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Music And Infinity - Religion - Nairaland

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Music And Infinity by DeepSight(m): 12:48pm On Apr 20, 2012
Why is it possible to create an infinite amount of different musical tunes?
Re: Music And Infinity by PastorAIO: 12:53pm On Apr 20, 2012
Deep Sight:
Why is it possible to create an infinite amount of different musical tunes?

Because there are an infinite number of gradations between one pitch and another. A Continuum in fact.

and secondly, because there are an infinite number of gradations of time between one moment and another. A continuum in fact.

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Re: Music And Infinity by DeepSight(m): 1:03pm On Apr 20, 2012
Pastor AIO:

Because there are an infinite number of gradations between one pitch and another. A Continuum in fact.

and secondly, because there are an infinite number of gradations of time between one moment and another. A continuum in fact.

Good boy.

And does this tell us anything about this reality in which we live?
Re: Music And Infinity by aletheia(m): 3:58pm On Apr 20, 2012
Pastor AIO:

Because there are an infinite number of gradations between one pitch and another. A Continuum in fact.

and secondly, because there are an infinite number of gradations of time between one moment and another. A continuum in fact.

Do I detect an echo of Zeno's Achilles & the Tortoise paradox?
Re: Music And Infinity by DeepSight(m): 4:15pm On Apr 20, 2012
aletheia:

Do I detect an echo of Zeno's Achilles & the Tortoise paradox?

That man was a very wicked and sinister agent of Lucifer.

His paradoxes were satanic attempts to destroy God's wonderful creation.

Holy Ghost fire consume him.

Aaaaaamen!

Lol!

Seriously now, for those interested -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenos_paradoxes

Again, what does this tell us about the nature of reality?
Re: Music And Infinity by aletheia(m): 5:14pm On Apr 20, 2012
Deep Sight:
Again, what does this tell us about the nature of reality?

grin

First off: your starting premise is flawed. We can create a whole lot of musical tunes . . . but is it really an infinite number?

Pastor AIO says there are an infinite number of gradations between one pitch and another. A Continuum in fact.

1. I think the nature of sound waves belies that. Sound waves are discrete mechanical waves not continuous EM waves, e.g middle C is 256 Hz. They are generated by vibrations propagating through a medium.

2. Not all sound is perceived as music. Indeed what is music to one culture is dissonance to another. Sounds making up music must be arranged in a certain harmonic sequence for them to be perceived as pleasant by the human brain. It can be supposed that this perception is hard-wired into our brains and thus must necessarily limit the ways in which a potential composer would arrange notes into a harmonious melody or else we would all be composers randomly assembling sounds into music.

3. Given the foregoing, we are left with a limited but very very large number of sounds (gogoolplex) and a limited but very very large number of ways (gogoolplex) in which to combine them into music.

4. You cannot generate an infinite amount from a finite amount --- since there is always an upper limit to the number of ways in which finite quantities can be combined (Combinatorial mathematics affirms this).

5. In conclusion: gogoolplex raised to gogoolplex may seem to us infinite but it is still not infinity.

I think we use the words infinite/infinity rather loosely, don't you think?

Perhaps if you could express pi (or other transcendental numbers) in music . . .
Re: Music And Infinity by PastorAIO: 6:11pm On Apr 20, 2012
The only relation to Zeno would be in the mention of an infinitely divisible continuum. Otherwise I am talking about something else entirely.

aletheia:

grin

First off: your starting premise is flawed. We can create a whole lot of musical tunes . . . but is it really an infinite number?

Pastor AIO says there are an infinite number of gradations between one pitch and another. A Continuum in fact.

1. I think the nature of sound waves belies that. Sound waves are discrete mechanical waves not continuous EM waves, e.g middle C is 256 Hz. They are generated by vibrations propagating through a medium.

My Piano is out of tune. My C is not 256HZ. In fact it is 155.567239172836HZ. But it still plays beautifully because Music is not about the absolute pitch but rather the relation between the pitches. As long as my C remains a perfect fifth away from my G then it doesn't matter what actual pitch it is.

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Re: Music And Infinity by Joagbaje(m): 6:21pm On Apr 20, 2012
Deep Sight:
Why is it possible to create an infinite amount of different musical tunes?

