@babs787,

I decided to bring the one question of your interpretation of "The Spirit" for Muhammad from John's Gospel chapters 14 through 16. Whatever verses you have tried previously to interprete for your assertion that they could be referring to none other than Muhammad, we'd be neatly and carefully examining your claims here - instead of littering several threads with the same things on the subject for which you have not provided answers.

Before I repeat the simple question, I'd like to set Mr olabowale straight on something which touches on Qur'an 21:91; then I'll come back to provide answers to your latest rejoinders on this same issue.

Cheers.

Now @olabowale,

I decided to bring our discussions here so we don't keep littering the Christian threads with the many issues that are just going nowhere. It's not my style to keep up with long-winding posts that only fill pages but not really strike at anything tangible; but I'll oblige you just a few rejoinders to yours in the other thread in order to help you see why I could not buy the excuses for the verse we discussed earlier.

Before I do so, a quick walk through an earlier one in the same aforementioned thread:

olabowale:

I asked if I can connect with your father, I have not heard a clear yes or no! I will want to know your answer. I will privately provide you with my phone, if you wish.

Unfortunately, I could not impose my own decisions by giving a 'yes' or 'no' answer to you before contacting my Dad - it would be the height of tawdriness and a rude presumption on my part to barge in on him like that. However, I got in touch with him about it, but he's got far too much on his hands presently. Perhaps some other time?

olabowale:

Now then, the question of 3 prophets that was to come was asked of John the Baptist, if he was one of them. The answer he gave that that he was not any of the three. But two were mentioned by names to be Elijah, who had came before then, and probably they were expecting himto come back. So the issue of a prophet returning after he had left is not a unique thing restricted only to Jesus, from the Children of Israel religion. The second prophet was Messiah, who later came and started his mission, as Jesus son of Mary. We already agreed that he had came and he will return.

This is where you keep mixing things up. Please open the Bible and read John 1.19-28. In summary, John the Baptist simply answered that he was not the Christ nor "that" Prophet (the latter being in reference to the Prophet like unto Moses in Deuteronomy 18:15 & 18). Of course, that 'Prophet' was none other than Jesus Christ.

As regards the Baptist's answer that he was not Elijah (John 1:21), there was no contradiction there; because the enquirers were looking for a 'literal Elijah'; whereas the context of the prophecy pointed to a forerunner who should annouce the coming of the Messiah: "I will send you Elijah the prophet" (Mal. 4:5). Rather than a literal 'Elijah' to have appeared, the prophecy is explained in Luke 1:17 as one who went in the "spirit and power of Elias". This is why the Lord Jesus Christ said that, "if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come" (Matt. 11:14). Further, He explained that "Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed". What was the result of that? "Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist" (Matt. 17:12-13).

olabowale:

Now the issue of 'that prophet', is yet to be settled, if we examined the question posed to John the baptist. We will know from the question that the 'that prophet' was not identified by a known name. We also can not claim without using the baible that 'that prophet' will be fulfilled by the return of either Elijah of Jesus. So give me the name of 'that prophet', that is if you know it. I want clear and direct response. No beating around the bush. Has 'that prophet' came and be fulfilled according to the question asked John the baptist?

Simple answers:

(a) "That Prophet" was in reference to Deuteronomy 18:15 & 18

(b) The "Prophet" who was to come was none other than Jesus Christ

(c) The prophecy was already fulfilled - by Jesus Christ.

If you have further questions, I'm willing to consider it.

olabowale:

Spirit, as being classified as either good or bad, was used by Jesus in place of prophet. Jesus said in a particular verse of the Bible when he was describing how one would know a true prophet from a fake prophet. He ended the verse by using 'good spirit' for a true prophet and 'bad spirit' for a fake prophet.

Could you be so kind as to post the verses where we can read the claims you made above - especially the one where you purported that Jesus said the highlighted part of your quote.

olabowale:

You should ask your pastor about this, then you may have a different understanding of another verse in the bible where Jesus was talking of the spirit that will come upon he, Jesus leaving the state and the spirit coming to teach/show those who will follwo this spirit things that are necessary, which jesus did not teach before he was raised up!

I suppose that you might be referring to John 16:13 -

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you
into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever
he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things
to come."

You might be interested in reading through the posts where I've already discussed this matter extensively. Please click on the following links especially on "THE Spirit":

Muhammad and "THE Spirit" of God - the "HOLY SPIRIT"
(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-84252.192.html#msg1627300)

References in the hadith to "The Holy Spirit"
(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-84252.192.html#msg1627303)

However, if you were not referring to the above, then I'd be glad to consider whar verses from the Bible you had in mind.

@olabowale,

olabowale:

About the muslim people who demostrated with all kind of bad behavior, even though I disagree with them: I must not fail to point out few things to you:

Have you seen any muslim society insulting Jesus or for that matter, any prophet, in the same wholesale manner that the non muslims insult the last prophet?

Yes, I have seen quite a few of them; but I'll spare you for the moment as it's no use rattling your nerves on that.

olabowale:

Some non muslims will slander him without remorse. The danish guy even made of drawing of him, knowing fully well that there was no picture of him, because camera was discovered later! So the imagery of him and any prophet are all made up from falsehood. I blme the muslims because they demostrate only when muhammad is slandered. It should be the same for each and every prophet!

I simply don't subscribe to your fantastic palliation above! Since you're touching on an issue with global reach, I might as well spend some time on it and once again shed light on what many Muslims conveniently avoid. There are 3 things I should quickly mention here:

(a) There is no reason to take religious protests to such barbaric levels - whether for caricaturing Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, or Adam. Whether we like it or not, there are people who will always want to do some funny and out of place things; and it is not only to religious subjects, but even politicians and other public figures have also been satirized - and for all that, we did not see the same hideous and barbaric response on their behalf.

(b) Even without the help of a camera, it is a known fact that MUSLIM artists have painted prophet Muhammad in realism centuries before our time - but hypocritical as the Muslim world can get, nobody in the Islamic world coughed. Some of those paintings were commissioned, received and treasured by important Muslim figures who valued them as a part of Islamic heritage.

(c) Your attempt to blame the event on the excuse that "camera was discovered later" is a non-issue. The cartoonist was not taking a photograph; he rather sketched images - the very same thing that Muslim artists had done much earlier. We know that Muhammad expressed disdain towards the arts - pictures, music, etc; and he proposed some fallacies about why people should not make pictures. Let me remind you with a summary of some of his disaffection for pictures:


Muhammad on Pictures and Musical Instruments

[list]#1. Those who make pictures will be punished on the Day of Resurrection

# 2. Angels do not enter a house in which there are portrayals of pictures

#3. Makers of pictures are trying to imitate Allah in the act of creation

#4. It will be said to makers of pictures: Breathe soul into what you have created

#5. The most grievously tormented people on the Day of Resurrection would be the painters of pictures

#6. All the painters who make pictures would be in the fire of Hell. The soul will be breathed in every picture prepared by him and it shall punish him in the Hell

#7. Pictures divert Muhammad's prayers ("its pictures are still displayed in front of me during my prayer"

#8. Muhammad cursed the makers of pictures

#9. Makers of pictures are the worst of creatures in the sight of Allah.

#10. The bell is the musical instrument of Satan

#11. For those among Muslims who consider the use of musical instruments as lawful, Muhammad's verdict was:

"Allah will destroy them during the night
and will let the mountain fall on them,
and He will transform the rest of them into monkeys and pigs
and they will remain so till the Day of Resurrection"

References:

Malik Muwatta, Bk. 54, #54.3.8

Sahih Muslim, Bk. 24, #5258, #5268 and #5272

Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 1, Bk. 8, Num. 371

Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 7, Bk. 63, Num. 259.

Sahih Muslim, Bk. 024, #5279

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 69, Number 494v
[/list]

It is fascinating that in spite of all the warnings above, Muslims all over the world have largely thrashed Muhammad's aversion towards the arts! What is more, I'll remind you (in my next post) that the very same things for which Muslims have tried to condemn others, are the very things that the same Muslims enjoy!

@olabowale,

Right, we continue. Muhammad's disdain and threats of severest punishments in HELL and transformation into monkeys and pigs notwithstanding, Muslims have used and still use pictures extensively, as well as enjoy the scintillating sounds of musical instruments. Did Allah destroy them overnight? Where did mountains fall on them? Have they been transformed into monkeys and pigs? (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 69, Number 494v).

Perhaps they soon realized there was nothing at all to worry about with regards to Muhammad's personal rebuff at the arts. The camera may not have been invented in Muhammad's day; but the Muslim world has largely shaken off the personal phobia of the Quraysh prophet and launched into the same thing he said would transform them into monkeys and pigs!

If you're one of those Muslims who has a morbid fear of pictures and melophobia, please stop here and read no further!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Good. Your curiosity helped you cross that line - so you can read on!

This is not an art lesson; but it is imperative to mention here, olabowale, that Muslims themselves have drawn or depicted Muhammad in pictures through Islamic history - but the Muslim world did nothing about them! Many misinformed Muslims today make this dubious claim that prophet Muhammad was never to be drawn or represented in any artistic form; but where were they when pictures of Muhammad were being pianted by MUSLIM artists?!? For example, the Ottoman ruler Murad III (1574-1595) ordered his artists in the Palace to illustrate the epic of Muhammad receiving revelation from angel 'Gabriel' - and no Muslim scholar has dared to raise his eyebrow in protest against that masterpiece! Several of such paintings of Muhammad are depicted and could be viewed by clicking here.

Even in contemporary times, we have seen again and again that Muslims have continued to delve into the arts (painting, sculpturing and music) with fascination. Sample them:

#1. Nasrat Allah Shiraz’s painting of Queen Elizabeth II


#2. "The way to buy kerosene" by Khalid Alkabi


#3. "Licorice seller" by Hussain Alghareeb

(click here for larger picture view)

#4. "Old Photographer" by Asa'ad Abbas

(click here for larger picture view)


Dear Olabowale, you complain comes across to me like someone who really has no regard for reality and seeks only to lay your elderly whimpers for the sake of being heard and nothing more.

