Nairaland Forum

Kay 17: I can argue that I'm a prisoner to laws

And you can argue that you've got some freedom?

[quote author=Image123][/quote] Ok god will/image and that of man is the same?

Man being created in God's image encapsulates man having free will.

Freewill only earns it's name when nobody has to suffer damnation for eternity in the beyond for having exercised it. If the Creator actually gave man freewill to make choices, then it has to mean that all consequences will have to be nullified after death. The application of the consequences of the gift of freewill should be limited only to this physical reality we are all experiencing now, and not beyond it. That is the only way freewill can make any sense.

In truth however, absolute freedom of exercising freewill is an illusion. Each human being is assigned to a fixed path in life which he/she has to follow. That is the only way for man to serve whatever his purpose is in this existence with intent without losing focus. No man can do everything in his lifetime(too short) even though he has the freewill to do so. He has to have a focussed path to keep him on a particular path throughout his lifetime.

A man who started his life as a religious person and then end it as an atheist or non-religious has just gone through his own path in this existence pre-ordained for him before entering into the physical world. A scientist who is also an atheist is so because that was how his path has been constructed or planned for him. That is how i believe things work.

Yes, and sunrise will earn its name only on the day that the Sun stands and rises up. Nonsense gospel according to jenwit

Sunrise has already earned it's name by RISING in the east, brethren. And it does that every blessed day.

Image123: Yes, and sunrise will earn its name only on the day that the Sun stands and rises up. Nonsense gospel according to jenwit

Jenwitemi: Sunrise has already earned it's name by RISING in the east, brethren. And it does that every blessed day.

Except that it actually does not move or rise anywhere. It's the earth that is said to be doing the movement. Are you in J.S.S1?

Getting ultra pedantic to win an argument? I am not interested going that avenue with you, mate. The sun rises is what everybody on earth says because that is what we see from our own perspective. You are free to say it in your own way. End of.

Besides, what has all that got to do with what we are talking about here, which is freewill?

Image123:
Except that it actually does not move or rise anywhere. It's the earth that is said to be doing the movement. Are you in J.S.S1?

for example there are two cellphones in the market and one is in perfect condition while the other can explode in your ear while making a phone call. The seller of this product makes you to know the disadvantages of one and the advantages of the other. It is now left for you to make a choice. It will be foolishness for anyone to buy the one that can explode in the ear. There is freewill in choice making and those choices have their effects. A freewill to choose between touching a live n@ked wire and not touching it. There is no fallacy here if you put your reasoning together.

Jenwitemi: Getting ultra pedantic to win an argument? I am not interested going that avenue with you, mate. The sun rises is what everybody on earth says because that is what we see from our own perspective. You are free to say it in your own way. End of.

Besides, what has all that got to do with what we are talking about here, which is freewill?

You were already on the ultra pedantic avenue on 'free will'. You chose the meaning that suits you without regard to the christian's/biblical meaning.

jmoore: for example there are two cellphones in the market and one is in perfect condition while the other can explode in your ear while making a phone call. The seller of this product makes you to know the disadvantages of one and the advantages of the other. It is now left for you to make a choice. It will be foolishness for anyone to buy the one that can explode in the ear. There is freewill in choice making and those choices have their effects. A freewill to choose between touching a live n@ked wire and not touching it. There is no fallacy here if you put your reasoning together.

Very true. One can choose to hug the nak.ed wire especially after a disappointment, or work something better/else out.

jmoore: for example there are two cellphones in the market and one is in perfect condition while the other can explode in your ear while making a phone call. The seller of this product makes you to know the disadvantages of one and the advantages of the other. It is now left for you to make a choice. It will be foolishness for anyone to buy the one that can explode in the ear. There is freewill in choice making and those choices have their effects. A freewill to choose between touching a live n@ked wire and not touching it. There is no fallacy here if you put your reasoning together.

It is not freewill if I already know billions of years ago that you were going to touch the live wire and still create you to go and touch the live wire. your god already knows what we all are going to do no matter what. why is he still expecting something different?

I only gave my own viewpoint on the subject. I don't give a hoot about the christian's/biblical meaning because that viewpoint is somebody else's and not mine. Nothing wrong with that, dude. Everyone is entitled to their own viewpoints and that includes those of the guys who wrote the biblical texts.