I dont get your point very well. Are you into music? Is it about new songs being released daily?
Re: Music And Infinity by aletheia(m): 6:30pm On Apr 20, 2012
Pastor AIO: The only relation to Zeno would be in the mention of an infinitely divisible continuum. Otherwise I am talking about something else entirely.
My Piano is out of tune. My C is not 256HZ. In fact it is 155.567239172836HZ. But it still plays beautifully because Music is not about the absolute pitch but rather the relation between the pitches. As long as my C remains a perfect fifth away from my G then it doesn't matter what actual pitch it is.
Thanks for the correction. I'm not knowledgeable about music. Wish I'd given more effort and time to studying it when I was younger though. cry

P.S. I googled it. Seems middle C = 261.625565 hertz or 264.298 Hz or 262 Hz or 278.4375 Hz or 256 Hz. No consensus it seems.
Re: Music And Infinity by DeepSight(m): 1:46pm On Apr 21, 2012
Joagbaje:

I dont get your point very well. Are you into music? Is it about new songs being released daily?

Haaa. . .u fall my hand small. . .but i guess you are still on point. . .let me rephrase: is there any limit to the new tunes that may be conceived?
Re: Music And Infinity by DeepSight(m): 1:47pm On Apr 21, 2012
aletheia:

grin

First off: your starting premise is flawed. We can create a whole lot of musical tunes . . . but is it really an infinite number?

Pastor AIO says there are an infinite number of gradations between one pitch and another. A Continuum in fact.

1. I think the nature of sound waves belies that. Sound waves are discrete mechanical waves not continuous EM waves, e.g middle C is 256 Hz. They are generated by vibrations propagating through a medium.

2. Not all sound is perceived as music. Indeed what is music to one culture is dissonance to another. Sounds making up music must be arranged in a certain harmonic sequence for them to be perceived as pleasant by the human brain. It can be supposed that this perception is hard-wired into our brains and thus must necessarily limit the ways in which a potential composer would arrange notes into a harmonious melody or else we would all be composers randomly assembling sounds into music.

3. Given the foregoing, we are left with a limited but very very large number of sounds (gogoolplex) and a limited but very very large number of ways (gogoolplex) in which to combine them into music.

4. You cannot generate an infinite amount from a finite amount --- since there is always an upper limit to the number of ways in which finite quantities can be combined (Combinatorial mathematics affirms this).

5. In conclusion: gogoolplex raised to gogoolplex may seem to us infinite but it is still not infinity.

I think we use the words infinite/infinity rather loosely, don't you think?

Perhaps if you could express pi (or other transcendental numbers) in music . . .

Do you think that this places a ceiling on the amount of musincal tunes that could ever be conceived?
Re: Music And Infinity by aletheia(m): 2:01pm On Apr 21, 2012
Deep Sight:

Do you think that this places a ceiling on the amount of musincal tunes that could ever be conceived?
If you have a number so huge that to the human mind it seems infinite though it is not in actual fact infinite then from a practical perspective, there would appear to be no ceiling.
Re: Music And Infinity by DeepSight(m): 2:09pm On Apr 21, 2012
The creation of music rests in combinations. Do you really think that there is a possible limit to to sorts of sounds and combinations thereof possible?

Do you think there are not sorts of sound as yet undiscovered?
Re: Music And Infinity by aletheia(m): 2:21pm On Apr 21, 2012
Deep Sight:
The creation of music rests in combinations. Do you really think that there is a possible limit to to sorts of sounds and combinations thereof possible?

Yes. That's the point I made in #4 of my earlier post.

Deep Sight:
Do you think there are not sorts of sound as yet undiscovered?

Not on this earth.
Re: Music And Infinity by DeepSight(m): 2:41pm On Apr 21, 2012
^ ^ ^ Okay, so let us suppose, just for the sake of supposition - that mankind one day arrive at the "very large number" of possible musical tunes which you refer to. In other words, a day comes when mankind have made that "very large number" of musical tunes.

