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Stats: 1060766 members, 1230468 topics. Date: Sunday, 19 May 2013 at 01:31 PM
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by East: 7:36am On May 28, 2012|
Those who minister at the altar most eat from there (1 Corinthians 9:8 "Doesn’t the Law say the SAME thing?" (referring to how the priests
lived on the tithes and offerings). Paul brought the principle of the Levitical tithe — "the SAME thing" — over to the support of New Testament ministry.)
N/B Tithing doesnot stop you from giving. you as a christian most give to the needy and poor.
So because i am not justified by the Law, i can go ahead and kill abi? cos it was a law not to kill abi?
@Goshen, i know that you have indicated here that you are a bible scholar but let me advice that revelation knowledge is far above intellectual knowledge brother
Goshen360: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Gal 5:4
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by East: 7:43am On May 28, 2012|
This is where paul talked about tithing and it is very very clear:
,........ in 1 Corinthians, ch. 9,Paul teaches on the financial support of the work of God and uses commands
from Moses’ Law as guidelines — 1 Corinthians 9:8 "Doesn’t the Law say the SAME thing?" (referring to how the priests
lived on the tithes and offerings). — "the SAME thing" — over to the support of New Testament ministry.
and again let me post it:
1 Corinthians 9:8 "Doesn’t the Law say the SAME thing?" (referring to how the priests
lived on the tithes and offerings).
Have you now seen where Paul talked about tithes?
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by East: 7:51am On May 28, 2012|
@Fhemmy, God questions for Goshen &
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by Jem1: 8:00am On May 28, 2012|
Can you seriously tell me that Jesus RULED OUT these TITHES and tell me where JESUS RULED THEM OUT?
Deut 27:12 "When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, [b]you shall give it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow[/b]so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.”
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by Jem1: 8:05am On May 28, 2012|
Can you @East say the prayer in Deut 26:13 before the Lord your God as the Israelites did BEFORE THE LORD THEIR GOD based on HIS COMMAND in Deut 26:12
13 Then say to the Lord your God:
“I (@East)[/b]have removed from my house the [b]sacred portion [/b]and have given it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, according to all you commanded. [b]I have not turned aside from your commands nor have I forgotten any of them.
14 I (@East) have not eaten any of the sacred portion while I was in mourning, nor have I removed any of it while I was unclean, nor have I offered any of it to the dead. I have obeyed the Lord my God; I have done everything you commanded me. 15 Look down from heaven, your holy dwelling place, and bless your people Israel and the land you have given us as you promised on oath to our ancestors, a land flowing with milk and honey.”
- Have you (@East) removed from your house your TITHES of the SACRED PORTION?
- Have you given the tithes of the sacred portion [/b]to the following:
1. the levites
2. the foreigner
3. the widow
4. the orphan
- Have they all eaten and are they [b]satisfied?
- Have you turned aside from SOME OF THE COMMANDS of the LORD?
Are some commands more equal than others?
East: During the Law:
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by Jem1: 9:53am On May 28, 2012|
1 Cor 9
13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the GOSPEL.
Maybe we should re-write/change the verse to:
13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the
Those who preach the gospel should live of the GOSPEL.
We are not to recreate the TEMPLE in Jerusalem or ALTARS. Or else, we would need AARONS SONS etc
We should support those who preach the gospel by our giving.
Do you want to re-create all the ITEMS that was SERVED in the TEMPLE as food and all the ITEMS that was OFFERED on the ALTAR, in the EXACT SAME WAY??
East: i want you to see what Apostle Paul had to say about it:
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by Jem1: 10:22am On May 28, 2012|
I've copied this from a previous post in another thread (I'm not sure how to use the Nairaland quote).
I think it's relevant here. You can choose to give of your own volition your ten percent but can you say it is a law/commandment that christians MUST abide by or else they've failed God? Can you re-create God's tithing commandment (they were COMMANDS) and obey it to the letter and abide by the spirit of the commandment so that those GOD cared for are taken care of?
Does the spirit of tithing in modern christianity KILL THE ORPHAN by refusing them tithes and does the LETTER to the Israelites GIVE LIFE TO THE ORPHAN by giving them tithes by [b]COMMAND of the Lord?[/b]
Here's what I wrote on the other thread:
"The truth is that, the Letter of Tithing CANNOT be kept by Christians because God was specific in the way He defined it (He described it as HOLY and BELONGING to Him):
*Only produce HARVESTED in the Land of Isreal by Israelites (except the Levites) and animals (i.e. herds, flock) were to be Tithed.
Some say they keep the Spirit of Tithing, but it would seem NEW LAWS have been made that are enforced AS RIGIDLY and LEGALISTICALLY like the Letter.