Image123:
You were already on the ultra pedantic avenue on 'free will'. You chose the meaning that suits you without regard to the christian's/biblical meaning.

It is like a film director who gives the role of a villain to an actor to act in his movie, only to have the cops waiting for the actor when the shooting is over for the crimes commited by the character the actor played. Does that make sense? Of course not!

Logic Mind:

It is not freewill if I already know billions of years ago that you were going to touch the live wire and still create you to go and touch the live wire. your god already knows what we all are going to do no matter what. why is he still expecting something different?

emöfine2: According to certain theological dogma every human being is granted “free-will” by God; the right to make our own choices with no interference or influence.

But when the only available options are limited is it still a free choice or simply a dilemma?

I think the initial premise of this question is wrong.

When a Muslim says man has 'freewill', He talks primarily of his conduct on the earth. They are many paths to take in life. you have the option of taking the right path or the wrong path.

Man has no absolute freewill because his options are limited by his environment, exposure and other factors. But he has to make choices from what is available to him.

Each path leads to some result.

Imagine taking a multiple choice examination, for every question you make a choice from a number of options. At the end of the day, You pass or fail based on those choices you make on the examination.

The free choice is making the right or wrong choices on the exam. That is what is meant by free-will.

When there is a gift and penalty attached to those narrow options, is that not supposed to influence our decision?

Ofcourse, it is supposed to affect your decision.

Would you rather take any exam not knowing the consequences of failure? or would a knowledge of potential consequences of failure help you? Is it true that knowing the consequences of failure pushes you to find the right answers, to work harder.

Would you prefer not to be told of the consequences of failure? I would argue that being told of the consequences of your actions is a mercy to you.

Allah says:
“What can Allah gain by your punishment, if you are grateful and you believe? Nay, it is Allah that recognizes (all good), and knows all things.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 147]

God is not out to punish you, that is why you are told of the consequences of your actions.

When one is confronted by only two possibilities - eternal subjugation or perpetual torture - where exactly does “free will” feature if one will be condemned for a particular “choice”?

Are we not thus coerced into making a particular decision?

This world is a test:

“And certainly, We shall test you with a bit of fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruits. But give glad tidings to the patient ones who, when afflicted with a calamity, say: “Truly! To Allah we belong and truly, to Him we shall return.” They are those upon whom are the blessings, descend from their Lord, and they receive His Mercy, and it is they who are guided.” (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:155-157)

“Blessed is He in Whose Hand is the kingdom, and He is Able to do all things. The One Who has created death and life in order to test you and see which of you is best in deed, and He is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving.” (Surah al-Mulk 67:1-2)

It is clear that this world is a test from the muslim's standpoint. So we strive to be the best people we can to attain paradise.

Our eventual destination is in our hands.

Would you rather be left in the dark about the consequences of your actions on the earth? you call it coercion?

God promises to answer those in need of his guidance. Ask with sincerity and you will be guided.

“Beseech Me in supplication. I will answer you.” [Sûrah Ghâfir: 60]

But the consequences of every choice we make in this physical reality will only be meted in this physical reality. I do not believe it will spill over to the beyond as some religions will have us believe. We make the choices here, we suffer the consequences of our choices also here. My opinion.

Jenwitemi: But the consequences of every choice we make in this physical reality will only be meted in this physical reality. I do not believe it will spill over to the beyond as some religions will have us believe. We make the choices here, we suffer the consequences of our choices also here. My opinion.

There are many evil people that have died 'peacefully' in their sleep. They do not face the consequence of their action on earth.

jmoore: for example there are two cellphones in the market and one is in perfect condition while the other can explode in your ear while making a phone call. The seller of this product makes you to know the disadvantages of one and the advantages of the other. It is now left for you to make a choice. It will be foolishness for anyone to buy the one that can explode in the ear. There is freewill in choice making and those choices have their effects. A freewill to choose between touching a live n@ked wire and not touching it. There is no fallacy here if you put your reasoning together.

Logic Mind:

It is not freewill if I already know billions of years ago that you were going to touch the live wire and still create you to go and touch the live wire. your god already knows what we all are going to do no matter what. why is he still expecting something different?

A live wire has it's own purpose, you should have known about that.
Hell was created for Devil and his fellow demons that were thrown out of heaven after a planned heavenly coup but some humans who decide to join forces with the devil will also end up there. NOTE:Hell was created after devil rebelled against God.

