planet. . .You better believe in them or their wrath shall fall upon you. . .

name them, otherwise you are just an empty barrel.

I have named them already. . .

]Idle hand and idle mind. God commands mercy and equity and right of self, including right of assembly; hence the places of worship are erected. Those who are angered sometimes repel the injustice by standing up to stop it. Is that s strange for your frozen brain. Many things are alive that you don't see with your naked eyes. Even under powerful microscope. God The Creator, you want Him to show you Himself when you ignore all the signs of His Existence, yet you believe so many microbes are around you? Misplaced priority.

I said there are many Gods, i even gave you their names, they are all invisible. . .They have given us signs for their existence and will not appear to you. . .They exist and they came together and created the universe. . .

]Name the Gods that are weary, etc and I will show you fake Gods. Your thinking is fake. shameful soul.

The Gods are not weary. . .Your God is fake. . .He is the imagination and creation of arab men. . .My Gods are real and the came together and created the universe. . .

mazaje:
Pyroeis creator of planet mars. . .

Blasphemy!!! Pyroeis is NOT our God!!!!! You better stop if your don't want to get abducted by Martians.

Sweetnecta: @Emofine; DO you think that an educated person can not be ignorant in something, considering the fact that knowledge is continuum and knowledge about us and our environment may just be at the infant stage?
Is it not possible that there is a Creator of what we see, in addition to what we do not see or know? Or did all of these happened without a causer, and we see such an order in all that we know, a repetition?

Every day is a learning curve. No matter how educated an individual is there is still room to acquire more knowledge. And it is the willingness to acquire more information concerning a particular subject that separates the uninformed from the wilful ignorant individual who consciously chooses not to expand their thinking.

Sweetnecta, I am most certain that there is a source at least. And I also believe in the possibility of a creator. If this entity is indeed the most xeroxed entity then there must be an original for any counterfeit to persist, I've often wondered.

What is also striking is the strand of similarities found in many belief systems so again I've often questioned if the one in which you call god could not have revealed itself in contextually relevant ways to all people at all time.

Also this idea of god being a body is not something I care to adhere to. Because if we do have a source and people title that source as god then that source (not necessarily a body) could be vapour, or liquid etc. Really I have no qualms with those who want to bottle up this entity and adhere to such as a personal god but when one does that and tries to force that portrait on another individual or tries to promote their own concept of truth as the legitimate offering marginalizing other people’s belief in the process, I certainly have a real problem then and that is what makes me to want to pick apart at such a person’s so called rendering of the "truth".

Like Soyinka and Beier said, it is insecurity that makes one want to fish for followers . . .maybe because the numbers in one’s party may help strengthen their notion in that ideal and the comfort in not being the sole being to adhere to such concept may make one feel that the truth in which they adhere to is thus realer.

If the causer is One can we all agree to say its a Higher Existence, a Being, our God? Or are there many true causers in this so wonderfully ordered existence that we are part of; human specie being just a small portion of the all? If there are more than one causer, the probability is that the interest of one may be sometimes different from the other[s], at a particular time. What such condition of different agenda may have on us and our environment will definitely be chaos. Is this not possible? Imagine 2 persons having independent control over a thing, both at the same time that each could do as he/she wishes to effect the dynamics and how it all ends. Do we think that one of these 2 overlords will not want to render the intention of the other useless?

Such is the idea of God with multiple entity in the God head. No one of them can be truly in control; each with different agenda will rid the others or render them useless.

Such in a sense is the mini God to True Single God Who is capable of acting alone, over the mini God and all that think highly of the mini God.

I understand what you are trying to say. But even if there was one creator or god would not his followers serve him and worship him differently. Even in the same religious body people still have their own interpretation hence the birth of different denominations.

Well regarding that and the concept of one god, I think you may be trying to disqualify other theism because having two masters who may not be in accordance to each other at all time may be difficult for their follower.

I want you to consider this though, in a company there is a division of labour so there is usually a specialist in each functional role. There are many gods in certain belief systems but still you will find that there is a supreme deity governing these subordinates. If you think about it, in a company, despite the number of employees in their individual functional role. . .they are all part of one body at the end of the day managed by one head. Now with certain theology such as monotheism, the faculties are just consolidated into one being . . .in polytheism these gods are essentially part of one body . . .there is still a oneness found even in polytheism so I don’t see it as contradictory if an individual serves two or more gods (well unless they profess monotheism when the opposite is true) that are essentially in harmony with each other. But perhaps the two or more gods are equal in supremacy - (which I doubt because they will still have their specialties and will be called upon according to the needs of their followers most likely) – and have a conflict of opinion then that is a private matter between the entities and their follower to resolve.