@olabowale,

Now I come to another post of yours with some other concerns:

olabowale:

@Pligrim.1: In the quote of Surah Ambiyya, did you notice that Allah, used Plural for Himself and at the same time making it clear, that Jesus and his mother are separate and not inclusive of this plural form used? God said and We made her and her son; please pay attention that HE ALLAH did not say her and My son!

Thats the difference. God said that they will be sign for all peoples: You and all the christians refused to acknowledge Jesus as God have spoken about him, from the Qur'an. Some of you even say that his mother is mother of God, eg the catholics. Then the Jews, who he has a root in their tradition, refused to acknowledged his prophethood. Others did not even thought him to be anything.

I would not like to be tedious to you at all; but even in your assumptions, you have only unwittingly confirmed what I posted earlier: Jesus Christ was for ALL people, instead of merely to the JEWS!! I recknon babs787 is fond of misconstruing his own magical denials even though he cares nothing at all that he often ends up DENYING his own Islamic persuasion in the established works of those more advanced than his yodels and in consensus of the same thing.

Let me help you a little further. All the commentaries on Qur'an سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21 v. 91 do not interpret that verse as pointing to the LAST HOUR!! That is the illiterate arguments of people like Dr. Hilali who so love to muddle up their own utility-grade scholarship and deceive simpletons among Muslims who do not take the time to study their own Qur'an - and for all that, they are wrong. I'm sorry to observe that even you Olabowale do not even sound like a person who has an average grasp of the Qur'an or the Bible. Here's why Babs got it wrong:

Quoting babs787:

babs787:

I have now seen that you have no knowledge of the Quran. Jesus will be the sign of the last hour and when you see him, know that the hour has come. Read the below verse for understanding.

Quran 43 v 61: And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgement): Therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: This is a Straight Way"

It would be an understatement to say that I'm not impressed by this weakly borrowed exculpations. One thing I ask is this: Look at that text (Qur'an, سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21, Verse 91) again: it says:

"And (remember) her who guarded her chastity:
We breathed into her of Our spirit, and
We made her and her son a sign for all peoples"

(1) The verse clearly says that both Mary and Jesus are a sign to ALL peoples; and my question is: does it say that Mary is also a sign of the Hour of Judgement? We know that some Muslims can explain things away with a carelessness and rascality that is not rivalled anywhere in the world; but when we examine the scholarship of the Muslim world more closely, we find them saying a totallly different thing from what Babs tried to wave in our face.

(2) The English tranlsation of the Qur'an offered by Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi renders that verse ( سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21 v. 91) as follows:

"And also recall the woman who guarded her chastity.
We breathed into her of Our spirit,
and made her and her son a sign to THE WHOLE WORLD."

Rather than offer you my own understanding of what this means, I'd rather point to the respected sources of interpretations and commentaries (tafsirs) of the Qur'an. Olabowale, how familiar are you with your own Qur'an? Here are a few of such tafsirs on that very verse:

(a) Tafsir Ibn Kathir:
[وَجَعَلْنَـهَا وَابْنَهَآ ءَايَةً لِّلْعَـلَمِينَ]
"(and We made her and her son a sign for the nations.)
means, evidence that Allah is able to do all things and that
He creates whatever He wills; verily, His command, when
He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, "Be'' -- and it is!
This is like the Ayah:
[وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ ءَايَةً لِّلْنَّاسِ]
(And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind) [19:21]

(b) When we turn to the verse cited (19:21), this is what we read:
The angel said: 'Thus shall it be. Your Lord says: “It is easy for me;
and We shall do so in order to make him a sign for mankind and
a mercy from Us. This has been decreed.”
(Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi tr.)

Now, please pay particular attention to the TWO things in that verse: (i) a sign; (ii) a mercy.

What then are these two things pointing to - is it to the HOUR of Judgement as Babs had supposed? Unfortunately, that is not the case from the same sources again:

(a) Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

[وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ ءَايَةً لِّلْنَّاسِ]
"(And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind)
This means a proof and a sign for mankind of the power
of their Maker and Creator, Who diversified them in their
creation. "

[وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا]
(and a mercy from Us,)
This means, "We will make this boy a mercy from Allah
and a Prophet from among the Prophets. He will call to
the worship of Allah and monotheistic belief in Him.
This is as Allah, the Exalted, said in another Ayah,

[إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلَـئِكَةُ يمَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالاٌّخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ - وَيُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِى الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلاً وَمِنَ الصَّـلِحِينَ ]

((Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam! Verily,
Allah gives you the good news of a Word from Him,
his name will be Al-Masih, `Isa, the son of Maryam,
~~ held in honor in this world and in the Hereafter,
and will be one of those who are near to Allah.
And he will speak to the people, in the cradle and in manhood,
and he will be one of the righteous.) [3:45-46]

I could go on and on to link all the verses that point back to the very verse we have been examining (سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21 v. 91); and it will bring us back to the same inference:

~ that Jesus Christ was said to be a SIGN and a MERCY

~ and He was sent to be a sign to THE WHOLE WORLD

~ He would be held in honour both in this world and in the Hereafter

~ that the verse (سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21 v. 91) was
not to the HOUR of JUDGEMENT only; but also to the PRESENT

~ as such, people were to BELIEVE in HIM - both in the time of:
this world and in the Hereafter

You will see that I am not speculating anything of my own; so I would like you to confirm for yourself what the major and respected TAFSIRS interpret that verse to mean! While on that, the question here is this:

Did those major Muslim commentators and tafsirs say the same thing that Babs has tried to claim at all? I would just want you to be honest with yourself - that's the only thing that needs confirming, and I'm not interested in any caterwauls, please.

Here, @olabowale:

I've tried to help you see with your own eyes yet another tafsir: Tafsir al-Jalalayn (available online) and what they commented on Qur'an 19 v 21. First, let me quote the verse yet again:

The angel said: 'Thus shall it be. Your Lord says: “It is easy for me;
and We shall do so in order to make him a sign for mankind and
a mercy from Us. This has been decreed.”
(Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi tr.)

Now, what does Tafsir al-Jalalayn say on that? Briefly, among other comments:

[list]He said, 'It, the matter in question, of creating a boy from you without a father, shall be so! Your Lord has said: “It is easy for Me, in other words, by Gabriel's breathing into you, by My command, so that you become pregnant with him - since what has been mentioned is meant as a reason, the following [statement] is added as a supplement thereto: and so that We may make him a sign for mankind, of Our power, and a mercy from Us, to whoever believes in him. . . .[/list]

In your honest heart, do you find Babs' assertive denial corroborating the scholarship of your own Muslim mullah?

That is why the garboil that babs787 has been waving so dubiously before readers on the Forum does not interest me in the least. I won't be surprised if he comes back yet again to deny what is so obvious and account your own mullahs as unreliable!

Tata!

@olabowale,

It seems to me that your concerns are often circling around what you feel disinclined to about other religions outside Islam, particularly against Christianity. Despite your lengthy arguments, there are two huge missing links (among others) that can easily be spotted in them:

(a) you don't have a good grasp of Christianity or the Bible

(b) you don't have a balanced view of Islam

These two features can be summarized in just one line: your arguments are derived from personal ideas than from the books (Bible, Qur'an and Hadiths). I'd have preferred you going to the sources directly and taking your answers from them, than mixing up ideas and asking readers to scoot off to Google. Arguing away from established FACTS in the Bible, Qur'an and Hadiths makes the whole discussion endlessly tedious and empty; and I'm not one to keep circling around people's personal inclinations that are far removed from reality.

So please don't be dismayed that I'd rather skip most of your long storylines and deal with the essentials. Since I'd not like to prejudge your motives, it nonetheless is needful for me to point out that yours come across to me the usual style of Muslim apologetics of playing the "wear-out" games with long rejoinders that say absolutely nothing - in the hope that nobody would probably be interested in carefully reading through and making sense of your posts. To avoid coming to this inference, please do oblige us the favour of you going directly to the books in future correspondence; or I'd have no other option that strike through your tales.

Regards.

@babs787,

Now, I can settle down and walk through your rejoinders.

babs787:

You littering the threads with spurious lenthy posts will not help you in any way, why not be given it to me one at a time and we discusss.

That is the classic cry of Muslims who become dumb in the face of weighty evidence that Muhammad is NOT in the Gospels nor even in the entire Bible. I've heard it before, and your repeating it does not mean you have addressed the issues in my rejoinders.

babs787:

Now, I promised to come back when less busy with some issues on Muhammed in which in case, you can never compare him to any being.

Lol. . . The dicussion on finding Muhammad in the Gospel of John has not been a matter of comparing him with any being. Rather, it has been to "prove" beyond all reasonable doubts that Muhammad was called "THE SPIRIT" by Allah anywhere in your QUR'AN or HADITH!! Have you done that?

Since you could not find the verse where Allah called him anything as such, you ran to the politically correct opinions of men who conveniently looked away from Muhammad's acts of terrorism - and yet, none of those opinions you copied and posted interpreted or referred to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT". Are you trying to quickly change the direction of the discussion entirely as usual? Or do you need time to search for more materials where ANY MUSLIM scholar ever referred to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"?!?

Babs, I expected your frantic drama and was well-prepared for it. You haven't responded to my posts; and the opinions of politically correct men do not match Biblical truth, nor do they equate what you have not been able to prove from your Qur'an. Stay on focus and don't run away from the FACTS in my rejoinders.

babs787:

I read all your posts, though same may not have been used for Muhammed but please, it is very glaring that he occupies more that your imagination

You did not read all my posts - you're only excusing it. If you ever read them, at least it would not be such a humongous task for you to provide an answer to this simple question:

WHERE did Allah ever refer to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT" in the QUR'AN?!?

Did you give any answers to that simple question?

babs787:

and I will support my claim with verses below

Quran 68 v 4: and thou standest on an exalted standard of character.

Also

Quran 33 v 32: you have in the messenger of God an exalted examplar, for him who hopes to meet with God and the Last Day.