Another example is that you built skyscraper, you live at the last floor and when you want to go downstairs you decide to jump from your own apartment instead of taking the stairs or elevator. A freewill between taking the stairs/elevator and jumping down from your own apartment. Your guess is as good as mine if you decide to jump because your body will be...........sure you will end up dead.

Freewill is the ability to choose between any options no matter the advantages or disadvantages.

jmoore:



A live wire has it's own purpose, you should have known about that.
Hell was created for Devil and his fellow demons that were thrown out of heaven after a planned heavenly coup but some humans who decide to join forces with the devil will also end up there. NOTE:Hell was created after devil rebelled against God.

Another example is that you built skyscraper, you live at the last floor and when you want to go downstairs you decide to jump from your own apartment instead of taking the stairs or elevator. A freewill between taking the stairs/elevator and jumping down from your own apartment. Your guess is as good as mine if you decide to jump because your body will be...........sure you will end up dead.

Freewill is the ability to choose between any options no matter the advantages or disadvantages.

if i have freewill, then god is neither omnipotent nor omniscience.

Free Will is a gift of God. There can be no spiritual maturity without Free Will. Free Will is the spiritual ability to make a choice. It is an ability that resides in the spirit. It gives man the ability to attract from out of Gods creations what inwardly vibrates within the spirit. The spiritual desire emanates from the spirit, setting it aglow such that the spiritual body and other cloaks surrounding the spirit becomes magnetic. That magnetism then attracts from the countless formed and formed energies in the universe that which is of the same vibration as that willed by Man. The human spirit is absolutely free to set itself aglow with any desire it so chooses but what he attracts from creation as a result of this desire must be of the same nature as the desire itself. In other words the choice is free but the consequences of the choice is irrevocable. What you sow, you reap. It is that simple. If you sow yam and then found out that you do not like yam but banana, then you are free to sow banana but you cannot compel the yam you sowed to become banana. The laws of God which manifests in the precise genetic program that allow yam to reproduce only yam and not otherwise prevents yam from becoming banana. As in this earthly analogy, so it is in spiritual things too. By making varied choices and attracting the consequences, the spirit gradually learns how to discriminate and this marks the beginning of his development. Thus God does not bless or punish anyone. The laws of God which indeed are the intrinsic abilities present in every particle or species of creation ensures that each man attracts to himself that, that he actually desires. We are not created as fully self conscious spiritual beings, rather we were created as spiritual seeds that need development to become a self conscious spiritual being. That development to a self conscious spiritual personality (a copy of an image of God) requires the ability of free will.

No body is forced to embark on this journey. We are experiencing in matter because we "asked" God to give us the opportunity to mature and become a copy of his image. Trillions of spirit seeds who have not reached the stage to "ask" God for development are still slumbering as unconscious spirit seeds in heaven, the kingdom of God and trillions of others that have just ripened to the stage to "ask" for development are being expelled to other parts of this material creation (not our own part) to embark on their quest for development. Yes, hell exists but hell is not the creation of God but the work of Man. Hell arose as a result of the use of free will to create evil forms. The spiritual ability of free will can brings forms into existence by pressing different gradations of the power of God into a union. Thus by the power of free will, Man has the ability to create forms by union of the different radiations of God. If radiations of God are mixed in the sense of their intrinsic nature, then the forms created will be harmonious and good and only happiness and joy will be the result. If however incompatible radiations are pressed into union by the power of freewill, then only evil and disaster will be the result. Hell, diseases, evil etc only came into existence because of the wrong mixing of the radiations of God,they were not created by God but a consequence of the free will. If God acts in his creations, the will of God only result in the harmonious mixing of compatible radiations and thus only good can arise with all manifestations of God. When people question the origin of evil deeds, they seem not to differentiate with Gods creations in its original stage and development or application of these primordial particles. A crude analogy may suffice. Buried in the nucleus of an atom is an energy we call atomic energy. In this state it is just atomic energy and stands outside the concepts of good and evil. If however by the exercise of free will we exploit this energy to create atomic bombs or nuclear power station, then this application is either good or evil. The same holds true for all gradations of energies or radiations of God. Even the intimate energy is included.