Upon the dawn of that fine day, is it your position that mankind will NOT be able to produce any new tunes beyond that?
Re: Music And Infinity by PastorAIO: 2:53pm On Apr 21, 2012
Is there a limit to the number of Gods in existence, or in proto-existence?
Re: Music And Infinity by Joagbaje(m): 3:04pm On Apr 21, 2012
Deep Sight:

Haaa. . .u fall my hand small. . .but i guess you are still on point. . .let me rephrase: is there any limit to the new tunes that may be conceived?

I thought as much but I just wanted to be sure. I play music . I write songs and i play the keyboards . My answer is yes and no. Yes in the sense that there are basic movements and progressions In music which I feel may be exhausted. That's why we have many songs following same progression if we have to follow the fundamentals . You can al,oat put the lyrics of one song into another by a different musician and it will fit perfectly. Some do this deliberately , a kind of copyright abuse. Like the popular church song "ose o Jesu a o mayin o" which was done by ebenezer obey. The lyrics. Was written by Obey but the tune was copied from Bonny M. There' are situation where similar things happen but purely coincidental because the music was based on basic progression of cords.

But on the other hand I can still answer No because. Music is changing from the basic styles into many things. The basic laws. May no longer. Be followed . It's free for all . For that ,the madness is endless .
Re: Music And Infinity by DeepSight(m): 3:10pm On Apr 21, 2012
Deep Sight:
^ ^ ^ Okay, so let us suppose, just for the sake of supposition - that mankind one day arrive at the "very large number" of possible musical tunes which you refer to. In other words, a day comes when mankind have made that "very large number" of musical tunes.

Upon the dawn of that fine day, is it your position that mankind will NOT be able to produce any new tunes beyond that?

@ Alethiea: infact, you should probably also address this separately with respect to all sound since you have referred to sound waves, et all. In the day that mankind reaches the "very large number" of all possible sound as you put it: do you think mankind will never be able to create any new sound.

Do you think there is a limit to the words that mankind may create?
Re: Music And Infinity by Kay17: 3:23pm On Apr 21, 2012
*tears* it would be a sad day if Music reaches its maximum for new tunes.

I think as long as there is a finite number of sounds, there will be a finite number of combination possible
Re: Music And Infinity by DeepSight(m): 4:40pm On Apr 21, 2012
Is there really a finite number of possible or conceivable sounds?
Re: Music And Infinity by wirinet(m): 6:10pm On Apr 21, 2012
Deep Sight:
Is there really a finite number of possible or conceivable sounds?

Of course there is a finite number of possible or conceivable sounds. First of all sounds are mechanical disturbance of air that our ears are sensitive to. And the human ear is sensitive to a limited range of frequencies, from about 20hz to 20MHz. We cannot perceive lower and higher frequencies.

Then there are no infinite graduation of sounds between notes, in its fundamental state all energy is not continuous but quantized, so only specific basic unit of graduation is allowed. Light is also emitted and absorbed in quanta.
Re: Music And Infinity by wirinet(m): 6:21pm On Apr 21, 2012
Deep Sight:
Is there really a finite number of possible or conceivable sounds?

Of course there is a finite number of possible or conceivable sounds. First of all sounds are mechanical disturbance of air that our ears are sensitive to. And the human ear is sensitive to a limited range of frequencies, from about 20hz to 20MHz. We cannot perceive lower and higher frequencies.

Then there are no infinite graduation of sounds between notes, in its fundamental state all energy is not continuous but quantized, so only specific basic unit of graduation is allowed. Light is also emitted and absorbed in quanta.
Re: Music And Infinity by aletheia(m): 7:26pm On Apr 21, 2012
wirinet:

Of course there is a finite number of possible or conceivable sounds. First of all sounds are mechanical disturbance of air that our ears are sensitive to. And the human ear is sensitive to a limited range of frequencies, from about 20hz to 20MHz. We cannot perceive lower and higher frequencies.

Then there are no infinite graduation of sounds between notes, in its fundamental state all energy is not continuous but quantized, so only specific basic unit of graduation is allowed. Light is also emitted and absorbed in quanta.

Just the point I 've been trying to pass across --- only you put it across in a clearer way. Thanks.

@Deep Sight, refer to wirinet's post for the answers to your questions:
Deep Sight:
Is there really a finite number of possible or conceivable sounds?
Yes, there is.