Hmmm. . . you do well, Babs! Did those verses read the same thing as ALLAH referring to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"??

"Exalted exemplar" does not equate Muhammad to "The Spirit". Was it not the same Muhammad who declared that ALLAH himself said that the Holy Spirit has NO MATCH?!? Has Muhammad suddenly superceded "THE SPIRIT"? See again: Sahih Muslim Book 031, Num. 6081.

babs787:

Now please baby, the above nullifies your alleged claim on his prophethood. Tye above surpasses all the verses you supplied earlier

I hear! So, those two verses you quoted have suddenly surpassed even the verse in the Hadith where ALLAH said that the Holy Spirit has NO MATCH, abi? Don't let Allah hear that from you! Even Muhammad could not claim to be better than Jonah (i.e., Yunus) bin Matta [Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Bk. 55, # 608 and # 624]!!

@babs787,

babs787:

Quran 68 v 4: and thou standest on an exalted standard of character.

Also

Quran 33 v 32: you have in the messenger of God an exalted examplar, for him who hopes to meet with God and the Last Day.

and please provide me similar from the bible where Jesus is being accorded same.

Aiight! I'll give you just 2 from the Bible first, and also give you 2 from the QUR'AN as well. Fair enough?

From the BIBLE:

Acts 4:12
"Neither is there salvation in any other:
for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
whereby we must be saved."

Phillipians 2:9-11
"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him,
and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

From the QUR'AN:

Sura 3:45
"The angels said, "O Mary, GOD gives you good news:
a Word from Him whose name is `The Messiah, Jesus
the son of Mary. He will be prominent in this life
and in the Hereafter, and one of those closest to Me.'"

Jesus is heard in Sura 19:30-31 & 33 saying:
"He said: "I am indeed a servant of God: He hath given me
revelation and made me a prophet, And He hath made me
blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer
and Charity as long as I live . .
So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die,
and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!


Something I should point out to you:

babs787:

Quran 33 v 32: you have in the messenger of God an exalted examplar, for him who hopes to meet with God and the Last Day.

Well, that verse was supposed to be Sura 33:21 and not verse 32. However, what is striking there is that Muhammad was only said to be "a good example" (or, "an excellent exemplar" - Shakir's tr.), which does not distinguish him in superlative terms above other 'prophets' in the Qur'an. Let's see others in the Qur'an who were similarly described:

#1. ABRAHAM (Ibrahim) - Qur'an 16:120:

>> "Surely Ibrahim was an exemplar, obedient to Allah,
upright, and he was not of the polytheists" [Shakir's tr.]

>> "Abraham was indeed an exemplary vanguard in
his submission to GOD, a monotheist who never worshipped idols."
[Khalifa's tr.]

Even your favourite translation Hilali-Khan on the same verse
describes Abraham this way:
"Verily, Ibrahim (Abraham) was an Ummah (a leader having
all the good righteous qualities)"

- - - - - - - - -

#2. JOHN the Baptist (Yah'ya) - Qur'an 3:39:
"While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels
called unto him: "God doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya,
witnessing the truth of a Word from God, and (be besides)
noble, chaste, and a prophet, - of the (goodly) company
of the righteous." [Yusuf Ali's tr.]


The verses you tried to smuggle through the back door did not say anything about Muhammad being called "THE SPIRIT" by anybody - and especially so, not even by ALLAH!! If Muhammad was "a good example" or "an examplar", so was Abraham an "exempary vanguard" [a 'vanguard' is [url=http://]simply defined as[/url] "the position of greatest importance or advancement"]!!

Babs-babs!! Your fabu na first class! Don't try and chase the wind. Here is my question again O!

WHERE did ALLAH ever refer to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"?!?

Have you found the verse yet, . . or have you run out of materials to plagiarize to fill the gaps?

@babs787,

babs787:

This is the continuation of my earlier in which you are trying to muddle up the thread,

I have not attempted to muddle up the thread. The question that has taken us thus far is simply on your fabulous and unsubstantiated assertion that Muhammad is "THE SPIRIT" in John's Gospel chapters 14 to 16. Rather than provide clear answers from your own Qur'an and Hadiths to show that Allah ever called him such, you dramatically produced a backflip away from this very subject! If you think you're excuses are making any impact, you only end up making a circus-show of your rejoinders.

babs787:

1. Equality: the prophet considered all people equal and brothers unto one another and never discriminated when enforcing Divine laws.

Sample Muhammad's discrimination:

[list](1) in inheritance, males have twice as much as females - Qur'an 4:11
(2) peaceful Muslims who do not fight are NOT EQUAL to Jihadists - Qur'an 4:95
(3) Blind men and those who have sight are not treated as equals - Qur'an 6:50
(4) Muslims are to fight Christians and Jews and subjugate them to pay the Muslim impossed tax - Qur'an 9:29
(5) Women were made to feel as if they were equal to dogs and donkeys (Sahih Bukhari Vol. 1, Bk. 9, Num. 498)
(6) The evidence of two women is equal to the witness of one man - and there is a deficiency in her intelligence and her religion (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301)[/list]

babs787:

2. simplicity: he helped in housxe keeping, he permitted people to meet him individually and carefully listened to their problems. when receivng money, he would give the excess separate from his own expenses to the needy. sometimes he even gave his own needed money to the poor and lived in hunger.

Muhammad was not that simple:

[list](Malik Muwatta, Book #41, Hadith #41.1.5)
Malik related to me from Yaqub ibn Zayd ibn Talha from his father Zayd ibn Talha that Abdullah ibn Abi Mulayka informed him that a woman came to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and informed him that she had committed adultery and was pregnant. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said to her, "Go away until you give birth." When she had given birth, she came to him. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said to her, "Go away until you have suckled and weaned the baby." When she had weaned the baby, she came to him. He said, "Go and entrust the baby to someone." She entrusted the baby to someone and then came to him. He gave the order and she was stoned.[/list]

babs787:

3. humility: he was always first in greeting and saluting people, even the children. once, one of his companion asked him permission to prostrate before him, the prophet said "this is the maner of Caesar and Kasra and my position is prophethood and not servitude.

Humility is not measured by greeting people.

babs787:

4. kindness: he never cursed or uttered vain speeches to anybody. he never laughed aloud. He pondered over matters and first listened to the problems of the anguished and protests of the protestorsd and then answered them.He never interrupted people speeches.

Muhammad actually cursed people and encouraged his companions to insult others:

[list]Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 449:
Narrated Al-Bara: The Prophet said to Hassan, "abuse them (with your poems), and Gabriel is with you (i.e, supports you)." (Through another group of sub narrators) Al-Bara bin Azib said, "On the day of Quraiza's (besiege), Allah's Apostle said to Hassan bin Thabit, 'abuse them (with your poems), and Gabriel is with you (i.e. supports you).' "[/list]

[list]Sunan Abudawud, Book #12, Hadith #2247
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: When the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) ordered a man and his wife to invoke curses on each other, he ordered a man to put his hand on his mouth when he came to the fifth utterance, saying that it would be the deciding one.[/list]

[list]Sunan Abudawud[b], Book #20, Hadith #3122
Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: The [b]Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) cursed the wailing woman and the woman who listens to her.[/list]

[list]Sunan Abudawud[b], Book #26, Hadith #3666
Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Allah has cursed wine, its drinker, its server, its seller, its buyer, its presser, the one for whom it is pressed, the one who conveys it, and the one to whom it is conveyed.[/list]

babs787:

5. honesty: years before his call to prophethood, Muhammad conducted business journies for Khadijah who later became his wife. His honesty and proficiency were exposed to Khadijah through those trips. He was well known among the people for his honesty and was called Muhammad al-Ameen, the trustworthy

Muhammad had encouraged one of his companions to LIE in his assassination plot:

[list]Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369 (partly quoted - too long)
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it". . . "Get at him!" So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf."[/list]

@babs787,

babs787:

6. struggle against oppression: during the period of ignorance, he signed a treaty with a group of people who also suffered oppression in order to defend the oppressed and resist the suffered oppressions in order to defend the oppressed and resist the agression of the oppressors.

As Muslims can claim just about anything under "the period of ignorance", then the point above for me is a mute one.

babs787:

7. behaviour to the family: he was usually affectionate and kind. he never treated his wives disrespectfully even though at that time it was a common practise. He was patient when arguing with his wives.

If 'usually affectionate', maybe. But Muhammad showed no affection for the families of the women he murdered. Such was the case in Khaibar, where Muhammad "vanquished them by force" (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 2, Bk. 14, Num. 68). The husband of Safiya bint Huyai bin Akhtab was killed while she was a bride; and upon hearing of her beauty, Muhammad took her to himself (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 143). As consolation to Safiya in her bereavement, this is how Muhammad showed "affection" -

"The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) passed Hamzah
who was killed and disfigured. He said: If Safiyyah were not
grieved, I would have left him until the birds and beasts of prey
would have eaten him, and he would have been resurrected
from their bellies. . ."
(Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 20, Number 3130)

babs787:

8. worship; he reserved one third, half or even two-thirds of the night worshipping. Although he was busy during the day, still he allocated some time to worship Allah.

How does that make him "surpass" any other prophet?

babs787:

9. leadership Qualities: he possessed qualities of leadership, firmness, bravery, initiative, foresightedness, receptiveness to criticism etc.

The Qur'an describes Abraham as "an exemplary vanguard" (Q. 16:120) which far surpassed Muhammad's leadership qualities.

Second, the Hadiths demonstrate that Muhammad was NOT receptive to criticism, because he had instigated an assassination plot against a Jew, Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf, who mocked him (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369). Where was the "receptiveness to criticism" in such kinds of assassination plots, where Muhammad even encouraged the assassin to LIE in order to carry out his dastardly act?

babs787:

10. method of propagation: he was compromising when necessary, he was never rigid in the propagation of Islam. he mainly stressed hope and good news rather than fear and domination

Muhammad was both rigid in propagating Islam (#1), as well as casting terror and domination in the hearts of people (#2) as below"

#1. Qur'an 3:85
"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam,
it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter
he will be one of the losers."