Should we serve God that needs to be fed, clothed, protected from the elements? None of them is Truly The God worthy of worship, especially when we make it with our hands, tools, factories.

Like Mazaje has already countered should we thus worship a god that needs advertisers of who “he” is? Have people to defend “him”? etc. . . what you have written in order to relegate those gods are essentially rituals anyway. Why do people cast their own gods? well why didn't God write the holy book?
You tell me.

God Almighty is One; Unique in every respect and Independent of us

If god is apparently in us then how is he independent of us?
In order for this being to qualify as a creator this entity had to create. In order for this being to be recognised as god, this entity created sentient beings that will acknowledge "his" pre-eminence, giving glory to this entity.
How then could this almighty God be independent of us when one of “his” main purposes for creating mankind was for us to worship “him”? am I wrong?

while all depend on Him

Nope not true. Not everybody is god-dependent. . .and that’s why these particular people according to your god will be quenching in the inferno called hell.

Now that is the God I am inviting you to.

No thank you.

"God" emofine will cry out in definite situation[s]. but she denies God outside the specific situation[s].

@Pagan9ja: [Quote]simple experiment for sweetnecta:

take a glass of water. think of it as nothing. now add ONE drop of ink. that is one God.

now take another clean glass of water and using both hands, add TWO drops of ink at the same time. that is two Gods.


so therefore, if there is one God, there has to be many Gods at the same time!
[/Quote]In all your suggested experiments, I able to control [lord over] the glass, the water, the ink, etc, even my intentions. Yet I am nothing because I can't even control my heart beats; it has been regulated by its Maker. I cant control the flow of blood in my body. I can't make my heart stop and start it over. I can't make blood not flow in my body and then turn the "flowing process" on. Nothing about me I truly control out of human nature, the system The Creator has but in me.

But in your experiment, the ink does not have the ability to deny me of its identity, its turning the clear water somewhat to the ink color. The ink, water, glass, etc all obey their own nature, form and function because they have no freewill to act contrary. But the humans have freewill; we see many denying God, some making up gods, some assigning responsibility to nothingness. Mr. Pagan you even fashion your own god[s] with your own hands and tools that you control; you submit to what you created with your own hands; from your own thinking or thinking of your forefathers. You didn't choose paganism; it was chosen for you. That's not free thinking, a fair choice. I am a muslim because I adopted it personally after I find it sound and completely logical. I am grateful that my heart leaned to it from my birth. No judaism or christianity attracted me because judaism is tribal superiority on one hand and rejects further guidance on another. christianity made a god out of man, then made another out of a thing that they could not define. Paganism as i have said mold their own gods with their own hands; hindus make everything a god. Some others say there is no God and everything is accidental. But we know that there is always a causer of "accident". There is no accident that has no reason and why and a time before it and a time it starts and the aftermath of the accident. There is no accident that does not have an end.

We as humans had a beginning and a definite Beginner. We all have ending and a definite End-er. If the ink in the experiment do not turn the water to the ink color, I will throw away the ink as not worthy of its function. If the glass does not retain the water, I will throw away the glass for being unworthy. If the water did not pore or colorless as I need, I will throw it out unworthy of being part of my experiment. Each element or ingredient that function as expected, I will not throw out as unworthy. It means that I am happy with the performance of each. God is our Lord in this experiment; we are the ink, the world is the water and the highest heaven is the glass. The One Who controls all these, performing the experiment is God Who knows the end result even before He begins the experiment.

Its one experiment; even if it is more than 1 experiment, there is One Experimenter. God is ONE and He is not made, but He is the Maker. There are no many gods as the other guy is proposing, since he as a person is unique, if only by slightest degree on his finger tip. Can a no Unique Designer made him so specifically unique? And if there are many Gods, One will try to emerge as the Head, rendering the desires of the others worthless.

Sweetnecta: "God" emofine will cry out in definite situation[s]. but she denies God outside the specific situation[s].

@Sweetnecta

The ink scenario was just an analogy, which you were expected to pick out the substance. Regulation, creativity, physical effort and all other characteristics of the "Maker" could be broken down to simpler and highly specialized Gods. The diversity in Nature and the Universe could suggest the plural mind of the "Maker". I'm not saying polytheism is the correct way, but its as good as an explanation as Monotheism. Even Allah works with a motley of angels, jinns and others; as long as they have no Cause and are eternal.

Most material entities have no minds to appreciate free will, if freewill is possible in the first place. They work within their powers (natural)

Whether everything has a Cause is another BIG question.

