From the massive and expensive structures of churches these days, one seem to wonder, were did all that money come from?

If we stop dropping of offerings and tithes in churches, can the church run its affairs? That is every individual or company willing to give monies should go to orphanages direct to give them this assistance because i think they are the ones that need it most. And you will get more blessings than if dropped in the church. Most churches simply use these monies to run both church and personal affairs.

HOL YA WALLET 'TIGHT' O!

Callotti: HOL YA WALLET 'TIGHT' O!

@Topic 'NO THEY CANT'

tithes and offering are Gods commandment and if dont do it God blessing might elude you

No, they cannot. That is what all the faithfuls are there for. The sustenance of the church must be done through exploiting and extorting the sheeple via the bible and the Jesus logo.

Bello555: From the massive and expensive structures of churches these days, one seem to wonder, were did all that money come from?

If we stop dropping of offerings and tights in churches, can the church run its affairs? That is every individual or company willing to give monies should go to orphanages direct to give them this assistance because i think they are the ones that need it most. And you will get more blessings than if dropped in the church. Most churches simply use these monies to run both church and personal affairs.

Ephesians 1:17-23
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: Ephesians 1:18
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

supewisdom: tithes and offering are Gods commandment and if dont do it God blessing might elude you

God never commanded christians to give tithes, yes offerings is required but tithes in the church today is a man made doctrine derived from twisting old obsolete old testament scriptures.

Pastor Kun:

God never commanded christians to give tithes, yes offerings is required but tithes in the church today is a man made doctrine derived from twisting old obsolete old testament scriptures.

What do you mean by twisting old obsolete old testament scripture?

No. How is the pastor going to get paid? How are the services going to be funded? Who going to pay for the building upkeep. Tithe is what make the church go round.

mkmyers45: What do you mean by twisting old obsolete old testament scripture?

For instance tithes of agricultural produce in the old testament was twisted to mean money in modern times even though money existed in biblical times and it wasn't acceptable as tithes. This is apart from the fact that tithing was directed strictly at the Jews and it never formed part of new testament christian practise as established by the apostles who were mandated by Jesus to establish the gospel. Infact tithing did not find it's way into the church the year 586AD when the catholic church was seeking to raise more revenue for it's programmes. Even then it was still tithe of agricultural produce. Monetary tithes started in the church as recently as the nineteenth century when greed and pentecostalism was introduced to christianity.

Pastor Kun:

For instance tithes of agricultural produce in the old testament was twisted to mean money in modern times even though money existed in biblical times and it wasn't acceptable as tithes. This is apart from the fact that tithing was directed strictly at the Jews and it never formed part of new testament christian practise as established by the apostles who were mandated by Jesus to establish the gospel. Infact tithing did not find it's way into the church the year 586AD when the catholic church was seeking to raise more revenue for it's programmes. Even then it was still tithe of agricultural produce. Monetary tithes started in the church as recently as the nineteenth century when greed and pentecostalism was introduced to christianity.

hmmm...you are right

Why shud u say pastors shud be paid with offering or tithe money? They ar surpose to preach the word of God voluntarily.

Infact, churches are in some kind of silent competition.
*Some want their structures to beat others,
*some use very pretty girls in their choir and ushers to attract pple to the church,
*ladies are allowed to wear wigs, weavons and leave them exposed in the church and more over some may be wearing a hair do of over N100,000 all in the name of coming to curch

pastors dont caution these wrong things in other to have more offering in the box.

Alot wrongs go on in the church that i even wonder if there is any blessings or even Gods presence in the church

We have records of tithing of all and all one possesses in the bible actually.


However, since offering is required today it will be nice to get a quote or quotes in the Old testament in which money was used as offering (rather than agric produce) to worship the Lord and thank Him.


Anyone?

Luke 21: 1-4

And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury. And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

And yes even though in Luke (and Mark as well), it was an Old Testament event.

Bello555: From the massive and expensive structures of churches these days, one seem to wonder, were did all that money come from?

If we stop dropping of offerings and tights in churches, can the church run its affairs? That is every individual or company willing to give monies should go to orphanages direct to give them this assistance because i think they are the ones that need it most. And you will get more blessings than if dropped in the church. Most churches simply use these monies to run both church and personal affairs.

I'm not a church attendant but from a neutral standpoint I doubt that donation or offering has to be solely monetary, services can be offered also. However if the church received no assistance whatsoever be it monetary or otherwise then most likely such a church or any other edifice wouldn't stand. I've seen churches with members below a double digit population and they have survived due to the services each member has offered which wasn't necessarily monetary but I gather that "money" seems to be a key word and life support for some churches but certainly not all. So if anything I would say a church would not survive without the people.