#2. Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Bk. 52, Num. 220:
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been
sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings,
and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts
of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures
of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira
added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people,
are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit
by them).

Babs and Olabowale, if your prophet says that he has been made victorious with TERROR cast into the hearts of people, where do you think the likes of Usama bin Laden derived their model of TERRORISM from? /:

babs787:

11. encouraging education: the prophet encouraged muslims to become educated. he motivated the children of his companions to achieve literacy. he ordered several of his companions to learn the syriac language. He said ' it is obligatory upon all muslims to become educated". he also said " learn sicence everywhere and from everyone even if he is polytheist or hypocrite"

Muhammad was not that condescending to polytheists and hypocrites; so there again is another classic example of doublespeak!

babs787:

12. piety and modesty: it formed his principle.

He was no better than Jonah, Abraham, or John the Babtist.

babs787:

13: decisiveness and resistance

He was no better than Jonah, Abraham, or John the Babtist.

babs787:

14alertness:

He was no better than Jonah, Abraham, or John the Babtist.

babs787:

15; social interaction

He was no better than Jonah, Abraham, or John the Babtist.

babs787:

I would have continue but need your rebuttal to the above and my next post will be on the sayings of muslims, non muslims that made him incomparable

You have said absolutely nothing with regards to defending your assertions that Muhammad was the very One who was referred to as "THE SPIRIT" in the BIBLE!! I've taken care of your convenient cherry-picking qualities that hardly make Muhammad unique; and "the sayings of muslims and non muslims" will not fill the vacuum in the Qur'an or Hadiths for the vacancy of clear verses which were supposed to have referred to Muhammad as "the Spirit". As along as you're caterpaulting away from that core issue, their opinions do not matter to anyone of us here.

@babs787,

babs787:

now please provide rebuttal and instances where any being surpasses Muhammad (saw) in the qualities I listed below:

I have done that already from your own very Qur'an and Hadiths with the examples Jonah (Yinus) bin Matta, Abraham (Ibrahim) and John the Baptist (Yahya). You're expecting me to chase the wind like you and then slowly gravitate away from the queston you have colossally failed to find answers to from your Qur'an and Hadith. Sorry, I told you before and will yet repeat it: your maradona games will never work on pilgrim.1.

Now, dreaming about whether "any being surpasses Muhammad", let me say that of all the so-called qualities you've tried to gerrymander for the Quraish prophet, I just have some news that might help you come out off your dreamworld:

(a) The Qur'an describes Abraham as "an exempary vanguard" [reminder: a 'vanguard' is [url=http://]simply defined as[/url] "the position of greatest importance or advancement"]. That is enough to let you know that there indeed was a being who far surpassed Muhammad in your Qur'an - and Abraham was such an example.

(b) We have also seen earlier that Muhammad himself declared that he was not better than Jonah (Yinus) bin Matta (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Bk. 55, # 608 and # 624). As a matter of fact, we read that: 'The Prophet said, "Whoever says that I am better than Jonah bin Matta, is a liar" ' (Sahih Bukhari Vol. 6, Bk. 60, Num. 128) - I'm sure you don't want to go down in history as someone who fits that description!

(c) We have been one just one subject - WHO is referred to as "THE SPIRIT"?!? I haven't seen you admit your fallacy of trying to force-fit Muhammad into that appellation - not from the QUR'AN, not from the HADITH, and definitely not from the BIBLE! In fact, in Sahih Muslim Book 031, Num. 6081, if Muhammad himself could say that Allah referred to the Holy Spirit who has NO MATCH, what item in your 'list of qualities' was enough to "MATCH" the Spirit of God?

Babs-babs. . . I know: you're that desperate to "prove" that Muhammad was this, that and the other; but you're desperately failing in your efforts. Rather than come back with another colossal failure to argue away from the present concern, please settle down and provide an answer to the same question I've been asking you for days running:

WHERE did ALLAH ever refer to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"?!?

@babs787,

babs787:

@pilgrim

Please let me similar sayings from your side. This are the sayings of people with regards to the prophet you are denying his prophethood, please provide similar posts to the one listed hereunder:

In the first place, the issue is not about denying a "prophethood" that you alleged I was denying - for I've made reference to Muhammad as "the Quraish prophet", NO?

However, it does not matter what the opinions of those men are, in as much as not of them them could claim for Muhammad what Allah has not claimed for him; neither did anyone of them supply the answer that you so desperately failed to find in the Qur'an for Muhammad being called "THE SPIRIT"!!

If indeed Allah never referred to Muhammad as "the SPIRIT", which one of those "politically correct" figures could interpret Muhammad as "the Spirit"?

#1

babs787:

Sedew, a fremnch scholar writes about muhammed. . .

Stanley Lane Poole write in his book . . .

The Indian Historian, M. N Roy . . .

Joseph Hell said . . .

Michale Hart too made a selection . .

John william Draper writes . .

One of the worlds prominent scientist in Anatomy and Entymology, prof Keith Moore expressed . .

George Bernard wrote . .

#2

babs787:

Tor Andrae said . . .

Lamatine wrote that . . .

We also have that of T.V.N Persuade a recipient of J.C. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomist in 1991. He is a professor of Pediatrics and child health and professor of Obstetrics, Gynaecology and reproductive science at the University of Manitobe, Canada.

Also read the saying og Reverend Bosworth Smith an unprejudiced English historian compares Islam with two other great religions, christianity and Judaism. . .

Oga Babs. . you're such a joke!

Just incase I had missed it, could you show me where any one of all those political jokers referred to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"?!?

Of course, Muslims have no regard for objectivity - especially because Muhammad himself did not see anything intellectual to praise among the Arabs of his day. It shouldn't come as a surprise that most of the figures you quoted were errand boys who could simply waste their scholarship on a cheap plate of porridge with their dubious selective reading. If indeed any one of them had an honest heart to look at the Qur'an, Hadith, or other Islamic historic records such as Ibn Ishaq, would they even have muttered the otiose remarks of duplicity that you posted (even with errors)?

Don't melt in your chair yet as I'd like to clean these boys up in a few places, especially the highlighted few in your quote:

(a) People of honest integrity do not splurge their intellect with duplicity - such as M. N Roy, who you creditted as saying that Muhammad was "the greaest of all prophets before or after him". Obviously, the gentleman failed to remember that Muhammad himself declared that he was not better than Jonah bin Matta (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Bk. 55, # 608 and # 624); and anyone saying otherwise to make Muhammad greater was infact a liar (b]Sahih Bukhari[/b] Vol. 6, Bk. 60, Num. 128)!! M. N. Roy probably fits the description of a liar - na Muhammad talk am!

(b) As was said above, not only was M. N. Roy a "slicker" (i.e., 'someone who leads you to believe something that is not true'); others highlighted in your quote were no better. Joseph Hell remarks that Muhammad had brought to fulfillment "spiritual forces that would never have come to birth without him". Please Babs, did you carefully think it through and wonder what "spiritual forces" were not known amongst 'mankind and jinn' before Muhammad's time? What new "spiritual" thing came to "birth" in Muhammad's career?

(c) And what about George Bernard? Perhaps he could be excused on the basis that he was not a religious thinker; but rather, besides being a dramatist, literary critic, a socialist spokesman, the Irishman Shaw was a FREETHINKER! Of course, he could choose the cherry-picking style of not considering the facts of the true Muhammad in the Hadiths and Ibn Ishaq's records; so any bloviates from him could be epsecially selected to smooth over the unblemished facts.

(d) Let's consider another sellout: Reverend Bosworth Smith, whom you quoted as saying: "Muhammad is a threadfold founder of a nation, of an empire, and of a religion. illiterate himself, scarcely able to read or write, he was yet the author of a book which is a poem, a code of laws, a book of common prayer." - And you, Babs, bought into his humongous duplicity?

In the first place, the threfolder founder of nation, empire, and religion did not make Muhammad a magically unique firgure - Moses did far much more than that:

~ he "founded" a nation (Israel which he led out of Egypt)
with great signs and wonders that none of his adversaries were
able to imitate

~ he "founded" an empire that were uniquely known as the
Twelve Tribes of Israel

~ he also was go-between and the reference point of their
religion: Judaism, which was predicated upon the LAW (Torah).

Besides all this, for Reverend Bosworth to have claimed that Muhammad was himself illiterate is the quintessential LIE that Muslims like to believe in order to hide the grey areas of Muhammad's life! Not only so, when he claimed that Muhammad was the author of the book which serves as the "code of laws" (the Qur'an), how many Muslims truly believe that garboil? Have Muslims not always DENIED that Muhammad is the AUTHOR of the Qur'an? And if you as a Muslim deny Muhammad's authorship of the Qur'an, what nonsensical drive were you proposing from Rev. Bosworth? You no dey read wetin you dey cut-and-paste (with your usual re-arrangements) ?

@babs787,

babs787:

One of the worlds prominent scientist in Anatomy and Entymology, prof Keith Moore expressed . .

(e) Rubbish! We all know that Prof. Keith Moore is a fraud and another dubious undertaker in his alleged claim that "almost all of his (Muhammad's) knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later". Certainly, as a prominent scientist in Anatomy and Etymology, many Arabs are easily floored by what a figure in his position would spout out with such rascal vacancy of thought, simply because he was slaving favourably towards Islam.

Let me remind you, Babs, that Keith Moore has been bleached out of his cosmetics on Nairaland! Since then, neither you, nor any other Muslims has gone back to that thread to face up to the dubious weaving of theories for what is touted as "scientific discoveries" in the Qur'an! I'll just quote the relevant section again for you:

Specifically, Moore’s intellectual lapses are these:

1) He liberally translates Arabic into terms that no Arabic speaker would consider justified, but that allows him to pretend the Arabic is closer to truth than it really is. For example, in spite of the fact that almost three dozen translations of “alaqah” found on line never once exclude the word “clot,” Moore writes instead that “The word "alaqah" refers to a leech or bloodsucker.”