The Letter which was a COMMAND to the Israelites was even kinder;
1. Only those crops harvested from LAND in Israel were tithed.
2. It excluded those who increased in ways other than agric produce (they were not COMMANDED to tithe shekels, gold etc)
3. Those who's animals increased by less than a 10th DIDN'T have to tithe at that stage e.g. if your animals increased by 18 you would tithe 1 animal
4. It remembered the Levites (they received tithes)
5. It remembered the widow, the orphan, the poor, the stranger (they received tithes)
6. It remembered the Tither (who ate of his tithe in celebration)
7. [b]There were Holidays (the 7th Year & the year of Jubilee) where the tither wouldn't tithe[/b]
8. Levites didn't tithe
9. Priests didn't tithe
9. Not Every Israelite tithed only those who increased per Lev 27
But today,even WITHOUT a COMMAND to Christians by God
Those who teach Christians to Tithe
1. Insist EVERY Christian MUST tithe or else he's robbed God.
2. Insist EVERY 10% on your INCOME for life is HOLY and BELONGS to the Lord.
3. Every 10% Income for LIFE MUST be tithed (or else according to some, a curse applies to the tither).
4. EVERY gift must be tithed.
5. Students must tithe school fees/pocket money from their parents
(In ancient Israel, the student's parents would have tithed at harvest and the student WOULN'T TITHE the items from the barn a second time!)
6. Some churches would not give promotions to their members or let them marry non tithers etc
7. The only tithe they remember is the Levitical Tithe AND SO
8. The tithe MUST ONLY be paid to Church/Pastor
9. The Christian MUST NOT give his tithe to widows, orphans, the poor etc or else it is NOT tithe.
10. The Christian MUST NOT eat his tithe.
11. Any deviation from the above would lead to penalties as the Christian is taught he has broken the hedge and the serpent/devourer WILL bite.
12. The Christian has no tithe holiday or else he's used what is holy and belongs to God.
(There are variations but the above is quite common)
The Spirit vs The Letter
It seems the Spirit here killeth (for at least the widow, the orphan and the poor) and the Letter giveth life (if you are poor).
* It's important to give as Christians but it's wrong when the scripture is tweaked to co-erce people. We should give lovingly, generously and sacrificially."
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by East: 11:38am On May 28, 2012|
Sorry Jem1, i didnot say the were a law, i was showing how the principle of Tithing was uphold by paul.
nevertheless i said tithing was voluntary as you can see from Abraham'""s case. I wanted to point that
saying that tithing was a law and wa are no longer under any law but under grace and therefor should not tith is unscriptural.
From the law, the tithes were to be paid to the temple, which nowadays we call it church and here is how it was to be use:
1. Supporting the work of God
2. Providing for his laborers (the Levites who ministered at the temple)
3. To support the alien (stranger, homeless or disadvantaged) the fatherless and widow is also established in Deuteronomy 26
Now you can see that even the orphanage was mention. Now the law never asked the isrealite to go pay tithes to orphanages.
When they paid the tithes to the temple, the laborers in the temble administered how it was used by giving to the poor, homeless, disadvantaged etc to my understanding.
Now this doesnot mean you can not make a free will offering to an orphanage or even to the church.
You can donate to a ministry, church, orphange etc. But the tithe is to be given to a church.
It is not you place to question what men of God are doing with your tithes but itz your place to pay your tithes.
There are faithful churches around you where you can pay your tithes.
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by East: 11:55am On May 28, 2012|
In Matt 23:23 and Luke 11:42, Jesus is not saying that we should not pay tithe, He is condemning the religious leaders who were fulfilling the letter of the law without having the right spirit. Notice that He is still telling them that "these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."
"Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel" (1 Cor:13-14). Here Paul is restating the principle in the Old Testament that those who are ministers are to live by the funds that are paid into the Church. The offerings were to pay the expenses of the Church and the Tithe was to pay the wages of the ministers etc.
Now i think we should have been asking why men of God are not like Paul because (perhaps he never depended on the tithes and offerings of the church, sure he had means). Look at what Paul did;
1 Corinthians9:18 What is my reward then? [Verily] that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. and
19: For though I be free from all [men], yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
We should be rather concern that men of God feed fat on tithes and offerings (if they really do) and we find needed, rejected, widows etc around them.
Also when men of God will take care of these less previllage in our society, we will say they have hidden motives, what then do we want?
Now, i will advice whosoever to pay his or her tithes to a living church, then donate or why not help your neighbor in need?
there is order in the church of God
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by Jem1: 12:32pm On May 28, 2012|
Even though you've said it's voluntary, you use the word 'Pay' making it obligatory/compulsory.
You even go further than the law by saying Christians unlike Israelites, must not give tithes to orphans directly contrary to what God commanded in Deut 26. You are attempting to keep aspects of the law but shortchanging the orphans by creating a new law.