Deep Sight:
@ Alethiea: infact, you should probably also address this separately with respect to all sound since you have referred to sound waves, et all. In the day that mankind reaches the "very large number" of all possible sound as you put it: do you think mankind will never be able to create any new sound.

Do you think there is a limit to the words that mankind may create?

Yes there is because there is a limit to the number of sounds the human tongue can produce. Why do you think the different alphabets have a limited number of consonants and vowels?
Re: Music And Infinity by jayriginal: 2:27am On Apr 22, 2012
Guitarist here, studio producer and engineer here (in those days oh, no be now grin )

To the words mankind can create ?
Yes, I think so.

Breaking it down, lets use the alphabet (ours).
There must be a limit with 26 letters. (You will understand when I talk about chess)

For every other alphabet in other languages, there should be a limit as well. So we can suppose that there is a limit on words created. Meaningful words that is.

As for music, many technical points have been raised dealing with frequencies and what not.

Some interesting points have been raised, but lets be practical.
If your instrument is tuned to concert pitch, then one detuned string (assuming a piano or any other stringed instrument) will not sound like music.
If you detune your entire instrument a half step (or semitone if you like) or a whole tone you will still sound perfect (a reason capos are used by a lot of country guitarists).

Now its possible mathematically to create a wide variety of sounds by detuning in successive microscopic amounts but I doubt if that can be called music.
Music relies on harmony and dissonance. The church once banned the tritone calling it the devils interval, but today, it is widely used in jazz.

If this post is about Zeno and his paradoxes, we might as well say that we are not where we are currently.
I say this because, assuming the big b@ng, flowing from the paradox, there would be an infinite number of steps before we can get here and so we cant.
Makes very little sense to me!

Anyway, I am an avid chess player to and with 32 pieces the number of possible chess games has been calculated to be more than the number of atoms in the Universe (but a finite number still). (Refer to the top where I spoke about 26 letters).

The Western scale is diatonic and chromatic. Diatonically, there are only 7 notes. Chromatically, there are 12 notes.

So yes, as far as western music is concerned, there should be a finite limit to musical tunes.

I'm too lazy to research other scales but I believe the same result will hold true.

Also remember Joagbajes point.
Certain progressions are natural and others will probably not make sense.
Re: Music And Infinity by DeepSight(m): 3:27pm On Apr 22, 2012
wirinet:

Of course there is a finite number of possible or conceivable sounds. First of all sounds are mechanical disturbance of air that our ears are sensitive to. And the human ear is sensitive to a limited range of frequencies, from about 20hz to 20MHz. We cannot perceive lower and higher frequencies.

Then there are no infinite graduation of sounds between notes, in its fundamental state all energy is not continuous but quantized, so only specific basic unit of graduation is allowed. Light is also emitted and absorbed in quanta.


Okay, lets widen the post a little. You have yourself struck on something without recognizing it.

You said that "the human ear is sensitive to a limited range of frequencies, from about 20hz to 20MHz. We cannot perceive lower and higher frequencies."

Please note the bolded within the italicized above.

This infers that there are many frequencies that the human ear is not sensitive to.

And as such, obviously many sounds that humans can not or do not hear.

Which would infer the possibility of the existence of many notes that humans do not perceive.

Would your conclusion be revised if in the future humans develop greater auditory refinement and thus are exposed to a new world of frequencies?

Are ALL the possible frequencies in existence finite?

Please refer to same questions for LIGHT as well.

There are quanta of light that humans cannot see, no? Some animals have better refinement in that regard. To what extent can we state that such quanta are really finite? Is it to the extent of our perception only? Do the issues of sound and light not tend to gradations of infinity? Is there trully a state of absolute no light or absolute no sound, anywhere in existence, or is there rather just reduced or increased gradations, which tend to infinity?
Re: Music And Infinity by DeepSight(m): 3:38pm On Apr 22, 2012
@ Jayriginal and Aletheia -

Please refer to my post to wirinet above.

Both of you also introduced qualifications. Jay qualified by saying "western music" - what sorts of music abound in the world outside the western world - not to speak about the earth, and then, the universe, and then, all existence?