2) He completely ignores the timing of phases dictated by the hadith, for to consider them renders even his mistranslation unintelligeble. For example, after mistranslating “alaqah” to mean “a leech or bloodsucker,” he then compares it to the human embryo at 24 days gestation. But 24 days is still firmly within the “nutfah” phase, when the embryo should actually look like a “drop of seed.” He does the same with “mudghah,” comparing it with the embryo at 28 days, still in the “nutfah” phase and only four days later than he had assigned to “alaqah.”

One might speculate on the reasons Dr. Moore might have for this travesty of embryology, but actually the answer is a simple one. He was apparently quite well paid for essentially no real additional work. The textbook he delivered to the Saudi Universities that commissioned the work is titled, "The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology with Islamic Additions." (ISBN 0-7216-6472-5).

Source link on Nairaland: [(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-52865.0.html#msg1116322) - with thanks to KAG ) And why is it that neither you Babs, nor any other Muslim ever went back to that link to discuss Keith's duplicity?


So, Prof. Keith Moore made the assumption for Muhammad that "almost all of his (Muhammad's) knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later", not so? But did he not realize that there were well-established and reknowned scientists in the Arabian peninsula BEFORE Muhammad was born?!?

A few examples of scientists who were well known (and whose works have largely influenced the Arabic world) before Muhammad's time, include the following:

Eratosthenes of Cyrene (276 BC - 194 BC)
- he was a Greek mathematician, a geographer and astronomer

Diophantus (ca. 210-ca. 290)
- Greek mathematician, developed his own algebraic notation and
his works were preserved by the Arabs until later translated into Latin
in the sixteenth century.

Hipparchus, a scientific astronomer: 2nd century BC
An observatory is erected by Hipparchus on the island of Rhodes.
Here, in 129 BC, he completes the first scientific star catalogue.
He lists about 850 stars, placing each in terms of its celestial
latitude and longitude and recording its relative brightness on
a scale of six.

Kiddinu (ca. 4th century)
- a Babylonian astronomer whose work greatly influenced
the describing of irregular heavenly bodies.

Galen of Pergamum (ca. AD 129-ca. 200)
- a reknowned physician, anatomist, physiologist, philosopher,
lexicographer, and a prolific writer; having been tutored by his
father Nicon who was himself a mathematician and astronomer.
Galen is considered the most influential physician after Hippocrates
because of his extensive studies in anatomy and physiology.
The influence of his works in the Arab world is undeniable:

[list]'The translation c.830-870 of 129 works of Galen into Arabic by Hunayn ibn Ishaq and his assistants, and in particular Galen's insistence on a rational systematic approach to medicine, set the template for Islamic medicine, which rapidly spread throughout the Islamic empire. . .Since most of Galen's writings were also translated into Arabic, the Middle East knows and reveres him as "Jalinos"'
Source: Wikipedia on Galen of Pergamum

You can read several more of them by [url=http://www.ics.forth.gr/~vsiris/ancient_greeks/hellinistic_period.html]clicking here[/url], which evidence the fact that there were many reknowned scientists long before Muhammad was born; and there just is no way any two-faced Muslim is going to deny that most of what Muhammad cleverly dribbled into the Qur'an were not known until he brandished his Quraish sword![/list]

Where did Prof. Keith Moore get the idea that almost all of Muhammad's knowledge were not discovered UNTIL many centuries later?!? Oh, we almost forgot: 'He was apparently quite well paid for essentially no real additional work'. Is it therefore any wonder that it is said that No. 6 on the Acknowledgement of Keith's "work" was none other than "Sheik Osamah bin Ladin"?

@babs787,

babs787:

There are still more but let me wait for yur rebuttal

What have you really said in defence of your making out that Muhammad was "The Spirit"? Which one of those bloviates sounded to your scholarship as if they were close to John 14:16-17 where Jesus spoke of "the Spirit"?!?

Of course, there are still more "politically correct" bloviates, and no matter how many thousands of them you may quote to litter the threads with, I guarantee that you will NOT find any one of them referring to Muhammad as "THE HOLY SPIRIT" - NEVER!!

babs787:

Please before I continue Iwould like to ask you a question

What is christianity stand on Spirits and angels?
Is there any similarity or diefference?

Thanks

This essentially proves beyond all doubt that you did NOT read my rejoinders, and as has always been your style, you glossed over them and attempted as many assertive denials as you could muster. Babs, if you actually read my posts, you could not have missed where I precisely addressed this issue:

(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-84252.192.html#msg1627282)

Now, do you care to settle down and stop this frantic drama of yours in desperately scooting off the one question I've been asking again and again? Here as a reminder:


WHERE did ALLAH ever refer to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"?!?

12. piety and modesty: it formed his principle.
13: decisiveness and resistance
14alertness:
15; social interaction

Can someone pls annoint me as a prophet too?

pilgrim.1:

[size=14pt]WHERE[/size] [size=14pt]did ALLAH ever refer to Muhammad as [/size][size=14pt]"THE SPIRIT"?[/size]

@pilgrim

@babs787,

I decided to bring the one question of your interpretation of "The Spirit" for Muhammad from John's Gospel chapters 14 through 16. Whatever verses you have tried previously to interprete for your assertion that they could be referring to none other than Muhammad, we'd be neatly and carefully examining your claims here - instead of littering several threads with the same things on the subject for which you have not provided answers.

I think you are the one beating about the bush trying to put holy spirit where it does not belong. Since you refused to accept my explanation base on same, let me open another door for fresh explanation and I hope your eyes will be opened to the truth.

Now please Jesus mentioned another comforter meaning that he was a comforter and saying another comforter implies that the comforter (another) will come after his demise and would be like him. Jesus weas referring to human spirit and not your holy spirit which you have been trying to fit into that verse.

Put in another way, how many spirits does christian have when we know that the spirit has been in exsistence since the creation of heaven and earth, coming to preach another holy spirit is glaring "fallacy'. The verse is not for the holy spirit and I am asking you to provide your prrof it same referred to Holy Spirit and please when you do that, kindly supply what Holy spirit has been telling you aside what Jesus said.

Before I repeat the simple question, I'd like to set Mr olabowale straight on something which touches on Qur'an 21:91; then I'll come back to provide answers to your latest rejoinders on this same issue.

Okay.

@babs787,

babs787:

I think you are the one beating about the bush trying to put holy spirit where it does not belong.

The simple reason why you're complaining is because you cannot find the verse in the Qur'an nor Hadiths where anyone - including Allah - referred to Muhammad as THE SPIRIT. You have always asserted that the One Jesus spoke about in John's Gospel 14:16-17 was Muhammad; and my simple query was: please show me anywhere anyone has ever referred to Muhammad as the Spirit!!

Rather than simple seek dialogue and provide the verse where you saw what you did not see, you started quoting the politically correct bloviates of men who did not even interpret anything from either the Bible or the Qur'an to make Muhammad the one spoken in John's Gospel as "THE SPIRIT".

Since you could not endure the full appelation of "THE HOLY SPIRIT", I simply left it as "THE SPIRIT" - and instead of complaining that I was putting words that are not there, you should kindly settle down and save your complaints and whinging - so you can simply show me where ALLAH or anybody ever called Muhammad either of these terms:

(a) The Spirit

OR

(b) The HOLY Spirit

Have you found that verse yet, Babs?

Instead of clutters and exculpations, I decided to bring the discussion here, thrash out your excuses, and then repeat my question at the end again:

WHERE did ALLAH ever refer to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"?

It doesn't matter whatever excuses you offer - just answer the Question. QED.

@babs787,

babs787:

Now please Jesus mentioned another comforter meaning that he was a comforter and saying another comforter implies that the comforter (another) will come after his demise and would be like him.

Everyone knows Muhammad was in no way like Jesus Christ. What criteria did you read in the same texts that would make Muhammad fit the NAME and DESCRIPTION of the One Jesus spoke about as the Spirit?

babs787:

Jesus weas referring to human spirit and not your holy spirit which you have been trying to fit into that verse.

Another excuse. Even if you still try to dribble in that idea here, I'll simple remind you that I've dealt with that complaints - and at the end I left you this challenge:

Please show me WHERE Allah or anybody in the Qur'an or Hadiths ever referred to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT".

Where did you answer that question?

babs787:

Put in another way, how many spirits does christian have when we know that the spirit has been in exsistence since the creation of heaven and earth, coming to preach another holy spirit is glaring "fallacy'.

The fallacy is not mine, nor that of any Christian, nor even that of Muhammad. If you're saying that "THE SPIRIT has been in existence since the creation of heaven and earth", does that sound like Muhammad has been in existence since the creation of heaven and earth?

Okay, that is an interesting exculpation that I should add to the stream of questions I'm asking:

#1. WHERE did ALLAH ever refer to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"?

#2. Has Muhammad been in existence since the creatio[/b]n of heaven and earth?

As you continue to excuse the core concerns of the simple thing you should address, so will the queries increase. Thank you.

babs787:

The verse is not for the [b]holy spirit and I am asking you to provide your prrof it same referred to Holy Spirit and please when you do that, kindly supply what Holy spirit has been telling you aside what Jesus said.

I have provided the texts to show that "the Spirit" is none other than the HOLY SPIRIT. Pretending you don't remember having seen it is dubious.

Please deal kindly with the two questions above - repeated here below:

#1. WHERE did ALLAH ever refer to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"?

#2. Has Muhammad been in existence since the [b]creatio[/b]n of heaven and earth?

Cheers.

@babs787,

babs787:

Jesus weas referring to human spirit and not your holy spirit which you have been trying to fit into that verse.

. . The verse is not for the holy spirit and I am asking you to provide your prrof it same referred to Holy Spirit

Thank you.

Like I said, I have already dealt with that concern - and you have asked that same question several times, which should convince any casual observer that you simply are NOT interested in engaging reasonably in a discussion at all. If you are actually interested in discussing, surely Babs, there is no way you could have missed where I REMINDED you that I have dealt with that part of your complaints ALREADY!!!