Jesus in Matt 23:23 spoke about tithing under the law. He didn't make a new law asking that they forsake the old Commandment which allowed the tither care for the widows, orphans, tithe holidays, etc.neither did He make a new Law commanding Christians to tithe to Pastors in the new way where Christians are prohibited from giving the newly commanded tithes to orphans.
13 Then thou shalt say before the Lord thy God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of mine house, and also[b] have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments [/b]which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten them
The Israelites were not prohibited from giving the tithes in Deut 26 to orphans directly, why create a new kind of giving called 'tithes' under grace where christians are prohibited from giving the 'new tithes' to orphans?
Are some of God's commandments more equal than others?
Since you say "Jesus is not saying that we should not pay tithes", did He exclude the tithes in Deut 26 when He mentioned tithing in Matt 23:23? Did He prohibit giving of tithes directly to orphans in Matt 23:23
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by Jem1: 1:36pm On May 28, 2012|
You are the one making a distinction between OFFERING & TITHES for Christians. The early gentile Christians didn't tithe neither did they say 'offerings are allocated for church expenses and tithes for wages for apostles'.
There is no such commandment.
Gentile Christians didn't tithe. A lot of Israelites didn't tithe as they were not commanded to. Not every 10th in Israel was holy & belonged to God neither were the robbers for not tithing.
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by Pastor Kun(m): 3:53pm On May 28, 2012|
When East first joined this tithing debate with the 'innocent' way he asked questions I thought he was genuinely ignorant about the whole tithing issue but seeing the way he as started twisting scriptures to justify the fraud I can see he is no better than other hypocrites that have assaulted the bible on this forum to justify the scam. Can you guys see the way he is trying to force tithes into Paul's letter to the Corinthians? Anybody that has 'revelation' knowledge as he fraudulently claim would know that in the time of Paul, tithes was strictly agricultural produce and it was given once a year it could never have been cash or a way of routinely supporting the gospel/temple. What he has done is to force the modern day twisted understanding of tithes into scripture and twist it to deceive those who have refused to study scriptures for themselves and then call it 'revelation' knowledge. Maybe it's revelation from the devil though, but it's clearly not from God.
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by Goshen360(m): 4:01pm On May 28, 2012|
@ Pastor Kun,
You are right and nothing can be truthful more than what you have said. I have told "East" that I will respond to him in ALL the things he came to teach AFTER his studies and got revelation. Many things he needs to answer from the revelation he now has.
Like I said in the other thread, I will answer you according. There are many questions you also need to answer us from your revelation teachings. Okay. We will resume tomorrow. Thank you.
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by Ptolomeus(m): 10:28pm On May 28, 2012|
East says he received the revelation? Then he's a phony future!. If he had only read the Bible know that he who takes tithe is a thief. There is nothing biblical about it. East may be practicing to be a pastor, and also why you practice to steal.
East ... go to work honestly. Collect the tithe and pretend revelations is sin.
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by SisBrenda(f): 1:08am On May 29, 2012|
Eer Pastor the question was posed @ all of us. I may not have studied theology like the pastorness but I know doctrine is what man interprets the word of God and how we apply it to ourselves. If you like don't pay tithe I will wave my tithes @ you from heaven while you beg me to bring you the tithe basket from hell.
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by Jem1: 8:00am On May 29, 2012|
Is it your submission that:
1. People like Jesus who were carpenters
2. i.e Those who would have been paid wages
3. and those who increased during the time of the Israelites in ways different from the definition of Tithing in Lev 27:30-34 are in hell?
4. They were never commanded to tithe shekels, gold, silver etc
5. Neither do we have biblical examples of tithes being items different from the agric produce (see definition below)during the Law.
30 "'A tithe of everything FROM THE LAND, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD. 31 If a man redeems any of his tithe, he must add a fifth of the value to it. 32 The entire tithe of the herd and flock--every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd's rod--will be holy to the LORD. 33 He must not pick out the good from the bad or make any substitution. If he does make a substitution, both the animal and its substitute become holy [/b]and cannot be redeemed.'" 34 [b]These are the commands the LORD gave Moses on Mount Sinai for the Israelites.
- It is why - ‘NOT EVERY TEN PERCENT IN ISRAEL was HOLY and BELONGED to GOD’.
- It is why the 10% of those who increased in shekels, gold etc was not tithed. It was not a part of the items considered HOLY and BELONGING to God
- It is why early gentile Christians DIDN'T TITHE
- They are NOT in hell because they did not tithe; they were NOT COMMANDED to TITHE.
- Wherever tithes are mentioned under the law i.e. whether the command or examples of what real Israelites did, they were always AGRIC PRODUCE to be eaten (except; pls refer to vs 31 where a fifth (i.e. a penalty) was added increasing the value from being a tenth).