But no doubt some "churches" certainly have a healthy economy outside the state.

Nice.
However I am talking about the time of Moses. Afterall we hear of offering from way back.
Because even in this same time you have provided above there is a record of someone who gave tithes of all He possessed ( I know you know that money is a possession) as well.

@emofine,
I believe in giving offering of any possession of mine I have been blessed of God with so like you say it is not about the money....it is about giving of what you have that God blessed you with, money, land, and any other possession.

The widow's mite was given under the dispensation of the law of Moses. There is plenty of other evidence that money was given into the "Treasury" as offerings still under the law of Moses.

Even Judas' 30 pieces of silver was to be given to the Treasury except it was rejected as blood money.

Snowwy: @emofine,
I believe in giving offering of any possession of mine I have been blessed of God with so like you say it is not about the money....it is about giving of what you have that God blessed you with, money, land, and any other possession.

Yes I know. I think some people translate giving what you have as having to be solely cold cash but unfortunately some churches encourages this notion. There was a young artist who offered her talent to her church and young IT students who designed the website for the church. They were'nt exactly balling in it but the significant services they rendered could and should constitute as an "offering" imo.

"Clap offering", "worship offering", "offering of services e.g ushering, church car park attendant etc" are all "offering".

Snowwy: . . . there is a record of someone who gave tithes of all He possessed ( I know you know that money is a possession) as well.

So, who was this person?

@emofine,You are right.

@Enigma,
The scripture you provided initially is not new....we are talking about the Mosaic times in this case....do not tell me that it was only from the time of Jesus you could pick offering as money...Common...because you are just telling me also (something that you guys have always had issues with) that you now accept Abraham's tithe as OK since it is in the OT as well. That was a classic example of giving ALL and it was acceptable....please check the times of Jesus just as you did, he talked about a case of someone who gave tithe of ALL of ones possessions as well.

If your example for your claim that some one "tithed all he possessed" is Abram, then the example is false; what it means is that you are adding to scripture.

The Bible does not say he gave tithes of "all he possessed"; he gave tithes of "all", but Hebrews 7 clarifies for us that "all" refers to "spoils" of war. So what Abram gave was tithes of 'all' he seized in war not "all he possessed".

On your other point: before we go into issues of other examples of money under Mosaic regime: are you denying i.e. are you arguing that the money offering in the case of the widow and the initial consideration in the case of Judas' 30 shekels were not under the Mosaic regime?

@Enigma,
Do not jump the gun....I was not quoting Abraham. However for your benefit, the spoils of war is the benefit and possession of the victor but that is by the way.
I said Jesus was talking here, he gave the example, please try to relax and here questions well.

Anyways, you can go look for it and also know that there are many ways you give to God as @emofine said.

You mentined clap offering, worship offering and offering of services and all you just did shows that it is the heart that matters....and you Give as Jesus said in faith....the central theme Jesus mentioned was ....GIVE...

That is the point I am talking about.
Anyway, there is a case of where money was given as part of offering too to God in the OT, it was actualled called 'money' not even called shekel or anything. It was plainly stated as money.
You can go look for it as well.

My concluding statement is GIVE...tithe, offering, services, alms, gifts, your heart body and soul to GOD. Let us not get stuck in the letter of the word. It is by faith in God.
Have a nice day!

1. Quote where it is stated that anyone gave tithes of all s/he possessed, let us assess it ---- if it is in the Bible.

2. Of course, there are instances where people gave money; all I wanted was for you to be explicit in your denial of the widow's mite and Judas' 30 shekels as being under the Mosaic regime. If you want passages, I can give you. For benefit of other readers, see e.g. 2 Kings 12:9.

3. Look even with tithes there were instructions if one wanted to do it with money: (a) in one instance it was forbidden altogether, i.e. money was not acceptable at all as tithe; (b) in a second instance to try and use money as tithes attracted punishment in the form of a fine, you had to add extra thus making the tithe in money something in the region of 12.5%; (c) the only time that God Himself made an exception for tithe to be in money ---He i.e. God said that the tither should spend the money on whatsoever his heart desired so as to jollify himself and family together with widows etc; the money was not to be given in "church" or equivalent!!!!

The bottom line, there is no tithing obligation in Christianity; strictly, there is no tithing doctrine except to say that a person can choose to do his own giving in the form of giving 10% into church.