Whether there is really such a thing as Cause or whether it is just the way that the Mind works, by arranging events into causes and effects, IS ANOTHER BIG QUESTION?

And when we dismantled the experiments of ink, kay17 termed it as allegory. Whatever it is, in the experiments, there is a single Controller, causing everything to happen.

Emofine, you are lost for words? The reality is that you will say "my God" in the right situation. It is a thing already in your genetic make up.

Your "BIG QUESTION" is easy for your Creator to answer. Look around; the answer is already there.

the rantings of a confused soul disguising yoruba traditional religion's superstitutions and ignorance for tolerance.ive really never read the words of a man more rude than this soyinka hallucinator.comparing yoruba superstitutions and canibalism to islam.

may be he needs a hair cut for him to think stright!

LagosShia: the rantings of a confused soul disguising yoruba traditional religion's superstitutions and ignorance for tolerance.ive really never read the words of a man more rude than this soyinka hallucinator.comparing yoruba superstitutions and canibalism to islam.

may be he needs a hair cut for him to think stright!

And islam is what? arabic superstition, legends, mythologies and fantasies?. . .YES. . .

LagosShia: the rantings of a confused soul disguising yoruba traditional religion's superstitutions and ignorance for tolerance.ive really never read the words of a man more rude than this soyinka hallucinator.comparing yoruba superstitutions and canibalism to islam.

may be he needs a hair cut for him to think stright!

I wish you people would just move to Saudi already and become their slaves. Or at least move to mauritania, the arabs still have black slaves over there.Then you can finally be happy that you're surrounded by islam.

mazaje:

And islam is what? arabic superstition, legends, mythologies and fantasies?. . .YES. . .

There are few things more annoying than a black person who kowtows to these middle eastern claptrap stories. IMHO lol

The lagosshia jacka$$ is probably yoruba too, but he can't see that yourba mythology is as valid as his cherished arab bs.

Sweetnecta: And when we dismantled the experiments of ink, kay17 termed it as allegory. Whatever it is, in the experiments, there is a single Controller, causing everything to happen.

Your "BIG QUESTION" is easy for your Creator to answer. Look around; the answer is already there.

A polytheist concept is not less valid than the One God concept. If you feel it is then produce that idea with compelling logic. As of now you haven't, there could be a team of scientists in a Lab if we are interested.

I find the idea of labelling the Universe creation and an abstract Creator without providing the reason for such labels and jumping to magical conclusion.

LagosShia: the rantings of a confused soul disguising yoruba traditional religion's superstitutions and ignorance for tolerance.ive really never read the words of a man more rude than this soyinka hallucinator.comparing yoruba superstitutions and canibalism to islam.

may be he needs a hair cut for him to think stright!

I don't think Yorubas were a cannibalistic society.

Islam also, has its bag of superstitions: the moon splitting, the purpose of stars. . .

you can call Islam as you please.that is tolerance from me as a muslim.but a confused set of tales and evil practices devoid of any truth or direction should not by any chance be packaged and marketed (as soyinka is doing) to be some sort of a spectacle.christians like "kay" can go ahead to support soyinka because "confused souls think alike".

Most of us are out of touch with the African metaphysical, foreign religions like islam have bastardized and demonized it and our identity along with. We have misconceptions that all that's left of it is JAZZ, which is not true. Africans had once had a colourful unique view of the world.

Islam unfortunately is known around the world as a religion built on violence, intolerance and petty differences.

Kay 17: Most of us are out of touch with the African metaphysical, foreign religions like islam have bastardized and demonized it and our identity along with. We have misconceptions that all that's left of it is JAZZ, which is not true. Africans had once had a colourful unique view of the world.

Precisely.

LagosShia: the rantings of a confused soul disguising yoruba traditional religion's superstitutions and ignorance for tolerance.ive really never read the words of a man more rude than this soyinka hallucinator.comparing yoruba superstitutions and canibalism to islam.

may be he needs a hair cut for him to think stright!

Sir Wole Soyinka has won Nobel Prize and international recognition for his work. YOu Sir on the other hand have no right to criticize and insult him, unless you and he are on the same standing. What have you won? first do some good and become someone, then I will listen and weigh your insults.

and let me tell you this again, for i dey never tire to do so. Islam is a religion that SCREAMS VIOLENCE, RAPE, MURDER, HATRED AND CULTURAL GENOCIDE. the only difference between you and them bloody christians is that, christians have done so for the past 2000 years but they do that now usually secretively in the form of ugly missionary work among innocent tribesmen in SOuth,South-East Asia, South Sudan and other parts of Africa and in parts of South America (jehovas project, etc), over the past 100 years. while you felows do it openly even now.