Aleth qualified by saying "the human tongue" - what sorts of music may be produced by a further evolved human tongue perhaps? Or even a non human tongue? Are the only sounds we make limited to the tongue? Have we conceived of all possible musical instruments in the universe? Will we ever?
Re: Music And Infinity by jayriginal: 8:54pm On Apr 22, 2012
Deep Sight:
@ Jayriginal and Aletheia -

Please refer to my post to wirinet above.

Both of you also introduced qualifications. Jay qualified by saying "western music" - what sorts of music abound in the world outside the western world - not to speak about the earth, and then, the universe, and then, all existence?

Aleth qualified by saying "the human tongue" - what sorts of music may be produced by a further evolved human tongue perhaps? Or even a non human tongue? Are the only sounds we make limited to the tongue? Have we conceived of all possible musical instruments in the universe? Will we ever?

Western music because we are most familiar with it. There are other scales in use. The orientals use quite a different scale than we do for instance.

Anyway, lets take the highest sound possible and the lowest. From one end to another we may select certain intervals and use them as our scale. Others will select their own intervals and use them. Thats all there is to it really.


Deep Sight:

You said that "the human ear is sensitive to a limited range of frequencies, from about 20hz to 20MHz. We cannot perceive lower and higher frequencies."

Please note the bolded within the italicized above.

This infers that there are many frequencies that the human ear is not sensitive to.

And as such, obviously many sounds that humans can not or do not hear.

Which would infer the possibility of the existence of many notes that humans do not perceive.

Yes to the above. Certain low and high frequency sounds are beyond the threshold of human auditory perception. These frequencies might be perceived in other ways, but not by hearing them.


Would your conclusion be revised if in the future humans develop greater auditory refinement and thus are exposed to a new world of frequencies?
No, because we already know that there are sounds we cannot hear. That doesnt necessarily make the number of sounds possible infinite.


Are ALL the possible frequencies in existence finite?
Are we talking mathematically or practically here. A vital issue because assuming a certain pitch, it is possible to detune ever so slightly and sound to all intents and purposes like the original pitch. From a practical point of view then, you would still be on the same pitch. From a mathematical point of view though, there should be demonstrable evidence that the sound is not on exactly the same frequency as the original pitch.

From the mathematical point of view, I suppose that the number of sounds that can be created would be very large indeed but not necessarily infinite.
From a practical point of view the number of sounds would be much smaller.

I need to make a point clear, when I say sound in this content, I'm not referring to doors slamming or guns firing etc, Im referring to the steps along the highest and lowest frequency.
Re: Music And Infinity by PastorAIO: 11:20am On Apr 23, 2012
Pastor AIO: Is there a limit to the number of Gods in existence, or in proto-existence?



I threw an Ogede here, but it seems that there is no monkey that wants to catch it for me.

Maybe Deepsight would find it more interesting after he's read Plato's Ion.

You can find it online here:

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/ion.html
Re: Music And Infinity by PastorAIO: 11:30am On Apr 23, 2012
Alas, I do not think that the link I gave above is a very good translation. There are a lot of subtleties that are lost in translation. Anyway sha, the main gist of why I am pointing you to Ion is to be found in this passage. this is the point where the book starts to get really good.

Soc. I perceive, Ion; and I will proceed to explain to you what I imagine to be the reason of this. The gift which you possess of speaking excellently about Homer is not an art, but, as I was just saying, an inspiration; there is a divinity moving you, like that contained in the stone which Euripides calls a magnet, but which is commonly known as the stone of Heraclea. This stone not only attracts iron rings, but also imparts to them a similar power of attracting other rings; and sometimes you may see a number of pieces of iron and rings suspended from one another so as to form quite a long chain: and all of them derive their power of suspension from the original stone. In like manner the Muse first of all inspires men herself; and from these inspired persons a chain of other persons is suspended, who take the inspiration. For all good poets, epic as well as lyric, compose their beautiful poems not by art, but because they are inspired and possessed. And as the Corybantian revellers when they dance are not in their right mind, so the lyric poets are not in their right mind when they are composing their beautiful strains: but when falling under the power of music and metre they are inspired and possessed; like Bacchic maidens who draw milk and honey from the rivers when they are under the influence of Dionysus but not when they are in their right mind. And the soul of the lyric poet does the same, as they themselves say; for they tell us that they bring songs from honeyed fountains, culling them out of the gardens and dells of the Muses; they, like the bees, winging their way from flower to flower. And this is true. For the poet is a light and winged and holy thing, and there is no invention in him until he has been inspired and is out of his senses, and the mind is no longer in him: when he has not attained to this state, he is powerless and is unable to utter his oracles.