*pls read the following [/b]where it shows only agric produce was commanded and tithed; [b]Israelites who increased differently to Lev 27 i.e., in shekels, gold etc DID NOT TITHE:
a. Lev 27:30-34
b. Num 10:37-39
d. Deut 26:12
i. Matt 23:23
*see also Luke 18 which is where a hypothetical pharisee boasted of giving a 'tenth of all I get'. Some say he may have been boasting about giving a 10th of all his income i.e., not only agric produce. Pls read his example and see if he (the hypothetical Pharisee) was now issuing a new command to Israelites who increased in shekels or gold to tithe contrary to God's instruction which had been dutifully kept for 1,400yrs from the time of Moses to Jesus.
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his bosom and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
*You may want to 'partially' copy the Israelites who tithed (as NOT ALL THE ISRAELITES tithed and you don't have the holy items commanded from the LAND in Lev 27); You may give 10% of your earnings but YOU CANNOT give that as a LAW to Christians [/b]and then disguise it as a COMMANDMENT from GOD to [b]ALL CHRISTIANS and then begin to judge people using 'a tithing yardstick' as the key to heaven and hell.
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by Pastor Kun(m): 10:34am On May 29, 2012|
People are certainly perishing for lack of knowledge. Both in this life and the next.
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by TheShopKeeper(m): 3:44pm On May 29, 2012|
The report below may be useful in helping us to understand more about tithing.
Most of us only read the bible and are too lazy to study, hence we don't have an in-depth understanding about the bible.
We should endevour to be like the Berien christians who after Paul has taught them, will still do further studies to make sure Paul is teaching them correctly. We christians of this dispensation have turned the tithing issue to be a religious achievement just like the Pharisees in Jesus's days.
"The New Testament does not once introduce tithing into the grace of giving. Tithes are mentioned only three times in the New Testament: (1) in censoring the Pharisees for neglect of justice, mercy, and faith while giving meticulous care to the tithing of even garden produce (Matt. 23:23; Luke 11:42); (2) in the exposure of the proud Pharisee who 'prayed to himself,' boasting that he fasted twice each week and tithed all his possessions (Luke 18:12); and (3) in arguing for the superiority of Melchizedek, and hence of Christ, to Levi (Heb. 7:6-9).
"It is clear that Jesus approved tithing as a part of the Temple system, just as in principle and practice he supported the general practices of the Temple and the synagogues. But there is no indication that he imposed any part of the Temple cultus on his followers. Tithes were chiefly produce, formerly eaten at the sanctuary by the one tithing and later eaten by the priests. Tithing as set forth in the Old Testament could be carried out only in a religious system built around a system of animal sacrifice.
"Many Christians find the tithe to be a fair and workable plan for giving. So long as it is not made to be a coercive or legalistic system, it may prove to be a happy plan. However, one may not validly claim that tithing is taught in the New Testament. It is recognized as proper for Jewish observance (Matt. 23:23; Luke 11:42), but it is not imposed upon Christians. In fact, it is now impossible for Jews or Christians to tithe in the Old Testament sense. Tithing today only faintly resembles the ancient ritual practice belonging to the sacrificial system of the Jews."
Stagg has summed it up.
"While much may be said for adopting the tithe voluntarily as a standard for one's giving without rigidly imposing it upon others as a Christian requirement, it is clear in adopting such a practice that one is not carrying on the Old Testament practice. At most one is doing something only remotely analogous to the tithing practice of the Old Testament, which was a tax to support the Temple and the priestly system, a social and religious system which no longer exists. Tithes were obligatory in Judaism as a tax until the destruction of the Temple in a.d. 70, but they are not thus binding upon Christians.
This is not to discredit tithing, but it is to clarify its relationship to the New Testament. It is to deny that the New Testament supports the coerciveness, legalism, profit motive, and the bargaining which so often characterize the tithing appeals today. As a voluntary system, tithing offers much; but it must be redeemed by grace if it is to be Christian. To plead that 'it works' is only to adopt the pragmatic tests of the world. Much 'works' that is not Christian. Tithing, if it is to be congenial to New Testament theology, must be rooted in the grace and love of God."
I believe the above gives a detailed and concise analyses into the subject of tithing which is causing so much controversy in our present day christiandom.
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by TheShopKeeper(m): 3:53pm On May 29, 2012|
In addition, our giving must be free-will, sacrificial and from a cheerful heart.
|Re: Advice For Paying Tithe Needed Urgently! by Snowwy: 8:13pm On May 31, 2012|
Thank God for the grace to give tithe, offerings, help those around you and see their sunny faces filled with happinness and send donations to people you may never even meet. It's a heart thing.
This continual back and forth on whether or not to give tithe (despite all scripture provided) is just so weak.
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