Here is the link:

(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-84252.192.html#msg1627282)

And before you come back complaining yet again in pretence of not having seen it, let me REPOST it even HERE again O!

---

Your problem has been that just because in some verses you did not find "Holy" preceding "Spirit", you assume therefore that Jesus must have been speaking in reference to a human being ("spirit". Even when others have demonstrated that the descriptions could not be in reference to any prophet, you're systematically twisting and spinning your assumptions just so that you could try to dribble John's Gospel back to the Qur'an to point to Muhammad! You do well.

In John's Gospel as well the other Gospels, the Holy Spirit is spoken of simply as "THE Spirit". In such instances, even when you do not find the prefix "Holy", it nonetheless is clear in those references that the Holy Spirit is meant. A few of those verses:

John 1:32
"And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending
from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him."
(cf. Matt. 3:16 - "he saw the Spirit of God descending
like a dove, and lighting upon him"

John 1:33
"And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water,
the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit
descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which
baptizeth with the Holy Ghost"

Matt. 4:1
"Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be
tempted of the devil."

Luke 4:1 & 14
"And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan,
and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness. . .And Jesus
returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went
out a fame of him through all the region round about."

John 3:5 & 34
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. . . For
he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God:
for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him."

John 15:26
"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you
from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth
from the Father, he shall testify of ME"

The reason why I gave you a good number of verses to verify for yourself is just to show you that the Holy Spirit is also simply called "the Spirit" - and in all the instances where it is used in reference to Him, no objective reader could ever miss the fact that such verses point to the Holy Spirit.

@babs787,

After all your palliations at what you could not address, let me once again remind you of the simple outlines I had hoped you would not pretend that you did not see:

#1. Muhammad is not once referred to as THE SPIRIT in the QUR'AN!! Never!

#2. Muhammad is not once referred to as THE SPIRIT in the HADITH!! Never!

#3. Muhammad is not the One referred to as THE SPIRIT in the BIBLE! Never!

#4. Nobody anywhere referred to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"!! Never!


It doesn't matter whether or not you cannot read of "the HOLY Spirit" in the Bible, Qur'an, or Hadith - so I have left it simply as "The SPIRIT" to make things easier for you.

babs787:

Put in another way, how many spirits does christian have when we know that the spirit has been in exsistence since the creation of heaven and earth, coming to preach another holy spirit is glaring "fallacy'.

Even if you don't understand what is meant by "THE SPIRIT", I am still asking the same questions:

#1. WHERE did ALLAH ever refer to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"?

#2. Has Muhammad been in existence since the creation of heaven and earth?

What is your next excuse for trying to force something for Muhammad that Allah never once called him?

Ciao.

@pilgrim

Like I said in one of my posts, sending m,any posts at time when one has not not yet been answered will not help you and it shows that you are trying a sort of cover-up. Please give it to me one at a time we iron it out and not posting many posts at a time.

If you are ready for that, I am equally ready.

@pilgrim

It would be an understatement to say that I'm not impressed by this weakly borrowed exculpations. One thing I ask is this: Look at that text (Qur'an, سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21, Verse 91) again: it says:

"And (remember) her who guarded her chastity:
We breathed into her of Our spirit, and
We made her and her son a sign for all peoples"

(1) The verse clearly says that both Mary and Jesus are a sign to ALL peoples; and my question is: does it say that Mary is also a sign of the Hour of Judgement? We know that some Muslims can explain things away with a carelessness and rascality that is not rivalled anywhere in the world; but when we examine the scholarship of the Muslim world more closely, we find them saying a totallly different thing from what Babs tried to wave in our face.

(2) The English tranlsation of the Qur'an offered by Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi renders that verse ( سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21 v. 91) as follows:

"And also recall the woman who guarded her chastity.
We breathed into her of Our spirit,
and made her and her son a sign to THE WHOLE WORLD."

Rather than offer you my own understanding of what this means, I'd rather point to the respected sources of interpretations and commentaries (tafsirs) of the Qur'an. Olabowale, how familiar are you with your own Qur'an? Here are a few of such tafsirs on that very verse:

(a) Tafsir Ibn Kathir:
[وَجَعَلْنَـهَا وَابْنَهَآ ءَايَةً لِّلْعَـلَمِينَ]
"(and We made her and her son a sign for the nations.)
means, evidence that Allah is able to do all things and that
He creates whatever He wills; verily, His command, when
He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, "Be'' -- and it is!
This is like the Ayah:
[وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ ءَايَةً لِّلْنَّاسِ]
(And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind) [19:21]

(b) When we turn to the verse cited (19:21), this is what we read:
The angel said: 'Thus shall it be. Your Lord says: “It is easy for me;
and We shall do so in order to make him a sign for mankind and
a mercy from Us. This has been decreed.”
(Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi tr.)

Now, please pay particular attention to the TWO things in that verse: (i) a sign; (ii) a mercy.

What then are these two things pointing to - is it to the HOUR of Judgement as Babs had supposed? Unfortunately, that is not the case from the same sources again:

(a) Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

[وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ ءَايَةً لِّلْنَّاسِ]
"(And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind)
This means a proof and a sign for mankind of the power
of their Maker and Creator, Who diversified them in their
creation. "

[وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا]
(and a mercy from Us,)
This means, "We will make this boy a mercy from Allah
and a Prophet from among the Prophets. He will call to
the worship of Allah and monotheistic belief in Him.
This is as Allah, the Exalted, said in another Ayah,

[إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلَـئِكَةُ يمَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالاٌّخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ - وَيُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِى الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلاً وَمِنَ الصَّـلِحِينَ ]

((Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam! Verily,
Allah gives you the good news of a Word from Him,
his name will be Al-Masih, `Isa, the son of Maryam,
~~ held in honor in this world and in the Hereafter,
and will be one of those who are near to Allah.
And he will speak to the people, in the cradle and in manhood,
and he will be one of the righteous.) [3:45-46]

I could go on and on to link all the verses that point back to the very verse we have been examining (سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21 v. 91); and it will bring us back to the same inference:

~ that Jesus Christ was said to be a SIGN and a MERCY

~ and He was sent to be a sign to THE WHOLE WORLD

~ He would be held in honour both in this world and in the Hereafter

~ that the verse (سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21 v. 91) was
not to the HOUR of JUDGEMENT only; but also to the PRESENT

~ as such, people were to BELIEVE in HIM - both in the time of:
this world and in the Hereafter.

i will answer your claim below.

You will see that I am not speculating anything of my own; so I would like you to confirm for yourself what the major and respected TAFSIRS interpret that verse to mean! While on that, the question here is this:

Okay.

Did those major Muslim commentators and tafsirs say the same thing that Babs has tried to claim at all? I would just want you to be honest with yourself - that's the only thing that needs confirming, and I'm not interested in any caterwauls, please.

What has Babs been trying to claim?.


I said that I would re-visit your questions and here I go:

that Jesus Christ was said to be a SIGN and a MERCY

The verses say that Jesus was sent as sign for mankind, the verses do not say that Jesus was sent to preach to ALL OF MANKIND. The verse does not say that Jesus was sent as a prophet for ALL OF MANKIND.

Yes, does it say his mission was to preach to the whole world? No, it does not say that, Jesus was sign unto man, not a prophet for all of man. There is a difference in being a sign unto all of men, and being sent for all of mankind to preach to them.

Jesus was a sign for man, not a prophet for all of man. Jesus was sent to preach to a specific people and not to all.

Read below to see whether he was sent to Israel alone or not:

Quran 3v49: and (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel….

Quran 43v59: he (Jesus) was naught but a servant on whom we bestowed favour and we made him an example for the children of Israel.

Quran 3v61: but whoever dispute with you in this matter concerning Jesus after what has come to you of knowledge, then say : come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

Now let us see some verses to know if Muhammad was a mercy to ALL MANKIND OR NOT>

Quran 21v107: and we have not sent you but as a[b] mercy[/b] to the world (all creatures, mankind, jinn, fish, insects, trees, animals etc)

Quran 34v28: and we have not sent you but to men as a bearer of good news and as a saviour, but most men do not now.

Quran 46v9: say I (Muhammad (PBUH) am not the first of the apostles and I do not follow anything but that which is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain Warner.

Quran 21v1: blessed is he (Allah) who sent down the Quran upon his servant (Muhammad PBUH) that he may be a Warner to the nations.

Quran 3v132: and obey Allah and his apostle, that you may be shown mercy.


From Tafsir ibn kathir:

Allah forbids the People of the Scriptures from going to extremes in religion, which is a common trait of theirs, especially among the Christians. The Christians exaggerated over `Isa until they elevated him above the grade that Allah gave him. They elevated him from the rank of prophethood to being a god, whom they worshipped just as they worshipped Allah. They exaggerated even more in the case of those who they claim were his followers, claiming that they were inspired, thus following every word they uttered whether true or false, be it guidance or misguidance, truth or lies. This is why Allah said,


(They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah.)

Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn `Abbas said that `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said,

(Do not unduly praise me like the Christians exaggerated over `Isa, son of Maryam. Verily, I am only a servant, so say, `Allah's servant and His Messenger.') This is the wording of Al-Bukhari. Imam Ahmad recorded that Anas bin Malik said that a man once said, "O Muhammad! You are our master and the son of our master, our most righteous person and the son of our most righteous person, ''

The Messenger of Allah said,

(O people! Say what you have to say, but do not allow Shaytan to trick you. I am Muhammad bin `Abdullah, Allah's servant and Messenger. By Allah! I do not like that you elevate me above the rank that Allah has granted me.)


I wonder why christians ignore verses from the Quran that speaks on issue bothering them even when they are glaring truths.

(Al-Masih `Isa, son of Maryam, was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from [created by] Him `Isa is only one of Allah's servants and one of His creatures. Allah said to him, `Be', and he was, and He sent him as a Messenger. `Isa was a word from Allah that He bestowed on Maryam, meaning He created him with the word `Be' that He sent with Jibril to Maryam. Jibril blew the life of `Isa into Maryam by Allah's leave, and `Isa came to existence as a result.