A very important point that I need to make that is kinda lost in translation is the word Poetry. Poetry in ancient greek simply means Invention. A poet is an inventor. A carpenter that invents a new kind of furniture is a Poet, strictly speaking. Anything that didn't exist before that is brought into existence by an artisan (no matter the craft) is called Poetry.

What today we call poetry was what the Ancient Greeks called Rhapsody. So a Rhapsodist could be poetic or he couldn't depending on whether or not he was inspired. Just as a Carpenter may be poetic or not, depending again on inspiration. What is the source of Inspiration? That is the kernel of what Plato is getting in this book.
Re: Music And Infinity by PastorAIO: 11:32am On Apr 23, 2012
wirinet:

Of course there is a finite number of possible or conceivable sounds. First of all sounds are mechanical disturbance of air that our ears are sensitive to. And the human ear is sensitive to a limited range of frequencies, from about 20hz to 20MHz. We cannot perceive lower and higher frequencies.

Then there are no infinite graduation of sounds between notes, in its fundamental state all energy is not continuous but quantized, so only specific basic unit of graduation is allowed. Light is also emitted and absorbed in quanta.

This guy don't take quantum mechanics dabaru my argument.


However consider that hearing is not the only way to perceive frequencies. Sight: seeing colours is another way. In fact all the senses are simply tuned to different ranges of reality. And they can overlap in the brain (synaesthesia).

Pythagoras claimed to be able to hear the music of the spheres. In other words the entire cosmos/universe is one big symphony and those who know how can hear it.


The question then is, does the history of the cosmos have a limit to the events that can occur in it, or will History be one day bound to repeat itself.
Re: Music And Infinity by aletheia(m): 3:37pm On Apr 24, 2012
Pastor AIO:
The question then is, does the history of the cosmos have a limit to the events that can occur in it, or will History be one day bound to repeat itself.

Since the Universe has an end. . .then the history of the cosmos would have a limit to the events that can occur.

Time is linear so History in the strictest sense will not repeat itself though certain patterns may recur. Thus we do not expect that at some point in the future we will see Napoleon repeat his famous palindrome "Able was I ere I saw Elba".

When we realize that music is order/structure/information encoded or imposed on an unordered set of sounds - Shannon's entropy (an extension of the second law of thermodynamics leads me to conclude that there is a limit to the possible amount of music that can be created. Interestingly this second law in the forms of Gibbs entropy and von Neumann entropy assures that History does not repeat itself.
Re: Music And Infinity by PastorAIO: 4:26pm On Apr 24, 2012
Haaa! I was beginning to fear that I had killed the thread.

Since the Universe has an end. . .then the history of the cosmos would have a limit to the events that can occur.

Is this based on religious belief or on Scientific investigation or on some other means?


Time is linear so History in the strictest sense will not repeat itself though certain patterns may recur. Thus we do not expect that at some point in the future we will see Napoleon repeat his famous palindrome "Able was I ere I saw Elba".

I would question the assertion that time was linear.


When we realize that music is order/structure/information encoded or imposed on an unordered set of sounds - Shannon's entropy (an extension of the second law of thermodynamics leads me to conclude that there is a limit to the possible amount of music that can be created. Interestingly this second law in the forms of Gibbs entropy and von Neumann entropy assures that History does not repeat itself.

I will need to find out about Shannon's, Gibb's and Von neumann before I can respond to the above. Till then, chew on these:


The greatest weight.-
- What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: "This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence - even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned upside down again and again, and you with it, speck of dust!"
Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus?... Or how well disposed would you have to become to yourself and to life to crave nothing more fervently than this ultimate eternal confirmation and seal?

from Nietzsche's The Gay Science, s.341, Walter Kaufmann transl.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return

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