Now if man have used the power of the free will for the purpose that God gave it to him, that is spiritual development, he will become a copy of the image of God and will one day return back to heaven, the kingdom of God as a self conscious spiritual personality and from where he will contribute to the development and evolution of various creations of God. If however, he used the power of free will to bring about disharmonious mix of radiations, then, the evil forms he created will trap him with the world of matter. World of matter is not eternal but subject to evolution and development. Thus the world of matter will come to an end and from the end another new beginning. Thus a human spirit who have acquired the self conscious personality in the wrong way will have this personality disintegrated with the disintegrating world of matter and returns to unconscious spirit seeds. Freed from the encumbrance of matter, the unconscious spirit floats back to to heaven where it slumbers until such a time that the urge for development awakens. Then it is expelled again as a fresh spirit seed into a new material creation for his development.Eternal damnation is the disintegration of the acquired spiritual personality. With such a deed, the most painful thing that can happen to a spirit that have become self conscious, the spirit cease to exist as person. It has no name and have being erased from the book of life (the laws of God). Salvation or damnation lies within man and it is his free will that decides what is in stock for him or her. Happily though, after several painful experiences spanning millions of earth years in many planes of creation including the earth, many a spirit develop in the sense of the laws of God and find there way back to heaven, the kingdom of God as a copy of the image of God. Man is solely responsible for his destiny. Yes, there is destiny but it man that makes his destiny. The laws of God only returns to each person what he has sown in multiples. As one prophet of God once said "As men stir their little ship of life, so will it glide through the water of life". You sow wind, you reap whirlwind. You sow a corn and you reap corn cobs with hundreds of grain per corn. Best Wishes.

Jenwitemi: I only gave my own viewpoint on the subject. I don't give a hoot about the christian's/biblical meaning because that viewpoint is somebody else's and not mine. Nothing wrong with that, dude. Everyone is entitled to their own viewpoints and that includes those of the guys who wrote the biblical texts.

And your viewpoints remain what they are, NONSENSE.

Image123:
And your viewpoints remain what they are, NONSENSE.

is that all you can argue?
typical xtians resorting to insults when beaten.

And how would you know this? Were you living their lives with them? Such Evil people could have suffered the consequences of their evil deeds before their death. You have no way of ever knowing. Evil people do suffer alone, you know.

tbaba1234:

There are many evil people that have died 'peacefully' in their sleep. They do not face the consequence of their action on earth.

.............

jagunlabi: And how would you know this? Were you living their lives with them? Such Evil people could have suffered the consequences of their evil deeds before their death. You have no way of ever knowing. Evil people do suffer alone, you know.

They do not necessary pay the consequences of their sins.... Hitler killed millions of people and took his life when he wanted to. He never suffered the consequences of his actions.

There are crimes that never get solved and the criminals go on and never face the consequences of their actions.

How would you know this? Were you with him the whole time, post-WW2? How do you know he did not suffer?

tbaba1234:

They do not necessary pay the consequences of their sins.... Hitler killed millions of people and took his life when he wanted to. He never suffered the consequences of his actions.

There are crimes that never get solved and the criminals go on and never face the consequences of their actions.

jagunlabi: How would you know this? Were you with him the whole time, post-WW2? How do you know he did not suffer?

What kind of suffering is equivalent to killing millions of people in this world?

My God works in ways dat re mysterious to me.Not even the wisest of the wisest can understand the way he thinks. There are so many questions to ask him on dat day but i want u to know that we all have free will.if u decide to sleep all day witout goin out u'll be poor, bt if u choose to huslte,den u ave a chance to be rich.dats free will

Taiw: My God works in ways dat re mysterious to me.Not even the wisest of the wisest can understand the way he thinks. There are so many questions to ask him on dat day but i want u to know that we all have free will.if u decide to sleep all day witout goin out u'll be poor, bt if u choose to huslte,den u ave a chance to be rich.dats free will

hahaha.
i laff in latin
wayo

Let the universe decide that. That is Hitler's worry and his alone.

tbaba1234:

What kind of suffering is equivalent to killing millions of people in this world?

what is the universe? How does the universe decide that? The universe is a finite entity. There is no absolute justice in this world. Final justice from an everlasting creator makes a lot more sense.

Jenwitemi: Let the universe decide that. That is Hitler's worry and his alone.

Who is the universe, was i right to mention that this guy's viewpoint is nonsense.