Also:

(Al-Masih [`Isa], son of Maryam, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam] was a Siddiqah. They both ate food.) And Allah said,


(Verily, the likeness of `Isa before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be! Ü and he was.)

(He [`Isa] was not more than a servant. We granted Our favor to him.)


From Tafsir Ibn Kathir on this:

and We made him an example for the Children of Israel.) means, `a sign, proof and evidence of Our power to do whatever We will.'

~ and He was sent to be a sign to THE WHOLE WORLD

He was sent as a sign but not SENT TO THE WHOLE WORLD.

You have to look at these please:

mattew 1v21: and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shall call his name Jesus for he shall save his people from their sins.

Who are Jesus people? The Jews are the people of Jesus because he was sent to them alone.

John 4v21-22: Jesus said unto her, woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem worship the father, ye worship ye know not what we know. We know we worship, for SALVATION is of the JEWS.

Jesus said that salvation is for the Jews because he came for Jews alone.

Mathew 15v24-26: but he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel……,

Here Jesus said, he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel although there are other countries apart from Israel but was sent only to them.

Mathew 10v5-6: these twelve, Jesus sent them forth and commanded them saying, go not on the way of the gentiles and unto any city of the Samaritans, enter ye not, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Math 19v28: and Jesus said unto them, verily I say unto you, that which have followed me, in the regeneration when the son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribe of Israel.

Jesus said that he and his disciples will judge the twelve tribes because he was sent only to Israel.

Jesus, when he assigned the work, directed the twelve disciples each to a tribe in Israel and not to go beyond Israel as in Matt 10v5-6 because his assignment is limited, he was sent to only Jews

Also from the Holy Quran

Quran 3v49: and (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel….

Quran 43v59: he (Jesus) was naught but a servant on whom we bestowed favour and we made him an example for the children of Israel.

Quran 3v61: but whoever dispute with you in this matter concerning Jesus after what has come to you of knowledge, then say : come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

~ He would be held in honour both in this world and in the Hereafter

I laugh when christians ignore part of the quran that speaks truth but always quick at taking some verses without reading through the whole verses to grab the meaning.

Muhammed too was honoured in this world and would be done same too in the Hereafter when no OTHER PROPHETS even Jesus will be able to intercede on man's behalf but only him. Now let us see verses where same is used for John the Baptist:


Quran 19 v 12-15: (And it was said unto his son): O John! Hold fast the Scripture. And we gave him wisdom when a childAnd piety (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity: He was devout, and kind to his parents, and he was not overbearing or rebellious.

So Peace on him the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life (again)!

~ that the verse (سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21 v. 91) was
not to the HOUR of JUDGEMENT only; but also to the PRESENT

Read explanations up to avoid repetition.

~ as such, people were to BELIEVE in HIM - both in the time of:
this world and in the Hereafter

I tire for you, so you dont know that the verse in question is making reference to you christians, oya read:


Quran 4 v 157:
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not


Se u dey see?


v158:
YUSUFALI: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise

v 159:
YUSUFALI: And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them


Did you see that dear?


Oya read again:

quran 4 v 171:
YUSUFALI: O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

v 172:
YUSUFALI: Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant,He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).

Self explanatory huh.

@pilgrim

@babs787,


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
6. struggle against oppression: during the period of ignorance, he signed a treaty with a group of people who also suffered oppression in order to defend the oppressed and resist the suffered oppressions in order to defend the oppressed and resist the agression of the oppressors.

As Muslims can claim just about anything under "the period of ignorance", then the point above for me is a mute one.


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
7. behaviour to the family: he was usually affectionate and kind. he never treated his wives disrespectfully even though at that time it was a common practise. He was patient when arguing with his wives.

If 'usually affectionate', maybe. But Muhammad showed no affection for the families of the women he murdered. Such was the case in Khaibar, where Muhammad "vanquished them by force" (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 2, Bk. 14, Num. 68). The husband of Safiya bint Huyai bin Akhtab was killed while she was a bride; and upon hearing of her beauty, Muhammad took her to himself (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 143). As consolation to Safiya in her bereavement, this is how Muhammad showed "affection" -

"The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) passed Hamzah
who was killed and disfigured. He said: If Safiyyah were not
grieved, I would have left him until the birds and beasts of prey
would have eaten him, and he would have been resurrected
from their bellies. . ."
(Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 20, Number 3130)


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
8. worship; he reserved one third, half or even two-thirds of the night worshipping. Although he was busy during the day, still he allocated some time to worship Allah.

How does that make him "surpass" any other prophet?


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
9. leadership Qualities: he possessed qualities of leadership, firmness, bravery, initiative, foresightedness, receptiveness to criticism etc.

The Qur'an describes Abraham as "an exemplary vanguard" (Q. 16:120) which far surpassed Muhammad's leadership qualities.

Second, the Hadiths demonstrate that Muhammad was NOT receptive to criticism, because he had instigated an assassination plot against a Jew, Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf, who mocked him (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369). Where was the "receptiveness to criticism" in such kinds of assassination plots, where Muhammad even encouraged the assassin to LIE in order to carry out his dastardly act?


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
10. method of propagation: he was compromising when necessary, he was never rigid in the propagation of Islam. he mainly stressed hope and good news rather than fear and domination

Muhammad was both rigid in propagating Islam (#1), as well as casting terror and domination in the hearts of people (#2) as below"

#1. Qur'an 3:85
"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam,
it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter
he will be one of the losers."

#2. Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Bk. 52, Num. 220:
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been
sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings,
and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts
of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures
of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira
added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people,
are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit
by them).

Babs and Olabowale, if your prophet says that he has been made victorious with TERROR cast into the hearts of people, where do you think the likes of Usama bin Laden derived their model of TERRORISM from? /:


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
11. encouraging education: the prophet encouraged muslims to become educated. he motivated the children of his companions to achieve literacy. he ordered several of his companions to learn the syriac language. He said ' it is obligatory upon all muslims to become educated". he also said " learn sicence everywhere and from everyone even if he is polytheist or hypocrite"

Muhammad was not that condescending to polytheists and hypocrites; so there again is another classic example of doublespeak!


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
12. piety and modesty: it formed his principle.

He was no better than Jonah, Abraham, or John the Babtist.


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
13: decisiveness and resistance

He was no better than Jonah, Abraham, or John the Babtist.


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
14alertness:

He was no better than Jonah, Abraham, or John the Babtist.


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
15; social interaction

He was no better than Jonah, Abraham, or John the Babtist.


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
I would have continue but need your rebuttal to the above and my next post will be on the sayings of muslims, non muslims that made him incomparable

You have said absolutely nothing with regards to defending your assertions that Muhammad was the very One who was referred to as "THE SPIRIT" in the BIBLE!! I've taken care of your convenient cherry-picking qualities that hardly make Muhammad unique; and "the sayings of muslims and non muslims" will not fill the vacuum in the Qur'an or Hadiths for the vacancy of clear verses which were supposed to have referred to Muhammad as "the Spirit". As along as you're caterpaulting away from that core issue, their opinions do not matter to anyone of us here.

I thought you wanted to provide rebuttal based on the position of Jesus to my post particularly on the exemplary character but unfortunately you only provided same with regards to other prophets. We have known christians to always shift post to other issues that are not even necessary. We are here discussing Muhammad and please provide same where we have stories of Jesus as being used for Muhammad just like I provided up. Can I have same referring to Jesus in the bible with regards to exemplary character.

@pilgrim

(c) We have been one just one subject - WHO is referred to as "THE SPIRIT"?!? I haven't seen you admit your fallacy of trying to force-fit Muhammad into that appellation - not from the QUR'AN, not from the HADITH, and definitely not from the BIBLE! In fact, in Sahih Muslim Book 031, Num. 6081, if Muhammad himself could say that Allah referred to the Holy Spirit who has NO MATCH, what item in your 'list of qualities' was enough to "MATCH" the Spirit of God?

I will still help you if you are feigning ignorance. Now questions for you

1. How could another comforter like Jesus be Holy spirit when Jesus was a human comforter.?

2. Since you claimed that the verse referred to Holy spirit, has it not been in existence and why the coming of another Holy spirit, how many spirit are we having.

3. What news things apart what Jesus told you has the spirit been telling you. (Note; the verse said speak, so what new things has it been telling you)

Babs-babs. . . I know: you're that desperate to "prove" that Muhammad was this, that and the other; but you're desperately failing in your efforts. Rather than come back with another colossal failure to argue away from the present concern, please settle down and provide an answer to the same question I've been asking you for days running:

WHERE did ALLAH ever refer to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"?!?

You are trying to avoid my question, but too bad, could the spirit mentioned in that verse be Holy spirit forgetting the word 'another'. Does the holy spirit speak and what has the sp[irit been declaring to you with regards to Jesus. What new things has it been teling you apart from what Jesus told you before his demise?

@pilgrim


.

The simple reason why you're complaining is because you cannot find the verse in the Qur'an nor Hadiths where anyone - including Allah - referred to Muhammad as THE SPIRIT. You have always asserted that the One Jesus spoke about in John's Gospel 14:16-17 was Muhammad; and my simple query was: please show me anywhere anyone has ever referred to Muhammad as the Spirit!!

I have asked you questions and I will ask you again, has the holy spirit not been in existence, how many spirit are having since you claimed that another comforter would be holy spirit?

How does your explanation fits into the word "another comforter" .how does another comforter refers to Holy spirit when Jesus was a human comforter?

Rather than simple seek dialogue and provide the verse where you saw what you did not see, you started quoting the politically correct bloviates of men who did not even interpret anything from either the Bible or the Qur'an to make Muhammad the one spoken in John's Gospel as "THE SPIRIT".

I have provided enopufgh rebuttal and even gave you the meaning of 'inspire' and 'speak' which you denied and you have failed to answer my questions as to the posistion of holy spirit in that verses. Please what new things has it been telling you apart from what Jesus did?