Snowwy: We have records of tithing of all and all one possesses in the bible actually.

However, since offering is required today it will be nice to get a quote or quotes in the Old testament in which money was used as offering (rather than agric produce) to worship the Lord and thank Him.

Anyone?

Let me try

Nehemiah 10:32(KJV)
32Also we made ordinances for us, to charge ourselves yearly with the third part of a shekel for the service of the house of our God;

2 Kings 12:4(KJV)
4And Jehoash said to the priests, All the money of the dedicated things that is brought into the house of the LORD, even the money of every one that passeth the account, the money that every man is set at, and all the money that cometh into any man's heart to bring into the house of the LORD,

I want to believe you are happy now

Enigma:
there is no tithing doctrine except to say that a person can choose to do his own giving in the form of giving 10% into church.

I think percentage to be contributed should be determined by the giver. You would be influencing the amount to be given if you specify the %

emöfine2:

I'm not a church attendant but from a neutral standpoint I doubt that donation or offering has to be solely monetary, services can be offered also. However if the church received no assistance whatsoever be it monetary or otherwise then most likely such a church or any other edifice wouldn't stand. I've seen churches with members below a double digit population and they have survived due to the services each member has offered which wasn't necessarily monetary but I gather that "money" seems to be a key word and life support for some churches but certainly not all. So if anything I would say a church would not survive without the people.

But no doubt some "churches" certainly have a healthy economy outside the state.

u hav spoken well. What i realy mean is that, why must offereing be offered in churches. For example, a pastor can say, for instance, "through out 2012, all tithe shoud be paid at any orphannage or mortherless baby home.

Why must it be only in the church. Because i know that most churches use the money for strictly for their members, which is beçomin a club and clicks are now formed in the churches!!!

Zikkyy:

I think percentage to be contributed should be determined by the giver. You would be influencing the amount to be given if you specify the %

Agreed, to be honest. It shows how far we bend and how hard we try to accommodate our "tithe" preaching friends . . . .

. . . . even at the risk that they will misrepresent us (as they do very frequently, as to border on obtuseness or dishonesty) that we are "supporting" the so-called "tithing".

Tithing is a law under Jewdaism(mosaic law)not for christians.God discouraged the jews from using money for tithing becouse TITHING was for the food security For the LEVITES,WIDOWS,THE POOR AND THE LESS PRIVELAGED INCLUDING THE STRANGERS,while money was also provided for the service of the temple known as shekel of the sanctuary.

Financial provision
Leviticus 27
27:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When a man shall make a singular vow, the persons shall be for the LORD by thy estimation.
27:3 And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary.
27:4 And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels.
27:5 And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels.
27:6 And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.
27:7 And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels.

TITHING
Leviticus 27
30 “‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord. 31 Whoever would redeem any of their tithe must add a fifth of the value to it. 32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord. 33 No one may pick out the good from the bad or make any substitution. If anyone does make a substitution, both the animal and its substitute become holy and cannot be redeemed.’”

34 These are the commands the Lord gave Moses at Mount Sinai for the Israelites

Deuteronomy 14

22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.


Which book of the bible do they really reffer to as bases to their financial tithing.

@kodilson
Thanx for this fresh insight into this tithing debacle, this is the first time I am noticing the financial provision for the temple in the very same chapter in Leviticus that God instituted tithing. The earlier parts of Leviticus 27 deals with financial contribution to the temple whilst in the same the same chapter tithes is spoken of as agricultural produce. Clearly from this scripture we conclude that God NEVER required tithes of money. This is in addition to deut 14:22-26 which already makes it clear money is not meant to be tithed.

Why is there so many churches if not for the control of the money extorted thereof?

If the money stop coming their "love" for god will die off and the church will close down.

Pastor Kun:

For instance tithes of agricultural produce in the old testament was twisted to mean money in modern times even though money existed in biblical times and it wasn't acceptable as tithes. This is apart from the fact that tithing was directed strictly at the Jews and it never formed part of new testament christian practise as established by the apostles who were mandated by Jesus to establish the gospel. Infact tithing did not find it's way into the church the year 586AD when the catholic church was seeking to raise more revenue for it's programmes. Even then it was still tithe of agricultural produce. Monetary tithes started in the church as recently as the nineteenth century when greed and pentecostalism was introduced to christianity.

you guys read the bile but you do not examine the scripts old times are not nowadays what benefit can give to the church a horse offering nowadays ? if you offer a vehicle for church service ? what is the principle nowadays for the motor force for an activity ? we have to follow the evolution