Since you could not endure the full appelation of "THE HOLY SPIRIT", I simply left it as "THE SPIRIT" - and instead of complaining that I was putting words that are not there, you should kindly settle down and save your complaints and whinging - so you can simply show me where ALLAH or anybody ever called Muhammad either of these terms:

See Maradona calling another person same.

 

(a) The Spirit

     OR

  (b) The HOLY Spirit

Have you found that verse yet, Babs?

Instead of clutters and exculpations, I decided to bring the discussion here, thrash out your excuses, and then repeat my question at the end again:

WHERE did ALLAH ever refer to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"?

It doesn't matter whatever excuses you offer - just answer the Question. QED

Please how could holy spirit be another comforter when Jesus, a comforter is a human comforter. Is there any relationship between human spirit and holy spirit? Jesus said another comforter which means that the comforter would be like him, so tell me how does that referred to Holy spirit?

@babs787,

Your shameless duplicity does not interest me in the least. You give me a STRONGER reason to have left Islam forever with the LIES Muslims often parade.

Until you find me the direct verses in the Qur'an or Hadith where ALLAH or anybody EVER referred to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT", you're simply wasting your time and demonstrating more than anything that Islam is a FRAUD!!

I will apologise to you, swallow my pride, and reconsider coming back to Islam IF and only IF you can show the direct Quotes from the QURAN or HADITH to answer these two questions:

#1. WHERE did ALLAH ever refer to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"?

#2. Has Muhammad been in existence since the creation of heaven and earth?


If you can't simply answer those two questions, your otiose noise and bloviates will continue to give me stronger reasons why I should stay out of YOUR FRAUD and out of Islam FOREVER!!

Don't feed me your lies - tell the truth and save your shame!

Tata!

Muhammad was ever referred to as a Spirit?


Wetin this Islamist no go propagate?

@Pligrim.1: From your quote of Surah 19, verses 30 and 31 and then 33 of the Glorious Qur'an, we read that Jesus described himself, as God has commanded him to: Servant of God, Prophet of God, required to be charitable, prayerful. Further he declared that the days of his birth, death and ressurection (raised up, again!), will be peaceful.

I am thinking that you want us to investigate the last day as denoted to be raised up (again), right? I will then take it that you agree with every other description of Jesus (Isa Bin mariam (AS)), in that verse. If this is so, we therefore know that Jesus was a servant of God and never more than that in stature in the presence of his Master! The other descriptions are clear, therefore. I do not have to go hard into each.

Please, tell me, pligrim.1, do you believe in the day of ressurection of all beings, mankind (human being part of this beings)? How do you think it is going to happen; are the dead going to be raised up from their graves, without any remaining, from Adam (AS), to the last human? If your answer is yes, then I summit to you, that the death of Jesus has not happened. It is still in the future, during his second coming. Jesus will live out what remains of his life, as a creation of God. He will die like everyone before him. All mankind will die off. Then all will be hurried out of the grave. That will include Jesus and all the other prophets.  This is what is meant by the day i am raised up! For jesus and al the other prophets, the same peacefulness will be experienced by them. Whereas the rest of mankind will experience some form of difficulties, ranging from the least to the hardest, based on the work that each had sent forth! In other words their righteousness in belief and doing good!

Please refer to the same Qur'an that says clearly that jesus son of mary, was not crucified nor killed, but made to look so. God is capable of doing all things. It is He Who created jesus in the first place and it was easy for Him to safe him from his enemies. It will be easy for Him to recreate him. Did you notice that throughout the Qur'an, God never used 'father or son', for Jesus when He describes him?

I will research the Bible before i respond to you about the 'Spirit, holy spirit',

@olabowale,

Your concerns have been addressed, and I'm not interested in the usual Muslim games of pretending to not have seen them before coming on board to endlessly repeat your irrelevant questions.

please don't clutter this thread with otiose remarks and complaints. I've dealt with your concerns and those of babs787. There are just two simple questions now left for both of you to answer in very simple manner before we progress anything:

pilgrim.1:


#1. WHERE did ALLAH ever refer to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"?

#2. Has Muhammad been in existence since the creation of heaven and earth?

Please deal with them before you can interest me with anything further.

Thank you.

@olabowale,

Even if I just want to while away time and entertain your curiosity, let me point out a few things in yours:

olabowale:

@Pligrim.1: From your quote of Surah 19, verses 30 and 31 and then 33 of the Glorious Qur'an, we read that Jesus described himself, as God has commanded him to: Servant of God, Prophet of God, required to be charitable, prayerful. Further he declared that the days of his birth, death and ressurection (raised up, again!), will be peaceful.

If you're even going to invite a discussion at all from me, then both of you would have to be consistent. As you can see, the inconsistency that has been hugely played out in Muslim posts is what is putting me off and giving me very strong reasons why I cannot trust anything in Islam.

On the one hand, some Muslims mention that Jesus is a PROPHET; on the other hand, when you talk about His Second Coming, then Muslims begin to deny that He is a "PROPHET". I've seen this one too many times. And my query is this: if the QUR'AN declares Him to be a PROPHET in view of the Second Coming, why are Muslims at the same time controverting what they say they believe?

It is convenient for Muslims to claim that those verses in the Qur'an declare Jesus to be a Prophet; but when you begin to remind them that the same verses have been interpreted by Muslim scholars to be pertaining to the end and the Judgement, then the same Muslims deny that Jesus is coming back as a PROPHET!! What is the meaning of this doublespeak?

olabowale:

I am thinking that you want us to investigate the last day as denoted to be raised up (again), right? I will then take it that you agree with every other description of Jesus (Isa Bin mariam (AS)), in that verse. If this is so, we therefore know that Jesus was a servant of God and never more than that in stature in the presence of his Master! The other descriptions are clear, therefore. I do not have to go hard into each.

Please, don't scoot away from the core issue. My question was not about investigating the last day - that was a clever switch you attempted to divert the real issue. In the other thread, I merely pointed out from your Qur'an that Jesus and His mother were said by ALLAH to be a sign and mercy to the WHOLE WORLD. You guys tried to deny that and instead have tried to argue away from that particular thing to begin talking about what was not our focus.

olabowale:

Please, tell me, pligrim.1, do you believe in the day of ressurection of all beings, mankind (human being part of this beings)? How do you think it is going to happen; are the dead going to be raised up from their graves, without any remaining, from Adam (AS), to the last human? If your answer is yes, then I summit to you, that the death of Jesus has not happened.

Was that a joke or what? If I did not believe in the Resurrection, would I not have had a strong debate to prove it otherwise?

Even funnier is your assumption that the death of Jesus has not happened. If that is the case, then please think twice: there would be no demontration of the Reusrrection hope for anybody in Islam!!

We know that in Islam, the comon ideology that dominates others is that the "last hour" rests hugely on the second coming of Jesus Christ. Why does it have to be so, if Muhammad was supposed to be the greatest of all Prophets and the most honourable? Have you given it a moment's thought that Muhammad does not guarantee you the Resurrection? Rather, he pointed to Jesus Christ as the one who ushers in that very august event!!

olabowale:

It is still in the future, during his second coming. Jesus will live out what remains of his life, as a creation of God.

Rubbish. That is simply a fantastic fabrication that you cannot sanely defend. How many years was Muhammad promised to live before he died from the pains of his having been poisoned? He did not tell you anything about - but suddenly he re-engineers a story about Jesus coming back to live "what remains" of his life as a creature - and that is the huge thing that immediately renders non-Islamic faiths as discredited in your eyes?

Sorry, when you engage in any discussion with me, don't submit what you guys have not carefully reasoned out. I know that Muhammad said that women are not intelligent and there is a deficiency in a woman's religion. I hear. For all of that bl;oviate, he was WRONG!! God blessed women with intelligence - and dear Olabowale, Muhammad's words about our intelligence do not stand.

olabowale:

He will die like everyone before him. All mankind will die off. Then all will be hurried out of the grave. That will include Jesus and all the other prophets. This is what is meant by the day i am raised up! For jesus and al the other prophets, the same peacefulness will be experienced by them. Whereas the rest of mankind will experience some form of difficulties, ranging from the least to the hardest, based on the work that each had sent forth! In other words their righteousness in belief and doing good!

I respect whatever you want to believe; but if He did not die previously, what is the reason for Him to come back in future to die?!?

We are not told that Elijah died - so, is he also coming back to live the remaining part of his life and then die also like every other person?

olabowale:

Please refer to the same Qur'an that says clearly that jesus son of mary, was not crucified nor killed, but made to look so.

That was Muhammad's personal thought, and it does not mean that he was correct. Muslims have picked on that denial and sculpted out so many silly debates on it. I asked only one question: WHO was put on that Cross if it was not Jesus - and until today no Muslim has given more a sensible answer!! I have been asking that question right from before I became a Christian - I was told many times by angry Muslims to shut up and "not question Allah!" Now you have brougt up the same thing - I don't buy that excuse.

You would have to carefully reason out two things:

1. WHO was on that Cross

2. WHY was Jesus then not on that Cross if He must come back and die?

olabowale:

God is capable of doing all things. It is He Who created jesus in the first place and it was easy for Him to safe him from his enemies. It will be easy for Him to recreate him. Did you notice that throughout the Qur'an, God never used 'father or son', for Jesus when He describes him?

Dear Olabowale, if you are serious that you believe whatever you post, can I ask you this:

If God is able to do ALL Things (I believe He is more than ABLE), then WHY is the DEATH and RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ IMPOSSIBLE?!?!?

olabowale:

I will research the Bible before i respond to you about the 'Spirit, holy spirit',

Please do - and do mind the questions I asked.

Cheers.

@olabowale,

I would always come back to remind you guys of the main concerns of the TOPIC of this thread; and after having entertained you guys with your inconsistencies, here again is a reminder:

pilgrim.1:


#1. WHERE did ALLAH ever refer to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"?

#2. Has Muhammad been in existence since the creation of heaven and earth?

Please deal with them before you can interest me with anything further.

Thank you.